Discogs

Salutaurs wrote:

http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/192830

Sorry I need again your help with this artist again:
http://www.discogs.com/artist/Brainstorm+(6)
http://www.discogs.com/artist/Pr%C4%81ta+V%C4%93tra

As I explained again It's Brainstorms is ANV because of translation, and RSG allows that.

They can't be Aliases in totally 100000% by definition, there can be only discussion about PAN.

Hope Raimonds Pauls won't do the same.

Thanks in advance.

SchusterBach wrote:

Very simple -> 2.5.3. ANVs should not be used if the artist uses the name to differentiate their work, in this case an Alias is more appropriate

Prāta Vētra = Home marked
Brainstorm = International

And -> 17.4.1. The 'Alias' field is used to link different aliases of an artist. Aliases are other names the artist is 'Also Known As'. Use this field only if the artist (meaning a group of members or an individual) is exactly the same, not if a part of ArtistOne is a part of Artist Two.

Also Brainstorm (6) was first in time

Salutaurs wrote:

It's subjective, because they use Brainstorm in home too. They don't differentiate their work. They credit the same compositions by both names and so on.
Aliases are used for different projects by the same artists, and this is not this case.

It's just translation like
http://www.discogs.com/artist/Gebr%C3%BCder+Grimm
or every Cyrillic artist.

Please cancel your votes before this discussion is over. If majority or RSG will prove that I'm wrong I'll change this mistake by myself.

z-music wrote:

They are more known as Brainstorm, even their first international single (song from Eurovision Song Contest) they have released as Brainstorm...

ANV isn't the right move here. it's translation not a language based difference.

Стинг for Sting ... it's still sound Sting even written in Russian ... and it's not translation of word "Sting" but if you'll translate Sting into any language, well for everyone who doesn't know this language, this will be completely different word!

So thanks for Latvian lesson anyway but let's leave Brainstorm (6) and Prāta Vētra separate:-)

Salutaurs wrote:

the discussion is about ANV and Alias. Popularity don't make Brainstorm as Alias it can only make it as PAN.

And OMG:



What else translation is if not language based difference?

There is no reason to separate if we don't separate
http://www.discogs.com/artist/Gebr%C3%BCder+Grimm

If we separate Brainstorm then why can't we do the same with Grimm Brothers?
then separate all translations

z-music wrote:

sorry dupe

z-music wrote:

Gebrüder Grimm
Brødrene Grimm
Brüder Grimm
Brothers Grimm, The
Brāļi Grimmi | Grimm
Grimm Brothers, The
Grimm Testvérek
Jacob & Wilhelm Grimm

yes seems Grimm translated into other languages looks and sounds the same:-))))

by the way ... where is written about discussing here something first before even start any mass update??? isn't RSG you are talking about? as far I remember you have just switched PAN without any single word here in forum

Salutaurs wrote:

Sorry discussion was after, ok my mistake, but decision was made that they are ANVs.

And by the way Testvérek sounds like Brothers. And anyway not phonetic differences make ANVs to Aliases, only PAN can be made. Sorry but your arguments are not based on RSG.




please read "language based differences (translations)"

There can't be any discussions about Aliases only about PANs. These votes that was made are against RSG.

SchusterBach wrote:

No, that's not correct. Only two was think it is a ANV in a very short discussion

An you forgot to read the rest

2.5.3. ANVs should not be used if the artist uses the name to differentiate their work, in this case an Alias is more appropriate

Prāta Vētra = Home marked
Brainstorm = International



It is not everything in the database there is correct,

Salutaurs wrote:

As I said they only partly and discussable differentiate their work, because they credit the same songs by both of names, so this argument is insufficient.

Probably most of the ANVs are used to differentiate the work in some way. Prodigy with The or without or the same with Sweet. In some period of time they decided to use this or that ANV to differentiate their work from the previous.

More Aliases are appropriate in situations like with Moby, when these projects are strictly differentiated.

If your argument is correct then we should separate t.A.T.u. in international (t.A.T.u.) and Russian (Т.А.Т.У.) by the same reason. This is totally the same situation as with t.A.T.u. (if we consider your argument).

We can't discussion this case without looking on examples already in the database. If you can find any situation where translations/popularity/market separates artists in Aliases, please show me. I can't find any.

Only thing I can find is that translations are ANS just like Cyrillic, Despite that both of them more or less are used to differentiate their work for commercial distribution reasons. If this type of differentiate is reason for Alias then you should go with the flag to separate hundreds if not thousands of ANVs made for this reason (probably 70% of all Cyrillic).

SchusterBach wrote:

No. If you look under Prāta Vētra all tracktitle are in Latvian language. If you look under Brainstorm all trackstitle are in english (Please remember to overlook all the errors you have made)




All trackstitle from Prodigy are in english, both with and without ANV, and that is not the case with Prāta Vētra vs Brainstorm

Just because you see information in the database, it is not the same these information is correct, because some of the rules has change

Salutaurs wrote:

They differentiate their work the same was as this artist:

http://www.discogs.com/%D0%A2%...E%D0%B9/master/92882
http://www.discogs.com/tATu-20...ng-Lane/master/92889

Why then there is no discussion to separate this artist too? I doubt if anyone be agree to do it.
This is the same situation with Brainstorm.
If you want to separate translation like Alias please give me any example that already exists in database. Why this case must be so different from similar that are submitted as ANVs.

RSG says to follow examples already in database. So I don't see anything that agrees with RSG in your arguments.

Please examples when translations is Aliases or at least this kind of differentiating work!!!!

Translation don't make Alias, there is no such point in RSG.

SchusterBach wrote:

Again. Just because you can find something in the DB, it not the same it is correct

And again
2.5.3. ANVs should not be used if the artist uses the name to differentiate their work, in this case an Alias is more appropriate

Prāta Vētra = Home marked
Brainstorm = International



Because we talking about Prāta Vētra vs Brainstorm



Yes there are -> 2.5.3. ANVs should not be used if the artist uses the name to differentiate their work, in this case an Alias is more appropriate

Salutaurs wrote:

I can find the same situation with example I gave before, and RSG says to follow examples as I did.

RSG should be equal for all similar situations, not in one you interpret in one way and in second in other.

This sample shows that translating song/album names don't make Alias despite differentiated works. They different market not work.




Then why only translation should be interpreted as differentiating?

Alias is used when artist are making totally different project, not just translating their works. Then all English songs released in Russian should make every artist doing that as Alias.

http://www.discogs.com/%D0%91%...0%B4/release/1964250
http://www.discogs.com/%D0%9C%...0%B5/release/1952516

Every example in database shows that translating song/album names don't make Alias. Why this case should be different?

seppuku wrote:

I completely agree. These are clearly ANVs of each other per the guidelines.

Kergillian wrote:

If a name is simply a translation of the artist's name in another language, it is an ANV. Period. it is the same name, just translated.

Just because some translations sound similar and some don't does not make them any more or less valid as ANVs.

Even the RSG specifically uses translations as an example of language-based differences:




*****





Please do not confuse translations with transliterations.

SchusterBach wrote:

Agree, but again, not evrything in the DB is correct, that why you can find a lot of errors in the DB

And if it is a anv, then will these rule apply

2.5.6. The Primary Artist Name should be the most relevant version of the Artists Name. For example, when the artist has a "recording name" it should be the Primary name, and the variations found in the releases fine print should be the ANV.

The primary artist name is Brainstorm, because
1. It was first in time
2. The most of the release right now is on Brainstorm (Also before you have made all the wrong updates)

But again

Prāta Vētra = Home marked
Brainstorm = International

So it is a alias

seppuku wrote:

A debate can be had over which variant is the most relevant Primary Name, but per the guideline quoted above, these cannot be aliases. There is no differentiation of work, just presentation/packaging/marketing.

Salutaurs wrote:

Now you are lastly starting to discuss about PAN.

1.I prefer the original name as PAN not translation, because they most of their life used it more.
Like: Grimm Brothers
http://www.discogs.com/artist/Gebr%C3%BCder+Grimm

2. Your argument about Alias again fails, because you don't look on examples, if this will be Alias then it will be the first such Alias in DB among hundreds if not thousands ANVs in the same situation.

3. If They different market, it doesn't mean that they different their work. Again translation don't make Alias. Read RSG, look the hundreds of examples. Probably every Orchestra and Chorus translated ANV then are wrong.

P.S. I doubt if these EI votes wasn't against RSG.

z-music wrote:

have I wrote "Стинг" is translation?

Kergillian wrote:

No, it is an ANV. The RSG clearly says that translations are among the criteria for an ANV. Therefore we go with the RSG, not your personal opinion.





My bad - sorry.

cvalda44 wrote:

An alias for different marketing ?? Oh dear.. I thought guidelines ask for different work :)
And as was told this is not in case. The same songs, just translated (and some of them even not). Listen to "Maybe" song from this album marketed under Prāta Vētra name :) T.a.t.u. was a good example. They do exactly the same: they may release Russian only albums and or have different editions in different areas.

So, No, Brainstorm is an ANV. The RSG clearly says that translations are among the criteria for an ANV. Prāta Vētra is better PAN at this moment.

Salutaurs wrote:

So can somebody revert these EI votes please, that probably are violating RSG?

P.S.




Thnx cvalda44, I had forgot about this fact :)

This album is in database under Prāta Vētra. Only Single seems to be released under ANV Brainstorm.

http://www.discogs.com/Pr%C4%8...olas/release/1858730

SchusterBach wrote:

Let get some fact on the table

Brianstorm is created 23. Sep 04
Prāta Vētra is created 21. jul 09
There is 25 release with Brainstorm
There is 4 release with Prāta Vētra

Why it is a alias and not a ANV -> 2.5.3. ANVs should not be used if the artist uses the name to differentiate their work, in this case an Alias is more appropriate

All release under brainstom are in english = One project
All release under Prāta Vētra are in Latvian = Another project

An so fare i can see, it is not the same releases, at all

on the other hand if it not a alias

2.5.6. The Primary Artist Name should be the most relevant version of the Artists Name. For example, when the artist has a "recording name" it should be the Primary name, and the variations found in the releases fine print should be the ANV.

The primary artist name is Brainstorm, because
1. It was first in time
2. The most of the release is on Brainstorm (Also before Salutaurs has made all the wrong updates)

Salutaurs wrote:

Then why in this release Maybe and Babynight are in English.
http://www.discogs.com/Pr%C4%8...olas/release/1858730

How they differentiate their work if the same song are credited by both of the names?
Stop repeating arguments that already have failed. Repeating don't make them stronger.



There is no point in RSG that the first added should be PAN. And what if first was a mistake as it happens in a lot of times.




Do I have to add all Latvian releases to beat this number to make you understand, because they are more?

And again your EI votes are against RSG.

P.S. It seems the same as with Raimonds Pauls, when someone don't want to understand situation and ignores RSG, or even worse, just making votes against RSG.

SchusterBach wrote:

From http://www.discogs.com/history?release=748958#latest

Yes it means the same. Brain=Prāta and Storm=Vētra. And they have the same songs credited to both names, in international releases under English, in home country under Latvian. But the most of the releases are released in Latvia, and they started to use English name only 11 years after they started to play, when they started in Eurovision and released English version of "Starp Divām Saulēm" (Among The Suns).

So Salutaurs, it is on project or is it two project


= I don't know what you a talking about

Salutaurs wrote:

This is the same project that started to use a translated ANV (parallely to original) as soon as they gained popularity internationally.

By the way imagine if in their European tours appears 2 projects, it would be strange, if in one show of the same tour they are one project but in second other.

For example imagine if this band starts to use Time Machine (English translation of their name) as their name.
http://www.discogs.com/artist/...BC%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8

P.S. Raimonds Pauls case
http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/197243

cvalda44 wrote:

As their official site facts page says "the band "BRAINSTORM (“PRĀTA VĒTRA”)" was formed in 1989 and released 9 albums in Latvian, 4 in English and 1 in Russian"



Translated lyrics do not constitute different project.

Also, Prata Vetra albums contain songs in English - exactly the same Brainstorm songs, so not "all".



First in time on Discogs ? Discogs has grown so far from that time and always correcting mistakes. I think Salutaurs is doing the right thing by setting the correct PAN right now, because Prāta Vētra has much more releases in real, although Discogs doesn't reflect that at the moment. Also, Brainstorm* as ANV of Prāta Vētra is easier to find and deal with than Brainstorm (6) with Prāta Vētra* ANV. Of course, until Salutaurs adds more Prāta Vētra releases, the PAN is discussable, but not the ANV vs alias thing. I don't get why you still defend alias - it's clearly against the GL.
Another biography link
To quote: "Brainstorm formed in Jelgava, Latvia, in 1989. The band's original name was Prata Vetra; Brainstorm is its English-language translation, adopted around the turn of the century, as the group's renown began to spread outside of Latvia."
And adopting an English ANV did not eliminate their original PAN. Most of releases still use Prāta Vētra or even both names. Check also URLs at their page: Myspace and Russian official site use Prata Vetra as address, Latvian official site use Brainstorm adress but lists both names mixed.

Kergillian wrote:

Exactly - which is why they would be in the same MR as well...

Salutaurs wrote:

Really, doesn't changing the lyrics (not only track titles) of the songs make release diferent?

http://www.discogs.com/Brainst...line/release/1299170
http://www.discogs.com/Pr%C4%8...olas/release/1858730

Should these releases have the same MR? It even seems that track times are different, despite that only lyrics are translated, it seems the music is adapted too.

cvalda44 wrote:

I have listened to beginnings of few tracks - the music sounds the same but some tracks have different time, that means they edited the music.
I'm not sure but looks like they have different types of English albums. Sometimes an English album have a sister album in Latvia, but sometimes it's comprised of melodies from two Latvian albums. Such releases cannot be in the same MR. And I would not force sister albums into the MR as well. At least at this moment. That would be too much for SchusterBach :) There's need to have more releases in DB first and then you may decide. Btw, T.a.t.u. sister albums: Тату* - 200 По Встречной and t.A.T.u. - 200 Km/H In The Wrong Lane have different MRs ;) But Icelandic versions of this album Sugarcubes, The - Here Today, Tomorrow Next Week! are in the same MR as English versions - but difference is only in lyrics, title and some instrumental backgrounds. Also the band name is translated :) But the track titles and order are the same. Where is the border line for sister albums to be eligible for the same MR ?

Salutaurs wrote:

For example how this release can be voted correct if there is even more mistakes than before?

http://www.discogs.com/history?release=1224010#latest

I don't understand the reason of voting then, is it to improve database or to show power?

seppuku wrote:

I just voted EI on that, it is completely incorrect. More EI votes will be needed to reverse the edit, though.

seppuku wrote:

As stated, it is ONE PROJECT ONLY.

Salutaurs wrote:

It seems that there will be war. It's so pity:
http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/175361
Just vote and then maybe (sometimes not even maybe) think.

loukash wrote:

--> http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/192830
Well, that discussion was open to anyone for 90 days, and no one else objected that a translation is not acceptable as an ANV. I'd understand the result of the discussion as "accepted", in my very humble opinion.

But as squonk57 pointed out:


… which makes sense for Discogs, having English as the main language.

And as we just recently agreed here: http://www.discogs.com/help/fo...topic/200145#2501065
… you can use "Prāta Vētra" as the Real Name for Brainstorm (6).

loukash wrote:

For instance:
Czechoslovak Radio Dance Orchestra is a great example to show the difference between language based ANVs and actual Aliases.

All of the ANVs show the same subject, the varying spelling only displays inconsequently applied translations and abbreviations of the official orchestra name as listed in the Real Name "Taneční orchestr Československého rozhlasu". (After all, the responsible executives then couldn't possibly anticipate the "dramas" such a case could be causing in the pathetic little universe called "Discogs"… ;)
Anyway, while adding more and more releases, I kept this most often used English translation as PAN, because this is the name which most non-Czech speaking submitters may be familiar with (while Czech natives would usually refer to the orchestra simply as "TOČR"…)

The Aliases, however, are orchestra names used for different recordings deliberately, in order to distinguish the music from the work they were recording as Czechoslovak Radio Dance Orchestra, i.e. pop material, as opposed to the jazz stuff by Czechoslovak Radio Jazz Orchestra, for example. The personnel was still identical though, apart from usual fluctuations common with big bands.
(Interestingly, the alias Orchestr Karla Krautgartnera (2) actually joined both subjects to one entity for a short while in 1967-1968, but it has been dropped by the censors after Krautgartner's emigration in 1968, "splitting" the orchestra back into two virtual subjects as before.)

Hope that helps…

Salutaurs wrote:

It seems quite different for Orchestras and Chorus. Or if we look at this through Orchestra/Chorus prism, shouldn't then PANs be the most used but most recognizable internationally (read English version of name)?

And why then there are Cyrillic PANs?

And what about this?
http://www.discogs.com/artist/Gebr%C3%BCder+Grimm

Then it should be stated in RSG that where it is possible use English version (if there is such) as PAN. Because in this case it's disputable, is more relevant PAN the most used (more releases) or most recognizable internationally.

P.S.



Anyway, I'm not against Brainstorm as PAN, but it should be argued with RSG. And this Alias should be removed.

loukash wrote:

There are enough examples of groups, where the name translations qualify being an ANV:
Blue Effect, The
Flamingo (6) - with an alias Ostravský Rozhlasový Orchestr though. As the former bass player and leader of the latter once explained to me, they always used Flamingo (6) (or later its Czech equivalent) for stuff they really liked as musicians, and Ostravský Rozhlasový Orchestr for music they had to record as being employees of the Czechoslovak Radio Ostrava…

And here another example where it is OK having an Alias though, despite the name actually being a translation as well:
Cardinals, The (4) vs. Kardinálové
Because the group basically "reinvented" itself with the (forced) name change, including the lineup and genre.

Kergillian wrote:

Well, if there are major differences then it should be considered for a separate MR.

But no, translated lyrics do not constitute a reason for a different MR - if the songs are simply in another language, then it should be the same MR.

Also, durations are not alone such a reason, either. An album with the exact same tracklisting, but slight variations on the songs, should be the same MR, afaik - much as remix versions of singles are...unless I am wrong

loukash wrote:

I'm not so sure about it.
I'm hesitating to put Flamingo (6) - Flamingo and Flamingo Group, The* feat. Marie Rottrová & Petr Němec - This Is Our Soul into the same MR, although four tracks are even identical (two instrumentals and two in English on both).
Or Dežo Ursiny, Ivan Štrpka, Burčiak - Modrý Vrch and Dežo Ursiny - The Blue Hill. The latter is in fact quite remixed, and despite the same (translated) title, to me it sounds almost like a different album.

Kergillian wrote:

I'm not sure about durations and remixed versions on full length albums - in theory, if the tracklisting is otherwise identical, they should be in the same MR, but that's a grey area.

But based on prior discussions, it seems to me that nik said more than once that releases with songs that are the same but sung in a different language qualify for the same MR (ABBA is an example of a group that did that more than once)

Salutaurs wrote:

I just want to figure out which point is more relevant for making PAN:
1. most used (more releases)
2. most recognizable internationally (read English version)


1st seems more relevant for Groups/Artists (for example Cyrillic)
2nd seems more relevant for Orchestras/Chorus
That's how it is in DB, most of the examples. Of course we can find contrariwise examples, but it seems that majority is as I pointed out.

Salutaurs wrote:

sorry dupe

Kergillian wrote:

I think that we just need to use common sense.

The general consensus was the most commonly used name should be the PAN in most cases, even if it's a foreign language or alphabet. If they are close in number, default to the English version.

However, there are always exceptions. With valid external proof, for example, we should be able to select a different PAN (i.e. if the artist's site and all artist or label info has an alternate name).

And also, we sometimes need to choose an ANV to properly incorporate ANVs or to eliminate potential confusion.

cvalda44 wrote:

At this moment, as per current number of releases on Discogs, Brainstorm (6) is the most relevant PAN.
But if you think about the future and check their complete discography, Prāta Vētra seems to be the proper PAN: they have 4 Brainstorm albums against 10 albums and 3 DVDs as Prāta Vētra. Recently they released another Prāta Vētra album but did not release corresponding Brainstorm album. So..
Another reason Prāta Vētra as PAN may be better (you may say this is stupid reason :) - it allows to avoid this irritating suffix number after band name. Searching for Brainstorm and seeing 23 different Brainstorms in database makes me sick. Hopefully using Prāta Vētra as PAN could make searching a little bit easier.

Salutaurs wrote:

It's nice to discuss, but the decision must be done and it must be established. My action is over because I got EI votes twice. Despite that some of them are definitely against RSG, for example http://www.discogs.com/history?release=1224010#latest
This user is quite infest, if he not only declined Prāta Vētra as Alias but removed Braithouse from BTH ANVs without any logical reason. And mixed Brainstorm (6) with Branstorm It seems he like to split everything.

Now there is only 2 users for Alias
Can't count how many are for Brainstorm (6) as PAN or ANV.

PAN argumens as I see is:




Their marketing uses more Brainstorm since they want to be more recognizables internationally.

ANV arguments:




So the adjudication is...

cvalda44 wrote:

I would prefer the final adjudication to be done by band specialist/fan and experienced discogs user. Do we have such a person ? I think you have promised to add more Prāta Vētra albums ? So add them first and the PAN will not be in question, if you prefer this PAN. I can do all necessary changes to ANVs myself then, but add these albums first. Btw, my friend has Prāta Vētra DVD, i can borrow it to submit.

loukash wrote:

Yet another one who's got his "license to vote" too early…? :/
(check out some similar "Votemeisters" links here: http://www.discogs.com/help/fo...75361?page=5#2501506 ff.)


OK, that may also depend on the actual total amount of releases. If you can say that "there are several releases under the English name" (in contrast to "a few" or even just one or two), then an English PAN may make more sense.

But another "pro-English" argument may be the Latvian spelling "Prāta Vētra". How many non-Latvians are able to type ā and ē out of the blue? (I wouldn't possibly even remember which diacritics to use :)

Not to speak of our "oh-so-smart" Discogs Search:
http://www.discogs.com/search?...&type=all&btn=Search
vs.
http://www.discogs.com/search?...&type=all&btn=Search

cvalda44 wrote:

Why non-Latvians should type Prāta Vētra ? :) They will type Prata Vetra. I have just helped the discogs engine a bit ;)
Most likely non-Latvians will type Brainstorm. They will get these results:

Brainstorm (artist) (Electronic, Hip Hop, Rock, Pop, Jazz, Reggae, Funk
Brainstorm (2) (artist) (Electronic)
Brainstorm (3) (artist) (Electronic, Hip Hop)
Brainstorm (4) (artist) (Electronic)
Brainstorm (5) (artist) (Electronic, Funk / Soul, Hip Hop, Pop, Stage
Brainstorm (6) (artist) (Electronic, Rock, Hip Hop, Pop, Folk, World
Brainstorm (7) (artist) (Electronic) ...............
Brainstorm (23) (artist)
Brainstorm* (artist name variation of Brainstorm Crew)
Brainstorm* (artist name variation of DJ Brainstorm)
Brainstorm* (artist name variation of Prāta Vētra)

Would you prefer to see the last line or jump between those 23 anonymous Brainstorms :) ?

English PAN makes more sense if they will really switch to Brainstorm name, instead of occasional releases. But I don't know their plans... :)

nik wrote:

ANV is appropriate here, this is decided.

Releases with translated lyrics should be part of the same Master Release.

Choosing a Primary Name is a pain in the neck with this example. It's not helped by the fact that the band haven't just released some items with their band name translated, but seem to want to present themselves under both names, depending on the country they are addressing:

http://www.brainstorm.lv/?lang...name=main&view=songs
http://www.brainstorm.lv/?lang...name=main&view=songs
http://www.brainstorm.lv/?lang...name=main&view=songs

Somewhat telling on all pages is they list the name as BRAINSTORM ("PRĀTA VĒTRA"), not PRĀTA VĒTRA ("BRAINSTORM")

There doesn't seem to be a clear cut resolution to this, and the bands usage is ambiguous at best, but given there are many more releases at the moment under Brainstorm, and even the official site has Brainstorm as the main name, I'd recommend using Brainstorm as the PAN.

cvalda44 wrote:

The issue is finally resolved. Thank you nik !! This thread has really needed your opinion.
Now, Salutaurs can update all Brainstorm entries with ANV (not alias!), giving the link to this thread for proof. I will be happy to give him C or C&C votes, and hope everyone will do the same, cos he is clearly deserves to gain the voting rights; unlike certain "too early licensed" voters, Salutaurs already shows deep knowledge of discogs principles. Now the PAN for the band is Brainstorm (6) and until they will not start to release their international albums under Prāta Vētra name this is their PAN - end of question.