• electrostatic over 10 years ago

    Hello,

    I have been seeing a lot of pages being created for Japanese sample cds for the same releases that have already been submitted. When I say SAMPLE CD, I do not mean a promo cd that was manufactured for promotional use only. I am talking about cds that are essentially the EXACT RETAIL release, except their is a SAMPLE USE ONLY sticker attacked to the obi strip, or back insert (usually over the barcode), and there will also be sample text on the inner ring of the disc. Other than these 2 differences, it is the SAME release.

    To me, this is no different than an american CD that was used for promotion, and has a promo hole punch through the barcode. I do not feel these deserve their own submission pages.

    What do you think?

    Here are some examples I have found with BJORK:
    http://www.discogs.com/release/1374726
    http://www.discogs.com/release/1320363

    http://www.discogs.com/release/1357691
    http://www.discogs.com/release/1321031

    http://www.discogs.com/release/661912
    http://www.discogs.com/release/1320865

    There are lots more that the same person submitted.

    Also - it seems they are calling them "SAMPLER" in the format field. I though the definition of SAMPLER was more like an album sampler (like a 4 - 5 song sampler of a full length album, or a label sampler with a bunch of songs from different artists). All of these are SINGLES, and the "SAMPLER" is just the same release with a sample sticker slapped on there.

    Just wanted to get some opinions on this.

    Thanks!
  • _jules over 10 years ago

    Sampler is definetely wrong here - those are promos / loaned samples / free samples - samplers are something else entirely in discogs lingo

    as for allowing them as separate entries - as long as the Sample / Promo / Whatever text is "professionaly" printed on the disc they are ok

    the submission guidelines regarding unique releases say:

    "Items such as cut outs (where a normal release has a section of the sleeve cut, denoting a price cut item), items that have otherwise been marked or altered after release, differences in releases with hand-made artwork that are part of the same edition, and individually numbered items on otherwise identical copies will not be allowed as unique releases."

    i reckon this printed text on the disc clear strips are added during the manufacturing process not "after release" and thus allows for a separate entry
  • electrostatic over 10 years ago

    Thanks for the reply.

    I agree with what you say about Sampler.

    For the unique release, I think the fact that it was/wasn't marked or altered after release is debatable. I have many of these Japanese sample cds myself...and the disc itself is the exact same disc as the retail release. The text on the middle ring looks to me like something that was "stamped" on after production. I believe they are manufactured with all of the retail cds, and they take a certain number of them and stamp the center ring with the sample text (and put a sticker on the insert or obi strip). That doesn't seem like a unique release to me.

    To me this would also be the same as an american release that has a sample sticker attached to the insert, but everything else was the same. If the sticker was placed on during manufacturing, would this be able to have it's own release?

    I am not arguing...just trying to clarify. You could be correct, I would just like to make sure for my sake (and also my future submissions).

    Thanks again for the great response.

  • deejsasqui over 10 years ago

    This was discussed in the mod forum (and apparently elsewhere) about 10 months back.

    I can't display Japanese text on my computer, but this is what was listed in the mod forum:

    非売品: "article not for sale" - SAMPLE might well be something of an "engrish" translation. They should be marked as Promo instead of Sampler.
  • meckah over 10 years ago

    deejsasqui
    They should be marked as Promo instead of Sampler.


    I think they shouldn't be there at all. They are normal retail versions, with a promo sticker. That means the actuall item is a retail item, and not a specific promo pressing. They have the same serial and only a promo sticker. A promo usually have its own serial and diffrent artwork (although just slightly diffrent sometimes, with just some extra "promo" text added).

    But if they should be included (I strongly disagree with that) then Promo is the correct labeling, not sampler.

    The submission guidelines (promo section) say: "Retail releases with gold stamped covers and/or CDs are to be considered the same as retail", this should include the above cds with stickers.
  • SmotheredHope over 10 years ago

    SmotheredHope edited over 10 years ago
    meckah
    I think they shouldn't be there at all. They are normal retail versions, with a promo sticker.


    No no no, many of them also have either "sample not for sale" printed on the actual CD, and I have hundreds of Japanese so-called "sample" 7" singles (engrish for promo as deejasqui mentioned) with a small "box" added on the label where it says "sample only not for sale" in Japanese characters, sometimes with the commercial release date in it. This is their way of releasing promos.

    It is easier to see the differencies if you understand Japanese - I have a friend who speaks Japanese and he has explained what it says on the CDs and 7"/12"-singles for me.

    But sure, if the ONLY difference is a sticker (but you'd have to make sure by translating everything on the CD label etc) it imposes the question of wheter or not they should be added. It's sort of equal to the US gold stamped promos.

    Those that should be included (the better part in my opinion based on the above) should have promo added to format, since "sample" is kind of their "version" of promo.
  • electrostatic over 10 years ago

    I agree with Meckah 100%.
    That was my feeling when asking the question. Your comparison to Gold Stamped cds is a great one, because that's just what these seem like to me. Even with the SAMPLE text on the center of the disc, it is still the retail release.

    Anyone else have any thoughts?

    I finally earned to privilege to vote, and these Japanese sample cds are something that I have wondered about. I would love to see them removed as duplicates, but if they just need to be changed from SAMPLE to PROMO, I can accept that.

    Thanks!
  • SmotheredHope over 10 years ago

    SmotheredHope edited over 10 years ago
    electrostatic
    Anyone else have any thoughts?


    See my reply above - if they have the sample text etc printed on the CD label they should NOT be removed, please also be fully aware of that you might not notice the difference if you don't understand Japanese characters! It's a unique release if it has promo (=sample) stated on the CD.

    If it's just the sticker then it's a different issue.

    Someone who understands Japanese and has voting rights should check these sort of things out I think.

  • electrostatic over 10 years ago

    The sample text is almost always on the center clear ring, and this is something that does not look like was part of the regular manufacturing. It looks like it was pressed/stamped/printed on there AFTER. It is not part of the disc's regular "artwork".

    I have also seen some that either have the text stamped on the disc (as if a rubber ink stamp was used), and I have also seen small stickers placed on the disc with the Japanese "Sample/promo" text.
    But, for all of these...it is not part of the Discs regular text. It is always something added to the disc later.
  • electrostatic over 10 years ago

    SmotheredHope
    please also be fully aware of that you might not notice the difference if you don't understand Japanese characters!


    It is not really a matter of what the text says. I know the text says that it is for sample/promotional use (A Japanese speaking person has told me that before). The question is really about whether these should be unique releases just because promotional Japanese text was put on the disc after it was manufactured, and a sample sticker was put on the obi or insert.

    To me this is just like a gold stamped promo.

    But, I would never request it be removed as a duplicate unless this was decided and crystal clear. The only thing that seems clear at this point is the fact that the format should not be SAMPLER.
  • deejsasqui over 10 years ago

    SmotheredHope
    ... a small "box" added on the label where it says "sample only not for sale" in Japanese, sometimes with the release date added to it.

    If there is indeed some altered artwork on the release, I can see these being separate items. But the three Bjork examples above appear to have (what I can recognize as) the promo notes included as stickers or stamps applied after the initial pressing, similar to the gold stamping put on some major label promo covers and CDs, or the more common barcode alterations.

    I found a reference to an English "sample" stamps on some Zappa records - apparently Sample isn't Engrish, it's also an older term used by English-speaking labels.
  • meckah over 10 years ago

    electrostatic
    It looks like it was pressed/stamped/printed on there AFTER. It is not part of the disc's regular "artwork".


    Exactly. It is a retail item with some extra promo stuff on it.

    "Retail releases with gold stamped covers and/or CDs are to be considered the same as retail, as should retail releases with cut spines, marked or cut barcodes, or other such defacement. "

    Rules mentiones goldstamped cds, while this isn't in gold, it is the same thing.
  • SmotheredHope over 10 years ago

    SmotheredHope edited over 10 years ago
    I haven't checked the Björk CDs but was merely addressing the issue in general.

    Here's an example of what I mean for comparison (Depeche Mode items as usual since that's what I collect the most):

    "Stripped" 7" Commercial issue: http://depmod.com/images/b1582_a.jpg

    "Stripped" 7" "Sample" (promo) issue:
    http://depmod.com/images/b1512_a.jpg

    Note the characters under the timing, it gives the commercial release date along with "sample only not for sale" (or something similar).

    electrostatic
    I know the text says that it is for sample/promotional use (A Japanese speaking person has told me that before). The question is really about whether these should be unique releases just because promotional Japanese text was put on the disc after it was manufactured, and a sample sticker was put on the obi or insert.

    To me this is just like a gold stamped promo.


    Wheter or not it was put on the disc after it was manufactured is really the key issue here I think. On the examples of the 7" given above it is part of the label and was added before it was manufactured (I hope it is clear enough on the images, it was the only ones of the same release (commercial/promo) I could find while doing a quick browse).

    I also have a few Japanese sample 7"-singles where the same promo "box field" with release date has been stamped on the label - those does not qualify as unique.

    Unfortunately I can't find any CD examples of the same releases (commercial/sample) for comparison.

    Wheter or not the "sample text" was put there during the manufacturing process or not can be hard to determine though - not always as easy as with the US gold stamped promos.

  • SmotheredHope over 10 years ago

    electrostatic
    The only thing that seems clear at this point is the fact that the format should not be SAMPLER.


    Definately not. :)
  • electrostatic over 10 years ago

    I can see how the those DM 7" inches could go either way. The printing seems to be part of labels. My question/concern was Japanese CDs (not vinyl)...and more specifically the ones exactly like the BJORK examples I gave - where the only difference between the actual retail release and these is a sample sticker on the packaging, and some sample text pressed on the clear center ring of the disc.

    The person that submitted these BJORK cds actually uploaded LOTS of pictures, so you can really see exactly what I am talking about.

    Here are the sample/promo version pictures -

    http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=1320363
    http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=1321031
    http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=1320865

    I hope there can be some decision made. I really think these are duplicates, and these just make it more difficult to search DISCOGS by catalog number, because you are always going to get 2 results for these releases (and almost every other Japanese BJORK CD release).
  • SmotheredHope over 10 years ago

    SmotheredHope edited over 10 years ago
    electrostatic
    My question/concern was Japanese CDs (not vinyl)...


    Yeah, but in the end it's the very same issue/discussion - doesn't matter what format it is. The catalog number in my 7" example is also the same (commercial vs sample/promo).

    electrostatic
    The person that submitted these BJORK cds actually uploaded LOTS of pictures, so you can really see exactly what I am talking about.


    That's what I was looking for - thanks. Most Japanese sample (promo) CDs looks like that, not just those Björk ones. It's the most common way of making promos in Japan.

    Well, I would say that the "sample" (+ Jap chars) text was added during the manufacturing process - it's not something that's stamped after it's been made. If it was just a sticker on the OBI it would have been an easier call...

    electrostatic
    I hope there can be some decision made.


    As far as I'm concerned they are unique entries, but it could be argued about. If a decision is made that they should not be included one must have in mind that very few Japanese promos can ever be added to Discogs since that's the most common way of doing promos over there. It's not just about those Björk CDs. :-)

    There will probably always be arguments for or against stuff like this since users differ in certain aspects when it comes to how they use the site - there are some who don't even want to list anything at all but commercial releases, and at the other end of the spectre there's the hardcore completist collector of a certain artist who wants to know about every single detail that makes releases different from one another.

  • SmotheredHope over 10 years ago


    deejsasqui
    But the three Bjork examples above appear to have (what I can recognize as) the promo notes included as stickers or stamps applied after the initial pressing


    Check this one - http://www.discogs.com/image/R-1320363-1209411130.jpeg

    When looking at a disc like that IRL, the "Sample" stuff in the inner ring does not appear to have been added after the manufacturing process, IMO.

  • electrostatic over 10 years ago

    SmotheredHope
    Well, I would say that the "sample" (+ Jap chars) text was added during the manufacturing process - it's not something that's stamped after it's been made.


    This is the only part I am not so sure about. To me the text on the ring of the cd is no different than the gold promotional stamp on the front of a U.S. CD Cover. It could be argued that the gold stamps are placed on the cover "during the manufacturing process". But I think it is done later, and so is the text on the center of the Japanese discs. The disc is the retail disc. It is not a different pressing. It just has text stamped on it after, just like the gold stamped covers for some USA promo cds.

    But I guess the only to know for sure is to ask someone that works for a Japanese record label. ;)
  • dog_green_sector over 10 years ago

    yes
  • SmotheredHope over 10 years ago

    electrostatic
    To me the text on the ring of the cd is no different than the gold promotional stamp on the front of a U.S. CD Cover. It could be argued that the gold stamps are placed on the cover "during the manufacturing process". But I think it is done later, and so is the text on the center of the Japanese discs.

    electrostatic
    But I guess the only to know for sure is to ask someone that works for a Japanese record label. ;)


    Probably, and unfortunately, yes. :)

  • electrostatic over 10 years ago

    heh,heh. ;)

    Well, at least I got a definitive answer on the SAMPLE format. haha.

    Thank you very much for all of the replies and discussion on this!
  • fleshmeatdoll over 10 years ago

    i saw these bjork updates and commented on one of them with reference to the gold stamp rule in the rsg, asking the submitter to remove the sample tag on this and all his other updates.

    i cannot remember where because there is no function in discogs that would let me track back my comments. seeing how this remains a problem i guess my advice/ voting was ignored. oh well. out of sight out of mind.

    anyways, though the rsg states that these should be not unique this rule should be debated because, yes, they are identical to the retail release, except for the gold stamp on the cd and sticker.

    for me who buys mostly used cds in japan i come across these quite often as they are usually the copies video rental places throw out for low budget. personally a gold stamped cd to me means a drop in value and someone selling such a copy under the retail version disguise without mentioning the irreversible stamp would clearly abuse my trust.

    also, there are many copies for any release around seeing the large number of renal places in tokyo in example, certainly more than some of the limited items that are found here in discogs, so why not allow them as separate items and safe the sellers the extra time of explaining that his item is the retail version but not really.
  • _jules over 10 years ago

    I'm for allowing them as separate entries as well - as far as i understand it the bottom line of the release submission guidelines re. promos / cut-outs and gold stamps is to prevent "home-made" promos where anyone could punch a hole in their retail copy barcode and call them a promo - those promos are released as such with sticker and/or add'l artwork identifying marks and identifying / professional marks on the disc themselves
    identifying them as separate items in the database serves a purpose on a collector / seller / buyer point of view and so they should be allowed in
  • Staff 3.1k

    nik over 10 years ago

    I am for letting them in as well. The submitter has made good submissions that allow these releases to be identified as unique.

    It should be noted the guidelines say "items that have otherwise been marked or altered after release" - not after manufacture. http://www.discogs.com/help/submission-guidelines-general-rules.html#Unique_Releases - this was intended to stop 'cut out' type items from being submitted as unique.

    It is important that the guidelines are seen as a little bit flexible (otherwise, they would be called rules). To a certain extent, they must be driven by peoples use of the database just as much as they drive the use of the database. If someone is making well presented submissions that identify unique releases, the default presumption should be they are valid and should stay in the database, unless there is a very good reason for them to be removed or (at some point) merged.

    Also, the Discogs definition of 'Sampler' - In English, "sampler" has a different meaning from 'Compilation', a sampler is a free or low-priced preview of a larger release(s). Although in other languages the two words may mean the same thing, in Discogs they should not be confused. - maybe this needs better defined?
  • cvalda44 over 10 years ago

    Dear electrostatic,
    Please do not fight against my collection.
    As it was told before, this is the way Japan issues its sample promos. You will not find other more promoish looking promos by Bjork in Japan. In the US, yes there are gold stamped promos as well as "real promos", but in Japan only these are the promos.
    And the text is "professionaly" printed on CD and not always in clear area like in your examples.

    Dear fleshmeatdoll,
    I did not ignore your advise. You can read my reply here:
    http://www.discogs.com/release/1321077

    Thanks to everyone for discussing this. I will change the format from "sampler" to "promo".
  • SeRKeT over 10 years ago

    i know this is a slightly different release to the above mentioned but it does clarify the fact that samplers are usually promotional items
    http://www.discogs.com/release/31770
    two of these came out as samplers to a compilation and although im not a bjork fan and do not own any japanese cds i can verify that all the vinyl samplers i own are promotional items
  • deejsasqui over 10 years ago

    nik
    "items that have otherwise been marked or altered after release" - not after manufacture. this was intended to stop 'cut out' type items from being submitted as unique


    What do you consider "release"? At the college radio station where I've volunteered for a few years, over half of the CDs we get appear to be retail copies that have been marked as promo, usually with a hole in the barcode or a black pen mark through the barcode, sometimes with "Promo" written on the CD itself. Sometimes they come shrink-wrapped, sometimes not. But how can we tell if this defacement was done by a promoter or was sent to them from the label?

    In short: if we allow "professional looking" Promo marks to indicate a separate item, where is the line between professional and not?

    Perhaps we could have two types of promos: Promo pressings and Retail Promos? I'm sure there's a simpler name for them, but I can't think of one at the moment.
  • SeRKeT over 10 years ago


    deejsasqui
    Perhaps we could have two types of promos: Promo pressings and Retail Promos? I'm sure there's a simpler name for them, but I can't think of one at the moment.


    the link i posted in my above comment came out the same time as the LP it was a sampler for, i think the LP was pressed and they decided to press up a few samplers to give to DJ's , these copies i would say fit within the ''Retail promo'' that you mentioned , here's why.. some of the stuff you mention at the college station may have been released in the same way ie: Retail release already pressed then a few are given out as freebies
    whatever the case your point is valid , there IS more than 1 kind of promo as you say and those should be labeled in a way we can distinguish the two
  • electrostatic over 10 years ago

    Thanks for the reply nik. I understand what you are saying, and see the reasons for keeping them. And yes, that person does make excellent submissions, and the pictures are great, too.

    cvalda44 - I am not fighting against your collection. haha. I was merely asking a question about something I felt was not correct (and I can see from some of the replies on this thread, I was not the only one). If I was fighting, I would have voted against, or tried to get it removed without even asking anyone's opinion.

    Perhaps I was thinking the purpose of this site not JUST a place for people to list their collections, but as the ultimate discography site with the most accurate information about releases possible (and not cluttered up with duplicates). I know there are different levels of collectors out there. You definitely fall under the "hard core" collector category when it comes to bjork. I realize hard core collectors want every variation of every release by their favorite artists. Nine Inch Nails fans are the same. Just look at the nincollector site. Some of the slight variations are ridiculous. I would just hate to see this site turn into something where every little variation has it's own page, and if you search for a catalog number, you get 5 - 10 results for the exact same release. Luckily, things like hole punches, deletions cuts and gold stamps are not allowed, so that is good.

    Thanks again for all the replies. So I guess the final judgement is that:

    YES - these Japanese "Loaned/Sample/Promo" cds DO deserve their own submission pages.

    and

    NO - they should not be SAMPLERS in the format field. They should be listed as PROMO

    Thanks everyone.
  • deejsasqui over 10 years ago

    Wording idea:
    Retail Promo = retail copies marked by some source as a Promo-only copy (or for DJ use only, Sample, Not For Sale, etc).

    Promo Edition = unique artwork / labels, lacking barcode or other retail details. Vinyl can have the same run-out etchings, but the artwork must be unique in whole, not just altered.
  • electrostatic over 10 years ago

    i like that idea
  • SeRKeT over 10 years ago


    deejsasqui
    Wording idea:


    your idea explains this well and we need this as there are plenty of releases that are Retail Promos
    heres another for example :)

    http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=785333
  • cvalda44 over 10 years ago

    electrostatic, thanks for your reply :)
    I do not find it dissapointing to get 5 results for the same cat.no. For example, an album can be released in different countries by different labels (sublabels), but with the SAME cat.no.! So, this is normal.

    But if you want to separate promos and retail promos, it
    would be better to leave unique artwork promos just with word "Promo", as it on Discogs, not "Promo Edition". But for retail promos add new entry "Retail Promo" or something )
  • electrostatic over 10 years ago

    cvalda44
    electrostatic, thanks for your reply :)


    No problem. I really didn't want you to think I was fighting your collection. I am an obsessive collector myself. I understand. :)

    cvalda44
    I do not find it dissapointing to get 5 results for the same cat.no. For example, an album can be released in different countries by different labels (sublabels), but with the SAME cat.no.! So, this is normal.


    That is fine for releases in different countries (that share the same catalog number). My issue is when it is the same country, and the exact same release. These Japanese promos are the same country, same disc, same insert, same obi...it is the same release in my opinion. PLUS, I don't think Japanese releases ever share the same catalog number as other countries. They are usually on a different label in Japan. The Bjork CDs are on Polydor K.K. in Japan, and have catalog numbers that are unique to Japan. You will only find the Japanese releases when searching for those catalog numbers.

    But all this doesn't matter, since it has already been decided that these promos can have their own submissions. heh, heh. Just had to put my 2cents back in. ;)

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