• Diognes_The_Fox over 11 years ago

    I got a record. It's a stock copy with a sticker on the jacket that's unique to the release in order to mark it promo, but without it would be a stock copy. Kinda like a timing strip...

    Actually, what I'm asking, now that I think about it, is, how do we submit stock copies with timimg strip stickers on the front cover that denote it as a promo copy?
  • Escapist over 11 years ago

    Stock is stock regardless of what's put on it.
  • Staff 3.4k

    nik over 11 years ago

    http://www.discogs.com/help/submission-guidelines-release-format.html#White_Labels_Promos_And_Test_Pressings

    6.12.2. ...Retail releases with stamped, stickered, or similarly altered covers and/or CDs are to be considered the same as retail...
  • maurydj over 11 years ago

    Hi
    Please:

    in Italy have been printed many discs 7 inches. in the cover is printed: " versione speciale per juke box, vietata la vendita ".
    These releases are considered promo versions? and, if you add in the format section, the voice promo is a mistake?

    Many Thanks -
  • mawiles over 11 years ago

    maurydj
    These releases are considered promo versions?


    No. Promos are sent out to radio stations and DJs for promotion of unreleased tracks.
    A juke box is just a machine that automatically plays a selected record. Just enter the english translation in notes: "Special Juke Box Edition, not for sale".
  • Diognes_The_Fox over 11 years ago

    Yes, yes, yes I'm not talking about a standard stamped/stickered copy. It's not a generic sticker. It's one unique to the release itself (Contains artist's name, key tracks to play).
  • makbo over 11 years ago

    My understanding of the RSG that Nik posted is that even a promo sticker that is unique to a release is still just a sticker on a stock release and as such does not qualify as a separate promo release.

    For Columbia/Epic/CBS distributed records, these stickers were common for radio and in-store-play "promos".
  • Kergillian over 11 years ago

    Are you certain it's the company that attached the sticker, and not a third party (like a radio station)?

    If it's not, then I would say that this qualifies as a unique release for sure, as the sticker is release-specific. Make sure to explain these aspects of the sticker in the notes (even transcribe what it says), and, if possible, throw up a pic or two :)
  • Kergillian over 11 years ago


    makbo
    My understanding of the RSG that Nik posted is that even a promo sticker that is unique to a release is still just a sticker on a stock release and as such does not qualify as a separate promo release.

    For Columbia/Epic/CBS distributed records, these stickers were common for radio and in-store-play "promos".


    I disagree - if the sticker is release-specific, then it is different that randomly assigning a generic promo sticker or stamp onto an otherwise retail version.

    This is no different than a release that has a sticker over a barcode or a sticker with updated info on it, which is also considered unique to the version without such stickers...
  • SmotheredHope over 11 years ago


    Kergillian
    I disagree - if the sticker is release-specific, then it is different that randomly assigning a generic promo sticker or stamp onto an otherwise retail version.


    This has been discussed in the forums before and ruled out as not unique. Everything that's been tampered with after it's been manufactured is off limits.
  • Kergillian over 11 years ago


    SmotheredHope
    This has been discussed in the forums before and ruled out as not unique. Everything that's been tampered with after it's been manufactured is off limits.


    Can you link the ruling, please? I'm usually up to date on these sorts of rulings, and I don't recall that.

    The 'tampered' comment doesn't hold water, as barcode stickers, insert sheets, non-promo stamps, etc are allowable as unique - AND there is no way of knowing whether or not a release-specific sticker was applied at the tail end of a mfg process or not...
  • ahlbomper over 11 years ago

    http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/206433
    i think (some of) that topic is related to this.
  • SmotheredHope over 11 years ago

    SmotheredHope edited over 11 years ago
    Kergillian
    Can you link the ruling, please? I'm usually up to date on these sorts of rulings, and I don't recall that.


    I know we've had discussions about CDs that has promo text stickers attached to the jewelcase. The stickers are release specific. These have been ruled out as not eligible for the database and people normally add info in notes about them in the submission of the commercial release. I remember a Yello "promo" being removed due to this and that discussion, I'll try again to find it but the search function isn't exactly optimal.

    Here's a similar discussion we had about Japanese promos with "Sample" stickers on them, which has some interesting points. Those are not as release specific as mentioned here though. http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/166164

    [edit] - no, can't find the thread I'm afraid, and maybe that thread about Japanese promos didn't hold much weight here.

    [edit] - here's a link to a similar release as in the Yello example, see notes and images. http://www.discogs.com/release/1277786
  • cannymusic over 11 years ago

    A stickered (promo, pre-release / sample) release (on cover or label) is usually the same as the official release other than the sticker. But as in the case of 60s / 70s releases the sticker usually read "Factory Sample Not For Sale" and with some bands, like Beatles, Floyd, Zeppelin, etc. will mean that this copy is worth more than the standard release, although the record is exactly the same.

    But

    A true promo or advanced release will add this information on the label (or the label is different with a large A or similar overprinted) and this, regarding records mentioned in the previous paragraph should be treated as different releases (even though tracks remain the same), because on very collectable records this will mean a very significant difference in price value.

    But

    Again with a lot of the run of the mill 80's - date 12" promos just with a Promo sticker would remain the same as a standard release. There are lots of exceptions to this such as Oasis and other collectable bands of the last 20 years.

    Having re-read my own post here, I don't know what the answer is - but I would suggest, that if the label is the same and does not quote "Promo" or "Advance Copy" or similar - then it should be treated as a standard release.
  • Diognes_The_Fox over 11 years ago

  • CAP81 over 11 years ago

    Diognes_The_Fox
    Factory sticker in question

    If that's the only thing on it, and there's zero difference on the labels or on the sleeve to differentiate it from a stock copy, there's nothing "unique" about it. Having said that, I'm sure in many people's eyes, that sticker being there does indeed make it a "promo" (especially from a selling point of view, where promo almost always = "costs a little more".)
  • makbo over 11 years ago

    Here's an example of another similar type of sticker:

    http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=2015846

    Not a promo, AFAIK. In this case, there was also a cut-off corner of the album sleeve.

    RSG
    "6.12.2. Promo - Any item labeled as being released for promotional purposes, including advance copies sent out to promote a retail release and releases (often compilations) that are made available for free, as found attached to magazines. Only list an item as a Promo if the release is clearly listed as such. Retail releases with stamped, stickered, or similarly altered covers and/or CDs are to be considered the same as retail, as should retail releases with cut spines, marked or cut barcodes, or other such defacement. Additionally, retail releases that include 'one-sheet' promotional press-release or feedback type pages are not to be considered different than the retail version. "
  • SmotheredHope over 11 years ago

    The RSG is very clear on this - it's not to be labeled promo when it's only a stickered one and there's no other difference between the retail copy and the stickered copy.

    CAP81
    Having said that, I'm sure in many people's eyes, that sticker being there does indeed make it a "promo" (especially from a selling point of view, where promo almost always = "costs a little more".)


    It doesn't make it a promo on Discogs though, and info about it should be added to the sub of the retail version. If a copy is put up for sale just mention in the item description that it's the stickered promo.

  • Diognes_The_Fox over 11 years ago


    makbo
    Here's an example of another similar type of sticker:


    So. It's settled. We completely ignore these exist?
  • djpileup over 11 years ago


    If the sticker just said 'Promo' then it would just get mentioned in the notes of he retail version that some were mailed out that way.

    this sticker is far more detailed rather than generic and i think that the idea that it may be considered as a unique release version has some merit.
  • CAP81 over 11 years ago

    SmotheredHope
    It doesn't make it a promo on Discogs though

    You'll notice I offered no opinion on that.
    djpileup
    i think that the idea that it may be considered as a unique release version has some merit

    The fact that I could feel that coming being but one of the reasons I took that route.

  • funky_kitchen over 11 years ago

    ok, so I can consider all the Italian juke boxe release as promo?

    Italian juke box release are always different from the offical releases made for sell:

    1- they always come in a different color label (often white)
    2- most of them presenting 2 different artists, one par side
    3- on label we can find one or more than one of the following writings:
    "Special Edition Juke Box" - "Disco Promozionale" - "Vietata la Vendita" - "Campione Non Commerciabile"
    4- they always have a different catalogue number
    5- sometimes they don't have an offical release correspondant, and present some unedit songs or version.

    I have severals records of this kind to submit, so I prefer to have
    your judge on the matter.
  • funky_kitchen over 11 years ago

    ...sorry here are the translations:

    DISCO PROMOZIONALE = PROMOTIONAL RECORD
    EDIZIONE SPECIALE JUKE BOX = SPECIAL EDITION JUKE BOX
    VIETATA LA VENDITA = NOT FOR SALE
    CAMPIONE NON COMMERCIABILE = NOT AVAILABLE FOR SALE

    ..the last thing..
    most of the juke box release come in a generic sleeve, very few of them come with picture sleeve
  • schtel over 11 years ago

    funky_kitchen
    DISCO PROMOZIONALE = PROMOTIONAL RECORD
    VIETATA LA VENDITA = NOT FOR SALE
    CAMPIONE NON COMMERCIABILE = NOT AVAILABLE FOR SALE

    Yes.
    funky_kitchen
    EDIZIONE SPECIALE JUKE BOX = SPECIAL EDITION JUKE BOX

    No, I don't think so. Not if that's all it says. Possibly though. You will have to provide some evidence these are used for promotional purposes. And I personally wouldn't be able to make that decision. Someone else can help or contact discogs manager nik :)
    Guidelines
    White Labels, Promos and Test Pressings

    6.12.1. Just because a release has a plain label does not mean that an item should be listed as Promo or Test Pressing.

    6.12.2. Promo - Any item labelled as being released for promotional purposes, including advance copies sent out to promote a retail release and releases (often compilations) that are made available for free, as found attached to magazines.This tag should only be used where it is clear the item was released as such, for example it is explicitly mentioned on the release, or by the label, artist, or other reliable source.
    http://www.discogs.com/help/submission-guidelines-release-format.html#White_Labels_Promos_And_Test_Pressings
  • funky_kitchen over 11 years ago

    and if the records contains both:

    VIETATA LA VENDITA (NOT FOR SALE)
    EDIZIONE SPECXIALE PER JUKE BOX (SPECIAL EDITION JUKE BOX)

    ??
  • FROCIANDRO over 11 years ago

    This tag should only be used where it is clear the item was released as such, for example it is explicitly mentioned on the release, or by the label, artist, or other reliable source.
  • schtel over 11 years ago

    funky_kitchen
    and if the records contains both:

    VIETATA LA VENDITA (NOT FOR SALE)
    EDIZIONE SPECXIALE PER JUKE BOX (SPECIAL EDITION JUKE BOX)

    Yes. I think it's safe to assume "not for sale" = promo
  • maurydj over 11 years ago

    Please:

    no personal interpretation. Strict adherence to what is printed on the disc.

    From Guidelines: " explicitly mentioned on the release "

    - Thx -
  • marcelrecords over 11 years ago

    Guidelines
    for example it is explicitly mentioned on the release

    why are people so often omitting this essential phrase?
  • ahlbomper over 11 years ago

    not for sale = promo

    when it says not for sale, it should mean it's a promo
    (because of what the release says. not because of a personal interpretation)
  • schtel over 11 years ago

  • schtel over 11 years ago

    ^ ha, randomly I didn't notice "maurydj - Complete and Correct (22 days ago)" :D
  • funky_kitchen over 11 years ago

    ..so all the records with written:

    VIETATA LA VENDITA = NOT FOR SALE

    CAMPIONE NON COMMERCIABILE = NOT AVAILABLE FOR SALE

    are promos!!
  • funky_kitchen over 11 years ago

    ...another important question...

    most Label that release unofficial and/or bootleg vinyls use to put on the label or cover the writing "PROMOTIONAL USE ONLY, NOT FOR SALE" to not ahve problerms with law, but they are sold in record store, so I don't think we have to consider that records PROMOs. Please let me know.
  • funky_kitchen over 11 years ago

  • funky_kitchen over 11 years ago

    maurydj
    you wrote:no personal interpretation. Strict adherence to what is printed on the disc.

    From Guidelines: " explicitly mentioned on the release "

    BUT guidelines say:
    "for example it is explicitly mentioned on the release"

    it's a little bit different...
  • ahlbomper over 11 years ago

    funky_kitchen
    most Label that release unofficial and/or bootleg vinyls use to put on the label or cover the writing "PROMOTIONAL USE ONLY, NOT FOR SALE" to not ahve problerms with law, but they are sold in record store, so I don't think we have to consider that records PROMOs.

    i think some copies of most promos have been sold at record-stores. so that shouldn't be the decider for if it's a promo.

    if it's known it's an unofficial or bootleg, it's not a promo & shouldn't be tagged as Promo even if Promo is written on the release.
    (but it would seem unfair to vote incorrect if somebody has added promo in such a case. then it would be better to explain why it's not a promo, or just edit it, with an explanation to why it's not a promo)
  • RaveRod80 over 11 years ago

    "promo" and "not for sale" are different things. Look at, for example, the records annexed to the newspaper..."not for sale" but not promo. Italian law (i'm a lawyer) considers "promo" and "not for sale" different things. Look at this link
    http://www.lumusica.com/siae/modello_siae_per_richiesta_bollini_cd.pdf
    Look at "Quadro F". If you need a translation please ask me.
    Bye
    Rod
  • RaveRod80 over 11 years ago

    a juke box release is a different way of distributing music commercially. When i use a juke-box i have to pay! A promo copy is a promotional copy FREE.
  • funky_kitchen over 11 years ago

    Infatti nel quadro F insieme alle copie promo ci sono le copie omaggio, le copie aziendali e quelle istituzionali (se ne hai alcune di questi ultimi 2 tipi me li linki per piacere, sono curioso di scoprire queste copie aziendali o addirittura istituzionali).

    Se in un disco c'è scritto VIETATA LA VENDITA cosa significa?
    Che non si può vendere, se non si può vendere si può solo REGALARE, dare in omaggio per promuovere!!

    Comunque attendo la chiusura definitiva da parte del grande capo NIK.

  • funky_kitchen over 11 years ago

    ...sorry, but PROMO and NOT FOR SALE are in the same square...maybe they are the same thing!!
  • funky_kitchen over 11 years ago

    Il quadro SIAE non significa niente ma continui a postarlo, quel quadro riguarda i diritti di pubblicazione che si pagano alla SIAE e sono differenziati a seconda del canale distributivo, in base a quello i produttori pagano il dazio alla SIAE...se hai letto le guida discogs, avrai letto che le copie distribuite assieme ad una rivista sono considerate promozionali...rileggiti le regole !
  • funky_kitchen over 11 years ago

    funky_kitchen edited over 11 years ago
    Il quadro SIAE non significa niente ma continui a postarlo, quel quadro riguarda i diritti di pubblicazione che si pagano alla SIAE e sono differenziati a seconda del canale distributivo, in base a quello i produttori pagano il dazio alla SIAE, anche quando si produce un disco OMAGGIO non per la vendita bisogna pagare la SIAE.

    ...se poi hai letto le guida discogs, avrai letto che le copie distribuite assieme ad una rivista sono considerate promozionali...rileggiti le regole !
  • ahlbomper over 11 years ago

    RaveRod80
    When i use a juke-box i have to pay! A promo copy is a promotional copy FREE.

    i think those who buy records for their juke-box usually also have to pay for them.
    i would say even if no commercial juke-box releases were made, if it wasn't meant for sale, it's a promo.
    (i think most promos were made for commercial reasons, so don't get too hung up on the word commercial)

    promo & not for sale are 2 different things (not every item in the world which is not for sale, is a promo)
    but if not for sale is printed on a record it must mean it's a promo (unless it's a bootleg)

  • RaveRod80 over 11 years ago

    there are a lot of records "not for sale" not promo...Juke boxe relases are a example. All juke box relaesse are "not for sale" because were distributed in according to different rules (other example are dvd rental copies...not for sale but not promo)....
    Bye
    Rod
  • ahlbomper over 11 years ago

    is it usual that "not for sale" (or such. in italian) is printed on releases meant to bought for juke-box use ?

    were these "not for sale" releases not meant to promote the release (or artist. or label) ?

    where were these juke-boxes placed ?

    i love your forum outro. in a good way :)
    i feel like copying another i've received in mail, which i also loved:
    hello and the next
    per
  • funky_kitchen over 11 years ago

  • RaveRod80 over 11 years ago


    ahlbomper
    is it usual that "not for sale" (or such. in italian) is printed on releases meant to bought for juke-box use ?


    that's right...
    "not for sale" means that a record can not be sold at retail.

    A juke box release is "not for sale" because can not, usually, sold at retail- A juke boxe release is intended for distriburion to juke boxe. Is not a promo but a different way for commercial distribution of music.
    Also a dvd for rental has a written "not for sale" because can non sold to the consumer...but is not a promo.

    Bye

    Rod
  • RaveRod80 over 11 years ago


    funky_kitchen
    is this a promo?

    http://www.discogs.com/U2-In-M...-Eye/release/2202951


    i think that is a promo because is written "for promotional use"
  • funky_kitchen over 11 years ago

    Please explain me how an UNOFFICIAL RELEASE can be a PROMO.
    This is a bootleg, a pirate records, recorded and published without right society permissions as well as band permisisons od label permissions.
    How it can have a promotional purpose?
    They were realised only for money and the write "promotional use" were applicated only to not have less problems with laws.

  • RaveRod80 over 11 years ago

    Dear Funky
    look at the discogs Guidelines
    "is explicitly mentioned on the release"...in this case i have read "for promotional use"....according to discogs rules i think that is a promo. Where is written that this record was realised only for money???!!!
  • funky_kitchen over 11 years ago

    leggila bene la guida dice

    FOR EXEMPLE "is explicitly mentioned on the release"

    non significa sempre e solo se esplicitamente menzionato...
    è una cosa ben diversa e qualcuno aveva già segnalato questa mancanza all'inzio di questa discussione:

    marcelrecords wrote:

    guidelines
    for example it is explicitly mentioned on the release

    why are people so often omitting this essential phrase?

    leggiti la guida, non fare il professore per sentito dire, l'italiano non è un opinione...neanche l'inglese lo è!
  • funky_kitchen over 11 years ago

    e te l'ho pure tradotta, questo mi fa pensare che neanche l'hai letta la traduzione che ti ho fatto!!
  • ahlbomper over 11 years ago

    jeg forstår ikke det meste italiensk. jeg tror det samme er tilfældet for, trods alt, de fleste discogs brugere !
    så det der bliver skrevet på italiensk kan jeg sjældent tage stilling til.

    the google translation of that is surprisingly good:
    "I do not understand much Italian. I think the same is true for, after all, most Discogs users!
    As it is written in Italian, I can rarely take a position."
  • funky_kitchen over 11 years ago

    sorry, i will translate everything on my next posts.
    Sorry again, but italians don't understand so well english, they always say to TAG promo only if explicitly mentioned, while the guideline syas something different.
  • Staff 3.4k

    nik over 11 years ago

    I think RaveRod80 made an important point here.

    There is a 'third type' of release:

    1. Full public release
    2. Promotional item
    3. Item not for public sale, only to be used in jukeboxes

    I wouldn't recommend tagging the third item as 'Promo'.
  • SeRKeT over 11 years ago


    nik
    I wouldn't recommend tagging the third item as 'Promo'.

    some juke box versions are promo's though see here for ex :
    http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=1253381
  • maurydj over 11 years ago

    maurydj edited over 11 years ago
    " Excuse me ", still do not understand?

    Please Mr. Nik:

    I would like a clearer indication as possible!

    a statement that no longer gives any doubt on this issue.

    - Many Thanks -

    Es: see images => http://www.discogs.com/U2-In-My-Minds-Eye/release/2202951
  • funky_kitchen over 11 years ago

    nik:

    Italian juke box release are always different from the offical releases made for sell, they are unique release because:

    1- they always come in a different color label (often white)
    2- most of them presenting 2 different artists, one par side
    3- they always have a catalogue number different from retail releases
    4- sometimes they don't have an offical release correspondant, and present some unedit songs or version.
    5- most of the juke box release come in a generic sleeve with the original juke box sticker, very few of them come with picture sleeve
    6- on label we can find one or more than one of the following writings:
    DISCO PROMOZIONALE = PROMOTIONAL RECORD
    EDIZIONE SPECIALE JUKE BOX = SPECIAL EDITION JUKE BOX
    VIETATA LA VENDITA = NOT FOR SALE
    CAMPIONE NON COMMERCIABILE = NOT AVAILABLE FOR SALE

    how we have to TAG them?

    Can we consider as promo an UNOFFICIAL RELEASE like bootleg just because there is written "for promotional use"? Can an unofficial release be a promo?

    see this exemple:

    http://www.discogs.com/U2-In-M...elease/2202951
  • Staff 3.4k

    nik over 11 years ago

    Each release has to be decided on it's individual merits.

    If a release is labelled as a promotional item, then it is a promo (unless someone can think of / cite a very good reason why it shouldn't be).
  • maurydj over 11 years ago

    nik
    (unless someone can think of / cite a very good reason why it shouldn't be).


    As always, just lots of discussions ...

    - Thanks -
  • funky_kitchen over 11 years ago

    ..and where is written
    NOT FOR SALE??

    or NOT AVAILABLE FOR SALE?

    here there is not written PROMO (but only NOT AVAILABLE FOR SALE), how we have to TAG it?

    http://www.discogs.com/sell/item/19691496?ev=bp_titl
  • Staff 3.4k

    nik over 11 years ago

    funky_kitchen
    and where is written
    NOT FOR SALE??

    or NOT AVAILABLE FOR SALE?

    here there is not written PROMO (but only NOT AVAILABLE FOR SALE), how we have to TAG it?


    nik
    1. Full public release
    2. Promotional item
    3. Item not for public sale, only to be used in jukeboxes

    I wouldn't recommend tagging the third item as 'Promo'.


    Going by the discussion in this thread, "Not For Sale" by itself does not mean "Promo".
  • schtel over 11 years ago

    nik
    There is a 'third type' of release:

    1. Full public release
    2. Promotional item
    3. Item not for public sale, only to be used in jukeboxes

    Then it would be good to take care of these three types appropriately. How can we correctly tag a release described by point 3. ? Apart from the fail-safe release notes. :)

    I wouldn't advise having "Jukebox Version" in the FTF as this may be confused with "Dinked" 7"s

    Perhaps also the following example is similar to the "Not For Sale" releases being discussed here: DEMO RECORD NOT FOR SALE

    We had a discussion on this and concluded that that "Demo" is most likely being used in place of 'Promo'. But maybe it means a different thing as "For Demonstration Only" and perhaps it was intended to be used like the point 3. promos being discussed here?

    But clearly if these aren't the retail or the promo versions but we accept these are a different 'format' it would be good to acknowlege this with an appropriate tag, since we can assume there must be thousands of these type of releases. Is it just the Italian market, or a European thing?
  • funky_kitchen over 11 years ago

    ...and how tag a record where is written like descript in point.3...

    SPECIAL EDITION JUKE BOX + NOT FOR SALE like this:
    http://www.kissfaq.com/singles/italy/italy_a8074.jpg

    At this point I think it's better addict "juke box" in the format drop menu, so we could par exemple submit a release as:

    ....vinyl, 7", 45 rpm, juke box, promo

    or

    ....vinyl, 7", 45 rpm, juke box

    But I think that the problme reguard esclusively italian juke box records which are unique pressing, it doesn't exist other similar pressing in other country.
    They are unique for the following reasons:

    1- they always come in a different color label (often white)
    2- most of them presenting 2 different artists, one par side
    3- they always have a catalogue number different from retail releases
    4- sometimes they don't have an offical release correspondant, and present some unedit songs or version.
    5- most of the juke box release come in a generic sleeve with the original juke box sticker, very few of them come with picture sleeve
    6- on label we can find one or more than one of the following writings:
    DISCO PROMOZIONALE = PROMOTIONAL RECORD
    EDIZIONE SPECIALE JUKE BOX = SPECIAL EDITION JUKE BOX
    VIETATA LA VENDITA = NOT FOR SALE
    CAMPIONE NON COMMERCIABILE = NOT AVAILABLE FOR SALE
    VIETATA LA VENDITA AL PUBBLICO = NOT FOR RETAIL SALE (maybe!)
  • funky_kitchen over 11 years ago

    I think we have to treat them differently from juke box records from other countries.
  • Staff 3.4k

    nik over 11 years ago

    Do we need to add another tag for these releases?

    If we do, what should we use?

    I don't think 'Juke Box' by itself is very good, it may well get confused with large / small hole records.
  • funky_kitchen over 11 years ago

    why can they bu confused with records with large or small hole?
    I don't understand why...

    All italian juke box have large hole, but I think also foreign juke box, I don't think that juke box machine can play a record with small hole
  • funky_kitchen over 11 years ago

    nik
    I finally find a reliable source about the story of the juke box vinyls made by one of the most expert on the matter & collector of juke box records. I will try to translate it then I will post.

    In this article he explains how the juk box vinyls born he confirms that this kind of records where only pressed in Italy, no other similar vinyls exist in the world. So this can confirm the necessity to add a new TAG for this kind of records. It can't be TAG as promo neither when explicitly written on label, because they was ever sold (never give for free or promotion) at a bergain price and only at people who had a license to play juke box machines. I willpost the artile translated very soon.
  • funky_kitchen over 11 years ago

    this is the pages in italian

    about Claudio Tosato:
    http://www.45mania.it/claudiotosato.htm

    abpout the vinlys:
    http://www.45mania.it/storiadiscojb.htm
  • funky_kitchen over 11 years ago

    this is the translation, I jump only few not important steps, please feel free to ask if something is not completely clear in the translation.
    ...good read...

    The juke box vinyl edition is a prerogative all and only Italian. Consider that even in the U.S., where the juke box machine was born, have never thought of doing anything like that.

    The jukebox vinyl was conceived by two friends who found themselves together to make the military. One of Turin, who worked in one of the first stores of appliances with the department records, and the son of a manager of RCA in Rome.

    We were at the dawn of the famous "charterer" who began to gain by putting something in place in some of the first bar juke box that arrived in Italy and almost always used with cargo for NATO bases.

    But there was an ostacle to deployment of these new machines: the cost of the vinyls. In fact, the cost for the official vinyls were too high but if there was the opportunity to buy at a lower price, you could have bought in many more copies, also encouraging gains for the managers of the bars. This thing, at the time span in air was discussed, precisely between the two comrades. At the end of the lever vale Torinese was called to Rome by the father of the friend who had accepted the idea of two guys a great promotional vehicle for the vinyls.

    At the time, RCA was the most 'powerful Italian label, and had been practically a gift from the U.S. government to the City' the Vatican to give a little 'work to the Romans after the war. After some years, the Vatican gave its shares to private and RCA ITALIAN born after the label had debuted in his early years as RCA Victor. And it was the first Italian label RCA to distribute the first edition jukebox vinyls.

    At first jukebox editions by RCA records were normal, completely identical to the commercial version, also the cover. The only difference was on a stamp, placed on the labels, of gold or silver on black label with the words "Edition Juke Box - not for sale". It went on for a couple of years later, to reduce costs and to deter fraudsters, disappeared the covers and discs for juke boxes were distributed in the RCA company sleeve always using the black label. But even without the cover, this kind of vinyl encouraged illegal operations. In fact dishonest sellers, after removal the stamp using trichlorethylene made him in effect "official" and could be sold at normal price, an increase of 100% gain.

    RCA then thought to use for this vinyls specific label different from the official release to sell, so it can no longer be possible counterfeit them and can be easily identifiable by the buyers. At first it was used a lemon yellow color, abandoned after a few months for the historical color white cardboard remained in use until 1997. Then in recent years, from 1998 to 2003, RCA records for juke box came with the classic white label promo radio type. Even the generic bags perforated with the RCA logo (there are about 5 types) disappeared soon and the vinyls were packaged recycling unsold surplus pictured sleeve that were properly drilled in the center to show the label. Then were used blank white sleeves, up to recent years when it was used recycled paper that went from gray to white dirty. From 70 'on the label appears SIAE stamp. Since 1998, the stamp was replaced by the classical sticker, which is still in use untill today.

    Returning to the first issues of this kind of vinyls the other record companies joined the Italian famous "Juke Box Edition." In the early years almost all the productions reflected the side A and side B of the regular edition, then to safe money on the SIAE costs they decided to put in a B-side of the same record artist not famous or emerging.

    It also happened that some songs appear only in this kind of release and never publised as offciale retail vinyls, this made that vinyls precious for the collectors.

    Initially it was used for the production low quality vinyl plastic that resulted from grinding discs unsold. in subsequent years, they were pressed using virgin vinyl.

    At first the juke box vinyls was sold, illegally, to the public. Then the Guardia di Finanza (Tax Police) has imposed on shops selling even normal commercial versions, to create a special separate place where they were made only enter the equipment operators or charterers.

    In the first six years this type of issue came out with an advance of about one month compared with the official distribution, other times, the jukebox edition was printed only after the official release. I remember for example the case of "La Canzone del Sole" by Lucio Battisti, which jukebox version was released only two months after the official distribution.

    In recent years the traditional jukebox machine were disappearing from bars and for a time you tried to place the machines that used the new CD. For a couple of years the records companies have attempted the product jukebox CD, but with little success. The only exceptions to this production is a CD of Vasco Rossi and Queen who are still highly sought after by collectors.

    Also in recent years the production of juke box vinyls treated only by the last two remaining major distributors: the JBR from Turin and ODJB from Milan. During this time the juke box stickers were printed using a home printer and a copier and not through the traditional printing. For this reason you can find a single disc comes with different kind of sticker.

    Finally, a clarification: the juke box vinyls were never been for free. These media have always been sold with an invoice for half of the price. For this reason can not be treated as the official promotional copies. To confirm the peculiarity of the Italian juke box vinyl, think that I had to send to Warner Bros. Music Latin America, in USA, a 45 juke box vinyl of Laura Pausini because each time I try to put on sale on Ebay, I was forced to remove them becuase their controls. For Warner Bors that record was considered never issued and therefore a Bootleg. Only after they received copies of the vinyl they have recognized that release as official and now everybody can sell them without any problems.
  • Dads_Vinyl over 11 years ago

    Dads_Vinyl edited over 11 years ago
    Comments taken from forum:
    http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/210346

    IS this a promo?

    part of the matrix has this "-ID-DJ" does that mean it was sent out as a promo for DJ's and this should be mentioned in the release notes along with One label side Red the other White or just left in the BAOI field?

    -------------------------------
    Here is the original post
    -------------------------------

    Is this really a promo? The Chakachas* - Jungle Fever There was a correction to the catalog. But the label shows PD-15030 NOT PD 15030.

    I am about to add this, and wasn't sure if corrections were needed.

    My copy also has a slight variation in the printed info on the labels.
    But it does have a red & white label.

    Matrix on labels read:

    Cat. PD-15030

    Red label: Pol-30293-S -ID-DJ STEREO

    White Label: Pol 30293-m-ID-DJ MONO
    -----------------

    Questions I guess are;

    Promo or not.

    Catalog changed back to PD-15030

    Because my copy has additional info "Sabam publishing" Do I need to make a new submission?

    (edit)

    Also guess should add "Single Tag"

    Since Jungle Fever is featured on both sides.

    (Edit)
    Fixed link for the sub.
  • Dads_Vinyl over 11 years ago

    Still need help here. Please
  • ahlbomper over 11 years ago

    funky_kitchen
    this is the translation

    good work.
    if i wasn't convinced before, now it could look like these italian juke box releases should not be called promo's even if they say "not for sale".

    but as nik asks, what format tags should they then have ?

    i guess in some way they can be compared to some of the items the danish public libraries purchases. some of those can't be bought by "ordinary" people in the exact same format the libraries get's them in
    (& usually the public libraries pay more for a cd than an ordinary person)
  • funky_kitchen over 11 years ago

    I think we need to add juke box TAG to the format menu.
    Because this records cannot be compared with with promos neither with official retail vinyls. It's an Italian peculiarity.
  • schtel over 11 years ago

    funky_kitchen
    I think we need to add juke box TAG to the format menu.

    Your forgetting about retail releases that are also pre-dinked for use in jukeboxes. These can be referred to a Jukebox 7"s but are not to be confused with the type of releases you are talking about. :)
    schtel
    I wouldn't advise having "Jukebox Version" in the FTF as this may be confused with "Dinked" 7"s

    nik
    I don't think 'Juke Box' by itself is very good, it may well get confused with large / small hole records.

    Don't worry though, funky_kitchen, I think we will be able to come up with some valid tags to describe the different types of 7" records, your jukebox promos included. Hold tight. :)
  • funky_kitchen over 11 years ago

    sorry I didn't understand what you said. What's a dinked 7"?
  • Staff 3.4k

    nik over 11 years ago

    'Dinked' or 'Jukebox 7"' is a large hole in a 7", as opposed to a small hole the same size as a 12" or LP.

    I suspect that more examples may come out of the woodwork regarding these types of releases.

    The only think I can think of is 'Licensed' or 'Public Broadcast Licensed' or something along those lines.
  • funky_kitchen over 11 years ago

    ok...but all the italians 7"s comes with large hole included the juke box vinyls. No italian juke box vinyls have a small hole.
  • schtel over 11 years ago

    Yes, but a lot of 7"s with the large hole are also retail versions, whereas your Italian large hole 7"s are "Not For Sale" versions, ie not retail. See here for further info: http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/208082

    AFAICS there are the following variations:-

    a) 7" (Small Hole) Retail
    b) 7" (Small Hole) Promo

    c) 7" (Option-centre) Retail
    d) 7" (Option-centre) Promo

    e) 7" (Large Hole) Retail
    f) 7" (Large Hole) Promo

    g) 7" (Large Hole) Jukebox Only (Italian)
    h) 7" (Large Hole) Jukebox Only (Italian) Promo

    Although perhaps g) and h) are the same thing?
  • funky_kitchen over 11 years ago

    I think it's good.

    Anyway, italian pressing are all with Large Hole, both juke box and retail, very very few pressings were released with Small Hole but NEVER the juke box 7" vinyls.
  • funky_kitchen over 11 years ago

    funky_kitchen edited over 11 years ago
    I think we can assume LARGE HOLE (originally released as dinked) AS DEFAULT FORMAT because they are the most popular 7"s produced (large hole was the rule in USA, Italy, France, Spain, Germany, Greece, Jamaica; in the rest of Western Europe we found more large holes than smalls; small hole was the rule only in UK. In Scandinavia and East Europe small hole was rule until the end of the'70).

    exemples of large hole:
    -germany 7" from the '60 http://www.discogs.com/Beatles-Twist-And-Shout-Boys/release/509278
    -france 7" from the '60 http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=1282765
    -spain 7" from the '60 http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=779705
    -italian 7" from the '60 http://www.discogs.com/Beatles-Yellow-Submarine-Eleanor-Rigby/release/2236992
    -greece 7" from the '60 http://www.discogs.com/Rolling-Stones-I-Cant-Get-No-Satisfaction-The-Spider-And-The-Fly/release/1647975
    -jamaica 7" from the '60 http://www.discogs.com/Wailers-Im-Gonna-Put-It-On-Love-WonT-Be-Mine-This-Way/release/2154921

    a) 7" (Solid Centre) for all the releases with small hole
    [than in the notes we can specify what kind of solid center is]
    -exemple of solid centre http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=556905

    b) 7" (Option-centre) for all the releases with removable center
    [than in the notes we can specify if tri-quatro]
    -exemple of option-centre (quatro) http://www.discogs.com/Beatles-Strawberry-Fields-Forever-Penny-Lane/release/674062
    -exemple of option-centre removed http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=863338

    c) 7" (Jukebox) for all the vinyls released for juke boxe machine ONLY not for sale(NOT turntable, but Juke Boxe). In italy were pressed thousands of this kind of vinyls from the 1960 to 2000 about.
    -exemple of juke boxe 7" http://www.discogs.com/Beatles-I-Want-To-Hold-Your-Hand/release/2235305

    All the Digged Solid Centre (with the centre cutted out) are damaged vinyls because not release originally as Large Hole.
    This king of damage should be in the notes and in the description is you are selling this kind of releases. The buyer have to know it.
  • funky_kitchen over 11 years ago

    is there anybody out there?
  • vinileviola over 11 years ago

    after reading all the topic about italian juke box issues, i think RaveRod80 made the correct analogy:

    RaveRod80
    A juke box release is "not for sale" because can not, usually, sold at retail- A juke boxe release is intended for distriburion to juke boxe. Is not a promo but a different way for commercial distribution of music.
    Also a dvd for rental has a written "not for sale" because can non sold to the consumer...but is not a promo.


    waiting for a proper TAG ("Licenced" might be confusing), here's my opinion:
    i see no harm in adding "Juke Box" as a new format form...
    it would be enough to write something like this in the description:

    "Only items that have this printed on them somewhere (stickers etc), or were originally marketed by the label as such, should be tagged as 'Juke Box'."

    thanks...
  • rassel over 11 years ago

    There are a lot of different imprints like:
    - Promo - Not for sale
    - Promo Copy
    - Not for sale DJs only
    - Not for sale Radio Stations only
    - SPECIAL EDITION JUKE BOX

    and so on.
    I'd add just ONE new tag:Not For Sale, this could be used in any combination with Promo, Test Pressings, White Label and so on.
    The additional information, such as Juke Box, DJs only, Radio Stations only and so on could be added to the FTF field.
  • INTERSTELLAR_VINYL over 11 years ago

    I'm 'fessin up:

    Eagles - Eagles

    I put it up for removal.
  • vinileviola over 11 years ago


    rassel
    I'd add just ONE new tag:Not For Sale, this could be used in any combination with Promo, Test Pressings, White Label and so on.
    The additional information, such as Juke Box, DJs only, Radio Stations only and so on could be added to the FTF field.


    good idea!
    m.
  • Dr.SultanAszazin over 11 years ago


    SmotheredHope
    Everything that's been tampered with after it's been manufactured is off limits.

    oh, didn't know I should ignore the sleeve...
    (sorry, that comment's 4 months old, but my eye felt on it:)

    rassel
    I'd add just ONE new tag:Not For Sale

    good idea,

Log In You must be logged in to post.