• swagski over 7 years ago

    Regarding some discussion that took place elsewhere & here
    http://www.discogs.com/history?release=1512620#latest
    and on suggestion of schtel & helix therein;
    "Dinked" does seem to be an issue that needs to be defined.

    As I understand it, there are 3 kinds of centers on '45s'.
    (I use the expression, or term, by which I know them. I haven't gone into the 'history' of the product as to the 'why' these events occurred)

    1) Knock-out Center. A center which is die-stamped, usually with 3 or 4 semi-circle slots that leave 3 or 4 'lugs' (attachments) that keep the center in place. With the advent of the Jukebox and its large center spindle this enabled 45 purchasers to 'knock out' the center.
    Collectors, I assume, would rather own such a 45 that has not been 'knocked out'.
    A picture with center in place is obviously preferable. If the picture has a large hole, then the 'notches' left by the 'lugs' is usually an indicator that it was/is a knock-out center. Best referred to as 'Knocked-out', not Dinked [see 3].
    4 lug example http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=530421
    3 lug example http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=2161187

    Advancing technologies & demise of Jukebox in popularity...
    2) Solid Center. A center that simply has a small spindle hole. Around it is a 'stamping radius' or indent/ridge where a large hole would normally be 'stamped out' - or Dinked [see 3].
    This can be seen on paper label issues, but is more apparent on injection-print issues where this area usually remains unprinted substrate.
    e.g injection-print http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=141193
    e.g. paper label http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=1057502

    3) Dinked Center. A center that has been 'mechanically' die-stamped to produce a [smooth-edged radius, no notches] large hole - this in manufacture by the record company. Some submitters place importance on Dinked for identification eg Björk And David Arnold - Play Dead
    "Dinked" is the common term for a 'mechanically-punched' hole.
    Dinking [′diŋk·iŋ]
    (mechanical engineering)
    Using a sharp, hollow punch for cutting light-gage soft metals or nonmetallic materials.
    McGraw-Hill Dictionary of Scientific & Technical Terms, 6E, Copyright © 2003 by The McGraw-Hill Companies, Inc.
    It can also be found at the foot here: http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Piercing_%28metalworking%29
    Knock-out 3 lug example http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=2161187
    Dinked issue of above http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=1179987

    Various plastic devices have been created to 'plug' the large hole of knock-out & dinked releases. Dinked USA (with bagged insert) http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=817513

    4) Hand-dinked. A center with a large radius hole that has been made by the owner, so that it can be played on a jukebox or turntable with a wide spindle.
    This would, of course, only have been done to a Solid Center issue.
    Collectors, I assume, would rather own an 'un-dinked' version.
    Those of a weak vinyl disposition should not watch a home-made dinking: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1xeojRHGn8

    So, to recap. 1, 2 & 3 are not 'an issue'. They may help in identifying between 2 similar releases. 1 & 4 may become an issue to collectors.

    I had tentatively suggested 1, 2 & 3 be available in the drop-down menu.
    (Perhaps not a mandatory requirement, but useful if there are similar releases? Post-actions carried out on recordings ie knocked out & hand-dinked are only issues between buyers/sellers IMHO)
  • loukash over 7 years ago

    swagski
    I had tentatively suggested 1, 2 & 3 be available in the drop-down menu.

    I'm supporting that 100%.
    This is definitely an important physical format attribute which significantly affects the compatibility of a 7" release with various flavors of record players.
    swagski
    (Perhaps not a mandatory requirement

    Why not? Unless there exist sealed 7" releases in picture sleeves (I don't recall ever seeing one though), this factor is immediately visible as soon as you hold the record in your hands while submitting… ;)
    swagski
    Post-actions carried out on recordings ie knocked out & hand-dinked are only issues between buyers/sellers IMHO)

    Yes, that's an issue to be noted in the Sell Item comments.
  • rassel over 7 years ago

    swagski
    I had tentatively suggested 1, 2 & 3 be available in the drop-down menu.

    It's an idea, but how often do we have the case, that the identical 7" single is available in several "Center" versions ?

    I would recommend to treat this the same way we treat for example the weight: If there are two or more identical versions with just a different weight, we may put it in the FTF.
    The same logic would work fine for me for the different center whole variations.
  • schtel over 7 years ago

    Currently I think we are/have introduced a mandatory bitrate, for file-based releases, to be entered into the FTF to facilitate the submission of other versions using different bitrates. I think we could apply that same logic to this topic here.

    I think we can assume that all 7"s on the database on 'solid centre', unless specified otherwise. So if a user has a Dinked or Knock-out then submit as a unique submission and mention in FTF.
    If we come across 7"s (by checking pics) on the database that are Dinked or Knock-out then we should mention this is the FTF.
  • swagski over 7 years ago

    swagski edited over 7 years ago
    rassel
    It's an idea, but how often do we have the case, that the identical 7" single is available in several "Center" versions ?

    Well, it recently happened for me
    http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=680261
    http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=2202052

    EDIT: Ahh. Further thought. You may suggest that they are not identical because text layout is (subtly) different. But the general thrust of my suggestion was for 'quick clarity' in viewing, without the need to 'home in' on pix - which may or may not be supplied, etc.
  • Diognes_The_Fox over 7 years ago

    Diognes_The_Fox edited over 7 years ago
    American 45's are pretty different!

    1) "Optional Center" or "O.C." is one of the general terms I've seen thrown around for this too state-side that came from Capitol Record's take on it. From what I've seen, this REALLY took off over there in europeland more than over here where it's pretty much only seen on a narrow band of records that came out on the mid 50's,
    http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=1924677 for another example. =)
    2) These are alot less common here, too. Not many commercial releases of 45's with small center holes in the US until the 90's. At least for pop music
    3) This is pretty much the standard for all commercial US releases.
    4) These should be treated as a damaged record and not a unique release, ihmo.
  • Diognes_The_Fox over 7 years ago

    swagski
    http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=680261

    That's just a generic 45 adapter and not actually part of the record. Might help to eliminate confusion by blanking the centerhole on that image, if anyone feels daring.
  • Diognes_The_Fox over 7 years ago

  • swagski over 7 years ago

    Diognes_The_Fox
    That's just a generic 45 adapter and not actually part of the record. Might help to eliminate confusion by blanking the centerhole on that image, if anyone feels daring.

    I take your point, but I did intentionally use this pic to show both the fact that it is Dinked and uses a plastic device. It is clear that there are no 'notches' present.
    Diognes_The_Fox
    4) These should be treated as a damaged record and not a unique release, ihmo.

    Absolutely agree...
    swagski
    Post-actions carried out on recordings ie knocked out & hand-dinked are only issues between buyers/sellers IMHO

  • swagski over 7 years ago

    Diognes_The_Fox
    "Optional Center" or "O.C." is one of the general terms I've seen thrown around for this too state-side that came from Capitol Record's take on it. From what I've seen, this REALLY took off over there in europeland more than over here where it's pretty much only seen on a narrow band of records that came out on the mid 50's

    It's an interesting term. "Optional Center" means, as I understand it, that 2 identical releases could and do exist. One with a small hole, one with a Dinked center?
  • All-Vinyl-Experience over 7 years ago

    All-Vinyl-Experience edited over 7 years ago
    Whilst a good point, I think these may prove an issue.

    Listing a dinked 7" with pictures will make it a different looking item to all the others that still have the original centers. However, it doesn't make it a different issue, just different looking. A bit like listing a record with hand writing on the sleeve by prev. owner - doesn't make it a different issue.

    However, I am all for a drop down for Jukebox issue where there is no center and never had one which will require a plastic center for play on a regular turntable.

    In the case of injected moulded 7's we are already differentiating them from same releases in the free text format box - see Two-Tone Records releases.

    In the case of tri-centers etc. these are mentioned in free text format box as in some [1=London Records] releases and RCA Records and is fine. Agree that this MUST be noted when a dinked item is up for sale as it will devalue it. Item Elvis Presley - Treat Me Nice / Jailhouse Rock is a tri-center (Again, should be mentioned in free text format box) and is worth two thirds more than a round center issue which should be a different listing. Should a tri/round center have been dinked should be possible from the notches to tell which release a record belongs to, unless the prev. owner has taken a file to it!?

    In summary - "Jukebox Issue" in Format dropdown - every thing else save for Free text format box.
  • rassel over 7 years ago

    All-Vinyl-Experience
    In summary - "Jukebox Issue" in Format dropdown - every thing else save for Free text format box.

    You live in the U.K. don't you ;)
    AFAIK U.K. is the only country where Jukebox Issue isn't the standard for pop singles.
  • swagski over 7 years ago

    swagski edited over 7 years ago
    All-Vinyl-Experience
    Listing a dinked 7" with pictures will make it a different looking item to all the others that still have the original centers. However, it doesn't make it a different issue, just different looking. A bit like listing a record with hand writing on the sleeve by prev. owner - doesn't make it a different issue if it has been dinked.

    It should NOT be listed as 'Knocked-out' or 'Hand-dinked' as I said.
    There's nothing 'wrong' with showing a pic that this has happened to, if that is what (or all) the submitter has. It is important (IMO) that the submitter realizes what they have is 'damaged' and, if any (non-mandatory) Submission Notes are included, the terms Knocked-out or Hand-Dinked are used in context.
    All-Vinyl-Experience
    It should be possible from the notches to tell which release a record belongs to, unless the prev. owner has taken a file to it!?

    It's difficult to ADD substrate by filing away, unless you like wobbly circles :)
    All-Vinyl-Experience
    In summary - Jukebox Issue in dropdown - every thing else save for Free text format box.

    That might help, but I think SOMETHING needs to be explained in RSG regarding what it is and what it means and the implications of it, etc.

    EDIT above for clarification: Submission notes, not Release notes, apologies.
  • All-Vinyl-Experience over 7 years ago

    rassel
    You live in the U.K. don't you ;)
    AFAIK U.K. is the only country where Jukebox Issue isn't the standard for pop singles


    Yes - but a lot of the blighters sneak their way in somehow! There are loads of new import re-issues for sale (thinking of Juno) that have no centers 96 Tears / That's Life
    swagski
    unless you like wobbly circles :)
    LOL
    swagski
    SOMETHING needs to be explained in RSG regarding what it is and what it means and the implications of it, etc.
    - Certainly agree.

  • swagski over 7 years ago

    rassel
    AFAIK U.K. is the only country where Jukebox Issue isn't the standard for pop singles.

    Us UK'uns and similar Third-world places maybe? There's an Australian here in this lot...
    Hit Me With Your Rhythm Stick / There Ain't Half Been Some Clever Bastards
    Ian Dury And The Blockheads - Hit Me With Your Rhythm Stick
  • rassel over 7 years ago

    swagski
    Us UK'uns and similar Third-world places maybe? There's an Australian here in this lot...

    Hmm, ok, maybe for these country who drive on the left lane, drive Vauxhall and Holden instead of Opel... :)
  • Curiopete over 7 years ago

    When I was a kid, the inserts were called 'spiders'.

    I don't think that the large hole was originally intended only for jukeboxes. We used to buy them from any music shop (mainly my sisters, we boys were too "cool"; we bought LPs) with the large hole and they were played on portable record players that played that speed only. They were not originally designed to be played on the "LP" turntables and the larger hole was originally meant to prevent just that.
    This explains why:
    http://www.enhancedaudio.com/45_restoration.htm

    Then, there came to be, a larger diameter mechanical-spindle that could stack records, and when a record was finished playing another record would drop down. We could stack quite a number of them and they remained balanced; the amount of distortion was an issue with the quality of the turntable and the quality of the record.
    The same idea was used with LPs but never really seemed to have taken off. In my opinion, if too many records were stacked on such a small-diameter spindle, they'd sit in an angle and act as a counterweight to create even more distortion.
    Perhaps this contributed, in a small way, to the longevity of the large hole. The jukebox, of course, would have contributed in a larger way.
  • Diognes_The_Fox over 7 years ago


    swagski

    It's an interesting term. "Optional Center" means, as I understand it, that 2 identical releases could and do exist. One with a small hole, one with a Dinked center?


    The only official version is the undinked. It just makes it easy for you to dink it out.

    ...now put a wikked dink onnit.
  • Diognes_The_Fox over 7 years ago


    Curiopete

    I don't think that the large hole was originally intended only for jukeboxes.

    It really has to do with format wars just after the 78 went out and Columbia had the LP and RCA had the 45...
  • swagski over 7 years ago

    swagski edited over 7 years ago
    Curiopete
    mechanical-spindle that could stack records, and when a record was finished playing another record would drop down

    This was the advent of "Auto-coupling" and the LP 2-disc A,D & B,C sides configuration.
    Diognes_The_Fox
    The only official version is the undinked. It just makes it easy for you to dink it out.

    So, I misunderstood your post and Capitol Records didn't produce both versions? They just suggested that you dink them yourself? I'm confused.

    Anyway, the bottom line (and reason I began topic - see 1st post) is not particularly the history, whys, wherefores, but simply that there ARE 3 kinds of centers on 45s. In some instances these seem to become cause for confusion and, in years to come it could all become hazy. "The Beatles?" "Who were they Grandad?"

    It may not be important to mention that an item is Knock-out, Solid or Dinked, as this is 'taken as read', in the same manner as "Stereo" is when submitting. It's only worthwhile if there's an alternative, a useful tool in a drop-down as clarification without need for 'copious' notes. I think it useful too that a terminology is adopted, so in the FTF it shows Din/Kno/Sol or Juk, if we go with Jukebox.
    Maybe in RSG a link to "Guide to 45s - centers/paper & injection-print labels etc" page in the Discogs Wiki would help?
    With stuff like Diognes_The_Fox kindly linked http://www.thebasementlabsworldwide.com/sevenadapters.jpg
    All adding to 'info-richness' of this site. Trust that makes sense.
  • swagski over 7 years ago

    rassel
    Hmm, ok, maybe for these country who drive on the left lane, drive Vauxhall and Holden instead of Opel...

    Opel? Weren't they Dinked by Fiat?
  • Diognes_The_Fox over 7 years ago

    swagski
    They just suggested that you dink them yourself

    Yes. It was all based on what kind of player you had. If you needed large holes, you just pressed down in the center and popped that out. The only second versions of that that exist are the first versions that just got popped out. ;)
  • DakotaThrice over 7 years ago

    swagski
    It may not be important to mention that an item is Knock-out, Solid or Dinked, as this is 'taken as read', in the same manner as "Stereo" is when submitting.


    With "Stereo" or LP denoting "Vinyl, 12", 33 RPM" I don't mind us taking a default view of something, but with other format/packaging option the fact that we can only add it to the FTF if another version is already submitted is one of the only issues I really have with the data entry process.

    For example if a 2x7" single is release in single sleeve, gatefold sleeve issues as well as solid centre/tri-centre push out/square push out centre then we should be able to add that from the first submission and not have to wait until another version is submitted and then go back and edit it.

    As for the ideas here I think that it would be good to have the different varietes (Solid/Square/Triangle) along with Mould injection/Paper Label added to the format drop down. At the same time we should also get an extra field added for packaging which has been frequently suggested
  • Staff 2.9k

    nik over 7 years ago

    I am happy to update guidelines / formats regarding this after some discussion / reasoning. AFAIR we discussed it previously, but there was no action taken.

    I am wondering a few things:

    * What is the ratio of numbers of releases of large hole to small hole 7", worldwide?

    * If large hole was the common format, did all the turntables in these countries just have an adapter or special centre spindle to accommodate them?
  • marcelrecords over 7 years ago


    nik
    If large hole was the common format

    Not in most parts of Western Europe. Most singles have either a ''tri'' or a solid centre. ''Large holes'' are very rare here.
  • Diognes_The_Fox over 7 years ago

    marcelrecords
    ''Large holes'' are very rare here.

    Quite the opposite state side. Small holes account for less than 1% of the records I see here. Actually, from what I've seen, it seems to be North America wide from what I've handled of both.

    nik
    did all the turntables in these countries just have an adapter or special centre spindle to accommodate them?

    Both. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwFJmmcs_9E These things exist. You'd load a stack of 45's onto it and it'd play them all automatically.

    For normal players, there are adapters, which I posted a good selection of in a previous post =3
  • rassel over 7 years ago

    marcelrecords
    Not in most parts of Western Europe. Most singles have either a ''tri'' or a solid centre. ''Large holes'' are very rare here.

    Hmm, AFAIK Switzerland is part of Western Europe. I've got just around 3% (U.K. import) singles with a solid center or small whole. All the others have a large hole, and yes, every turntable was sold with a centre spindle like
    - Technics SL 1210 (top left) http://www.finesound.nl/verkoop/images/1081452978-14946.jpg
    - Technics SL-BD22DE-K (top middle) http://www.preisvergleich.ch/pimages/Technics-Plattenspieler-SL-BD22DE-K_1109__315473_20.jpg
  • ubongo over 7 years ago


    marcelrecords
    Not in most parts of Western Europe. Most singles have either a ''tri'' or a solid centre. ''Large holes'' are very rare here.


    As far as I see, you live in The Netherlands and I don't know the specialities about the dutch 7 inch market, but from my view there are much more large hole 7" than the ones with a small hole in Western Europe. Most of those ones with small holes are from UK.

    As adaptors I use the single stars, which are still offered.
    http://www.protected.de/200/cgi-bin/shop.dll?SESSIONID=0950040724128485&AnbieterID=1
  • All-Vinyl-Experience over 7 years ago

    nik
    special centre spindle to accommodate them

    Quite a few turntables in the 60's up to those horrid 80's midi-stacks had a center that depressed when an LP or 7" with small hole went on to the deck, or supported an un-centered record. I have one at work and saves using an adaptor. Sort of auto-adaptor I guess.

    From a ...

    rassel
    country who drive on the left lane

    I may try the right side in the morning to see if I'm missing anything you guys are experience?!

  • rassel over 7 years ago

    All-Vinyl-Experience
    I may try the right side in the morning to see if I'm missing anything you guys are experience?!

    Hehe, you miss much fun here...
  • loukash over 7 years ago

    marcelrecords
    nik
    If large hole was the common format

    Not in most parts of Western Europe. Most singles have either a ''tri'' or a solid centre. ''Large holes'' are very rare here.

    What is "most parts"? :)
    It depends on the decade. In the 70s/80s I'd say that large holes became pretty much the standard, at least in the German markets.

    Czechoslovakia - Supraphon, Panton, Opus:

    • From early 1950s until 1975: knock-out center only (and mono as standard!)
    • From 1976 until early 1990s: large hole only (stereo as standard)
    • Mixed up: 1976 and later represses of pre-1975 releases came with a large hole instead of the original knock-out (I should have an original pressing of the same 7", but not handy right now).
  • marcelrecords over 7 years ago


    ubongo
    but from my view there are much more large hole 7" than the ones with a small hole in Western Europe.

    Looks like it depends on which era we're talking about.
    I checked 200 singles now, mostly from the EU continent and the UK, ranging from 1961 up till 1980. Almost all early ones have either a small hole with knock-out centre, or if they have a big one (many seem to do), the ''tri'' has been removed or the middle part has been knocked-out. Only a few from the USA have large holes. The younger the records are, the more large holes are among them, still not very many....
    That more or less is parallel to what loukash observes for CS singles.
  • swagski over 7 years ago

    swagski edited over 7 years ago
    Diognes_The_Fox
    If you needed large holes, you just pressed down in the center and popped that out.

    So, the Capitol Records thing you raised "Optional Centers"- that's the terminology thing I'm banging on about. You can't 'press down' on a Solid Center and 'pop it out'. That's (as I call it) a Knock-out Center, pre die-cut (3 or 4 slots). You would have to Hand-Dink a Solid Center.
    DakotaThrice
    At the same time we should also get an extra field added for packaging which has been frequently suggested

    Dink Topic aside: I think nik has begun Packaging consideration in Wiki.
    Here's something I began to add to the topic
    http://wiki.discogs.com/index.php/Talk:Packaging
    http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/205695
    marcelrecords
    Not in most parts of Western Europe. Most singles have either a ''tri'' or a solid centre. ''Large holes'' are very rare here.

    No offense, but again it gets confusing. "Tri-centers", I assume, is a ref to the center having 3 lugs. It doesn't matter that it is "Tri". (broadly that is, except to collectors of identical 3 & 4 lug issues) It is a Knock-out ie a pre-prepared center.
    "Large Holes" is subjective too. Again, it's a terminology thing that needs ironing out, so we all "sing from the same book". I don't mind what they're called, but to recap:
    1a) Knock-out Center, 3-lug
    1b) Knock-out Center, 4-lug [any other types?]
    1c) Knocked-out (Post-action, carried out on 1a or 1b)
    2) Solid Center [or 7mm Hole or Spindle Hole?]
    3) Dinked, or "Jukebox" [or 39mm Hole?]
    4) Hand-dinked (Post-action, carried out on 2)
    nik
    I am happy to update guidelines / formats regarding this after some discussion / reasoning.

    If folks could give alternate terms or lists & links as nik has suggested it would at least help formulate something. I know damn all about the history of 45s other than the shops I bought them from are no longer there.
    Autochanger, normal spindle, playing "Knocked-out" 45 with an adapter inserted:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4mwUU9yS2M&feature
    Autochanger, wide spindle, playing "Dinked" (or "Knocked-out") 45s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwFJmmcs_9E
  • Diognes_The_Fox over 7 years ago


    swagski
    Knock-out Center, pre die-cut (3 or 4 slots)

    Yes! Those! =D
  • marcelrecords over 7 years ago

    swagski
    "Tri-centers", I assume, is a ref to the center having 3 lugs.

    Mmm, I guess that is not what I mean. The majority of the singles I have in front of me is adorned with a separate plastic tripod with a small middle hole to make the record fit on the spindle. They are easily disattached without damage to the record for play with large hole adaptors and can be put into the the hole again after such use.
  • Curiopete over 7 years ago

    The term for the knock-out, tri-center, quad-center, optional center, or whatevercenter is called a spider, and has been called this since, at least, the 1960's.

    Here's another guy that supports the term:
    http://www.rockandrollblog.net/2009/08/12/why-do-45-rpm-records-have-big-holes/
  • loukash over 7 years ago

    loukash
    • Mixed up: 1976 and later represses of pre-1975 releases came with a large hole instead of the original knock-out (I should have an original pressing of the same 7", but not handy right now).

    OK, here's a 7" I've got in both versions, from 1974/1975, manufactured within a year:
    http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=1779305
    http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=2209423
    (note that even the preprinted picture sleeve is the same, only the overprinted letterpress track credit uses a different font…)
  • Staff 2.9k

    nik over 7 years ago

    Curiopete
    The term for the knock-out, tri-center, quad-center, optional center, or whatevercenter is called a spider, and has been called this since, at least, the 1960's.


    There are two different things:

    * Centres that are manufactured with small holes, plus a partial cut out the size of the large hole, that the user could 'knock out' if they wanted to play it in a jukebox etc.

    * Centres that are manufactured with large holes, and that came with a 'spider' insert to enable them to be played on a small-spindle turntable.
  • Staff 2.9k

    nik over 7 years ago

    ubongo
    but from my view there are much more large hole 7" than the ones with a small hole in Western Europe.


    marcelrecords
    Looks like it depends on which era we're talking about.


    I wish we could even make an educated guess as to which format is more common (by numbers of records produced), then we would at least have a starting point for the default size.
  • All-Vinyl-Experience over 7 years ago

    Well, I guess we go back to senoir
    swagski
    swagski


    1./Regular spindle hole
    2./Those with centers (tri-or quatro etc.)**
    3./Those that have been dinked*
    4./Jukebox issue.

    *I guess if this is the initial record that is listed, it would be more helpful if, in time any picture could be replaced with 1./ or 2./
    ** This need not be mentioned unless pertinent to a specific release where eg. Elvis UK releases on RCA pre 59 are worth more than the with tri centers than round centers.

    Only 4./ needs a drop down as 1./ assumed( this may be a left hand drive assumption?) 2/. In free text of format if applicable 3./ In sub notes for those to see if a replacement photo is needed.

  • DakotaThrice over 7 years ago

    All-Vinyl-Experience

    1./Regular spindle hole
    2./Those with centers (tri-or quatro etc.)**
    3./Those that have been dinked*
    4./Jukebox issue.

    *I guess if this is the initial record that is listed, it would be more helpful if, in time any picture could be replaced with 1./ or 2./
    ** This need not be mentioned unless pertinent to a specific release where eg. Elvis UK releases on RCA pre 59 are worth more than the with tri centers than round centers.

    Only 4./ needs a drop down as 1./ assumed( this may be a left hand drive assumption?) 2/. In free text of format if applicable 3./ In sub notes for those to see if a replacement photo is needed.


    In the case of 3 the pic should definatly not be replaced with one as taht would indicate a solid centre release which a dinkable record is not - it should instead if possible be replaced with an image of the undinked centre.

    As for 2 it should be mentioned for all or not at all, we can't just come a,ong and have a bias to expensive elvis records.

    As for dropdowns 2 and 4 are just as valid as 1. As for 3, there just a "damaged" variant of 2.
  • Staff 2.9k

    nik over 7 years ago

    Just having a wee chuckle to myself here - you know we try to keep things simple with the site, guidelines, data entry etc.. But look at the length of this thread!

    We are only discussing two different sized holes :-)
  • Staff 2.9k

    nik over 7 years ago

    7", Large Hole
    7", Small Hole
    7", Small Hole 4 Tag Knock-Out
    7", Small Hole 3 Tag Knock-Out

    Hmm, I suspect the knock out tags / sprockets could be something for the free text field, for when there are different versions (surely fairly rare?)
  • loukash over 7 years ago

    nik
    7", Large Hole

    Yes.
    nik
    7", Small Hole

    Not really necessary, a small hole is also default for 99.9999 % of 10"/12" releases.
    Unless we want to make sure that a submitter does include the hole format by presenting a warning when a hole tag is missing from a 7" submission.
    nik
    Hmm, I suspect the knock out tags / sprockets could be something for the free text field

    Agreed.
    '7", Knock-Out' should probably suffice
  • marcelrecords over 7 years ago

    Perhaps I am very slow comprehending, but this
    http://www.discogs.com/image/R-1411910-1217456946.jpeg
    and this:
    http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab239/lamasgbw/SatchmoITISALLINTHEGAME.jpg
    are different things, no?
    The first can only be knocked-out while damaging the record, the second does strictly spoken not belong to the record and can be put back without damage. Or are these somehow included in the survey above?
  • loukash over 7 years ago

    marcelrecords
    The first can only be knocked-out while damaging the record, the second does strictly spoken not belong to the record and can be put back without damage.

    Exactly.
    The first is a "Knock-Out"
    The second is a "Large Hole"

    However, there have existed "Large Hole" singles with a glued "spider" (or what it's called). You could remove them without actually damaging the vinyl, yet the original "spider" gets damaged nevertheless.
  • Diognes_The_Fox over 7 years ago

    I don't think the number of prongs the that the knockout attaches to is precisely important for the format field.
  • Diognes_The_Fox over 7 years ago

    Also, better place than any to document these proprietary 9" mutations with 2" center holes. D:

    http://www.discogs.com/Unknown-Artist-Mood-Music-Library/release/1710758
  • swagski over 7 years ago

    swagski edited over 7 years ago
    nik
    we try to keep things simple with the site, guidelines, data entry etc.. But look at the length of this thread!
    We are only discussing two different sized holes :-)

    Just to clarify again, I think there are actually 2 issues:
    A) Release Notes, comments, discussion, whatever, that we all use the same TERMINOLOGY for the 4 kinds of 45s we may have (as per my 1st 1-4 list).
    This terminology explained in the RSG (or linked to informative Wiki page). Especially useful in the buying/selling so there's no recourse through misunderstanding. e.g. between say "dinked' as a post-action and the true meaning Dinked as a manufacturing feature
    B) Whether there's a need for a reference (or references) in a drop-down. If so, in my opinion, only 1, 2 & 3 need be present and again, explained in RSG.

    EDIT: PS: Folks worldwide are thrown into Anglicisation here, so some 'Discogsionary' is surely needed...
  • ubongo over 7 years ago


    nik
    7", Large Hole
    7", Small Hole
    7", Small Hole 4 Tag Knock-Out
    7", Small Hole 3 Tag Knock-Out


    I think

    7", Large Hole
    7", Small Hole
    7", Small Hole Knock-Out

    is enough, 3 Tag or 4 Tag could be added in the free field
  • Diognes_The_Fox over 7 years ago

    ubongo


    7", Large Hole
    7", Small Hole
    7", Small Hole Knock-Out


    Seconded.
  • swagski over 7 years ago

    The problem I have with "Large Hole" is that this can be the RESULT of a post-action (knocked out or hand-dinked) OR an intention in manufacture. ie 3 interpretations*.
    1) Dinked is what it truly & technically IS
    2) Knock-out or Press-out or Push-out is what it truly & technically IS
    3) [the above refer to CENTERS] so, Solid Small Hole or Solid Spindle Hole

    *So, if Large Hole** is voted, then IMO we need to be able to append "Damaged" via a drop-down (buyer/seller-wise) e.g
    7" Holes; Large [this would be Dinked in manufacture]
    7" Holes; Small [this is a Solid]
    7" Holes; Knock-Out [this is a 3 or 4 slot die-cut, with 3 or 4 in FTF]
    7" Holes; Large Damaged [this is a hand-dinked]
    7" Holes; Knock-Out Damaged [this is pressed out]

    **I was going to suggest Big Bore - but realized that's me :)
  • Diognes_The_Fox over 7 years ago

    Useless Facts:
    Large Hole => 1.5"/~38mm Center
    Small Hole => 5/16"/~8mm Center

    swagski
    IMO we need to be able to append "Damaged" via a drop-down

    This should just be part of the notes for the item description. Unrelatedly, we need "Sealed Copy" under that dropdown though...
  • All-Vinyl-Experience over 7 years ago

    Not so sure about the "Damaged" bit. Surely this should go into notes on the submission? Only so that if there is a pic' then it can be replaced by a factory issue pic' rather than a personalised bastardised copy? Unless it happens to be part of a batch of miss-press stock (physical rather than musical) then it can go in the notes. Otherwise if we take this to the nth degree, every bit of vinyl we own is a unique piece as it will be covered in different DNA?!

  • loukash over 7 years ago

    All-Vinyl-Experience
    Not so sure about the "Damaged" bit. Surely this should go into notes on the submission?

    That has nothing to do with the release itself, this is only relevant to sellers and should be noted in the "Sell Item" description.

    As far as I'm concerned, all it needs is:

    7", Large Hole
    7", Knock-Out Hole


    … and we declare per guidelines the "Small Hole" the default attribute of the "Vinyl" tag.
  • swagski over 7 years ago

    swagski edited over 7 years ago
    Damaged...
    loukash
    this is only relevant to sellers and should be noted in the "Sell Item" description

    Yes, that's really what I was angling at. Agree.
    After much 'faffing' about in what's left of my brain...I blame the sex, rather than the drugs & rock n roll... I plump for:

    Large
    Small
    Optional

    or, for Small, go with...
    loukash
    … and we declare per guidelines the "Small Hole" the default attribute of the "Vinyl" tag.

    EDIT: And "3-lug" or "4-lug", if it's needed, in FTF.

    As an aside, there also needs to be a GUIDE accessible in/via RSG for all those TERMS with pix, like O.C., Dinked, Knock-out, Spiders, Adaptors, Plastic Thingies Wot Go In The Middle etc.
  • rassel over 7 years ago

    Hmm, I'm not really fond of this.

    When the 45RPM record was introduced in February 1949 by RCA Victor, it was introduced with a large center whole to accomodate the automatic chargers.

    See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramophone_record

    To me this is the standard and I would like to use this standard for 45RPM 7" singles.

    So Vinyl, Single should define a 45 RPM 7" Single with a large hole.

    Anything different as Small Hole, Small Hole Knock-Out, 33 1/3 RPM or whatever may be added.
  • Staff 2.9k

    nik over 7 years ago

    rassel
    When the 45RPM record was introduced in February 1949 by RCA Victor, it was introduced with a large center whole to accomodate the automatic chargers.


    I think that is a good point. If we were to go against that, I think we'd need to be sure that the small hole was clearly more widespread in terms of numbers pressed than the small hole. This is going to take some specialist knowledge to find out.

    Whilst I am here, I am unsure of 'Knock-Out' and 'Dinked' as good terms to use on submissions. I think 'Knock out' can be misunderstood (is it a small hole, or a big one?), and 'dinked' AFAIAA is a terms used when a small hole is converted to a large one.
  • rassel over 7 years ago

    FWIW:

    Originally, the 45 RPM record was introduced as a longer play version of the 78 RPM discs. The first 45 RPM records were monaural, with recordings on both sides of the disc. Produced in several sizes, the 7", large hole version became the most popular.

    from http://en.allexperts.com/e/s/si/single_%28music%29.htm
  • swagski over 7 years ago

    swagski edited over 7 years ago
    Just stumbled across these in same sub.
    Identical, except the first image is an "Optional Center" or "Knock-out"
    (e.g. if the center were pushed out, leaving a Large Hole, then the 'notches' left would be visible)
    http://www.discogs.com/image/R-1379438-1261821307.jpeg
    This 2nd image is Dinked (e.g. It has been manufactured with a Large Hole).
    http://www.discogs.com/image/R-1379438-1265234078.jpeg
    nik
    Whilst I am here, I am unsure of 'Knock-Out' and 'Dinked' as good terms to use on submissions. I think 'Knock out' can be misunderstood (is it a small hole, or a big one?)

    It is either. That's why I am now suggesting Optional (as earlier comment)
    nik
    and 'dinked' AFAIAA is a terms used when a small hole is converted to a large one.

    That's actually Hand-dinked (e.g a solid or small hole that's converted). Dinked is a manufacturing term for a single released with a large hole

    EDIT; PS: The Dinked image is NOT a 'slightly oversized large hole' in case somebody suggests this. Note the radial marks thru the logo, compared to the optional center. It is a different substrate shape under the paper label.

    PPS: I'm an old UK hoarder, so... 90% of my 45s are not Dinked;
    60% are 4-lug Optionals, 10% are 3-lug Optionals, 30% are Solids or small hole.
    10% are Dinked (as in manufactured). However, I've no objection to Dinked (or Large Hole) being the "default" for vinyl - if that's the consensus and we all use the same terminology.
  • swagski over 7 years ago

    I just subbed a Small Hole & a Dinked for same release in UK
    (Links too for same release in the MR):
    UK Solid Toto - Africa
    UK Dinked Toto - Africa
    UK Solid Toto - Africa
    French Dinked Toto - Africa (Original Version)
    USA Dinked Toto - Africa
    Portugal Dinked Toto - Africa
    USA reissue Dinked Toto - Africa
  • All-Vinyl-Experience over 7 years ago

    Sorry guys but I see
    swagski
    UK Solid Toto - Africa

    swagski
    UK Solid
    Toto - Africa

    as the norm and I know all the dinked issues as Jukebox issue which is common language for UK dealers/collectors and R.C.Magazine. Regardless of whether done by prev. owner or factory.
    swagski
    90% of my 45s are not Dinked
    - pretty much the same here.

    rassel
    When the 45RPM record was introduced in February 1949 by RCA Victor, it was introduced with a large center whole to accomodate the automatic chargers

    This might be the case, but things have moved on and I'd think that most EU 7" production has a regular spindle hole since the fifties to date, embedded in solid and lugged formats. Not many folk say "I'm flying to ... by aircraft", using the vernacular, "plane" as the norm.
    Apologies...
    Shonky analogy but trying to be clear, or plain in my thoughts?!

  • All-Vinyl-Experience over 7 years ago

    Sorry, 'nother thing. I don't mean this to be a US/EU divide, but looking at prev. posts we're used to having a different diet by the looks of things.
    Chips & Ketchup or with Mayonnaise anyone?
  • rassel over 7 years ago

    All-Vinyl-Experience
    This might be the case, but things have moved on and I'd think that most EU 7"

    This can't be true, as I've got 7" from
    - Germany
    - France
    - Italy
    and all are "dinked" as you say except some very rare old stuff from the fifties or sixties or some flexi-discs.
    The only small wholes I've got are the U.K. 7" singles, manufactured in the U.K.

  • Staff 2.9k

    nik over 7 years ago

    nik
    and 'dinked' AFAIAA is a terms used when a small hole is converted to a large one.


    swagski
    That's actually Hand-dinked (e.g a solid or small hole that's converted). Dinked is a manufacturing term for a single released with a large hole


    Are there any citations for 'Dinked' being a manufacturing term? Any citations for this term being used by collectors / the general public outside of the UK for a manufactured large hole single?

    My feeling is 'Dinked' by it's nature implies something happens / is done to create the large hole. AFAIAA the large hole 7" are manufactured this way, they don't make a small hole 7" then cut out the middle.

    I'm not convinced.

    swagski
    90% of my 45s are not Dinked


    All-Vinyl-Experience
    pretty much the same here.


    Me too, but we are all AFAIK in the UK. Although obviously the UK is an important place regarding music / records culture, it isn't the only place, and Discogs needs to take a worldwide view. I think if you went to the USA, Jamaica, or any other place which has the large hole as standard, and started talking about 'Dinked' records and 'jukebox' versions, you'd get some funny looks.
  • swagski over 7 years ago

    nik
    My feeling is 'Dinked' by it's nature implies something happens / is done to create the large hole. AFAIAA the large hole 7" are manufactured this way, they don't make a small hole 7" then cut out the middle.

    Agree. "Dinked" is a "State" in which the issue exists.
    How the 'pressing' of this is achieved is an interesting point.
    Was the demand for 'wide spindle' in UK so small that plants dinked a portion of the run? If so these would be solids that were dinked.
    There are Knock-outs & Dinks available in the same time-frame, so it is likely that the dinked were part of the 'press' process. When knock-outs were 'phased out' it would seem logical (to me) that 2 cutters would exist. One that would stamp out a 7" radius with a small hole, the other that would stamp out a 7" radius with a large hole - thus covering any 'market demand'.
    swagski
    Just taking the UK's "Track Records" cat# for 7" releases between 1967 & 1969 -
    (For pages that had available images) I was surprised to find most UKs were Dinked

    As I realised here, Dinked (or Wide Spindle or Large Hole) probably is the best 'default' for 7" vinyl.
    nik
    I think if you went to the USA, Jamaica, or any other place which has the large hole as standard, and started talking about 'Dinked' records and 'jukebox' versions, you'd get some funny looks

    Agree. Colloquial terminology is not too good. Although I still think "Hole" is a bit subjective.
    Why not a specific for the default? Use what it is: Wide Spindle.

  • Staff 2.9k

    nik over 7 years ago

    Looks like the hole is there when the vinyl is made, the only process after pressing is to trim the edge.

    You can see a 7" press near the end of this vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=molqV4L23FM

    Thinking about it, it would be quite wasteful to have to press out the middle for every record, as the vinyl would be contaminated with the paper label so hard to reuse.

    It would also be time consuming and prone to error to have to find the center of each record.

    swagski
    "Dinked" is a "State" in which the issue exists.


    I don't agree with this though. The word "Dinked" makes me think it is referring to an extra process where the bigger hole was added (the "ed" making it in the past, something that happened, not a state of being). I don't think this is industry terminology for a record that is pressed with a large hole. Just to make that clear :-)

    swagski
    Why not a specific for the default? Use what it is: Wide Spindle.


    Sorry to be pedantic, but the spindle is wot fit's through the hole, innit. The hole is the hole.
  • rassel over 7 years ago

    To be very pedantic, we should probably mention, that there were several sizes of center holes in the time:

    Early on, some 78 rpm records had larger holes to skirt patents. Standard Records had a half-inch hole, United had a one-inch hole and the largest, Aeolian had a three-inch hole, which would be resurrected some 40 years later for the Holy Bible Old and New Testaments produced at 16 RPM by the Audio Book Company of St. Joseph Michigan. The rarest edition comes with a fibreboard insert to adapt the 3-inch hole of the vinylite discs to a standard phonograph hole.
    From http://wapedia.mobi/en/Unusual_types_of_gramophone_records#4.

    So why can't we just name the different center holes by it's diameters?
  • Curiopete over 7 years ago

  • swagski over 7 years ago

    swagski edited over 7 years ago
    nik
    I don't agree with this though. The word "Dinked" makes me think it is referring to an extra process where the bigger hole was added

    That is what I meant by a 'state' in which it IS. It being 'dinked' could imply that it is both Dinked and Hand-dinked. A 'state' created by either the manufacturer (professional & intentional) or the amateur (either to a solid, or incorrectly employed to refer to a 'knocked-out' copy).
    nik
    Sorry to be pedantic, but the spindle is wot fit's through the hole, innit. The hole is the hole.

    Good point...see below
    rassel
    So why can't we just name the different center holes by it's diameters?

    Good point.

    Also, as providing an image is not mandatory, I think it best to have ALL center descripts in a drop-down. This draws attention to the subject and the choice. Whatever 'we' decide is the 'default' then needs explaining in RSG.

    EDIT: Subject just caused me probs here The Who - Join Together
  • rassel over 7 years ago

    Not sure, but it seems the diameters are the following:

    - 9/32" (small hole)
    - 11/2" (big hole)

    To be honest these diameters are emmm.. a little bit unusual for people living in metric countries, as long as you are not a plumber.

    And here's a nice site with good info about the spindle holes
    http://78rpmrecord.com/spindlehole.htm
  • swagski over 7 years ago

    swagski edited over 7 years ago
    When I raised this topic I hadn't even considered anything beyond 7"/45s
    rassel
    Early on, some 78 rpm records had larger holes to skirt patents. Standard Records had a half-inch hole, United had a one-inch hole and the largest, Aeolian had a three-inch hole, which would be resurrected some 40 years later

    Topic Round up for 7"...
    rassel
    Not sure, but it seems the diameters are the following:
    - 9/32" (small hole)
    - 11/2" (big hole)

    Diognes_The_Fox
    Useless Facts:
    Large Hole => 1.5"/~38mm Center
    Small Hole => 5/16"/~8mm Center

    swagski
    2) Solid Center [or 7mm Hole or Spindle Hole?]
    3) Dinked, or "Jukebox" [or 39mm Hole?]

    Meanwhile...
    nik
    Thinking about it, it would be quite wasteful to have to press out the middle for every record, as the vinyl would be contaminated with the paper label so hard to reuse.
    It would also be time consuming and prone to error to have to find the center of each record.

    On injection-print 'solids' there is usually no print on the substrate, so if they are post-dinked there would be no contamination?
    Further thought... I can't imagine a 'Dinking procedure' being carried out in plant without some form of 'tracking reference' being present on the product e.g. A 'kiss-press' identity* performed by the dinking mechanism upon the run-out area? (I would also imagine that the 'small hole' in production is used as an 'alignment guide' - as in the diameter-cutting?).
    *Still early days for BAOI, so as yet I can't find the same issue, dinked & 'undinked' with run-out info for both.

    EDIT: 2 more recent 'identical' issue examples:
    http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=1943373
    http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=845959

    http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=2218838
    http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=960927

  • funky_kitchen over 7 years ago

    like sechtle wrote...
    I think this could be a good resume for 7"s worldwide releases:

    WE CAN ASSUME LARGE HOLE AS DEFAULT FORMAT because they are the most popular 7"s produced (large hole was the rule in USA & Italy; in the rest of Western Europe we found more large hole than small; small hole was the rule only in UK and in the early pressing on East Europe)

    a) 7" (Solid Centre) for all the releases with small hole
    [than in the notes we can specify what kind of solid center is and if it was removed by past owners, it's easy to verify]

    b) 7" (Option-centre) for all the releases with removable center
    [than in the notes we can specify if tri-quatro]

    c) 7" (Jukebox) for all the vinyls released for juke boxe machine (NOT turntable, but Juke Boxe). In italy were pressed thousands of this kind of vinyls from the 1960 to 2000 about.

    All the Digged Solid Centre (with the centre cutted out) are damaged vinyls because not release originally as Large Hole.

    to know something more about real Juke Box vinyls please read this:
    http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/206659
  • swagski over 7 years ago

    Thanks funky_kitchen > Your 'jukebox' topic actually gains impetus in thread here http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/206659#2611817
    IMO It's really a 'jukebox side issue' regarding 'what is on' a release that has a wide spindle hole. That jukebox hole-size is the same as that for wide spindle turntable-play. (38/39mm)

    Thus, as you suggest, if "Wide Spindle" is default, it covers jukeboxes & turntables in most areas outside UK.
    So can we agree, in principal, the following?...

    CENTER HOLE:
    a) "Wide Spindle" or "38mm" = default. (Still required in drop-down, for use on 'non-45s' as per comment rassel http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/208082#2592261 along with any other sizes not as follows...)

    b) "Narrow Spindle", "Solid Center" or "7mm" = mainly for UK releases/whatever.

    c) "Die-cut Center", "Option Center" or "Knock-out Center" (There is also a possibility, as this has a 7mm hole, that we could refer to it as "D-7" or "O-7" or "K-7" - the initial relating to the preference for "Die", "Option" or "Knock" respectively? eg 3 digits)

    Regarding application of this format it would be useful if it were mandatory if a disc image is not submitted at the same time, but used with common sense otherwise - especially retrospectively
  • makbo over 7 years ago

    funky_kitchen
    like sechtle wrote...
    I think this could be a good resume for 7"s worldwide releases:

    WE CAN ASSUME LARGE HOLE AS DEFAULT FORMAT because they are the most popular 7"s produced (large hole was the rule in USA & Italy; in the rest of Western Europe we found more large hole than small; small hole was the rule only in UK and in the early pressing on East Europe)

    Isn't that the opposite of what schtel wrote?
    schtel
    I think we can assume that all 7"s on the database on 'solid centre', unless specified otherwise. So if a user has a Dinked or Knock-out then submit as a unique submission and mention in FTF.

    Although very late to this thread, everything Diognes_The_Fox said rings true in my experience with US-released 7-inch.
  • schtel over 7 years ago

    Well I suggest the the 'solid' 7"s are default format because this is how all vinyl is produced whether it's 12", 10" or 7". Also, in my experience, this is the most common, but I'm seeing that this depends on what era and country you are from. And in that sense, and format tags should encompass these differences between countries.

    Also was the 7" specifically designed for the Jukebox? Or did this usage come later? And that's why they started to produce them with the large hole? If so then I feel the Solid should still be the default, perhaps?
  • loukash over 7 years ago

    schtel
    Well I suggest the the 'solid' 7"s are default format because this is how all vinyl is produced whether it's 12", 10" or 7".

    Agreed.
  • swagski over 7 years ago

    Maybe, as views are polarized from 38mm to 7mm as being default, there should be NO default*?
    I must agree with schtel though, that all the LPs I'm looking at have 7mm holes. We have wandered from 45s into the land of 'LPs' for the sake of maybe a few exceptions, that a 38mm in drop-down would solve.
    *however, it's no more of a problem to add a 'hole size', as it is to add 'diameter' for a vinyl recording?

    • 7mm (Suggestion: Taken 'as read'/default for 45s in UK?)
    • 38mm (Suggestion: Taken 'as read'/default for 45s in Europe / US?)
    • Option (3 or 4 lugs probably not critical. Although could be; Option3; Option4)
    • RSG for their existence / country history / format deployment** in site.
    **latter especially 'important' if not posting a pic.

    This thread is a bit like a UK 'hung Parliament' at the moment.
    nik's attention probably started to wane about here http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/208082#2587859
    Can we try and dink the ball in the net PDQ please? Cheers.
  • swagski over 7 years ago

    Rejuvenating this topic again, I am suddenly made aware of the importance placed upon the 'lugs' (or 'spokes') present upon UK 'knock-outs' by this comment I found;

    "Middles (or Centers) on ALL Parlophone Singles & EP's with 4 SPOKES are 1st pressings. Solid middles are circa May 1968 onwards. "Lady Madonna" and the 5 APPLE singles are scarcer with 4 spoke middles. "Hey Jude" & Mary Hopkin's "Those Were The Days" were APPLE'S first 2 releases. Due to their enormous success, EMI commissioned PHILIPS to press a quantity of these 2 issues. These can be recognized by their characteristic of having 3 spoke centers. These examples are scarce".

    So, other than the subject of the 'holes' themselves, the "Option 3" or "Option 4" I mention (in post above) may be critical (UK arena particularly) to submissions?

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