• glue79 over 7 years ago

    Personally I'm really frustrated by the amount of bootlegs that are now being produced and sold here on Discogs. It seems endless this supply and though some might like to think the bootleggers are doing everyone a service offering them rare records at an affordable price often the quality is extremely poor. Here are some examples

    http://www.discogs.com/Signus-Black-Hole/release/3227489

    http://www.discogs.com/Billy-Woost-Billy-Woost/release/2575664

    http://www.discogs.com/Chris-Craft-Discosmic-Dance/release/2519050

    Recent reissues such as those on Priv4te are no better sadly..

    http://www.discogs.com/label/Private+Records+%282%29

    Regardless of the fact that these bootlegs and replicas to me feel like a shameless way to cash in on the interest in this music. Regardless of the fact that the bootlegers might like to think of themselves as serving the musicians and the public in general, should Discogs be allowing sales of bootlegged and such poor replicas copies to be sold here?

    Over to you!

  • Jayfive over 7 years ago

    glue79
    should Discogs be allowing sales of bootlegged and such poor replicas copies to be sold here?


    Yes. This is a non-issue frankly. They exist, so discogs documents them and allows people to sell them. If buyers know they are boots and are of poor quality, they can choose not to buy. Its when bootlegs are being sold under full release entriesthat theres problems

    The problem lies with the bootleggers themselves, not people getting rid of their copy or shops who have them. If that were the case we'd be getting rid of everything that had some sort of copyright issue from the database.

    If you see someone who is clearly creating bootleggers solely to sell on discogs, then is the time to alert discogs.

    Likewise if a copyright owner wishes to contact discogs such items, they are free to do so just as they would with ebay or the like.
  • zevulon over 7 years ago

    If they are clearly marked as Unofficial/Bootlegs, I see no harm.
    I'd never buy one of these anyway, as they are often, of very poor quality.

    Had they been sold under the disguise of the actual release's page, than it'd be a fraud.
    I once bought an Orbital album through Music Stack, and it was sold as "the real thing" - I did however, get my money back.

    Some people might even collect these bootlegs for various reasons.

    Do also consider the French (or Dutch) picture disc "label":

    Not On Label (PICT Series)

    A lot of these records have a really bad sound, whereas others, are OK.
    Most of the tracks presented where never even pressed on any official vinyl.
    Heck, they weren't even issued officially on CD!
    (Reasons for me still buying those...and because of the artwork ;)

    As long as it's official that they are Unofficial/bootlegs, it's OK IMO.

    A lot of original vinyls are of semi-standard as they were issued, and never ever met up to a listening quality higher than vg+;

    Harthouse 12"s og the 90s
    Jamaican vinyl pressings in general, etc
  • gboe over 7 years ago

    gboe edited over 7 years ago
    glue79
    Regardless of the fact that the bootlegers might like to think of themselves as serving the musicians and the public in general, should Discogs be allowing sales of bootlegged and such poor replicas copies to be sold here?

    This is an old discussion on Discogs - and from what I can find in the Forum archives, Discogs does actively prohibit sales of such items upon request from the rights owners, artists or labels.

    Only fair to do so. Could be more fair though. It should be the other way around. All unofficial releases should be assumed not legally sellable - unless rights owners specifically allows it.

    For some reason many people wanting to buy or sell bootlegs operates a double standard failing to admit musical rights owners the same rights as architects, car-designers and other rights-owners. They seem to see musicians and labels as the only entities without rights over their work. They will argue that what they are doing is in some kind of interest of the artist, harmless, a cultural democratization movement almost to a level where they see the distribution of the stolen asset as an saviour-like act. Funny enough, the argument always comes from the benefitters of the sale of unofficial or illegal items. I would like to hear Bob Dylan or other often bootlegged artists to come out in a strong defence for bootlegging in general before I find it fair to lend an ear to the pro-argument from some basement bootlegger or seller.

    Moral goes before business - records business or any business. If I'm a taxidriver, I should stop the car if I know I'm taking the the passenger to a burglary. I think I might have release listed for sale that are illegal - as some promos are hard to tell from bootlegs. If any can point to such an object, I'll gladly unlist it.

    When it comes to documenting - it's another thing. Registrating illegal stuff is not giving the illegal actions a helping hand.

    But - this is an old discussion in forums like this. Don't expect changes. But nice to know that there are people in defence of the artists.
  • schtel over 7 years ago

    From what I understand, bootlegs are illegal, and making money of the sale of bootlegs is illegal too. I'm not too sure on the specific laws of that though? Maybe it's similar to selling ivory, where you need to be certified?

    Am I right in think that a bottleg could be made today and sold on discogs tomorrow? That would be a good business, multiple accounts and all that. :P
  • zevulon over 7 years ago

    zevulon edited over 7 years ago
    schtel

    Am I right in think that a bottleg could be made today and sold on discogs tomorrow? That would be a good business, multiple accounts and all that. :P

    Not On Label (PICT Series)
    >>
    Madonna feat. Nicki Minaj & M.I.A. (2) - Give Me All Your Luvin' (Part 1)
  • djmpd1992 over 7 years ago

    i have lot of unofficial/bootlegs most of the time i cant get the original or people charging a fortune for the original which about choice, also if you think about it second hand sales the people who made the records originally get nothing from the profit which is more or less the same
  • Jayfive over 7 years ago


    schtel
    From what I understand, bootlegs are illegal, and making money of the sale of bootlegs is illegal too. I'm not too sure on the specific laws of that though?


    Jayfive
    Likewise if a copyright owner wishes to contact discogs such items, they are free to do so just as they would with ebay or the like.


    schtel
    Am I right in think that a bottleg could be made today and sold on discogs tomorrow?


    Those who make bootlegs *JUST* to sell them ogs get banned.

    Is the case of these:
    zevulon
    Not On Label (PICT Series)
    >>
    Madonna feat. Nicki Minaj & M.I.A. (2) - Give Me All Your Luvin' (Part 1)

    Its clear from teh proliferation of sellers that there arent just homemade for sale on ogs.
  • schtel over 7 years ago

    @ Jayfive, are you saying it's only determined illigal if the copyright holder makes the proper complaint in a civil court? Or is it not still a criminal offence regardless?
    zevulon
    Madonna feat. Nicki Minaj & M.I.A. (2) - Give Me All Your Luvin' (Part 1)

    3 sellers have mutiple copies...mmm
    I don't really mind what bootleggers get up to, but I don't think discogs should continue to make money in this kind of way. IMO
  • zevulon over 7 years ago


    Jayfive
    just homemade for sale on ogs.

    Well, they are bootlegs of questionnable quality, and I think that the actual provider, "Home Made" in the kitchen or at a plant, has left Discogs, cause the heat was catching on, but was indeed once here.

    As it became lucrative, I guess like most heroin sellers, the actual dirty deed gets carried out by "smaller fishes".

    I really don't get your point. It's the very same thing anyhow.
  • zevulon over 7 years ago

    schtel
    3 sellers have mutiple copies...mmm
    I don't really mind what bootleggers get up to, but I don't think discogs should continue to make money in this kind of way. IMO

    Yes - how odd.

    Juno sells most of them as well, but has disguised them by the title as Artist.

    A lot of these are also distributed by legit distributors, and are by no means stated as Bootlegs, but as by the Original artist.
    I know this was at least true regarding the Madonna album Picture Discs that suddenly flooded the market some years ago
    >> Madonna - Madonna

    I've seen the actual distrubotor lists for these at two different shops.
    One shop wanted to believe that they were "The Real Thing".
    and the other understood instantly that they were fake, and was "I don't understand how they have the guts to just sell boots of a major artist like Madonna like that".
  • schtel over 7 years ago

    The last record shop* in my city closed down a month or so ago, the owner blamed it on the Internet. I guess the bootleggers won't mind; perhaps their market has just got wider?

    1 specific secondhand shop left, aka reallygood. :)
  • schtel over 7 years ago

    zevulon
    "I don't understand how they have the guts to just sell boots of a major artist like Madonna like that".

    ...eh, possibly for the amount of money involved? :P
  • Emerald_Blues over 7 years ago

    Just the same what has happened with Equinox (12) CDs.

    http://www.discogs.com/Equinox-Auf-Wiedersehen/release/2373884

    http://www.discogs.com/Equinox-The-Way-To-Go/release/1158726

    http://www.discogs.com/Equinox-Xerox-Success/release/1902702

    http://www.discogs.com/Equinox-Labyrinth/release/1903439

    I had open an SR on this, with enough proof of pirate copies.

    But the reply I got from Disogs, were that they didn't it was enough and they basicly give a damn, so long as they get sales.

    Discogs is not a site for collectors just for selling, especially when they doesn't take this bootleg/fake CD production. But they are liable for US prosecution if they get an law suite, when it it sold outside of US.

    Discogs and Jayfive have wrong attidude how this should be handled, but they accept bootleggers as seller doesn't have to prove its a bootleg!

    But I attempted to buy some of the bootlegs and make an support request, as they are sold as originals. If this way to prove it, completely wrong.

    I have stopped submitting items to Discogs, just to avoid submitting items that will be misued as bootlegs in the future. I have loads of rare CDs thats not listed yet.

  • Diognes_The_Fox over 7 years ago


    Emerald_Blues
    But I attempted to buy some of the bootlegs and make an support request, as they are sold as originals. If this way to prove it, completely wrong.

    I have stopped submitting items to Discogs, just to avoid submitting items that will be misued as bootlegs in the future. I have loads of rare CDs thats not listed yet.


    There's a difference between selling identified bootlegs and selling bootlegs under the guise of real releases. Those are against the rules.
  • Jayfive over 7 years ago

    schtel
    @ Jayfive, are you saying it's only determined illigal if the copyright holder makes the proper complaint in a civil court? Or is it not still a criminal offence regardless?


    No, im saying that that is all discogs and thereby us need to care about.

    All bootlegs, white labels with uncleared samples, unofficial remixes, white label of compiled rare tracks and all sorts of these things are technically 'illegal'. As are all the mix cds/tapes with tracks used without permission. And are we weighed down with take-down notice or cease and desist orders? No AFAIK, though you could ask discogs how regularly they get them.

    Emerald_Blues
    Just the same what has happened with Equinox (12) CDs.


    No, not 'just the same' at all. The items under discussion bootlegs correctly submitted to the database. Not people apparently selling bootleg copies under the legi release entry. Yours is a unique release issue, not a unofficial release issue.

    Emerald_Blues
    I had open an SR on this, with enough proof of pirate copies.


    No....you provided proof that bootlegs copies exist. We've *been* through this.

    Emerald_Blues
    Discogs is not a site for collectors just for selling, especially when they doesn't take this bootleg/fake CD production. But they are liable for US prosecution if they get an law suite, when it it sold outside of US.


    No, no-one is just going to get prosecuted. What will happen, what always happens, is that a label/artist/other copyright owner will request that copies of said item be prevented from being sold. This has happened.

    But most of the time they simply go after the bootleggers themselves which IMO is a far more sensible method. Whether these things are on discogs or not they still already exist and will simply be sold elsewhere.

    Emerald_Blues
    Discogs and Jayfive have wrong attidude how this should be handled, but they accept bootleggers as seller doesn't have to prove its a bootleg!


    No, whats happening is youre in a huff because everyone wont just take your word for things.

    And I have no 'attitude', I am simply relaying hat discogs do in these cases. Personally I think bootleggers are thieving scum. Particularly these ratbags who sell DVDs of 1000s of old skool tracks on ebay. I went after on person profiting in terms of both fame and money from the music of others for several years. But my personal feelings do not intrude in this matter. And I would appreciate if you do not attempt to discredit me or tell me off every time the subject of bootlegs comes up.

    I would also appareciate if you DO NOT associate me with discogs in such a way. My opinions do not match or represent theirs and making just a direct link is considerably more dangerous that you appear to realise.

    Emerald_Blues
    But I attempted to buy some of the bootlegs and make an support request, as they are sold as originals. If this way to prove it, completely wrong.


    Once again you show you do not understand the concept that no-one will remove things simply on your say-so. I could equally claim that any of the things you were selling was a homemade bootleg.

    Emerald_Blues
    I have stopped submitting items to Discogs,


    Yes, so you keep saying. And thats your perogative, but no-one is going to go 'please come back, we'll change things if you come' every time you push this agenda over a handful of releases.
  • Emerald_Blues over 7 years ago


    Diognes_The_Fox
    There's a difference between selling identified bootlegs and selling bootlegs under the guise of real releases. Those are against the rules.


    Equinox bootlegs is identified bootlegs by other, seems not by Discogs so far.
  • Eviltoastman over 7 years ago

    I personally have issues with Discogs actively making a profit from racist records and boots. I acknowledge and support them being on the database but I have strong feelings on their sale and even stronger feelings on Discogs profiting from those sales.
  • PabloPlato over 7 years ago


    zevulon
    I once bought an Orbital album through Music Stack, and it was sold as "the real thing" - I did however, get my money back.


    was it Brown 2xLP?
  • glue79 over 7 years ago

    Interesting comments here. Curious to hear what Discogs guys have to say on the issue. Can they really justify allowing the sale of what are in essence counterfeit goods.

    Sellers like to list them as Reissues but the simple fact is that these are bootlegs, Here are some more I could find..

    http://www.discogs.com/Krono-Krono/release/738194

    http://www.discogs.com/A-Mislayene-Y%C3%A9mma-El-Fen/release/3014927
  • gboe over 7 years ago

    djmpd1992
    i have lot of unofficial/bootlegs most of the time i cant get the original or people charging a fortune for the original

    Uh - If I just don't feel like paying what Rolex charges for a watch- is it then OK to start producing fake copies/buy fake copies?
    djmpd1992
    also if you think about it second hand sales the people who made the records originally get nothing from the profit which is more or less the same

    Not at all the same thing. If a musician sells 1000 copies of a release, he/she get's the apropriate royalties for a 1000 copies. The rights in that case is connected to the copy. You can hum the tunes, play the record - but you cannot extend the rights to further use, performing it live e.g. without paying more royalties. If you sell a copy - you pass the users right over to someone else. Still a 1000 copy-holders have users rights. If the record becomes a hit - there's only a 1000 copies out there on the market - and musicians market hasn't become less over the second-hand selling of the release. If in the mean-time someone has made a bnootleg and sold another 1000 copies. If then the musician plans a re-issue, he can sell number of copies wanted on the market - minus the 1000 copies som jerk supplied. Not the same thing.
    That there are Mercedes sold as used cars doesn't justify Chrysler in making copies.
  • blitstikler over 7 years ago

    So, hypothetically, if discogs were to take some sort of action against the selling of bootlegs, would it be fair to cover people who are selling them second hand? Like, if I were to sell my private collection and wanted to sell my bootlegs would that be included? How can you differentiate second hand sellers from the actual manufacturers?
  • blitstikler over 7 years ago


    gboe
    gboe wrote:
    Uh - If I just don't feel like paying what Rolex charges for a watch- is it then OK to start producing fake copies/buy fake copies?


    The only difference I see here is that in many cases the original copies of these records did not sell for 300 dollars each. They originally cost under 20.
  • Jayfive over 7 years ago

    blitstikler
    How can you differentiate second hand sellers from the actual manufacturers?


    There are ways.

    They are the only person selling it, and are the only owner AND the person who submitted it, and its in mint condition. And very rare/collectable. And they did nothing else on discogs besides submit/sell such items.

    blitstikler
    Like, if I were to sell my private collection and wanted to sell my bootlegs would that be included?


    You'd be fine.
  • nerdfly over 7 years ago


    Eviltoastman
    I personally have issues with Discogs actively making a profit from racist records


    if you are talking only about music made after racism was made illegal in many countries (in some countries it isn't) then fair enough but you must bear in mind there is a wealth of older music that you just can't remove without erasing history.
  • Eviltoastman over 7 years ago

    I think I made it pretty clear that the addition of the releases to the database is not the issue.
  • Jayfive over 7 years ago


    Eviltoastman
    I think I made it pretty clear that the addition of the releases to the database is not the issue.


    You did. But hey, at least you havent made some video about how discogs is a front for race-hate groups :P
  • zevulon over 7 years ago


    schtel
    ...eh, possibly for the amount of money involved? :P

    Yes, of course, but through a regular and official distribution?
    That is very easy to check, unless they give away the boots for free, which they don't.
  • zevulon over 7 years ago


    PabloPlato
    was it Brown 2xLP?

    Exactly. Lousy pressing with lots of flaws/bubbles.
  • ChrisCrass over 7 years ago


    Eviltoastman
    I personally have issues with Discogs actively making a profit from racist records and boots.


    Second that!
  • brunorepublic over 7 years ago

    The problem with banning counterfeits -- and don't get me wrong, I loathe them too -- is that people will still sell them anyway, and just put in the description that it's a "reissue" (ugh, how I hate it when that term is misused in that way). I'd rather have them identified as what they really are.

    The problem with banning titles based on objectionable content is that it's a very slippery slope. You want to ban racist records? Well, you might be surprised at what would qualify. The Rolling Stone's "Brown Sugar" has a line that many people would consider quite objectionable. We Like To Boogie is an innocuous disco track, but the b-side track is quite unflattering to Hispanics. So where do you draw the line between what is a "race-hate" record and something that's just insensitive/ignorant/inappropriate by today's standards? While we're at it, there are countless examples of extreme misogyny in hip-hop, and violent homophobia in reggae. Shouldn't all those go too? Who gets to decide what releases should be banned from the site? What would be the process for determining what is appropriate and what is not?
  • PabloPlato over 7 years ago


    zevulon
    Exactly. Lousy pressing with lots of flaws/bubbles.


    yikes. sorry to hear that, thank god i got myself a copy just before those boots started making the rounds - it very easily could have happened to me.
  • PabloPlato over 7 years ago


    Jayfive
    at least you havent made some video about how discogs is a front for race-hate groups :P


    lol really? is it who i'm thinking of - that native guy? link please :)
  • transmutation over 7 years ago

    lol racist bootlegs.

    if DISCOGS "actively" making profit from racism and ripping off artists is genuinely a problem to you, then, my friend, may i suggest rethinking your relationship with the music industry period, not to mention the entirety of western civilization lol..

    honestly, i find some of the ideas in this thread scary.. unauthorized sampling, remixing and even bootlegging have always been a integral part of the development of dance & hiphop music culture..

    and i must say its nice to know discogs is based in the US, where we can say and SELL any kind of nonsense no matter how vile & stupid it may be..



  • transmutation over 7 years ago

    what i meant to say is that these problems are completely insignificant when compared to the countless amounts of healing and inspiration provided by the music bought, sold & discovered on this site.

    the amount some rare used records go for is im sure, WAY more than some of the session musicians even got paid to create it to begin with... so it goes... their spirit lives and thrives due to a place like this...

    what would dance music be like without Ultimate breaks & beats?

    anyways, just wanted to put in my 2 pennies and say discogs policy is just fine how it is.
  • ChampionJames over 7 years ago

    ChampionJames edited over 7 years ago
    PabloPlato
    lol really? is it who i'm thinking of - that native guy? link please :)

    Ah, yes, that bit of cinematic treasure, with its disturbing juxtaposition of febrile racial rhetoric and scenes of beachcombing lovers at sunset, can be found here, due to the infamous TheOldeRecordCabin affair, co-starring Jayfive and myself:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seCQZ4Dk5Qo&feature=plcp&context=C44a67b9VDvjVQa1PpcFN5MvuYz6es9aYgMvfgbyOTmSuB1MMuzak=

    EDIT: You may recall this exciting sub history, PabloPlato... http://www.discogs.com/history?release=3089445 wherein my daring to edit "his" sub apparently sent him off the rails for good...
  • transmutation over 7 years ago

    lol wow.. after hundreds of years of brutal worldwide race based genocide & oppression its good to know europe has got its priorities straight..
  • ChrisCrass over 7 years ago


    ChampionJames
    Ah, yes, that bit of cinematic treasure, with its disturbing juxtaposition of febrile racial rhetoric and scenes of beachcombing lovers at sunset


    Lmfao, didn't know that existed. It has a point though!
  • Jayfive over 7 years ago

    transmutation
    if DISCOGS "actively" making profit from racism and ripping off artists is genuinely a problem to you, then, my friend, may i suggest rethinking your relationship with the music industry period, not to mention the entirety of western civilization lol..


    Who were you addressing there when you say 'my friend'?

    transmutation
    unauthorized sampling, remixing and even bootlegging have always been a integral part of the development of dance & hiphop music culture..


    So what about those bootlegs of rare albums by 80s rock bands that Emerald_Blue is referring to?

    ChrisCrass
    It has a point though!


    Yes, a completely incorrect and slightly insane one.

    Hes not, BTW, just saying discogs allows the sale of music by artists with extreme-right-wing views, hes saying that discogs actively gives money to race-hate organisations through the proceeds of such sales.

    transmutation
    lol wow.. after hundreds of years of brutal worldwide race based genocide & oppression its good to know europe has got its priorities straight..


    The cerebrally unhinged are a worldwide phenomena. The briefest of searches on youtube will show you that.

    If you look at his other videos you will see that this person is prepared to spout ill-informed rants on a variety of subjects.
  • transmutation over 7 years ago

    if the point is that europe is one hit song away from genocidal mania and that discogs is complicit, no wait.. discogs is ACTIVELY promoting that through its hidden racist agenda then yes... it has a point..

    otherwise, its, imho, utter nonsense.

    for every one outright racist release in the database there must be at LEAST 10,000 you can point to and go look... isnt humanity amazing? despite our incredibly crappy track record we still, in the worst of circumstances, manage to come together and create and enjoy beautiful music together.

    discogs helps greatly in facilitating that, and deserves its 6%.. and its a shame to try and drag the site in the mud with nonsense accusation & implications of racism & thievery...

  • transmutation over 7 years ago

    @ jayfive.. my friend would i guess in that case be eviltoastman..

    i should start quoting.. been a minute since ive been on forums lol
  • transmutation over 7 years ago

    transmutation edited over 7 years ago


    Jayfive
    So what about those bootlegs of rare albums by 80s rock bands that Emerald_Blue is referring to?


    i think that if somebody is blatantly abusing the discogs system to sell bootlegs they should be stopped... but i honestly think the market will take care of that before discogs could..

    i dont think anyone should be representing a bootleg as a original, no matter what, and afaik, that would violate the rules for selling to begin with, so i dont see the problem there...

    and id say be careful spending alot of money on anything.. buyer beware.. discogs isnt your mother.. you gotta do some research & ask some questions before you drop mad $ on a CD of all things...

    and straight vinyl boots, that represent themselves as such, while im not really a fan of them, are what they are.. certainyl not that big a deal, id think they actually make the original MORE valuable.. i dunno.. i think the policy is fine.. they exist, so they are there.. should they exist?? lol.. should nicki minaj exist?? i dunno lol.. not my problem.. but if the copyright holders have a problem then i suppose its up to discogs to sort it out.. not really a big deal tho, and a very slippery slope imho if copyright laws gets enforced to the letter.. there would be hardly any sample based music allowed in the database at all!! lol
  • transmutation over 7 years ago

    it IS a tricky gray area tho in some respect, and really buyers need to be careful

    ive actually had to decide to not sell some cds i have on here, or anywhere, even tho they are pretty valuable and i dont listen to them.. like, certain underground hiphop stuff is REALLY a cdr & a computer print out cover and going for like $60... now i know i bought it from aesop rock, but the last thing in the world i want is somebody thinking im scamming them.. but then i think about how unimportant it is in the scheme of things, and just hold onto the cd and move onto some next...

    id be annoyed tho if it wasnt in the database because of the bootlegging potential.. or if people were known to be bootlegging it.. it still exists.. and the better & more accurate info users can provide to the database, including bootlegs, means the easier it will be for buyers to find the original they are looking for... if you didnt even know there was a bootleg, you might buy one OR might even sell one without knowing it...
  • Jayfive over 7 years ago

    Jayfive edited over 7 years ago
    transmutation
    but if the copyright holders have a problem then i suppose its up to discogs to sort it out..


    Indeed, and if someone sees something they feel strongly about, they should contact said copyright holders.

    transmutation
    lol.. should nicki minaj exist??


    Actually yes, while I have no time for most of her stuff due to this shes an honorary speedcore artist XD

    I would pay money to have The Destroyer or someone remix that.
  • transmutation over 7 years ago

    word, yeh im no fan but i aint mad.. i honestly wouldnt even know about the song with madonna if it wasnt for that MIA superbowl thing and this thread...

    which um, brings up a interesting angle, in todays dance music world of hype and marketing, do yall really think its THAT outside the realm of possibility that a madonna single, with MIA, that used controversy as its marketing angle.. would a "unofficial" "bootleg" remix on vinyl be actually, um, UNofficial...?

    picture disc & everything? smells suspiciously like marketing to me
  • Eviltoastman over 7 years ago

    I'm all for trying her to a chair and beating the truth out of here so it can only be read in the pattern of her spilt blood, a bit like teat-leaf reading.
  • Jayfive over 7 years ago

    transmutation
    would a "unofficial" "bootleg" remix on vinyl be actually, um, UNofficial...?


    Computer says no

    In UK hardcore/happy hardcore in recent years there is or was a fashion for 'bootleg' remixes which were just stuff with recognisable or uncleared samples to make the bedroom DJs feel like they were getting something special. See also - 'promo - for DJS only' when it wasnt a promo and in fact the full release version.
  • ChrisCrass over 7 years ago

    Jayfive
    Yes, a completely incorrect and slightly insane one.


    Really? And the promotion of fascist music doesn't disturb you? Interesting!

    Jayfive
    hes saying that discogs actively gives money to race-hate organisations through the proceeds of such sales.


    I don't believe Discogs does, but someones making money out of hatred and evil and in my eyes, and many others, that's very wrong!
    Clearly you don't share the same view!!!! Mmmmmmmm.
  • Jayfive over 7 years ago

    Jayfive edited over 7 years ago
    ChrisCrass
    Really? And the promotion of fascist music doesn't disturb you? Interesting!


    *sigh*

    Where did I say that it didnt disturb me? Where did I state an opinion on this music and its messages AT ALL?

    Im simply stating that hes saying that *discogs* is passing money directly to far-right groups. Is acting as a front for them. That is not the same as allowing sales to take place. And is simply not happening. That is what is insane about his video, not that he finds race-hate music repallant.

    Honestly, I shouldnt have to explain this to you. Do you honestly think I would stand up on discogs help forums and go 'that guy thinks being racist is a bad thing, lol hes mental'? Get a grip.

    ChrisCrass
    I don't believe Discogs does, but someones making money out of hatred and evil and in my eyes, and many others, that's very wrong!
    Clearly you don't share the same view!!!! Mmmmmmmm.


    Oh give it a rest. My personal views are not important and are not on show here.

    Nowhere do I say that I think i'm happy with discogs current policy regarding this things. Nowhere do I say anything for OR against. Im simply stating what their policy is and that the person who made that video is making baseless and demonstrably untrue allegations. If you had looked at this users other videos or attempted to converse with him you would realise how unhinged he was:

    I politely asked him to risk the errors on his subs - he moaned and complained and bitched and added fake submissions to the database.
    I changed themself - he moaned and complained and bitched and accused me of 'stealing' his submissions.
    Then he spotted a discussion about...well...this....and then went completely ballistic.

    So taking all that into account kindly take your attempt at a witchhunt and shove it.
  • transmutation over 7 years ago


    ChrisCrass
    Really? And the promotion of fascist music doesn't disturb you? Interesting!


    what disturbs me more than wannabe fascist music is outright fascism, which is what i consider the combination of nanny state lawmakers & multinational corporations curtailing speech & expression under the guise of protecting you from yourself and any bad or stupid decisions and ideas you may have.

    you dont eliminate darkness by putting it in a box made of laws, it only gets darker in there.. you eliminate darkness by shining light..

    i honestly feel as if anti-hate speech laws etc are tantamount to admission that white supremacy is SO ingrained in the national consciousness of certain countries that they are truly only a hit song away from genocide... thats way scarier to me than a angry idiot making a CD...

  • ChrisCrass over 7 years ago

    Jayfive
    Where did I say that it didnt disturb me?


    It disturbs me, and stupidly concluded it would anyone else that thinks this stuff is disgusting.

    Jayfive
    My personal views are not important and are not on show here.


    But you feel the need to ridicule mine?

    Jayfive
    So kindly take your attempt at a witchhunt and shove it.


    Nice. The Discogs forum bully once again throws his toys out of the pram. Not everyone MUST agree with you!
  • Jayfive over 7 years ago

    Jayfive edited over 7 years ago
    ChrisCrass
    It disturbs me, and stupidly concluded it would anyone else that thinks this stuff is disgusting.


    Maybe I do, but just becauseI didnt feel the need to say it doesnt mean you can make conclusion in the absences.

    It appears that because I didnt stand up and decry these releases to the high heavens youve assumed Im all for them. This is not the case.

    ChrisCrass
    But you feel the need to ridicule mine?


    ????

    I didnt ridicule yours. I didnt mention yours. I didnt mention MINE. I simply stated that what IS IN THAT VIDEO are baseless and untrue allegations - that discogs IS A FRONT for race-hate groups.

    ChrisCrass
    Nice. The Discogs forum bully once again throws his toys out of the pram. Not everyone MUST agree with you!


    Who am I bullying? Agree with me about what? What are you TALKING about? Surely if I wanted everyone to agree with me I would have to be adopting a position contrary to what is being said. This is not the case.

    Youre having a discussion about whether these right-wing releases should be in discogs. BUT I HAVENT BEEN HAVING THIS DISCUSSION. Im talking about something vaguely related but different at which point you pounced on my indirectly declaring me a racist for saying the bloke who made that video is making completely untrue allegations against this site. Discogs taking the commission for the sale of these things is one thing, but its not actively operating in cahoots with them or sharing the profits. Thats just ludicrous.

    If you dont think these releases shouldnt be in discogs. THAT IS FINE.
    If you think these releases shouldnt exist. AGAIN, FINE.
    But thats just not the issue at hand. Never was. So im stumped as why you think we're arguing about it. Im also stumped as why you have turned on me in this manner.
  • Jayfive over 7 years ago

    Jayfive edited over 7 years ago
    For the avoidance of doubt, when you said:
    ChrisCrass
    It has a point though!

    and then I said:

    Jayfive
    Yes, a completely incorrect and slightly insane one.


    I meant that his allegation of this place being a 'front for race-hate groups' was incorrect and insane. Not that he generally things racism and discrimination is a extremely bad thing.

    Which is why I followed this up with:
    Jayfive
    Hes not, BTW, just saying discogs allows the sale of music by artists with extreme-right-wing views, hes saying that discogs actively gives money to race-hate organisations through the proceeds of such sales.


    I tried to draw you a picture, and it appears that I have been forced to colour it in.

    Hes right and has every right to state that he doesnt like thes things being discogs and right to use his right to free-speech to bring it to people's attention so they can see and judge for themselves. But his claims of the proceeds of sale are passed from discogs directly into the pockets of race-hate groups are simply untrue. Moreover theres any number of anti-racism/fascist and generally left-wing music in this daabase. Not to mention any amount of music by peoples of all creeds, colours, nationalities and religions.
  • transmutation over 7 years ago


    Jayfive
    Not to mention any amount of music by peoples of all creeds, colours, nationalities and religions.


    and OVERWHELMING amount even...

    like... 99.9999999999% lol

    also, when it comes to bootlegging, id say discogs does the industry a FAVOR even... sales on vinyl are UP.. discogs creates collectors, who dont just buy used vinyl, they buy new vinyl.. and Discogs generates plenty of money im sure thru LEGIT mp3 sales... if anything, discogs is like, a shining example of positivity on the internets when it comes to buying & selling music legit... totally unfair imho to make this place out as a supporter of bootlegging...
  • Jayfive over 7 years ago

    Jayfive edited over 7 years ago
    transmutation
    and OVERWHELMING amount even...

    like... 99.9999999999% lol


    Thats not to say that people get be of the opinion that one things being sold on discogs be a band promoting race-hate is one too many.

    What isnt great is the attitude of the guy who made that video which was essentially 'I demand the immediate removal of anything that promotes hate of any sort and if you dont agree with me 100% that you are a hatemonger too'. Reasoned detatched discussion was rendered impossible. He even shouted down people who agreed with him.

    Youre just not going to initiate change on discogs by sheer force of will. If that were the case we wouldve have had a blocked seller list for years now XD

    transmutation
    totally unfair imho to make this place out as a supporter of bootlegging...


    Unfair to make it out as a supporter of anything. It is entirely neutral on such things.

    Also of note is that the site founder's name is of polish extraction - "habitational name for someone from a place called Lewandów in Warszawa". Therefore his ancestors will have made the trip from Poland to the US. And theres only a few reasons why they would have done that....
  • ChrisCrass over 7 years ago

    Jayfive
    For the avoidance of doubt,


    Then i apologise for misreading it but when you start off the thread with such comments as:

    Jayfive
    This is a non-issue frankly


    It get's my back up immediatley, it's clearly not a non issue for glue79 or the user wouldn't of felt the need to post.

    If you felt it a "Non-Issue" then don't respond but don't belittle someones opinion or post. This happens far too much on these forums, by the same users everytime, and needs to stop, they are supposed to be helpful, not a playground battle for bullies to pick off the weak.
  • dj_julie over 7 years ago

    I'm certain that some artists bootleg themselves (so they don't have to declare the tax).

  • transmutation over 7 years ago



    Jayfive
    Unfair to make it out as a supporter of anything. It is entirely neutral on such things.


    word, neutral is a good place to be...

    altho i WOULD like to see more enforcement of the selling policies.. i know promos & white labels in full releases get you going lol, but i also find ALOT of represses, official or not, listed in the originals.. i think THATS the biggest problem on here when it comes to this issue, it undermines the marketplace statistics and shows lack of respect for the concept of a comprehensive database...
  • Jayfive over 7 years ago

    Jayfive edited over 7 years ago
    ChrisCrass
    It get's my back up immediatley, it's clearly not a non issue for glue79 or the user wouldn't of felt the need to post.


    Again: ???

    That was about bootlegs, not rasicm.

    ChrisCrass
    If you felt it a "Non-Issue" then don't respond but don't belittle someones opinion or post


    I didnt. I stated that it was a non-issue FOR DISCOGS. You confuse stating the site's position are previously stated many times on the site with my own personal opinions. Nor did I say or imply to the OP that it shouldnt be an issue for him or tht he shouldnt have posted.

    I wouldve thought the rest of my post made that clear. I even, if you care to look, give advice about in what circumstances he can revert to discogs to get items remove. It suits you to take that one phrase out of context. But why my first post motivated you to start an argument a day later on an entirely different subject is beyond me.

    ChrisCrass
    This happens far too much on these forums, by the same users everytime, and needs to stop,


    You want people to stop telling others they are wrong and why they are wrong - something, give the nature of this site, which is neccessary?

    ChrisCrass
    they are supposed to be helpful, not a playground battle for bullies to pick off the weak.


    None of my posts in this thread were remotely of this nature. It suits you not to notice that the VAST majority of my posts are helpling new users and stuck users. Yes, sometimes that telling them to post in the right place but the alternative is their thread is removed without warning or explanation.

    I do not seek to bully other users. If that were the case I would have been long since banned. Believe me users behaviour in the forums and database has to be a lot more controlled and is a lot more closely monitored than a couple of years. You cant even swear anymore :P

    I could, if you would permit me to PM you, show you EXACTLY what bullying on this site looks like. Though you might need to have google translate ready.
  • transmutation over 7 years ago


    dj_julie
    I'm certain that some artists bootleg themselves (so they don't have to declare the tax).


    you know, if i was a obscure disco artist who released a random song on a long-defunct label and found it going for $100+ 30 years later, i might consider making a few phone calls and dropping a "unofficial" bootleg myself..
  • ChrisCrass over 7 years ago


    Jayfive
    That was about bootlegs, not rasicm.


    Yes I know!

    Jayfive
    I could, if you would permit me to PM you, show you EXACTLY what bullying on this site looks like.


    Be my guest!
  • psychonausea over 7 years ago

    Jayfive
    (Discogs) is entirely neutral on such things

    One can't be neutral when it comes to moral questions.
    Discogs is not neutral on things such as sales of illegal releases or racist propaganda.
    They aren't even neutral in their decision to catalogue such releases.

    As long as they are willing to take responsibility for the moral decisions they've made, than there's no problem.
  • transmutation over 7 years ago

    transmutation edited over 7 years ago

    psychonausea
    One can't be neutral when it comes to moral questions.


    interesting... but isnt it being a "moral question" a reflection of YOUR morals rather than discogs?

    discogs is a database.. some decisions get made yeh.. but where does the line get drawn when it comes to the content of the music??

    and who exactly is all of a sudden deciding race morality? white europe? let the nazis yell all the stupid crap they want, expose their stupidity for what it is... i dont understand the idea of "lets stop people from talking about it and it will go away" yet what is done to change global socioeconomic structure? and the MACHINE that is white supremacy lives on, strong as ever, on the hush with a wink and a nod...

    looking for a perpetuation of racism? discogs is the wrong tree to bark up..

    the GLOBAL community of people on here, trading in wonderful cross cultural music is actually the CURE to what seems to worry some... im amazed that somehow people would find discogs culpable, and somehow needing to take "responsibility" for "moral questions" in regards to race...
  • transmutation over 7 years ago

    geez if anything i would HOPE a racist youth would come on here to buy their music, and have the chance to be exposed to the overwhelming AMAZING amount of beautiful positive sounds available in every style possible with every link you click... shut up and go away isnt gonna make things better.. it creates martyrs who are magnets for suffering people.. compassion is the ticket..
  • psychonausea over 7 years ago

    transmutation
    isnt it being a "moral question" a reflection of YOUR morals

    No.
    Unless you really want to believe that stealing (c.q. bootlegging) and damaging other people (c.q. hate speech) are not moral issues which are of all times & of all places. No escaping from it.

    transmutation
    im amazed that somehow people would find discogs culpable, and somehow needing to take "responsibility" for "moral questions"

    Well, when the amazement fades, think about it for half an hour or so.
    Did you ever see the film Mephisto by István Szabó?
    "Aber, ich bin doch nur ein Schauspieler?

    Maybe one day Kevin will stand face to face with an artist & get asked the question: "What did you do to stop people from stealing from us?" And Kevin will answer: "I created a platform where people could advertise the sales of illegal copies of other people's work & took a percentage from it when it would sell, & I kept that percentage for my own profit."
    If Kevin can live with that, than that's fine with me.
    If he can't, than he should rethink Discogs' policy in regards to selling illegal releases.

    I am not going to dictate him what his answer should be, nor should you or anybody else.
    But whatever his answer is, he's responsible for it.
  • Jayfive over 7 years ago


    psychonausea
    But whatever his answer is, he's responsible for it.


    Indeed, this is what ebay did presumably. They got a load of flak for allowing sellers to sell stuff by Screwdriver and other right-wing bands, weighed up the bad publicity over the profits made by their sale and changed their rules to ban them.

    This was as much a PR strategy rather than a moral judgement. And when the times comes, I fully expect discogs to take the same sort of action.

    After all, is it fully worth discogs copping a load of grief from all over the internet for the commission on the sale on a tiny number of releases?

    psychonausea
    Maybe one day Kevin will stand face to face with an artist & get asked the question: "What did you do to stop people from stealing from us?" And Kevin will answer: "I created a platform where people could advertise the sales of illegal copies of other people's work & took a percentage from it when it would sell, & I kept that percentage for my own profit."


    This has happened. Kind of:
    http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/139107
    then:
    http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/165485
    then:
    http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/189910
  • transmutation over 7 years ago

    i mean, it will be tough to look a innocent child in the eye, when WW3 starts in iran, having facilitated the sale of vinyl, a petroleum based product, controlled by the oil cartels, who removed the rightfully elected leader or Iran and reinstalled the Shah, because he had nationalized the countries oil, thus creating massive public discontent culminating in the islamic revolution.. i mean, its gonna be hard to look that child in the eye and say, "i did this, i took 6%"...

    or perhaps one day when the REAL thieves and racists get their due, people will look back and say, that discogs really was awesome, providing people with a chance to create a global yet personal community of people trading in the music that fixed the world...

    i dunno.
  • ChampionJames over 7 years ago

    ChampionJames edited over 7 years ago
    Erm, not really. Whatever percentage you take on the sale of used or NOS records is not a percentage of the materials profit. That transaction has been completed between the petrochemical firm and the record manufacturer long before you've entered the picture. And even if you were taking part in that exchange, the production cost of the physical record is so paltry in comparision to the final price of the record that your actual windfall from the oil content would be an almost negligibly minuscule percentage, certainly nowhere within even telescopic sight of 6%. In fact, the sale of used records greatly retards the production of new records, and so you are likely thwarting the petroleum industry to a far greater degree than you could possibly be benefiting them.

    If you want to feel needless guilt about it, however, you can feel bad that the sale of second-hand records trades on the intellectual property of the artists without increasing their royalties a single bit. So it's really the artists you're ripping off, not subjugated Iranians. Except of course those subjugated Iranians who are artists, I suppose.

    But what any of that has to do with bootlegs is beyond me.
  • transmutation over 7 years ago

    i wasnt being serious...

    and i feel great :) just copped a huge thrift shop score lol

    i think these are serious accusations, and i think they are a stretch.. that was the point.. i think the positives are overwhelming, and these negatives are absurd. go onto craigslist and flag the terrabyte hard drives full of mp3s people are selling... or fix the judicial system if you wanna do something about racism..

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