• elfland over 5 years ago

    How important is having the original inner sleeves for LPs and how do missing sleeves affect condition/value? I am very new here (haven't posted anything for sale yet) and want to learn as much as possible - it's all a bit overwhelming to me. I have been finding/buying classical records, show music and other genres with covers in good to very good condition and records VG and some VG+ but without inner sleeves. I've found some with clear plastic replacements for the sleeves and some without any sleeves. How can I tell if the original sleeve had something desirable on it or if it just had blank sleeves? Will adding new inner sleeves make up for missing ones if they were just blank? Sorry if I'm asking too much at once.

  • StayPositive- over 5 years ago

    It is hard to find out this information. I for one obsess over it. I NEED that original sleeves. I message sellers and ask and I google as much as I possibly can to find out. When I used to buy records that were "Near Mint" and they were missing the original inner sleeve I would become quite upset...

    IMO it is not in good condition if it is missing that sleeve. But most people don't seem to care so it often gets ignored. And on a lot of discogs submissions a lyrics sheet or detailed inner sleeve are not in the description even if they are present.
  • disneyfacts over 5 years ago

    Unless it has a specific inner sleeve, they shouldn't matter too much. Many were release with no inner sleeve, a generic white one or just a generic company one (this is the generic one that matters, if at all). Just be sure to note that it's not the original inner sleeve if it was released with a specific one.
  • ProfKolbi over 5 years ago

    A lot of it depends on how old the record. Some early and pre-LP sleeves were better than the premium after-market stuff today. They're a nice extra touch to see. Later they became billboards for the record-of-the-month club. Worthless but I found some clues about stuff there.

    Whatever, don't store anything in old ones and definitely replace any missing ones (after a good cleaning.)
  • JeffSKennedy over 5 years ago

    If you are buying records for your own collection, it's up to you to determine how important it is. I'm one, like many here, that will try my best to document what came with the original release. Submitting images for every printed sleeve and insert. Some people are funny about the addition of a custom printed inner sleeve on a submission, as if someone is selling a copy that is missing the original inner sleeve, they do not want the value to be downgraded over the issue. Fact is, "it is what it is." If several people report a specific sleeve as being with a particular pressing, chances are, they are collectively correct.

    With that said, I've noticed that some reissues are produced with generic white sleeves, and I may not have hard facts to back this up, but I am also convinced that if a record was pressed at multiple pressing plats at one time, sometimes a generic white sleeve is used when the custom printed sleeves run out. So, it is possible that a record was shipped with a white sleeve, when the intent was for a custom sleeve to be included.

    Of course, some of the replacement sleeves are of a higher quality with plastic linings. In an ideal world (mine, at least), the custom inner sleeve would be stored empty in the jacket, along side the vinyl being stored in one of those high-end replacement sleeves. That would not only protect the vinyl better, but would also server to protect the inner sleeve from seam splits. Are ANY of my records stored like that? No. They aren't. lol

    Classical records graded at VG and VG+? From what I have read, most classical titles are hard to sell in VG+, much less in VG. Some rock records can sound good at a G+ grade, but I think I'd recommend going for NM or M graded records for classical... VG+ only if it is a rare item. In any event, I'd expect you can get some bargains on classical titles in VG grade.
  • Ksos63 over 5 years ago

    StayPositive-
    It is hard to find out this information. I for one obsess over it. I NEED that original sleeves. I message sellers and ask and I google as much as I possibly can to find out. When I used to buy records that were "Near Mint" and they were missing the original inner sleeve I would become quite upset...

    IMO it is not in good condition if it is missing that sleeve. But most people don't seem to care so it often gets ignored. And on a lot of discogs submissions a lyrics sheet or detailed inner sleeve are not in the description even if they are present.


    ^^^^^^
    +1
    Prior to purchasing any vintage vinyl, I always mail the seller to see if the album has all of the original components e.g. original inner, inserts, etc.

    It's just part of the addiction of being an obsessive compulsive collector!
  • elfland over 5 years ago

    Thanks for all of your input - I found it very helpful. ProfKolbi - do you or does anyone else have suggestions for the best way to clean records? I have some very nice rarer classic ones but with surface dust on them. What about deeper cleaning as well? I don't expect anyone to write essays about cleaning methods in response to this :) - but if anyone could provide a link to info on this, I would greatly appreciate it. I will probably post this question separately too.
  • DeltaSouth over 5 years ago

    DeltaSouth edited over 5 years ago
    i like original sleeves, but i don't obsess over them.

    i'm a guitarist. as long as the vinyl is in nice condition, i'm all good.

    i've never seen a jacket or sleeve that sounds good with a needle applied to it.

    i'm not a collector. i would never spend a lot of money on a record.
    i'm a music lover. it pretty much ends there.

    records used to be in dollar bins, when i was a kid. i don't value them, the way most folks do.
    i've never spent a large amount on a single record. that'll never occur, sleeve or not.

    i'm not a collector.

    they don't have the same value to me, as most folks.

    i love vinyl.... the sound of it, not the minutia of it. just my take. to each their own.
  • Kein.Mensch over 5 years ago

    StayPositive-
    It is hard to find out this information. I for one obsess over it. I NEED that original sleeves. I message sellers and ask and I google as much as I possibly can to find out. When I used to buy records that were "Near Mint" and they were missing the original inner sleeve I would become quite upset...

    Ksos63
    It's just part of the addiction of being an obsessive compulsive collector!

    +1
  • peterbourbon over 5 years ago

    JeffSKennedy
    Of course, some of the replacement sleeves are of a higher quality with plastic linings. In an ideal world (mine, at least), the custom inner sleeve would be stored empty in the jacket, along side the vinyl being stored in one of those high-end replacement sleeves.


    Exactly like I do. If there is an inner sleeve I take the record out and put it separately in an additional antistatic sleeve (I bought a bulk of those sleeves for shipping and private usage). The record is taken out of the cover in this bonus sleeve. The inner stays inside the cover. Plus stiffeners, plus bubblewrap, of course. I store my records out of the printed inners in those antistatic generic inners, so that neither record nor printed inner sleeve is affected by taking out the record. But to me missing a custom printed inner sleeve is an absolute no-go. Even if the price is 80% reduced. Had a small discussion with a superfriendly and great seller from the netherlands a few weeks ago. I bought the record, but cancelled the order - but he accepted as he did not mention the record is missing the printed inner sleeve (but probably he did not knew this came with a printed inner).

    In my opinion sellers should really check if parts are missing and being honest with missing parts.
    This is so important!
    A record missing an inner sleeve - well - I would only sell it cheaper than the cheapest listing - no matter if the rest looks like new. I do grading separate from missing parts, but mention missing parts in the notes. Hopefully that's transparent enough.
  • Sergiotti over 5 years ago

    I also think that the seller must inform the absence of components (inner sleeve) or it is replaced by anti-static sleeves, any new owner pays attention to it!
  • StampedWhiteLabel over 5 years ago

    If the item is listed on the database with an inner sleeve clearly mentioned and or shown in photos or other sellers mention it then you should mention the lack of inner and reduce the price accordingly. If there is no mention then you can presume it is as you have it. Like said a lot of releases came in a plain paper sleeve anyway.
    Price affect depends on rarity and collectibility. If its ultra rare and there are no copies then the chances are people will pay well regardless but it if there is no shortage of the lp they will likely skip it unless its cheap enough to make it worth while.
  • 3y3_HERt_Wax over 5 years ago

    If known to have a particular inner or extra's, more thats missing, the price should go down. An analogy would be to buy an incomplete jigsaw thats stated as 'all there' but considering we're talking records etc. I'd consider it extremly important to have the item how it was intended and a bloody good discount if otherwise.
  • ryebass over 4 years ago

    Ksos63
    StayPositive-It is hard to find out this information. I for one obsess over it. I NEED that original sleeves. I message sellers and ask and I google as much as I possibly can to find out. When I used to buy records that were "Near Mint" and they were missing the original inner sleeve I would become quite upset...

    IMO it is not in good condition if it is missing that sleeve. But most people don't seem to care so it often gets ignored. And on a lot of discogs submissions a lyrics sheet or detailed inner sleeve are not in the description even if they are present.

    ^^^^^^
    +1
    Prior to purchasing any vintage vinyl, I always mail the seller to see if the album has all of the original components e.g. original inner, inserts, etc.

    It's just part of the addiction of being an obsessive compulsive collector!


    I'm looking for some clarity on this issue, and fully expect that I won't get any (lol). I just last week made my first purchase of two albums, one of which I'm happy with, the other missing the inner picture sleeve with lyrics (old generic sleeve in it's place). The grading on the item in question is VG+ on both media and sleeve, and, though it was reasonably priced for what it is and that condition, I would have shelled out as much as another 3 or 4 dollars certainly for the same item with everything intact.

    Before someone asks, yes indeed the item as described in the database indicates said inner sleeve along with pictures of both sides etc. and no, the seller makes no mention in his/her notes of any item being missing. I'm disappointed but I don't know whether I should make a fuss with the seller...I've read repeatedly that folks here will SPECIFICALLY ask prior to an order regarding the inclusion of...the stuff that should be there? This is my issue: I feel like I should be able to assume safely that a seller has done due diligence when posting an item for sale...period. Am I nuts?
  • flipster over 4 years ago

    ryebass
    This is my issue: I feel like I should be able to assume safely that a seller has done due diligence when posting an item for sale...period. Am I nuts?


    If it's a legit shop they should do the home work first.

    If it's a hobby seller always ask questions first, most hobby sellers are actually very diligent in helping a buyer although buyer may have to help the seller with any information they believe to be true : IE: does it have an inner sleeve with so & so on it, is it the gatefold edition, is the label red or blue, that sort of thing.

    A Hobby seller probably won't jip you intentionally so ask before hand, get to know the sellers who look likely to be cool...
  • westpier over 4 years ago

    I didn't realise people were so obsessed about the inner sleeves! Most of the records I sell I bought brand new so assume its the correct inner sleeve but the only time I've mentioned it when selling an item was a £60+ LP.

    Off the top of my head the only inner sleeves I can think as highly desirable with the release are the Vertigo swirl ones. Though I expect there's lots more examples out there.

  • ryebass over 4 years ago

    So this is the communication with the seller in question who will remain anonymous (to respond to the post two back, it doesn't seem to be a 'hobby' seller based on the size of inventory (over 5k LP's for sale) and the username). I gave the guy/gal positive feedback and was positive overall in my comments/note, making only a brief reference to the missing inner sleeve and his apologetic response.

    ryebass:

    First let me say the shipping was remarkably fast and the packing fantastic; I have one issue and that is that the self-titled Daryl Hall and John Oates 'silver album' copy that I received is missing the original inner sleeve (photos and lyric sheet replaced with generic white paper).

    I'm happy with the purchase and the grading overall, but giving you a heads-up regarding this point as it is indeed a significant issue for some collectors like myself.

    Thanks,

    Ryan

    anonymous seller:

    Thank you for the heads up. I will certainly take this into consideration with future listings. Hope you enjoy the records. Happy holidays!


    PS In response to the last post regarding obsession with sleeves: personally I'm drawn to the tactile 'holding this bit of history in my hands' element to the vinyl 'thing'. I have most of this music in digital format as well, but feel like the tangible nature of a physical record just brings another element to the table...this topic has been expounded upon much more fluently by my betters around the net, but suffice it to say, for me, a missing inner sleeve (assuming it isn't a generic piece of paper of course) is tantamount to (ok not quite but almost) destroyed outer sleeve etc...I have no idea about 'desirability' though I suppose I'm admitting that it is indeed desirable to me at the very least.

    A seller could easily say 'so what if the vinyl is scratched, collecting old fart records is silly' etc...our presence here indicates that we all 'get' this intangible tangible thing, and that it isn't necessarily answerable to logic.

    Sorry about what probably sounds like a rant. The moral of this story seems to be: don't assume even experienced sellers have any clue what is important to you, ask about those details etc, though I still feel like the onus should be on the seller to be thorough.

    Happy Holidays!


  • Elukkae over 4 years ago

    Just a comment on this; it's not always clear in the DB if the release has a pic inner or not. There are releases with both versions under one entry, if the outer sleeve and record itself are identical. Quite often record companies shipped the later patches of the print run without special inners. IMO they should be separate submissions.
  • ThomasP64 over 4 years ago

    Elukkae
    IMO they should be separate submissions.


    I assume you mean release-specific inner sleeves. If an inner sleeve has only advertising matter, I expect the same record might be shipped with multiple advertising sleeves, depending on what was available. Is it necessary to treat these as separate items?
  • jvaahtera over 4 years ago

    If differences are in release specific inner sleeves -> different sub
    If generic company inner, even different -> forget it.
  • aasaxell over 4 years ago

    jvaahtera
    If differences are in release specific inner sleeves -> different sub
    If generic company inner, even different -> forget it.


    agreed
  • Elukkae over 4 years ago

    ThomasP64

    I assume you mean release-specific inner sleeves. If an inner sleeve has only advertising matter, I expect the same record might be shipped with multiple advertising sleeves, depending on what was available. Is it necessary to treat these as separate items?


    Yes, that's what I mean - pics, lyrics etc. Generic record company ad inners don't qualify, but I think they can be mentioned in the release notes.

    By the way, I am trying to get an opinion from the forum in a case like this - Quark, Strangeness And Charm was available first with an inner, then without, and they are both in the same sub. IMO they should be separate subs.
  • BennyILL over 4 years ago

    I had a buyer ask for a partial refund because the original plain white generic sleeve had a fold and i didn't mention it in the comments. ...i asked if he was joking
  • Elukkae over 4 years ago

    Regarding the question about presence or lack of release-specific inner sleeves as the basis for different submissions, we have now three users in this thread saying they should be separate; aasaxell, jvaahtera and myself.

    The thread about the Hawkwind release has four votes yes for making separate subs, zero against, two ambivalent.

    But in the previous discussion regarding the same release, two users ( DIFFO and reallygood) were against splitting the with / without an inner versions into two subs because they can't be told apart if the inner is lost.

    So there's some support for making separate submissions for clear cases whether the release has been available both with and without inners, but it's not very strong really. Don't know if we could have that as a policy yet.
  • LPJones over 4 years ago

    elfland
    do you or does anyone else have suggestions for the best way to clean records? I have some very nice rarer classic ones but with surface dust on them. What about deeper cleaning as well?


    I just looked for one of the many threads on cleaning but couldn't find...maybe someone else can.
    there are many ways and my way is not the best...but I do believe it is harmless and effective. I cut one part isopropyl alcohol with 4 parts distilled water into a spray gun (plant spraying type). Sray the disc and wipe with a lint free cloth. for serious grime I use isopropyl alcohol neat. I have read of many other ways of cleaning here at discogs but this is still the method I use. I have read of folk saying that the water will damage the vinyl but I am not sure if that is true of distilled water...over to the experts - I think that the method I use is safe to go with - its a method that I read of in Record Collector over 15 years ago - we've evolved since then and people now have better suggestions but as none of them were raised here I thought I'd give you this for now.
    As fot the inners - I think that the original inner is important- if it is missing or has been replaced the customer should know of this before purchase and especially:

    ryebass
    the other missing the inner picture sleeve with lyrics


    A missing inner sleeve that has been mentioned in Discogs listing should be compensated for - if the dealer did not check the listing before adding his item to the market lets take a guess that he has done this with most of his listings, and when it fails him he ought to compensate. I buy very few records thes days - I bought one here at Discogs once and it arrived with no lyric inner (it wasn't listed at discogs as having an inner - I just thought it would have having the cassette and CD of this record with lyrics inside) - I contacted the seller - he said it came this way to him - he got in touch with the guy who sold it to him and that guy had bought it new - turned out that the record was never released with a lyric inner (Shane MacGowan and the Popes The Snake) I know I'm hijacking this thread now but it's sellers like this guy (dimension7records) that we want Discogs to be. Folk that we can talk with of our complaints and have them eased out.

    Ok just wanted to say here's a cleaning tip and yes inners are important.

  • ziggymarco over 4 years ago

    Hi everybody. My opinion is to preserve the original issue. Further to this I have a question. If I buy, for example, an lp released in the 60s that came out with a generic white inner sleeve (with or withouth factory numbers etc...), in what way can I understand that it is the original one? Do you know if there's a database with images or something? The same is for original jewel cd cases... What do you think? I'm waiting your replies. Thanks a lot.
  • ThomasP64 over 4 years ago

    ziggymarco
    If I buy, for example, an lp released in the 60s that came out with a generic white inner sleeve


    If it came out with a generic white inner sleeve, why do you care if it's the original? Paper in the 60's was acidic. A generic white acid-free inner sleeve would seem to be an upgrade.
  • djcarbines over 4 years ago

    Very much depends on both the collector and the specific record. I have some NM records with original inners that are so relatively low value with or without the original inner makes near to no difference. It is a nice addition with lyrics, production / performance credits etc. More of an interest value than financial to me.

    Some records, it would make as much difference to financial value as the condition of the record or outer sleeve.
    Some examples, as mentioned above would include Vertigo Swirl releases, George Harrison - All Things Must Pass, Beatles White Album ("The Beatles"), Joni Mitchell - Blue, all with well documented original custom inners. There are many others, mostly 60's-70's that makes the biggest difference

    As an originals "wherever possible" collector into 50's rock n roll and chart music of my lifetime (1980's-on), this has had little impact on the financial collecting as these two eras aren't really affected by original 'custom' inners. 50's rarely had any (before the 'marketing' concept), 1980s, so mass produced original inners are easy to find with the records. The bit inbetween, if a record is in good condition and cheap because the original inner is missing, I will buy it for the collection, even if only to digitise from an original pressing for someone else to enjoy later. Good for me if I do not intend to keep long term but have enjoyed being in the prescence of my own original copy.
  • ThomasP64 over 4 years ago

    djcarbines
    Some records, it would make as much difference to financial value as the condition of the record or outer sleeve. ...There are many others, mostly 60's-70's that makes the biggest difference


    Yeah, I agree about custom inners. I was addressing a question about original vs. substitute generic white inners (no lyrics, no liner notes, no ads). In a case like that, who cares if the inner sleeve is original?
  • elfland over 4 years ago

    I guess you could call collectors like that purists. They want to know that everything is original. Of course, you could easily find another word to describe them. :)
  • ThomasP64 over 4 years ago

    Yeah, well, if they want authentic original generic white paper inner sleeves, they should let me know. I can give them all the authentic original generic white paper inner sleeves I've been throwing out and replacing with rice paper sleeves.
  • MJG196 over 4 years ago

    There is no question that not having the original inner sleeves, whether printed or not, affects the value of the LP. Just like anything in a "collectors' market," the more original pieces the better.

    Even if the original inner is torn to hell, I keep it tucked neatly inside the jacket alongside the anti-static protective sleeve it was replaced with.
  • ThomasP64 over 4 years ago

    MJG196
    There is no question that not having the original inner sleeves, whether printed or not, affects the value of the LP. Just like anything in a "collectors' market," the more original pieces the better.

    If you can't tell the difference between the original sleeve and these sleeves:
    http://www.sleevecityusa.com/Polylined-Paper-Record-Sleeves-50-Pack-p/12inpolylined.htm
    or these sleeves:
    http://www.sleevecityusa.com/Diskeeper-Simple-Paper-Record-Sleeves-50-Pack-p/12inround.htm
    then I respectfully submit that it makes no difference.
    Except that vintage white paper sleeves probably have sufficient acid to degrade your LPs over time.
  • djprojexion over 4 years ago

    Interesting topic, glad I took the time to read through it.

    Here's what we know:
    a) inner sleeves are currently not part of the condition grading on discogs (maybe someday it will be added?)
    b) a great deal of submissions to the database don't mention the inner sleeves
    c) a great deal of sellers are oblivious or unaware of the inner sleeves

    Given these facts, seems the only thing that makes sense would be for those who want or covet the inner sleeve to be sure and check with the seller before committing to a purchase. Why risk the disappointment?
  • Steijnsson over 3 years ago

    I wanted information on this sleeve issue and ended up here.

    If you wash your records it feels good to put them in a brand new clean inner sleeve.
    Very often the original inner sleeve is torn or it smells bad, especially when you buy your records second hand.

    However, I'm now reading that most people prefer to have the original sleeve even when it doesn't have any print on it, which is new for me. So I decided to keep the old ones from now on to keep everything original in case I ever want to sell something.

    However, putting the original sleeve next to the new one is probably going to cause a lot of frustration when you want to put your record back into the sleeve. Sometimes it can already be hard enough with narrow ones! I think I will keep them in a drawer with a reference so I can always search for it when I need it.

    If a record comes with a printed innersleave (lyrics, pictures, etc) you should always keep it of course, but I think we can all agree on that.
    As for the blank inner sleeves: opinions differ.

    Maybe it will be part of the grading on Discogs one day.
  • blumley over 3 years ago

    Steijnsson
    As for the blank inner sleeves: opinions differ.


    When, as a seller, I sell a record and put in in a new generic white inner, I always provide the original inner too - even if completely generic - in case the collector deems that important (and I certainly sometimes do).

    Certainly generic 'company' inners or generic inners that are clearly contemporary with the release are important, I think. I wish there would be more reference to this in submission notes too as that would assist buyers and sellers.

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