• jval over 4 years ago

    jval edited over 3 years ago
    Edit: If you want to skip the discussion and just read the outcome, skip to the conclusion.

    This has been discussed three years ago but the whole heading feature didn't even exist back then so I think it's a good idea to have a thread about this. Also, I think clarification is needed.

    When sides are named as "That Side" and "This Side", "Logo Side" and "This Side" or "Logo side" and "Thiz side" can/should you place those as headings in the tracklisting ("Logo side" and "Thiz side" would of course be entered as "Logo Side" and "Thiz Side" because RSG §1.2.1. includes headings)?

    When there weren't headings but only index tracks, it was ruled that such side names are not generic and can be used.

    RSG §12.13.2. doesn't say it so clearly because it states: "that is descriptive of the tracks below". And then there's RSG §12.13.4. which states: "should not be used for denoting generic side". Though, then it continues: "track numbering is used for this". That, and the old ruling, gives the impression that using the heading is only forbidden if the same thing would appear as positions (e.g. "Side A" and position "A" or "A1" etc. are the same thing).

    Judged from the old thread and the phrasing in the guidelines I take it that all side names (except "A", "Side A", "A Side" and "A-side") can be used as headings (not only those special names which describe the vibe of the tracks). That would be really helpful and describe how the sides and tracks appear on the release, especially when there are no positions beginning with "A" etc. but only side names and tracks. Usually the side named as "Logo Side" or "Other Side" is side A but is that so obvious that we shouldn't state the used side names and make it absolutely clear which side is which? The heading feature seems to fit for this nicely (it's the natural place for this information) so can/should it be used for this?

    If these can be used as headings, I have a follow-up question: What about side names like "Side 1" and "Side 2"? Then you use "A" and "B" as positions so is it allowed to put "Side 1" and "Side 2" as headings in that case? That would also help, but "A" meaning "1" is quite simple to understand so that's not so important. But, if being very precise, using headings in that case does improve the clarity (you don't have to wonder "this says 1 but the page says A"). :)

    Another follow-up question: What about a case where a side is named as "A-Side (Other Side)"? Can/should you place "A-Side (Other Side)" or "Other Side" as a heading? I guess not because the main side name is "A-Side" and "Other Side" is just a help text. :)

    Yet another follow-up question: I guess if this is allowed you can place side names as headings even when the tracklist has side designations in the positions, like e.g. in "A1". Then you naturally know which side is which but I guess entering the used side names documents the release even more than not entering them.

    Oh, and one more question which is off topic: If there are no positions with "A" and "AA" and the run-outs have side matrix numbers ending with "A" and "AA" can you use "A" and "AA" as positions or should you go by the guidelines and use the standard "A" and "B" then? Basically, if there are no side designations can you take them from the run-outs like cat#s are taken when the release doesn't have them printed anywhere on labels/cover? I'm just thinking using "A" and "AA" would be more like the release has them...

    Thanks in advance for your answers. Let's clarify this, please. :)
  • jval over 4 years ago

    jval edited over 4 years ago
    I think the headings are meant for those "special names which describe the vibe of the tracks" because I can imagine a case where the sides are named like: "This Side (Some Special Name)" and "That Side (Another Special Name)". There "This Side" and "That Side" are just to mark the sides and the actual headings of course are "Some Special Name" and "Another Special Name".

    The question is: How to solve the issue that when a release uses something else than A/B for side names it's not very clear which side is which? E.g. imagine a release which only has side names like "This Side" and "That Side", one track per side and no track names. In that kind of case it really helps if we document the side names... Or again, is it so obvious that the logo/other/that side is always side A?

    Of course the marking side names which aren't "special names which describe the vibe of the tracks" can be special like "Byte Side" (IIRC, that's used on releases from Byte Records and it's not a special vibe describing name – it's just another way of saying "Logo Side" – it's a name which describes the side instead of the tracks/songs). So this is not about if the side name is generic or not. This is about should headings be used only for those "special names which describe the vibe of the tracks"..? And if yes, are we ok with the fact that then there are cases where the sides are difficult to recognize? Basically, if it's a generic fact that the logo/other/that side is always side A, then I guess the side recognizing isn't such a big issue.

    Or should we actually use "This Side" and "That Side" as positions when the tracklist on the record doesn't have side designations? Is that actually the solution to this? So perhaps the headings are only for those "special names which describe the vibe of the tracks" and those This/That/Logo Side names can be used as positions, like: "This Side", "This Side 1", "This Side 2" etc. That kind of long positions look a bit bad though... :)
  • loukash over 4 years ago

    jval
    This has been discussed three years ago

    Here's a more recent one: http://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/52c7457e5e75a738dd0ae4cf

    jval
    What about side names like "Side 1" and "Side 2"?

    Generic. Ignore. Use "A" and "B" in tracklist positions as usual.

    However, it's well known that e.g. older US pressings may have differed in such details, among others. Each pressing plant had their own overprint layout on labels. So one plant may have used "SIDE 1", the other plant "SIDE ONE", yet another one perhaps "SIDE A", etc. But usually there were also other unique identifiers as well, like a factory code, or the layout would use a different font anyway. All of his stuff should be then documented in the release notes or with images if variants are known to exist.

    jval
    If there are no positions with "A" and "AA" and the run-outs have side matrix numbers ending with "A" and "AA" can you use "A" and "AA" as positions

    Sure. Why not?
    I'm always using A/AA on releases with no side designation whatsoever, usually making the lower matrix# "A" and the higher "AA". Because who am I to decide which side is less important than the other? ;) The point is simply that each position needs to be unique, and the side designation must be clearly visible in the tracklist.
    E.g. the vast majority of Supraphon 7" releases were conceptually considered "A/AA" (unless when explicitly noted). Quite often the "hit" was in fact on the "AA" side, particularly on split releases.
  • jval over 4 years ago

    jval edited over 4 years ago
    loukash
    Here's a more recent one: http://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/52c7457e5e75a738dd0ae4cf

    That didn't really clarify this for me. They mostly discussed there about which is the first side, logo or "this". :D

    loukash
    Sure. Why not?

    Because I can't really find where the guidelines allow it. :) Well I guess it must be ok when the side matrix number ends with "AA". It's more interesting when it ends with "B" though... ;)

    What I'm wondering about is whether it's a good idea to use side names as positions. It looks ugly. :) Also, the disc has side names in those cases instead of positions... Perhaps it would make more sense to use side names as headings in those cases.

    So it seems even though the heading feature was initially meant for the extra titles which describe the music, funky side names (well I don't mean just special ones but the "This" and "Logo" type of side names too) can be entered as headings? At least using them as headings makes the release page more clear I think.
  • loukash over 4 years ago

    jval
    I can't really find where the guidelines allow it.

    Here:
    RSG §0.0.0. What's not explicitly forbidden is allowed!

    ;)
  • jval over 4 years ago

    jval edited over 4 years ago
    What about the case where there are e.g. both "B" and "This Side"? Can you enter "This Side" as the heading for side B (and e.g. "Logo Side" as the heading for side A)? I'd assume yes. It's not necessary but it improves the clarity I think, so why not?

    Edit: Well perhaps not in a case like the "A-Side (Other Side)". But I think yes in a case where "This Side" and "Other Side" are separately presented instead of together with "B" and "A". E.g. I have a release where the cover uses "A" and "AA" but the labels use "LOGO SIDE" and "THIS SIDE". There I think I should enter "Logo Side" and "This Side" as headings because it improves the clarity of the release page.
  • Waldlicht over 4 years ago

    Waldlicht edited over 4 years ago
    "Other Side" isn't a side name, it's just a description where you find that side.
    You wouldn't hardly find a side who called itself "Other Side".
    Or find "This Side" as a side name on the sleeve.
  • Yukabacera over 4 years ago

    On a recent cassette that I submitted, the sides were oddly marked A1 and A2, and it's not even a single!? Should in this case, A1 and A2 be used as headings, with the standard A-B track listing? I did the A-side regularly and used AA1, AA2 etc. for the B side.
  • jval over 4 years ago

    Ok, I think I know now what is allowed. So I'm going to enter "This Side" type of side names as headings because I think that really improves the clarity. I think that's better than using them as positions (you could even question if it's allowed by the guidelines because the guidelines allow using positions from the release – they don't speak about using side names as positions ;)).

    Or should I do that? It's allowed but is it also a good idea? I think it is because it makes the release page more clear about the sides. In some cases it can even be impossible to know which side is which if the actual used side names aren't documented. I'm thinking it's better to put them as headings than explain them in the release notes like this: "Actual side names are That Side and This Side". It's more clear when they are as headings in the tracklisting because they are related to the tracklisting.

    I think adding those as headings is an improvement which should be done. Unless there's some reason why the headings should only contain those titles which describe the music... But I can't really think of such a reason. That data isn't used as a track title prefix – the index track feature is for that. So... There's no harm using the headings that way so when they improve the clarity they can and should be used I think.
  • Eviltoastman over 4 years ago

    Other side is no different to "that side".
  • jval over 4 years ago

    Waldlicht
    "Other Side" isn't a side name, it's just a description where you find that side.
    You wouldn't hardly find a side who called itself "Other Side".

    You were commenting that "A-Side (Other Side)" case? Yes, I think in that case it's just a help text and we ignore it. But, if a release only has sides named as "Other Side" and "This Side" I think we should enter those as headings then. I know these funky names are guiding names in reality but if we leave them out the release page isn't clear about the sides then. I don't see a reason why those funky names shouldn't be documented. And I think the heading feature suits for this the best.

    Yukabacera
    I did the A-side regularly and used AA1, AA2 etc. for the B side.

    I think that was a good solution. I hope the guidelines allow it. :)

    Yukabacera
    Should in this case, A1 and A2 be used as headings

    Those are basically generic side names but in this case such headings would clarify the situation. But perhaps in that case headings shouldn't be used because basically that's the same case as "Side 1" and "Side 2". It's just a double A-side release saying that. :)
  • Waldlicht over 4 years ago

    jval
    You were commenting that "A-Side (Other Side)" case?

    No, i mean "Other Side" only too.
    "OTHER SIDE: This Song (Extended Version)" didn't mean that side is called "Other Side". It just mean "This Song (Extended Version)" is on the other side of the record. That's why you wouldn't find a side name "Other Side" on the back cover. Or a Side which called itself "Other Side". Just because this desciption would be senseless on any other place.

    When you have LP and his back cover shows "Other releases of XYZ", it didn't mean the other releases are called "Other Releases" or they are part of a series called "Other Releases". It's just a description, not a name.
  • jval over 4 years ago

    jval edited over 4 years ago
    jval
    It's more interesting when it ends with "B" though... ;)

    I guess loukash is using A and AA when the side matrix numbers are purely numeric and that's a good/correct choice. I would use A and B if the matrix numbers end with A and B – even on double A-side releases because A and B are then what the release uses. The fact that the release is double A-side is reflected on the title and the images. The tracklist is just one detail and doesn't naturally define on its own if a release is A/B-side or double A-side.

    Yukabacera
    On a recent cassette that I submitted, the sides were oddly marked A1 and A2, and it's not even a single!? Should in this case, A1 and A2 be used as headings, with the standard A-B track listing? I did the A-side regularly and used AA1, AA2 etc. for the B side.

    I already told my opinion on this but this came to mind: If the track numbers don't start from 1 on the A2 side you can/should use the same numbers on the release page too. Repeating myself but I think A1 means "Side A" & "Side 1" and A2 means "Side A" & "Side 2" which basically means A and AA (first A and second A). In that case I think A and AA are the positions from the release even though you had/have to convert them. :) So the guidelines allow it and it should be done because it's more "as on release" than A and B. Also, because those are just A&1 and B&2 they are generic and shouldn't be used as headings (they are not side names, just side designations).

    Waldlicht
    No, i mean "Other Side" only too.

    Basically that argument fits perfectly for those "That Side"/"Logo Side" and "This Side" as well. "Other Side" is much less common though (and is perhaps used mostly as an extra "help text").

    The problem is: If a release only says "Other Side" and "This Side" and nothing else (e.g. cover doesn't have a tracklisting or the cover is generic) it then creates the exact same problem as "That Side"/"Logo Side" and "This Side". Leaving the funky side names out makes it harder (or sometimes even impossible) to recognize the sides. So I think we just need to allow using those as headings (it's the best place for them). Perhaps in practice "Other Side" doesn't appear so often. But theoretically, if it appears I don't see it as different than "That Side". They are all just guiding side descriptions but if we handle them as side names and allow them as headings we naturally allow them all.

    Also, when it's allowed to enter "That Side" as the heading when also "A" appears, "Other Side" is allowed as well. That's of course a good question: Should we document those "That Side" and "This Side" when also "A" and "B" appear..? The tracklisting doesn't really need them in that case but entering them naturally documents the release better... Sometimes the cover uses A and B/AA but the labels use "That Side" and "This Side". In those cases documenting the side names from the labels clearly improves clarity, I think. But I'm wondering should the side names / guiding texts be documented always when they appear... It's not necessarily logical to leave them out sometimes... :) At least it's done at least sometimes and it's allowed. Though, they should of course be left out when they appear clearly as secondary like in the "A-Side (Other Side)" case (there the side already has a name as "A-Side" and "Other Side" is just an additional and secondary help text). But when the label has both "B" and "This Side" and they aren't shown in a way the other one is secondary, perhaps "This Side" can be documented as the heading then. The logic behind that is "B" and "This Side" are then both the names of the side (even though those this/that/logo/other are all guiding "names" in reality). Of course it's perhaps not always clear when the guiding side name is secondary. Perhaps it should be left out always when there's also "A" or similar present and the guiding side name is written smaller (= secondary). But if the "A" or similar appears on the cover and the label only has the guiding version, then the guiding side name should be entered as the heading.
  • jval over 4 years ago

    jval edited over 4 years ago
    Edit: Simply put, side names are headings but only guiding texts aren't because they aren't then descriptive of the tracks or are generic. More detailed explanation is below.

    Actually people do enter the guiding side names as headings even when they appear as secondary. E.g. see Bobby Brown - Two Can Play That Game (The K Klass Mixes). Looking at that I think it improves the clarity because even though the "A" is bigger your eyes might see "THIS SIDE" first.

    (Edit: The following chapter is old and I changed my mind afterwards: When secondary side names are placed as headings I think then they should be headings in every case. It makes no sense to handle the "A-Side (Other Side)" case differently because it's exactly the same thing basically. If it said "A-Side (other side)" or "A-Side (Other side)" then it would be only a help text and would not be considered as heading material. But when it's presented as a subtitle it's conceptually the same thing as if it were written separately and smaller.)

    Edit: I changed my mind. It's not the same thing when the extra side name/description is in brackets: In that case "Other Side" points to "A-Side" instead of the tracks directly.

    Here's a good example why this logic holds, see Airscape - L'Esperanza. There the guiding texts don't really look like extra side names but they are side names because look at the runouts.

    Documenting the extra side names actually reveals extra information: You can see from the release page which side on the record is the first one without looking at the cover or labels.

    So what I'm going to do:

    – Add special vibe describing side names as headings always (even when they are secondary).

    – Add these guiding side names like "That Side"/"Logo Side"/"Other Side" and "This Side" as headings by default, even when they are secondary (written smaller than e.g. "A" and "B"/"AA"). There are two exceptions though:

    – Exception 1: When the guiding side describing texts are just additional help texts written together with the real side names as subtitles (e.g. in "A-Side (Other Side)") ignore them (not as headings) because they point to the real side names instead of the tracks then.

    – Exception 2: When the guiding side describing texts are on top of tracklisting (alone, so a case like "THIS SIDE – A" is still handled as "THIS SIDE" being a side name) and the release also has generic side names or designations, ignore them (not as headings) because they are then just pure guiding texts and not side names. Allowing side names as headings is already an exception to the original meaning of the heading feature so we should not go further (based on how it's worded/guided at the moment that generic side names aren't allowed etc.). It's a heading so it should be either a vibe describing title or a side name. Not a guiding text which just happens to be on top of the tracks. An exception is of course a case where the text is used also in runouts (like the Airscape case). Then it's a side name. But otherwise not. This rule applies only if the text is clearly part of the tracklisting (if it's used in tracklisting but presented very visible it's a side name). Basically usually "other side" is not a side name but "that side" and "logo side" are (though it's not really about the used words but how they appear).

    – When a side is named as "A", "Side A", "A-Side", "A Side", "Side 1", "1. Side" etc. ignore it (generic, positions reflect it).
  • loukash over 4 years ago

    jval, sorry to interrupt, but a well meant general advice:
    Your posts are usually very long and they look at first glimpse as if you would repeat the same thing over and over again. I, for one, don't have the patience to read them all through, sorry. And I can imagine many others don't either.

    In other words:
    Less (words) is often more. ;)
  • jval over 4 years ago

    I know; it's a bad habit of mine... :) I'm trying to improve...

    At the moment I'm wondering should I enter "Logo Side" or "Logo" as the heading when the side is described as "Logo side" on the label... I guess "Logo Side" because on the record it's more like a guiding text anyway but we still transfer it as the side name (because it improves the clarity about the sides on the release page).
  • jval over 4 years ago

    jval edited over 4 years ago
    I haven't yet added these to other than those releases which only have these side names. I'm not sure at the moment if it's a good idea or not to add "Other Side" as a heading when there's a tracklisting on the label like this:

    OTHER SIDE:
    A. Some Song (Club Mix)

    THIS SIDE:
    B1. Some Song (Original Mix)
    B2. Some Song (Instrumental)

    Basically it's allowed to add those as headings but should it be done or not? :) How have people usually handled these? (Well I can imagine people haven't really thought about the whole issue because it's a real problem only when there are only these names in use.)

    I'm not sure if this is the same situation as in the Bobby Brown case. (And that case can also be questioned: I mean it's allowed but does it make also sense? I'm not saying I'm questioning it. I really don't know. Perhaps there it's ok because it's presented as a side name clearly.) Here the descriptions are directly above the tracklisting. I'm not sure if that matters though. I'm sure the guidelines allow them as headings but for some reason I'm not at least currently comfortable with adding these... Basically in this case "OTHER SIDE" is exactly a description "that is descriptive of the tracks below" like the guidelines state. But still... :) Perhaps it's because this is a bit similar to that case (although in this case they do point to the tracks):

    At least I decided it's not correct to add "Other Side" as a heading when the label says "A-Side (Other Side)". There "Other Side" describes "A-Side" instead of the tracks so it doesn't feel right.

    Edit: I guess that's exactly why this doesn't feel good. "OTHER SIDE" on top of the tracklisting is basically the same thing as that "A-Side (Other Side)"... It might make more sense to add these only when they are presented clearly as side name type of texts. That would basically mean they are not heading material if they are on top of tracklisting and there are also generic side names or designations... So the Bobby Brown case would be ok but this kind of case not...

    –> So I guess "other side" isn't usually a side name because I think I've only seen it on top of tracklistings and in brackets... Updated the "So what I'm going to do" list above (older comment).
  • jval over 4 years ago

    jval edited over 4 years ago
    I'm tempted to just add these always. It would be so simple. :) Though, then I think even "Side 1" and similar should be added too...

    Some examples where people have added these even when they aren't really side names:

    Phrenetic System - Reality

    FBD* - Just Visiting Mars / Velvet

    The Chameleon Project - Feel

    Tom And Jerry - Maximum Style

    Duncan Gray - Lychee

    Various - The Three Laws (Part I)

    Release - Dance In Eden / Passion

    Rufige Cru* - Darkrider

    Cybex Factor - Die Schöpfung

    Nebula II - Flatliners

    DJ Poppy - House Is Mine / Yes

    React 2 Rhythm - Intoxication

    Happy Tunes - I Want You Baby / Intelligent Vibes

    Marc Hades - Maratone

    Edit: I didn't know the whole heading feature was that new. I commented in the announcement thread about this just now because someone else brought the same issue up earlier (as more generic though but it's the same thing anyway).
  • jval over 4 years ago

    Lately I've started to think perhaps the guidelines were deliberately changed to clear this up, and these side names like "That Side" etc. aren't allowed/recommended as headings anymore.

    I wrote in the other thread recently: Basically, aren't the guidelines more official than a three years old ruling which was given before this guidelines change? And if I read the current guidelines strictly, they say pretty clearly actually that the headings need to describe the music. So, headings like "This Side" and "Logo Side" etc. aren't recommended anymore? I should remove those I've added?

    The guidelines say:
    Use a "Heading" whenever there is a block of text on the release that is descriptive of the tracks below, but is not the title of a musical piece.

    Side names like "This Side" are not "descriptive of the tracks". They are side names which aren't directly related to the tracks at all. I guess unless the guidelines were mistakenly written that way, this issue is clear: The side names aren't heading material unless they describe the music.
  • Staff 3.1k

    nik over 4 years ago

    jval
    When sides are named as "That Side" and "This Side", "Logo Side" and "This Side" or "Logo side" and "Thiz side" can/should you place those as headings in the tracklisting


    Yes, this is fine.

    jval
    if I read the current guidelines strictly, they say pretty clearly actually that the headings need to describe the music. So, headings like "This Side" and "Logo Side" etc. aren't recommended anymore?


    Check out the examples given in the guidelines, they are close to what you are talking about - example http://www.discogs.com/Drexciya-Drexciya-2-Bubble-Metropolis/release/6061
  • ProfKolbi over 4 years ago

    loukash
    Less (words) is often more. ;)

    +1 because I can't really tell if anyone noticed;
    jval
    Some examples where people have added these even when they aren't really side names:

    These are all picture disc type centers with the opposing faces carrying the entire side/track listings. The latter has to work a little overtime with 'this/that' etc. just to keep it sorted.

  • jval over 4 years ago

    nik
    Yes, this is fine.

    Thanks for the clarification! At least I know now how the simple cases with side names containing this/that etc. are handled. So the "descriptive of the tracks" in the guidelines just means simply/basically the same as "referring to the tracks" and the old ruling still stands.

    But, I'm still not sure how to handle these cases (basically two, but I'm giving two examples of the second case) (where the texts aren't clear side names like in the simple cases, but instead are there to "just to keep it sorted" like ProfKolbi wrote if I understood the message correctly :)):

    1) Vinyl label containing a tracklisting like this:

    OTHER SIDE:
    A. Some Song (Club Mix)

    THIS SIDE:
    B1. Some Song (Original Mix)
    B2. Some Song (Instrumental)

    Should there be: a) no headings, b) headings as "Other Side" and "This Side" or c) headings as "Other Side:" and "This Side:"?

    2) Vinyl label containing blocks of texts on top of tracklistings like this: "A-Side (Other Side)" and "B-Side (This Side)". Should there be: a) no headings, b) headings as "Other Side" and "This Side", c) headings as "(Other Side)" and "(This Side)" or d) headings as "A-Side (Other Side)" and "B-Side (This Side)"?

    3) Vinyl label having tracklisting like this: "A (OTHER SIDE): Song (Mix 1)" and "B (THIS SIDE): Song (Mix 2)". Should there be: a) no headings, b) headings as "Other Side" and "This Side", c) headings as "(Other Side)" and "(This Side)" or d) headings as "A (Other Side)" and "B (This Side)"?

    Like I wrote in the other tread, once this is allowed it's not automatically clear where to draw the line. :) Is this about clear side names (= title type of texts) or about any heading type of texts (which don't have to be title type but can be just guiding texts on their own or as added to the actual titles)?

    Currently I'm thinking perhaps those generic additional guiding texts shouldn't be put as headings because we don't allow generic side names (like "Side 1") either. So perhaps the answer is "no" to those three questions and we should only put the texts as headings when they are clearly names of the sides?

    Sorry for a bit long message again, but I think examples are needed to keep this issue clear and explicit enough.
  • OLDFRIENDSFORSALE over 4 years ago

    before i do an eventual controversioal edit i ask first

    on this release
    The NPG* - Get Wild - The Single

    is it O.K.

    !PLAY OUTSIDE IN! 45 RPM
    A. Get Wild
    !PLAY INSIDE OUT! 33 RPM
    B1. Beautiful Girl
    B2. Hallucination Rain

    Header
    Track
  • jval over 4 years ago

    jval edited over 4 years ago
    A good question. I'm interested to hear what people say about that. Those are non-generic at least... :)

    Btw, a minor thing, but I would use A1 as the position even though there's only one track because the disc has "1." in front of the track name. :)

    (And it's "A1". Not "A1.". Because of RSG §12.2.8. :))
  • jval over 4 years ago

    OLDFRIENDSFORSALE
    is it O.K.

    Ok, no replies so: IMO it's O.K. because those headings aren't generic and entering them improves the clarity of the release page. I think the guidelines allow it because those headings are clearly "descriptive of the tracks below". The RPM parts are basically generic though. But the guidelines only forbid the usage of generic sides, track positions and separate medias as headings and those are format descriptions instead. Entering the full title is more "as on release" and since it's allowed it can/should be entered fully.

    About "OTHER SIDE:" and "A (OTHER SIDE)" etc: I'm not going to enter those as headings because I'm only entering texts which describe the music/vibe or are clearly side names (like this/that/logo etc.). Basically those texts aren't directly descriptive of the tracks but are instead descriptive of the sides as they are additional guiding texts (in the first case they are additional to the generic side designations already present on the release, and in the second case they are additional to the side name they point to). But I am entering additional texts when they are presented clearly as side names (like e.g. in the Bobby Brown case).
  • OLDFRIENDSFORSALE over 4 years ago

    what about (all the) cassettes with both side same tracks?

    Plays The Same Both Sides
    1. Title (Edit)
    2. Title (Album Version)

    insted of

    A1 Title (Edit)
    A2 Title (Album Version)
    B1 Title (Edit)
    B2 Title (Album Version)
  • DonHergeFan over 4 years ago

    Nope.
    "Plays The Same Both Sides" is not printed on the release itself.

    Also see RSG §12.14.1.
  • OLDFRIENDSFORSALE over 4 years ago

    Oh... I didn't know this 12.14.1...

    DonHergeFan
    Nope.
    "Plays The Same Both Sides" is not printed on the release itself.

    My example was about this release
    http://s.pixogs.com/image/R-4017401-1352496729-8553.jpeg
    Where I tested the header
    http://www.discogs.com/Prince-Letitgo/release/4017401
    But o.k. I wil remove it when I'm back on the computer ( I'm mobile right now)
  • jval over 4 years ago

    jval edited over 4 years ago
    Actually I don't think you need to remove the header. Just change 1 –> A1, 2 –> A2 and add B1, B2 so that RSG §12.14.1. is satisfied.

    IMO that's a non-generic header. It appears and it's "descriptive of the tracks below" so it can be entered. You naturally only have it once on the top (not for both sides).'

    Edit: RSG §12.14.2. requires that kind of text to be added anyway so why not use the heading feature when the release actually has that kind of heading. :)
  • Willow.the.Wisp over 4 years ago

    jval
    When sides are named as "That Side" and "This Side", "Logo Side" and "This Side" or "Logo side" and "Thiz side" can/should you place those as headings in the tracklisting

    nik
    Yes, this is fine.


    Do you remember how it have been done in the early days? :D

    http://www.discogs.com/history?release=9774#latest
    http://www.discogs.com/history?release=9773#latest
  • jval over 4 years ago

    I see. :) Well, things evolve. :)

    IMO "This Side" etc. are side names instead of track positions (if the record actually says "This 1", "This 2" etc. then I guess they would be positions but you very rarely see it appearing that way). So the "these days" way is IMO better. :)
  • OLDFRIENDSFORSALE over 4 years ago

    someone complain after six years a sub...
    (i'm not involved) :-)

    http://www.discogs.com/history?release=1238129#latest

    .
  • jval over 4 years ago

    Well, "Side One" etc. are indeed generic.
  • seehaas over 4 years ago

    OLDFRIENDSFORSALE
    someone complain after six years a sub...


    That someone was me and I commented because the wrong use of Headers was made a long time ago - otherwise I would have voted NMiC!
    When I see, who "is not involved": You promised to repair http://www.discogs.com/Prince-Letitgo/release/4017401 a month ago!

    Side One and Side Two ... are generic and forbidden as Headers
  • OLDFRIENDSFORSALE over 4 years ago

    sorry: simply forgotten - there are so (too) many issues, this can happen and it's not needed to threaten someone with "last chance" etc.
  • OLDFRIENDSFORSALE over 4 years ago

    if someone can help or guide me/us please: http://www.discogs.com/history?release=5648421&diff=5
  • Fauni-Gena over 4 years ago

    OLDFRIENDSFORSALE
    f someone can help or guide me/us please: http://www.discogs.com/history?release=5648421&diff=5

    Removing the headers on that release was correct. Generic headers are not permitted per the RSG and those were generic.
  • OLDFRIENDSFORSALE over 4 years ago

    OLDFRIENDSFORSALE edited over 4 years ago
    oh?

    maybe i was not precise enough: it was not about the removal of "generic headers" itself (that was my comment there too)
    it's about insert into the first header instead of "disc one" the Venue and date like it's many times by many users like here:
    http://www.discogs.com/Various-Shockadelica-50th-Anniversary-Tribute-To-The-Artist-Known-As-Prince/release/1377612
    or here:
    http://www.discogs.com/Prince-Paisley-Park-Extravaganza-Box-Set/release/6206175

    i think all those submitters following RSG §12.13.2. 12.13.2. Use a "Heading" whenever there is a block of text on the release that is descriptive of the tracks below, but is not the title of a musical piece. & RSG §12.13.3. When bonus tracks / bonus content is identified on the release itself as a separate section of the release content, a Heading can be used
  • jval over 4 years ago

    Read that RSG §12.13.3 fully. I guess it gives the answer in this case.
  • OLDFRIENDSFORSALE over 4 years ago

    which case please? i provided 3 examples and i could provide a lot of other examples where the Headers are used the same way to separate different concerts, venues, dates and bonustracks that not belong tho each other but are on the release...

    and what about 12.13.2.'s "To separate subsequent tracks which are not part of the Heading, add a blank Heading containing a single dash (-) after the last track in the group."

    SR?
  • jval over 4 years ago

    jval edited over 4 years ago
    OLDFRIENDSFORSALE
    which case please? i provided 3 examples

    Yes but this one was the one you asked about:
    OLDFRIENDSFORSALE
    if someone can help or guide me/us please: http://www.discogs.com/history?release=5648421&diff=5

    So I was of course talking about that case.

    The "bonus tracks are identified with an asterisk", right? :)

    Though, you have a point there:
    OLDFRIENDSFORSALE
    and what about 12.13.2.'s

    It's true the "Recorded Saturday 4th March 1995 Wembley Arena, London" is descriptive of the tracks and the dash could be used to separate the bonus tracks from it. Though, it's not "descriptive of the tracks below". I don't know how strictly that guideline is usually interpreted.

    Edit: If you just read the guideline, it seems like the idea behind it is to use headings only when the text on the physical release looks like a heading. That's what the "below" might be about. So, I would not personally add headings in that particular release. It's more "as on release" to just use the notes instead.
  • bobbley over 4 years ago

    Time to move on now, OLDFRIENDSFORSALE
  • OLDFRIENDSFORSALE over 3 years ago

    again and again: http://www.discogs.com/history?release=4000449&diff=9
    sorry, but sometime he remove randomly headings but sometimes obviousl invalod ones not
    and i don't see the reason to remove it from here also the explanation is not clear (where are asteriks?)
  • jval over 3 years ago

    The physical release doesn't have a heading for tracks 1-6.

    The asterisk is just an example in the guidelines. :) You know, one of the cases. This case is the footnote one.
  • OLDFRIENDSFORSALE over 3 years ago

  • marcelrecords over 3 years ago

    OLDFRIENDSFORSALE
    "Bat Side / This Side"


    why not?
    'Bat Side' is hardly generic, is it?
  • OLDFRIENDSFORSALE over 3 years ago

    .-) thank you 4 confirmation - xxx

    - i just wanted to make it waterproof against complainints

    because this invalid/valid header issue is quite often somehow not correct in use - but for all those i'll come back sooner or later with the specific exapmles and removal or change to index requests...
  • jval over 3 years ago

    That's definitely allowed and recommended by RSG §12.13.2. The second example in the guidelines matches with this case perfectly: Grant Calvin Weston* With James Blood Ulmer And Jamaaladeen Tacuma - Dance Romance
  • Marana over 3 years ago

    nik
    nik 9 months ago
    jval
    When sides are named as "That Side" and "This Side", "Logo Side" and "This Side" or "Logo side" and "Thiz side" can/should you place those as headings in the tracklisting

    Yes, this is fine.

    jval
    if I read the current guidelines strictly, they say pretty clearly actually that the headings need to describe the music. So, headings like "This Side" and "Logo Side" etc. aren't recommended anymore?

    Check out the examples given in the guidelines, they are close to what you are talking about - example http://www.discogs.com/Drexciya-Drexciya-2-Bubble-Metropolis/release/6061


    REALLY?

    Doesn't this rule contradict Nik's "Yes, this is fine" comment?
    12.13.4. Index Tracks and Headings should not be used for denoting generic side, track position, or separate media data (for example, 'Side A', 'CD1' etc), track numbering is used for this.

    Side A, Side B
    This Side, That Side
    Logo Side, Info Side

    Those are nothing but generic.

    The example release has the sides named "Fresh Water" and "Salt Water". And those are definitely not generic.
  • Marana over 3 years ago

    Waldlicht
    "Other Side" isn't a side name, it's just a description where you find that side.
    You wouldn't hardly find a side who called itself "Other Side".
    Or find "This Side" as a side name on the sleeve.


    Agree 100%
  • jval over 3 years ago

    jval edited over 3 years ago
    nik defined those as non-generic: http://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/521501fb94697336111a224a#2762422

    The positions can't reflect the exact same thing so those kind of headings should be entered. They are useful because they tell already here which side is which (without the need to look at the image or physical item). And entering them simply improves the release page on the "as on release" point of view.

    Like I said earlier, though, I consider only those as headings which look like headings on the physical item too. So I wouldn't enter Other Side when it appears as a "subtitle" or description, like in "A-Side (Other Side)". But if the same side includes both "Side A" and "Other Side" in different places then Other Side is ok (it needs to look like a heading though – it's not always 100% clear I guess :) but you know what I mean, a heading is ok but a description isn't because the field here is called heading).
  • Marana over 3 years ago

    Well to me, they are still generic. :P
    If I flip the record, then That Side/Other Side is this side and This Side is that side/other side. :D
    That is why those terms are generic..
    Anyway Imho, this is taking the whole "as on release" thing too far.
    But, they are approved. Personally I won't be adding them though.. :)
  • jval over 3 years ago

    I think the ruling should be interpreted to mean it doesn't matter if a heading is a side name or not. The only thing that matters is if it's a heading on the physical item or not. And then there's the exception to exclude the generic sides used as positions from that. Headings like "This Side" aren't used as positions (ok, they apparently used to be in the past but nowadays the better way is to use them as headings and if the release doesn't have positions then to use the standard positions).

    There's a difference between "Side A" and "Other Side". Side A can be either side but Other Side is the flip side to the info side. So in that sense "Side A" is purely generic and "Other Side" is not.

    Personally I would have been totally fine with a definition that those are generic too but I'm trying to be consistent because I believe we should try to unify the data in the database as much as possible. In this case the ruling means it's recommended to enter these as headings. I believe if nik meant they are only allowed but not recommended that would have been stated that way then. Since it wasn't it means it's a recommendation.
  • jval over 3 years ago

    I guess the reason these are allowed/recommended is that sometimes a record only says e.g. "That Side" and "This Side". It adds clarity when you can use them in the tracklist as headings instead of positions. Strictly thinking it's definitely more correct that way because "This Side" isn't really a position marker. It's a mention of the side. And if it's the only information then the position is just missing and we use the standard positions.

    nik, I think if it's supposed that "Other Side" and similar are entered as headings RSG §12.13.2. needs to be changed so that it's clear:

    Currently it begins with this sentence: Use a "Heading" whenever there is a block of text on the release that is descriptive of the tracks below, but is not the title of a musical piece.

    The part that is descriptive of the tracks below should be changed to "that is referring to the tracks below".
  • OLDFRIENDSFORSALE over 3 years ago

    i think, one year ago i added a invalid header here:
    http://www.discogs.com/history?release=3534391&diff=7

    and may i go OT & 'abuse' this thread for ask how to enter the main title too?
    it's (can i say?) "vandalized" last night with also removed other correct credits "as on release" ...
    but on the release (spine) are both titles listed, so i think it'should be indeed
    "U Make My Sun Shine / When Will We B Paid?"

  • jweijde over 3 years ago

    I have no problem at all with using "generic side names" as headers, as long as they're mentioned as such on the release.

    CD
    Track 1
    Track 2

    DVD
    Music Video 1
    Music Video 2

    What's really against entering "CD" or "DVD" as header when the release mentions these headers ?
    Yes, it's generic and already in the track positions, but does that really matter ?

    Things like "Same tracks on both sides" on http://www.discogs.com/history?release=4017401#latest are not presented as a header, just as a little note completely separate from the tracklist itself. So it shouldn't be entered as a header.
  • OLDFRIENDSFORSALE over 3 years ago

    jweijde
    "Same tracks on both sides"
    removed - thank you for pointing on that

  • jval over 3 years ago

    Oh it's indeed in another image. Sorry for giving the wrong advice back then. :)

    jweijde
    I have no problem at all with using "generic side names" as headers

    jweijde
    What's really against entering "CD" or "DVD" as header when the release mentions these headers ?
    Yes, it's generic and already in the track positions, but does that really matter ?

    Yep. That would simplify this thing a lot...

    I asked nik to clarify this but the response was because others have conceded there's no need to make a statement.

    OLDFRIENDSFORSALE
    i think, one year ago i added a invalid header here:
    http://www.discogs.com/history?release=3534391&diff=7

    I'm not sure what I missed or which principle/guideline I'm not remembering but the only thing invalid I notice about that header is the ":" at the end.

    OLDFRIENDSFORSALE
    and may i go OT & 'abuse' this thread for ask how to enter the main title too?
    it's (can i say?) "vandalized" last night with also removed other correct credits "as on release" ...
    but on the release (spine) are both titles listed, so i think it'should be indeed
    "U Make My Sun Shine / When Will We B Paid?"

    The only thing correct in that edit I can see was the Executive-Producer change. The image is a bit blurry though. Yes, most complete title is better in that kind of case, says the guidelines.
  • jval over 3 years ago

    This thread is mainly about vinyl because with CDs etc. there aren't these "Other Side", "This Side" etc. type of texts. And basically the problem with vinyl is with die-cut sleeve versions. With picture covers the official side names are on the cover usually and you don't have to wonder. But when the tracklist is appearing only on the label(s) it's natural some kind of pointing is needed. That's why these "funky names" have been invented in the first place.

    I guess since the generic ones aren't allowed I must handle this like I previously "decided". It makes no sense to enter every case as-is and then leave out the forbidden ones which look visually the same. It's much more logical to enter only the cases where the heading is at least kind of a "side name". E.g. when there are no other side positions or when the "funky name" is placed outside the tracklist (which is an indication of it having more "meaning" than just being there to help the tracklist to point to the sides).
  • jopla2 over 3 years ago

    jopla2 edited over 3 years ago
    This
    "Edit: If you want to skip the discussion and just read the outcome, skip to the conclusion."
    at the top of this page doesn't go anywhere.

    [Edit: Link has now been fixed. - Thanks.]
  • jval over 3 years ago

    jval edited over 3 years ago
    Discogs has broken the links... The anchors have been changed to a new style and the old style doesn't work any more.

    The original post contains confusing information because it has things which were cancelled later. So I guess the best solution is to copy-paste the actual list here and update the link to point to this post.

    Here's the "decision" I made back then which is the only "logical" way I guess because since some are forbidden we need a different logic than just "what appears". The logic I've used is whether the text is kind of a "side name" or a help text. Side name –> heading, help text –> no.

    jval

    – Add special vibe describing side names as headings always (even when they are secondary).

    – Add these guiding side names like "That Side"/"Logo Side"/"Other Side" and "This Side" as headings by default, even when they are secondary (written smaller than e.g. "A" and "B"/"AA"). There are two exceptions though:

    – Exception 1: When the guiding side describing texts are just additional help texts written together with the real side names as subtitles (e.g. in "A-Side (Other Side)") ignore them (not as headings) because they point to the real side names instead of the tracks then.

    – Exception 2: When the guiding side describing texts are on top of tracklisting (alone, so a case like "THIS SIDE – A" is still handled as "THIS SIDE" being a side name) and the release also has generic side names or designations, ignore them (not as headings) because they are then just pure guiding texts and not side names. Allowing side names as headings is already an exception to the original meaning of the heading feature so we should not go further (based on how it's worded/guided at the moment that generic side names aren't allowed etc.). It's a heading so it should be either a vibe describing title or a side name. Not a guiding text which just happens to be on top of the tracks. An exception is of course a case where the text is used also in runouts (like the Airscape case). Then it's a side name. But otherwise not. This rule applies only if the text is clearly part of the tracklisting (if it's used in tracklisting but presented very visible it's a side name). Basically usually "other side" is not a side name but "that side" and "logo side" are (though it's not really about the used words but how they appear).

    – When a side is named as "A", "Side A", "A-Side", "A Side", "Side 1", "1. Side" etc. ignore it (generic, positions reflect it).

    I guess the exception 2 is very hard to understand fully. Sorry. :) What I've tried to say there is it's not a side name type of heading if it's there only because it's telling which side is which. "THIS SIDE – A" can be seen as the label wanted to call the side kind of like that. But "A – THIS SIDE" would clearly look already like the text is there only to help with the pointing. This is of course an artificial rule but the line has to be drawn somewhere. :) And when the headings are at the tracklist section and there's also a generic side printed elsewhere, then the headings aren't like side names and shouldn't be entered here (because if they were then the guidelines should allow all headings to be entered).

    Repeating the newer comment I made because it's quite simple sounding and might help too: enter only the cases where the heading is at least kind of a "side name". E.g. when there are no other side positions or when the "funky name" is placed outside the tracklist (which is an indication of it having more "meaning" than just being there to help the tracklist to point to the sides).
  • jopla2 over 3 years ago

    I'm sorry but I find your style of writing very hard to follow. I'm perhaps not the "sharpest pencil" and the posts are very long - so I apologize if this is something that has already been covered:

    What about releases that have "This Side" and "That Side" as the only side names or descriptions throughout the release, perhaps A & B only appearing in matrices? Wouldn't it be logical to use as positions, let's say for a 4-track 12":
    This Side 1
    This Side 2
    That Side 1
    That Side 2

    - or is that off topic?
  • jval over 3 years ago

    jval edited over 3 years ago
    I know. :) No apologies needed because that's completely right. :) It doesn't help when the subject is very blurry like this one where you need to invent "fuzzy logic"... :D

    Not off topic at all. :)

    No it wouldn't be logical IMO. Those texts are then side pointers. They are not track numbering pointers (positions). If you know what I mean. In such case the positions are missing from the labels and perhaps available on the runouts. And if not, you use the standard Discogs positions (A and B or in case of more tracks, A, B1 and B2).

    In that kind of case the most correct solution is to add "That Side" and "This Side" as headings, and to use the positions from the matrix#s. It's the same thing as if a release states "Side 1". You don't enter "Side 1" as position then but take the position from the matrix# or use the standard positions. IMO positions should never be really long. Generally speaking I would say the long ones are headings then.

    I think this is exactly why nik has approved (old thread, nowadays we use headings for these – not index tracks) the usage of the headings for these cases and confirmed it in this thead. Here's the comment where it's confirmed headings are better than positions. Notice that it's a really old thread and nowadays the separate headings (instead of index tracks) mean it's basically always better to use them instead of positions because even cases like "That side 1" actually mean "side name" "1". It's a visual thing if they are together. It still means the side then. The only exception I can think of would be a case where "This Side" has been repeated multiple times. Then it's really used as a position. I bet those cases are super rare. :)

    So definitely not off topic. :)
  • jopla2 over 3 years ago

    But we already use sides in positions, like you say: A1. "1" is the position there and the side is added. Also, guidelines say it's preferred to use the positions that appear on the release - so why woudn't the same apply to sides?

    Going for matrices to find sides to be used in positions is too extreme in my opinion and in no way does it serve the purpose to make the sub more idenfiable.

    I agree the positions shuldn't be artificial - but there are cases when "This/That" is used throughout the release, on sleeve and labels, possibly even in matrices - although IMO matrices shouldn't be a requirement.
  • jval over 3 years ago

    Yes, if the release really says:

    That Side 1: Name Of Track/Version
    This Side 1: Name Of Track/Version
    This Side 2: Name Of Track/Version

    ...then they are indeed positions. But usually a release says something like:

    That Side:
    1: Name Of Track/Version
    2: Name Of Track/Version
    This Side:
    1: Name Of Track/Version
    2: Name Of Track/Version

    Those "That Side" and "This Side" aren't then positions but "side names" and should go as headings instead (if the labels don't also have "A" and/or "B" in which case they should be totally ignored since we aren't allowed to enter all headings and are entering only "side names").

    The actual positions from the release are only "1" and "2" in that example. If you enter positions as "That Side 1" you are inventing the "side names" to something they aren't on the physical release. :)

    If a release has:

    Side A:
    1: Name Of Track/Version
    2: Name Of Track/Version
    Side AA:
    1: Name Of Track/Version
    2: Name Of Track/Version

    ...it's the same thing. The actual positions are just "1" and "2". Of course you then use positions as A1, A2, AA1 and AA2 but that doesn't mean you haven't combined the data then. :) That case can't be used as a reason for combining "That Side" and "1" because in that case there just aren't any full positions given. Ok, you could theoretically combine them as "That 1" and "This 1" etc. too but I don't think that should be done. Positions should be A or AA unless it's absolutely clear (no reasonable doubt) the release uses something else.

    You're not wrong. That's allowed. It's just not the best practise which is recommended. The headings are meant for exactly these kind of cases and are the recommended solution. And honestly, they do look much more clear in these cases. And more identifiable because aren't "That Side" etc. appearing exactly like headings on the physical release..? :) (Of course, again, it's a different thing if they are really used as positions but like I said, that's super rare actually.)
  • jval over 3 years ago

    The headings you've used looked like just release subtitles to me at first but I guess they are headings because one of the releases has different headings on each side. Those have also "as" and "bs" as the sides. I guess you made a good decision. These are hard. :)
  • jval over 3 years ago

    jval edited over 3 years ago
    Well I guess you could take the positions from the release as combined from the "as" and "i" this way:

    ai, aii, bi, bii

    Would those be better than the standard positions, I don't know. Positions from the release are preferred so in that sense... :)

    Edit:

    If it's allowed to take only the first letter from the "as" and "bs" of course. We kind of do that in some cases. E.g. if a side is named AA-Side we take only the AA. :)

    Edit:

    BTW that "Special Limited Edition Remixes Vol. I" isn't really part of the title (if it was it would appear on centre labels too). I think the release title is actually: "Talking With Myself (The Groove Corporation Sessions)". I would place this to format free text: 1/3 (Special Limited Edition Remixes Vol. I)

    I don't know if it's allowed but I would use headings like "That Side (The Fingers Sessions)". :)

    And now that I think about this perhaps asi, asii, bsi, bsii would be the most as on release positions. :)

    BTW, more proof that This/That/etc. are allowed as headings (please, again notice that we used to use index tracks for this but nowadays we use headings) because they aren't nice as positions: http://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/183428#2316984
  • OLDFRIENDSFORSALE over 3 years ago

    is this totela time a heading???
    http://www.discogs.com/history?release=6911354&diff=2

    (or should it be a index track?)
  • marcelrecords over 3 years ago

    OLDFRIENDSFORSALE
    is this totela time a heading??


    no, it isn't, that should be removed and put into the notes
  • bobbley over 3 years ago

    marcelrecords
    no, it isn't, that should be removed and put into the notes

    Absolutely. You beat me to it!
  • rikroc over 3 years ago

    bobbley
    no, it isn't, that should be removed and put into the notes

    I've added reels that have side durations listed in headings. Since it's more than just a generic side and descriptive of the tracks below RSG §12.13.2. Why wouldn't this be allowed?
    Quicksilver* - Just For Love
  • bobbley over 3 years ago

    rikroc
    I've added reels that have side durations listed in headings. Since it's more than just a generic side

    How so?

    rikroc
    and descriptive of the tracks below

    Track listing does that as per RSG §12.3.4

    rikroc
    Why wouldn't this be allowed?

    Because it's superfluous info: where's the block of text referred to in guideline you cite? Just state in the notes that the release states the length of the sides as such and such.

  • rikroc over 3 years ago

    rikroc edited over 3 years ago
    bobbley
    Because it's superfluous info: where's the block of text referred to in guideline you cite? Just state in the notes that the release states the length of the sides as such and such.

    "Descriptive of the tracks below" RSG §12.13.2
    Who decides what's "superfluous"? If it's not prohibited, it's allowed, right?
  • rikroc over 3 years ago

    In addition, the headings I've added Quicksilver* - Just For Love are taken directly from the release. They are not a footnote in the credits.
  • jval over 3 years ago

    The example you gave doesn't have those headings on the cover.
  • rikroc over 3 years ago

    jval
    The example you gave doesn't have those headings on the cover.

    Check label
  • bobbley over 3 years ago

    rikroc
    If it's not prohibited, it's allowed, right?

    If you had a set of guidelines that said 'don't do this', 'don't do that', 'don't do this either', 'don't do that either' (etc, you get the point) it would be a very boring set of guidelines!
    So, the guidelines by also saying what is allowed defines what is prohibited...
    What I'm saying is, just because it doesn't specifically say you shouldn't do such and such, doesn't mean such and such is allowed...

    Having said that, 12.3.4 clearly states what you should not do : "... Headings should not be used for denoting generic side, track position, or separate media data (for example, 'Side A', 'CD1' etc), track numbering is used for this.", which is pretty conclusive as to what to do, IMO.
  • rikroc over 3 years ago

    bobbley
    Having said that, 12.3.4 clearly states what you should not do : "... Headings should not be used for denoting generic side, track position, or separate media data (for example, 'Side A', 'CD1' etc), track numbering is used for this.", which is pretty conclusive as to what to do, IMO.

    I've entered the information exactly as it appears on the release... The headers are "Descriptive of the tracks below" RSG §12.13.2 and have additional information besides the generic side. Do side durations listed in a header fall under "etc."? If so, that should be clarified.

  • bobbley over 3 years ago

    rikroc
    I've entered the information exactly as it appears on the release...

    Show me where in the guidelines it says you should do this.
    What is stated is when to use headings and when not to.

    rikroc
    The headers are "Descriptive of the tracks below"

    Nope: as per 12.3.4, you have used A1, A2...B1, B2 etc to do that.
  • jval over 3 years ago

    jval edited over 3 years ago
    rikroc
    Check label

    Yes I saw that but my point was they aren't on the cover. It's not a requirement (if the sides have special names they are entered as headings even when the names are present on the labels only) but in these kind of unsure cases it's a sign the text isn't meant as a heading really but is only a description...

    I think this is basically the same kind of case as "A-Side (Other Side)". We don't enter "Other Side" as the heading then because it's only a description of "A-Side" instead of the tracks. In this case in "Side One: (20:05)" the "20:05" is there basically as extra information about "Side One". And "A-Side" and "Side One" are generic so we aren't supposed to enter "A-Side (Other Side)" or "Side One: (20:05)" as headings either. The extra information doesn't make them non-generic in these cases because they are not there as in the purpose of heading type of texts, e.g. as side names. They are there as descriptions of the preceding text giving extra information (helping which side is which or like in this case, telling the total duration). If the description contains valid information it should be placed in the notes.

    OLDFRIENDSFORSALE
    is this totela time a heading???
    http://www.discogs.com/history?release=6911354&diff=2

    A heading can't even point to tracks above so that one is a clear case. :)
  • rikroc over 3 years ago

    Seems this point could be argued either way using the guidelines, but I'll bow to the consensus. It would be helpful if 12.3.4 "Headings should not be used for denoting generic side, track position, or separate media data (for example, 'Side A', 'CD1' etc), track numbering is used for this."
    was modified to read:
    "Headings should not be used for denoting generic side, track position, or separate media data (for example, 'Side A', 'CD1' durations etc), track numbering is used for this.

  • jopla2 over 3 years ago

    I support something like what's suggested above. It would be useful if there was a handy way to submit side/program lengths - but it's a different topic.
  • punkergott over 3 years ago

    What is with label or cat number in the heading, applies RSG §12.13.4. here too?
    For example, Digital Mystikz - Urban Ethics, Digital Mystikz - Return II Space & Digital Mystikz - Return II Space and Coki - Don't Get It Twisted, don´t look at the tracklist )-:
    regards Punky
  • jval over 3 years ago

    My opinion is if they appear on the release as headings they are ok to enter as such. But if not, the headings shouldn't be made up here.
  • punkergott over 3 years ago

    punkergott edited over 3 years ago
    jval
    But if not, the headings shouldn't be made up here.


    the infos are from the backcovers,
    for Digital Mystikz - Return II Space and Coki - Don't Get It Twisted,
    so they are ok?
    At release Digital Mystikz - Urban Ethics the cat numbers are not mentioned,
    regards
  • jval over 3 years ago

    I'd say all are ok in this case. It looks like a heading on the physical release. And it seems the cat# is more than just a cat#; it's like the name of the disc. So since those releases usually have it printed it might be ok to use it even when it's not appearing physically. But only as an exception because there's a common pattern. You know, compare to blank white labels where we still enter actual track names. Naturally, this is only my personal intuitive opinion.
  • punkergott over 3 years ago

    jval
    Naturally, this is only my personal intuitive opinion.


    Thanks, i get this one, Digital Mystikz - Urban Ethics, new this week and stumbled over the headings and the tracklist and when i take a look at my other Dubstep records i saw the rest, regards Punky
  • MusicNutter over 3 years ago

    DonHergeFan
    DonHergeFan]
    Nope.
    "Plays The Same Both Sides" is not printed on the release itself.

    Also see RSG §12.14.1.


    It is printed on cassettes, not all the time but regularly
  • bbm54 over 3 years ago

    jval
    My opinion is if they appear on the release as headings they are ok to enter as such. But if not, the headings shouldn't be made up here.


    Examples do violate this guideline imho:

    12.13.4. Index Tracks and Headings should not be used for denoting generic side, track position, or separate media data (for example, 'Side A', 'CD1' etc), track numbering is used for this.


    As far as I can see, in punkergott's examples, the headings contained the catalogue# of the respective records.
    This is separate media data. It is common to enter cat# of single records from multi-record releases in BAOI with description 'Catalogue# Record 1' etc.

    From a pragmatic point of view: The headers do not add additional information, which cannot be entered elsewhere.
    To leave the tracklist without headers seems fine to me.
  • jval over 3 years ago

    Well I wouldn't say cat# type of disc numbers are generic. "That Side" and "This Side" are allowed as headings too so it seems the guideline applies to only cases it specifically lists.

    When those appear as headings on the physical release and are entered as headings here there's no need to enter them into BaOI too so the information isn't duplicated on the release page then.

    Personally I'd be fine either way but based on nik's comments it seems these are allowed as headings. Though, it's a bit different situation because they are disc numbers which usually go to BaOI's Other. But RSG §12.13.4. doesn't seem to apply to this case because the separate media data means just generic appearances like "vinyl 1" or "CD1" etc. which can be represented with the track numbering.
  • bbm54 over 3 years ago

    jval
    Well I wouldn't say cat# type of disc numbers are generic.


    This is not what I wrote. I am happy, you ignore my arguments and start the philosophy on your private guidelines.
    Cat# is not generic, but an identifier of the release. It has nothing to do with the tracklist.
    And before you start to argue, please just skip RSG §12.13.4 and move to the next paragraph:

    12.13.5. Index Tracks and Headings should not be used for adding incidental information which belongs in the Release Notes.

    or go back to the basics
    12.1. This section is where we list all the details regarding the individual tracks.


    Is the cat# of the record any information regarding the individual tracks?

    In fact, I do like bars very much, but not in Discogs as headings. Why? 'Cause this is only some sort of visual element, where you cannot put in data or do a search with.

    Ever thought about, that you will not be able to search for the cat# any more, when it is part of a heading?
  • bbm54 over 3 years ago

    The more I think about, the better would be a clear RSG §12.13.6

    12.13.6. Index Tracks and Headings should not be used for adding information which belongs in the other sections of the submission
  • jval over 3 years ago

    bbm54
    you ignore my arguments and start the philosophy on your private guidelines.

    I didn't ignore them. I don't have private guidelines. It just happens to be this case isn't mentioned in the guidelines specifically. A disc cat# can't be represented with the track numbering the guideline talks about.

    bbm54
    Is the cat# of the record any information regarding the individual tracks?

    Well in the same way "Logo Side" is.

    bbm54
    Ever thought about, that you will not be able to search for the cat# any more, when it is part of a heading?

    I just tested you can search the headings too.

    Of course, a good database design has the same data always in the same field. Though, still, if it looks like a heading it could be entered as such, it seems. Unless the rules are changed of course.
  • bbm54 over 3 years ago

    jval
    A disc cat# can't be represented with the track numbering the guideline talks about.


    Thanks, maybe I didn't understand you well

    jval
    Well in the same way "Logo Side" is.


    I don't think so. "Logo side" at least tells you, which side you have to flip for listening to the track, the cat# tells you how to order the release. I agree, though, that "Logo Side" is not the best descriptor for the tracks below.

    jval
    Unless the rules are changed of course.

    I am currently preparing a review. This forum topic and another one helps in making things easier, I'd say...
  • jval over 3 years ago

    jval edited over 3 years ago
    About 12.13.5. I think that one just simply states you can't use the headings as a place for targeted notes. Instead, you need to use the release notes. You know, that guideline just means headings can't be used for information which doesn't look like a heading on the physical release.

    bbm54
    the cat# tells you how to order the release.

    Actually not in this case because those aren't release cat#s. They are only disc numbers.

    You could also argue that when a disc cat# is placed as a heading on the physical release it becomes like a name of the disc, a heading.

    Edit: Like I said, I do understand also why it could be useful to always place the same data in the same fields. But, things aren't always so clear. The same data can be a name and a number at the same time in some rare cases (this case is naturally a rare one).
  • bbm54 over 3 years ago

    jval
    They are only disc numbers.


    ...and therefore identifiers, which go to BAOI and nowhere else.
  • jval over 3 years ago

    Maybe we should enter them twice, as headings because they are names of the discs, and into BaOI's Other because they are identifiers.

    It feels strange though to enter something into two fields if it appears only once.
  • PabloPlato over 3 years ago

    jval
    "That Side" and "This Side" are allowed as headings too so it seems the guideline applies to only cases it specifically lists.


    RSG §12.13.4. Index Tracks and Headings should not be used for denoting generic side, track position, or separate media data (for example, 'Side A', 'CD1' etc), track numbering is used for this.

    i think This Side, That Side, Other Side,...are covered by the Etc.
    or do they need to explicitly mention those generic side identification terms, as well as "Side B" (they didnt mention that one either!)

    i think it's better to think of side identifiers are Header field worthy only when they are unique and noteworthy.

    whether cat or matrix numbers are if presented as a side identifier, i don't feel those should be placed in Header fields.
    in Digital Mystikz - Urban Ethics those are the individual record's cat#/matrix# and should go into the BAOI field, not the header field. they certainly are not presented as titles for each record on their respective labels, so i don't know why they are currently presented as if they are.
  • jval over 3 years ago

    PabloPlato
    i think This Side, That Side, Other Side,...are covered by the Etc.

    The staff has commented those are ok as headings. And it is useful with those releases which don't specify A or 1 etc. because the heading glues the side name on the label with the side identifier on the run out...

    We could do without those as headings but they have always been allowed.

    PabloPlato
    they certainly are not presented as titles for each record on their respective labels, so i don't know why they are currently presented as if they are.

    They are presented as headings on the physical release back cover.

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