• Piotrlerouge over 3 years ago

    There is a huge chaos reigning between the following labels: BTF, AMS (3), Vinyl Magic. Despite my previous effort to bring this to light (Vinyl Magic), no one reacted and nothing has been done so I mailed a few days ago some questions to the label staff; here is the exchange; please join the debate so we can establish and agree on the correction guidelines!

    Hello Pierre,
    Vinyl Magic more or less ceased in the late nineties, its stock and licenses where taken over by BTF.

    Unfortunately BTF kept catalogues of the old licenses and also its own catalogue naming (VM), so the difference is basically that all papersleeves are BTF as a label even if catalogue is VM. Most regular jewelbox cd’s can be listed as Vinyl Magic (as long as there is no BTF brand on them). AMS is a completely different company. Now my reply
    :

    1. Are there CD or LP references where BTF should be considered as the label / brand - in this case what kind of releases? - or is BTF exclusively a record company (credited for production, copyrights, etc...) and distributor?

    Please see explanation above. BTF is both label and distro

    2. In the case of the VM Remaster Series papersleeves, should the label be Vinyl Magic or Vinyl Magic 2000 Records, even if the latter's logo isn't printed any longer on the disc? (like for ex. VMCD152, A. Radius "Carta Straccia") ? Or is the label something else?

    In this case label is BTF

    3. Why can we see on your web site on the label line: Btf - AMS?

    This is due to the internal IT of our distro, as AMS is exclusively distributed by BTF, so they are treated the same on the webiste even if those are different companies.

    3. In the case of AMS, again, why can we see on your web site on the label line: Btf - AMS? Again, is BTF appearing as label? Or is the label just AMS?

    Please see previous replies. For all AMS releases please check the brandnew site AMS

    If there is a precise chronology in the appearance of the various label names, this would be fantastic to know it and classifying the releases for the database would become much easier and more correct. Thanks for helping us understanding your choices!

    As far as I remember:

    Vinyl Magic 1989 – 2001

    Btf 2002- today while first papersleeves came around 2003

    AMS 2006 - today

  • ChrisEfterklang over 3 years ago

    Good luck cleaning that up ;-). I would say that based on this you have enough to at least amend the profiles of those three labels to include the information here so that future new 'entries' into the database are entered properly.
  • Eviltoastman over 3 years ago

    In other words, ignore all that and credit what you find on the release.
  • ultimathulerecords over 3 years ago

    With whom were you conversing [=Piotrlerouge]?

    The main-man Massimo Buffa, aka Max is the one who has been around since we first ordered from them in 1989, although as far as I know, he was one of a few partners when they started. When we visited the Vinyl Magic shop in the 90s he was pretty much running everything alone, and he shut up shop when we went across the road for a drink and chat. After that they pretty much folded, started anew as Vinyl Magic 2000, then again as a division of BTF, later establishing the AMS label as well. I've not ordered from them anywhere near so much over the past decade or so (largely due to higher prices for these "deluxe" card cover releases), and that I've found other cheaper sources of supply on occasions for things we need. Anyway, since then they became part of BTF/AMS/etc, other new partners came and went, but Max was still in charge last I knew.

    That aside though, there's not really that much to "sort out" as Eviltoastman wisely says "In other words, ignore all that and credit what you find on the release."

    As to Alberto Radius - Carta Straccia all images I can find are BTF on the cover or obi strip. I've never had that issue. What does it say on the disc label? In spite of the VM cat.no. - if it doesn't say Vinyl Magic anywhere - and the logos are BTF, then it's on BTF!
  • ultimathulerecords over 3 years ago

    In reference to Piotrlerouge's previous thread: http://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/393720 from a year ago, I've sorted out the Beard Of Stars Records label misinformation. Should be easy to sort out the others.
  • Piotrlerouge over 3 years ago

    ultimathulerecords
    With whom were you conversing

    Matthias Scheller, the manager of AMS (3) ... and of course BTF staff member.

    ultimathulerecords
    if it doesn't say Vinyl Magic anywhere - and the logos are BTF, then it's on BTF!

    Vinyl Magic mostly appears via the catalog number (VMxxx) but hasn't appeared for ages with their logo. The biggest bug is that there isn't really a BTF logo, unless you take the underscored btf.it as logo (bottom left on the back cover + OBI scan of Carta Straccia) ! This is what appears most of times on the newer releases ... but I've always wondered if it should be taken as a logo.

    ultimathulerecords
    That aside though, there's not really that much to "sort out"

    There are at least all AMS (3) releases listed with BTF as label! And I would like to change this because I mean this is 100% wrong! So says the label manager too. As I don't want to give the impression of doing things alone on my own, your and other's accept (or denial) would matter on this issue. I'm not afraid of doing more concerning Vinyl Magic being reverted to BTF if there is a consensus for it but at least, this one should be imo fixed.
  • ultimathulerecords over 3 years ago

    In his previous post Piotrlerouge states...
    3. There is an entry for Vinyl Magic 2000 Records. This was once created to differentiate newer from vintage prog ... but it doesn't seem to have lived up to the expectations, was maybe confusing and rather quickly abandoned.

    This is completely wrong. Vinyl Magic 2000 Records was the label and VM 2000 Records the company when Massimo restarted in 1999 - nothing at all to do with new progressive - look at the Vinyl Magic 2000 Records page, all 1970s reissues except for the Campo Di Marte and Bonansone*, Dedalus - Nomos Apache Alpha releases.

    Vinyl Magic's "New Progressive" series was the earlier VM NP releases issued 1992 to 1993
  • Piotrlerouge over 3 years ago

    One of the worst, just as ONE example: I Teoremi .... lists everything possible except the correct label, not mentioned once!!
  • Piotrlerouge over 3 years ago

    ultimathulerecords
    This is completely wrong. Vinyl Magic 2000 Records was the label and VM 2000 Records the company when Massimo restarted in 1999 - nothing at all to do with new progressive

    I know, this was my mistake and it has already been pointed several times back then. Thanks for the friendly extra fat fingerprint and spreading here and then on listings!
  • ultimathulerecords over 3 years ago

    ultimathulerecords edited over 3 years ago
    Piotrlerouge
    Matthias Scheller, the manager of AMS (3) ...


    Never heard of him. I currently get BTF news mails from a Maurizio. Ah, I see at http://www.ams-records.it/ Matthias Scheller's the main contact for AMS, so nothing to do with BTF or Vinyl Magic as far as I can tell. In that case you were asking the wrong person about Vinyl Magic.

    As to BTF, here's how I see it...

    BTF srl are the company

    Based on the "logo" btf.it is the label --- [edit] no, strike that - seems to an alternative name for distribution, see below...
  • ultimathulerecords over 3 years ago

    As to: I Teoremi - I Teoremi AMS 45LP - no one can sort that out until someone adds correct images, or an owner corrects it.
  • Piotrlerouge over 3 years ago

    ultimathulerecords
    so nothing to do with BTF or Vinyl Magic as far as I can tell. In that case you were asking the wrong person about Vinyl Magic.

    I see, you haven't maybe understood yet that all those guys are working for the same company and therefore even if having specific caps on their heads (it's called delegation) do take part in the same board, strategy, budget meetings, etc... so if I take your own words, Maurizio would also be the wrong guy since he is today responsible of an entity called (laugh) Bonaparte Music!
    I do agree with the last part regarding label versus company.
  • Piotrlerouge over 3 years ago

    oh I forgot: where do you think Mathias Scheller worked before AMS (3) was created? Could it be ... BTF?
  • Piotrlerouge over 3 years ago

    ultimathulerecords
    Ah, I see at http://www.ams-records.it/

    ...and a new headache if you noticed it! Their new web site presents the label and logo as AMS Records ... no longer AMS (3). I hadn't been there but I hurried checking out some of their newest releases and ... bingo! AMS Records now logoed on print! So, another warning to add to the current profile!
  • stevefreeman over 3 years ago

    Release Psycheground* - Psychedelic And Underground Music has AMS and Vinyl Magic logos plus "Distr. BTF srl", so AMS (3), Vinyl Magic and BTF srl are fine as they are.

    I'm not convinced that BTF should be in Discogs as a label. Are there any releases that have a BTF logo without anything else?
  • ultimathulerecords over 3 years ago

    I didn't know of Mathias Scheller until today.

    Anyway. History and hearsay aside, for all these later post 2000 releases....
    Just add what the logos say as labels.
    2006+ Some are Vinyl Magic, some are AMS, some are co-releases by both labels.
    Distribution is usually attributed to BTF srl, although there are exceptions.

    Not sure if btf.it should be the label on that Radius release, as it just as easily be on a label called "Italian Progressive Rock" based on the obi-strip back panel.

    So, in all, nothing to sort out except document and update as you can based on releases you have and/or those of which are documented by good images.
  • Piotrlerouge over 3 years ago

    stevefreeman
    Are there any releases that have a BTF logo without anything else?


    ultimathulerecords
    Not sure if btf.it should be the label on that Radius release

    btf.it is the only *logo-like* layout I've ever seen printed on releases - never seen btf alone - and many papersleeves bear this one, not only the one mentioned as example.
  • Piotrlerouge over 3 years ago

    ultimathulerecords
    2006+ Some are Vinyl Magic, some are AMS, some are co-releases by both labels.

    But NEVER BTF and AMS together, please! They are - as pointed by the manager - two different brands and this would not be clever to make or let be an amalgam of those two, OK?
  • eventyrrecords over 3 years ago

    @ Piotrlerouge > Hello Pierre, great work! So, resuming the matters here's what to do with those labels, tell me if I'm wrong.
    BTF is both a label and a distributor. It has to be listed as label for all the papersleeve releases since 2002 with VM prefix catalogue number. While it has to be submitted as distributor in all the other cases when stated on the release.
    AMS (3) is a record label only and has to be listed for all CD, DVD and LP releases with AMS prefix catalogue number unless possible exceptions.
    Vinyl Magic is a record label only and has to be listed with all CD releases with VM and VMNP prefix catalogue number, mostly housed in jewel case.
    Any other exceptions has to be valued case to case. We'll help each other for doing it.
    Before starting with any fixing let us know your thoughts and if you agree with this. Greetings from Italy :-))
  • ultimathulerecords over 3 years ago

    eventyrrecords
    BTF is both a label and a distributor. It has to be listed as label for all the papersleeve releases since 2002 with VM prefix catalogue number.


    We need image proof of it to use BTF as a label. I think more research is needed yet.
  • stevefreeman over 3 years ago

    eventyrrecords
    BTF is both a label and a distributor. It has to be listed as label for all the papersleeve releases since 2002 with VM prefix catalogue number

    It can only be used as a label or distributor if stated on the release. I have just found one CD that has BTF as distributor (Posto Blocco 19 - Motivi Di Sempre) but none with the BTF logo.
  • ultimathulerecords over 3 years ago

    btf.it established as a label here: Metamorfosi - …E Fu Il Sesto Giorno the first I've come across with it clearly as a label logo with catalogue number on the disc. (yes, I know it's a Japanese Belle Antique release, but proves it is the label name / logo)
  • Piotrlerouge over 3 years ago

    ultimathulerecords
    the first I've come across with it clearly as a label logo with catalogue number on the disc.

    And the same logo you'll find on many back covers, papersleeve OBI. There are plenty of releases where the logo isn't printed on disc and it has never stopped us to legitimate a label; the question is double:
    1. do we recognize it as the current brand of BTF anytime we see it printed somewhere on the release (and not exclusively on disc)
    2. if we recognize it as valid, would we use as name BTF or btf.it or Btf.it ?

    eventyrrecords
    AMS
    (3) is a record label only and has to be listed for all CD, DVD and LP releases with AMS prefix catalogue number unless possible exceptions.

    I already have set a warning on the AMS profile that with their new web site, they also have in 2015 changed the name of the label to AMS Records and you can see the new logo on the profile's scans. Funny point, even naming a file can reveal their thoughts! The name of the file for the new logo was logoAmsNew_400px-300x300 (1).png. You can go to the label's home page, click on the logo, select "save image as" and read what you see. We have also therefore to agree creating this new label for all releases (from 2015 on) showing the new name printed! Here's one example: Django. It's not very clear but enough to see it (second scan).
    As to all the Vinyl Magic related labels already existing in the database, I think the best is to keep them, as long as the label's name or its logo are printed on the releases or visible on upload scans.
  • FROCIANDRO over 3 years ago

    Piotrlerouge
    ultimathulerecordsthe first I've come across with it clearly as a label logo with catalogue number on the disc.
    And the same logo you'll find on many back covers, papersleeve OBI. There are plenty of releases where the logo isn't printed on disc and it has never stopped us to legitimate a label; the question is double:
    1. do we recognize it as the current brand of BTF anytime we see it printed somewhere on the release (and not exclusively on disc)
    2. if we recognize it as valid, would we use as name BTF or btf.it or Btf.it ?

    eventyrrecordsAMS
    (3) is a record label only and has to be listed for all CD, DVD and LP releases with AMS prefix catalogue number unless possible exceptions.
    I already have set a warning on the AMS profile that with their new web site, they also have in 2015 changed the name of the label to AMS Records and you can see the new logo on the profile's scans. Funny point, even naming a file can reveal their thoughts! The name of the file for the new logo was logoAmsNew_400px-300x300 (1).png. You can go to the label's home page, click on the logo, select "save image as" and read what you see. We have also therefore to agree creating this new label for all releases (from 2015 on) showing the new name printed! Here's one example: Django. It's not very clear but enough to see it (second scan).
    As to all the Vinyl Magic related labels already existing in the database, I think the best is to keep them, as long as the label's name or its logo are printed on the releases or visible on upload scans.


    +1
  • ultimathulerecords over 3 years ago

    Where btf.it is is clearly used as a label...

    Label = btf.it = exactly as per the text / logo.

    Where BTF srl is is clearly used as distributor...

    Distributor = BTF srl = exactly as per the text / logo.

    We DO NOT interpret or make up things on Discogs.

    Although I'm not quite sure what we do where btf.it = the distributor (on a few releases only)
  • ultimathulerecords over 3 years ago

    Piotrlerouge
    they also have in 2015 changed the name of the label to AMS Records


    I think that constitutes a new label brand separate to older AMS releases.
    Seems to be a restructuring and/or new company.
  • ladrodipolli over 3 years ago

    ultimathulerecords
    Distributor = BTF srl = exactly as per the text / logo.


    Also in release i have update i don't have see never this Vinyl Magic 2000 logo if i'm right
  • Piotrlerouge over 3 years ago

    ultimathulerecords
    We DO NOT interpret or make up things on Discogs.

    I would like to say you're right but looking at for example all the creative studio profiles found around here or misunderstandings between companies roles, proliferation of identical artist profiles with different spellings instead of the use of ANV, I am firmly convinced that interpretations do abound here at Discogs ....

    ultimathulerecords
    I think that constitutes a new label brand separate to older AMS releases.

    Yes, agreed but it's imo necessary that we draw attention to this for upcoming users not familiar with those labels; already fixed in the label's profile.
  • Piotrlerouge over 3 years ago

    stevefreeman
    I have just found one CD that has BTF as distributor

    If I haven't misunderstood you, I must say that I have listed many releases - copy at hand - printing in the text somewhere (booklet, back cover) "distributed by" or "distibution by" BTF. That's nearly impossible not to cross this; all remastered VM papersleeves feature on the OBI (under the barcode) "Distrib. BTF srl"
  • Piotrlerouge over 3 years ago

    First trial to recap the infos gathered so far, following a backward chronology:

    Provided we have name or logo printed on the release

    + from 2015 on, the new AMS label will be listed as AMS Records. Releases prior to 2015 are listed under AMS (3); the label started in 2006; the choice of this label will probably always exclude the simultaneous presence of BTF as label; in case of missing AMS logo, the presence of a catalog number with suffix AMS, followed by a number, should be sufficient a proof to choose this label

    + wherever we see btf.it printed (papersleeve cardboard inner sleeve, disc, booklet, back cover, spine), it will be used as label and may override a diverging catalog number pointing at another label (like VM??? pointing at Vinyl Magic). Example: Carta Straccia.
    This doesn't exclude other label names to appear (collaborative works). Example of this: Boomerang where the OBI scan shows the logos of both AMS (3) and Vinyl Magic.

    + releases not showing btf.it but presenting a catalog number strating with VM and followed by a number will be listed under Vinyl Magic, even if the label's logo is lacking (they have to be placed somewhere!). Example: Cliché + Pinocchio Bazaar

    + releases listed under Vinyl Magic 2000 Records are kept like they are

    + BTF srl is used for distribution credits. Releases listing BTF as label are not valid and the label will be changed consequently to the appropriate name, according to the data printed (btf.it, AMS (3), Vinyl Magic)

    + I could not find a single release listing the Vinyl Magic's "New Progressive" series, the earlier VM NP releases issued 1992 to 1993. This Series may have been listed in the release notes but isn't referenced yet in the database.

    Comments or corrections? Votes?
  • Piotrlerouge over 3 years ago

    ultimathulerecords
    Not sure if btf.it should be the label on that Radius release, as it just as easily be on a label called "Italian Progressive Rock" based on the obi-strip back panel.

    Alan, if you own any papersleeve of the VM remastered series, notice that btf.it IS printed in huge letters on the cardboard inner sleeve housing the CD; I've checked all the releases I have and they're all like this! So I don't think there are doubts left now about it being the *new* logo of a brand created by the company who overtook the old Vinyl Magic; it's just imo a bad looking and unpersuasive logo but that's another story!
  • Piotrlerouge over 3 years ago

    Piotrlerouge
    + I could not find a single release listing the Vinyl Magic's "New Progressive" series

    aah I found them now! I don't know why the first search didn't give any results but that's after all the famous Discogs search engine ...
  • stevefreeman over 3 years ago

    Piotrlerouge
    If I haven't misunderstood you,

    You have misunderstood me, I was meaning BTF without any other text as given here: http://cdn.discogs.com/ju8U26x72pzFNTWhVXjf7OfL5eY=/fit-in/600x517/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(96)/discogs-images/R-6423738-1418858494-3720.jpeg.jpg (no srl or it extensions).
  • jweijde over 3 years ago

    Piotrlerouge
    + from 2015 on, the new AMS label will be listed as AMS Records. Releases prior to 2015 are listed under AMS (3); the label started in 2006; the choice of this label will probably always exclude the simultaneous presence of BTF as label; in case of missing AMS logo, the presence of a catalog number with suffix AMS, followed by a number, should be sufficient a proof to choose this label


    I have serious doubts about this. We shouldn't be picking labels based on catalog numer formats alone. Labels are branding so if a logo is present, it can be entered as label.
  • ultimathulerecords over 3 years ago

    Piotrlerouge
    just as easily be on a label called "Italian Progressive Rock" based on the obi-strip back panel


    I say that because this panel is where we usually find the Vinyl Magic or AMS logos.
    I'm not saying it is, but it could be interpreted so.

    Piotrlerouge
    + releases not showing btf.it but presenting a catalog number strating with VM and followed by a number will be listed under Vinyl Magic, even if the label's logo is lacking (they have to be placed somewhere!).


    Not sure about that (I concur with jweijde), I don't think we can assume Vinyl Magic just based on the continued use/re-use of the VM numbering. I will continue to only add Vinyl Magic (or variants) exactly as they appear only when they say so on the release.

  • ultimathulerecords over 3 years ago

    Piotrlerouge
    Alan, if you own any papersleeve of the VM remastered series, notice that btf.it IS printed in huge letters


    I previously answered and corrected my comment on this above

    ultimathulerecords
    btf.it established as a label here: Metamorfosi - …E Fu Il Sesto Giorno


  • Piotrlerouge over 3 years ago

    jweijde
    We shouldn't be picking labels based on catalog numer formats alone. Labels are branding so if a logo is present, it can be entered as label.

    1. many new AMS releases (2015) do not feature the new AMS logo (as shown on the profile) but clearly feature AMS Records, not only as text but with characters presenting a layout. See for ex. Il Mio Nome E' Nessuno (Colonna Sonora Originale) back cover scan. And by the way, there were already 5 AMS Records listed at Discogs so I had to correct this one to AMS Records (6).
    2. (question also to Alan's comment) What do you in the case where releases have no logo, no text printed and the only proof you have IS the catalog number?
  • ultimathulerecords over 3 years ago

    Piotrlerouge
    (question also to Alan's comment) What do you in the case where releases have no logo, no text printed and the only proof you have IS the catalog number?


    Let me know when you come across such a release (will be essential that it has all appropriate images so we can decide)
  • ultimathulerecords over 3 years ago

    Piotrlerouge
    (question also to Alan's comment) What do you in the case where releases have no logo, no text printed and the only proof you have IS the catalog number?


    Let me know when you come across such a release (will be essential that it has all appropriate images so we can decide)
  • stevefreeman over 3 years ago

    ultimathulerecords
    Let me know when you come across such a release (will be essential that it has all appropriate images so we can decide)

    Calliope (4) - Citta' Di Frontiera doesn't seem to have any label logos (unless they are on the CD spines). But as this is a Reissue of Citta' Di Frontiera it's obviously what the label should be.
  • Piotrlerouge over 3 years ago

    ultimathulerecords
    Let me know when you come across such a release

    The following release was listed (and correctly imo) on basis alone of the catalog number: Live In Bloom ✩ Progvention Nov. 6th 2010; I have just added some scans (back cover + disc), there is nothing to see in the booklet and you can clearly see my previous point; I have no time to review all releases I have at hand but can ensure you that there are several other similar cases where the catalog number (and sane reasoning) is your only rescue when you have to decide what the label is. Add to it that the present release is packed in the usual btf.it cardboard sleeve, which means that btf.it would probably have to be added too?
    I also found out that AMS records has already been used for relatively *old* releases like this one (again I've just added scans so you could see it): Beyond The Life (Oltre La Vita)
  • Piotrlerouge over 3 years ago

    ladrodipolli
    Also in release i have update i don't have see never this Vinyl Magic 2000 logo if i'm right

    Here's one example: Riflessioni: Idea D'Infinito ---> scans
  • ultimathulerecords over 3 years ago

    Piotrlerouge
    ladrodipolli
    Also in release i have update i don't have see never this Vinyl Magic 2000 logo if i'm right

    Here's one example: Riflessioni: Idea D'Infinito ---> scans


    VM 2000 logo, as I suggested for correct label name
  • Piotrlerouge over 3 years ago

    ultimathulerecords
    VM 2000 logo, as I suggested for correct label name

    Not too late to change it now, since we're working on so much else related to those labels; I think the previous debate died without any fix decision or finalization; one user agreed to VM 2000; I'm in too, that's what the logo shows.
  • ladrodipolli over 3 years ago

    ultimathulerecords
    Also in release i have update i don't have see never this Vinyl Magic 2000 logo if i'm right


    Me i'm interested only on vinyl, and i have update only vinyls release i think...
  • Piotrlerouge over 3 years ago

  • ultimathulerecords over 3 years ago

    More correct:

    When Vinyl Magic ceased as the original partnership in 1998, the label was relaunched as VM 2000, with its stock and licenses taken over by BTF srl, who later also set up a new label, btf.it.
  • stevefreeman over 3 years ago

    ultimathulerecords
    When Vinyl Magic ceased as the original partnership in 1998, the label was relaunched as VM 2000, with its stock and licenses taken over by BTF srl, who later also set up a new label, btf.it.

    I agree with above.
  • Piotrlerouge over 3 years ago

    ultimathulerecords
    the label was relaunched as VM 2000, with its stock and licenses taken over by BTF srl,

    As long as we haven't (or have we?) agreed on the change to VM 2000, we need to have a more careful wording. What about: When Vinyl Magic ceased as the original partnership in 1998, a last attempt was made with the creation of Vinyl Magic 2000 Records, a division of BTF srl who gradually overtook both label's stock and licenses and later set up a new label, btf.it.

    Notes:
    1. Matthias Scheller estimates the end of Vinyl Magic to 2001, not 1998. The chronology is still visible in the very first message of this thread. And that's why I suggested "gradually", as the change(s) seems to have been a running process.
    2. "a division of BTF srl" is what appears printed on all references of (currently) Vinyl Magic 2000 Records
  • Piotrlerouge over 3 years ago

    Picchio Dal Pozzo has a release year of 1999 and the scans clearly show the Vinyl Magic logo so ... 1998 is definitely not correct!
  • Piotrlerouge over 3 years ago

    http://www.italianprog.com/index.htm - one of the most reliable sources for Italian prog - even states its release to 2001, seriously contradicting the Discogs listing ...
  • ultimathulerecords over 3 years ago

    We are planning on changing to VM 2000 aren't we?

    I thought I drew everyone's attention to this revitalised thread...
    http://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/396206?page=1#3843627
  • stevefreeman over 3 years ago

    Piotrlerouge > Please be more careful when you leave messages on submissions. If you look at Procession - Frontiera you will see that most of your comments weren't correct.
  • Piotrlerouge over 3 years ago

    stevefreeman
    If you look at Procession - Frontiera you will see that most of your comments weren't correct.

    The comments weren't addressed to you, Steve! I think it's a bad reflex that people take it for themselves if they are the last in the chain, as the comments obviously address the person who wrote the points questioned!
    Thus said, yes, the comments were wrong and were due to the fact that this release isn't mentioned in Augusto Croce's book / web site, which surprises me, as he is very updated! Having worked nearly the whole afternoon on correcting wrong labels (connected to this debate), I unfortunately put both things together and had a strong suspicion of another wrong listing.
  • ultimathulerecords over 3 years ago

    Piotrlerouge
    Matthias Scheller estimates the end of Vinyl Magic to 2001


    Well, he's wrong. Vinyl Magic ceased trading at Via Trabaldi Milano 1998. I remember receiving the notification that they'd ceased trading with information as to what we should do if we had any unpaid accounts. Later that year they resurfaced with VM 2000 and announcing distribution via BTF srl

    The last original Vinyl Magic release was VM 063 Claudio Rocchi ‎– Sulla Soglia in 1998.
    Claudio Rocchi - Sulla Soglia

    The first two VM 2000 releases were announced late in 1998, which then came out in early 1999
    Henry Wolff And Nancy Hennings* With Drew Gladstone - Tibetan Bells and Battiato* - Foetus

    Original Vinyl Magic = VM 0?? catalogue number
    VM 2000 label = VM CD 0?? catalogue number

    So, any VM CD 0?? catalogue 001 to 063 is a reissue
  • stevefreeman over 3 years ago

    ultimathulerecords
    Original Vinyl Magic = VM 0?? catalogue number
    VM 2000 label = VM CD 0?? catalogue number

    Looks correct to me.
  • Piotrlerouge over 3 years ago

    ultimathulerecords
    So, any VM CD 0?? catalogue 001 to 063 is a reissue

    Are you just systematically arguing per principle or did you take a look at the disc scan of Picchio Dal Pozzo and the back cover as well? Did you see the catalog number was 067? Is it for you between 001 and 063? Have you ever seen a Vinyl Magic 2000 Records release not bearing its own logo or name? For not saying the usual coloured disc layout (the planet-shaped one) as for ex. here: Quella Vecchia Locanda ? Do you dare say that you don't see Vinyl Magic all over the place and nothing else? If your answer is "yes", then there is something real wrong and I'd better stop working on all this straight, that would become meaningless!
  • Piotrlerouge over 3 years ago

    Anyone having a copy of "Italian Prog The Comprehensive Guide to Italian Progressive Music 1967/1979" would read on page 399: Picchio dal Pozzo Vinyl Magic (VM 067) 2001 reissue of 1976 album
    also readable at http://www.italianprog.com/index.htm (select artists and thereafter Picchio ....)
    The only discording point is that it writes (VM 067) instead of the VM CD 067 seen on the scan. But it doesn't matter, the point is that this release isn't conform on any aspect to the VM 2000 standard / layout / characteristics that you will find on any other! I can't tell you why, I'm just sticking to what I see and what I see should be the basis!
  • ultimathulerecords over 3 years ago

    Piotrlerouge
    Picchio Dal Pozzo has a release year of 1999 and the scans clearly show the Vinyl Magic logo so ... 1998 is definitely not correct!


    Seems that release was pressed early before they were forced to cease using the Vinyl Magic brand. And, based on the tray inlay image this artwork was prepared when BTF had just started. Not all releases on a label are prepared in strict order of catalogue numbers you know.

    It is a bit of an anomaly though this being on Vinyl Magic. The first record I have of VM CD 067 being announced as an upcoming release is in late 2000, and we first ordered copies 17 January 2001.
    I seemed to recall it being on VM 2000 (although I can no longer confirm, as I have the r3263515 Crime CD) and sold my stock of that 10+ years ago and cannot find any evidence of this issue anywhere.

    The images on Discogs seem to be from a cover hosting site and mix two different issues. So could even be a fake or pirate.

  • Piotrlerouge over 3 years ago

    ultimathulerecords
    It is a bit of an anomaly though this being on Vinyl Magic. The first record I have of VM CD 067 being announced as an upcoming release is in late 2000, and we first ordered copies 17 January 2001.

    If you have a proof of this (not only memory of), that would first of all unvalidate the release year of the Discogs listing, since the OP wrote 1999!
    As to where it belongs, I've sent a mail to Maurizio Vimercati (BTF) and he already wrote that he will look in their archives and contact me next week. I hope he will!
  • ultimathulerecords over 3 years ago

    I think that Picchio CD image is a fake.
    Compare the better image of it that I found and just added...
    http://cdn.discogs.com/DkYxDQs8nkgp3O3-f3ej2npAPts=/fit-in/600x597/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(96)/discogs-images/R-1790738-1433012572-1910.jpeg.jpg
    with this...
    http://cdn.discogs.com/vEZVSRxb1Y68-E_YXds9GeCss1k=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(96)/discogs-images/R-2061764-1432370575-1396.jpeg.jpg

    On the Picchio VM 067 image you will see that the address arc on the right is missing, in Copyright arc g is missing from broadcasting, no "Productions" above the Vinyl Magic logo, The track typeface (without times) is also not correct, Compact Disc Digital Audio Logo & MADE IN ITALY is in a cut box not on red, also SIAE (always S.I.A.E. on all other releases) and even odder ℗ 1999 VM / BTF (such a reference is not on any other release that I can find)

    (BTW - that Picchio disc image was criisp and sharp before uploading to Discogs. Seems they've still not cured the block red blurring on Discogs, but you can read it - just)
  • ultimathulerecords over 3 years ago

    Piotrlerouge
    If you have a proof of this (not only memory of),


    I kept a lot of things, but never thought to keep new release faxes or brochures, else we'd have several rooms full of boxes. I have my email order from 17/1/2001, and also the catalogue of what was available in December 2000...

    VM 019 Infinity Planetarium
    VM 022 Leprino Franco Integrati… disintegrati
    VM 020 Nova Blink
    VM 041 Pholas Dactylus Concerto delle menti
    VM 031 Teoremi same
    8016158100129 TRI 1001 Dedalus same + Materiale per tre esecutori… 2 albums >> one disc !
    8016158100426 TRI 1004 Semiramis Dedicato A Frazz new reprint
    8016158100525 TRI 1005 Biglietto per l'Inferno same remastered
    8016158100624 TRI 1006 Opus Avantra same / Donella Del Monaco (aka Introspezione)
    8016158110128 VM 001 Panna Fredda Uno w/ 2 bonus tracks
    8016158110227 VM 002 Metamorfosi Inferno new reprint
    8016158111026 VM 010 Zauber Il sogno new reprint +/ bonus
    8016158111125 VM 011 Errata Corrige Siegfried il drago e altre storie
    8016158113624 VM 036 Procession Frontiera new reprint
    8016158113723 VM 037 Osage Tribe Arrowhead w/ 2 bonus tracks
    8016158113921 VM 039 Celeste Principe di un giorno
    8016158114027 VM 040 Corte dei Miracoli same
    8016158115024 VM 050 Capsicum Red Appunti per un'idea fissa w/ 2 bonus tracks
    8016158115123 VM 051 Alphataurus same digipack
    8016158115420 VM 054 Quella Vecchia Locanda same (remastered ed.) new reprint
    8016158116021 VM 060 New Trolls Atomic system
    8016158116120 VM 061 New Trolls Tempi dispari live 1974
    8016158116427 VM 064 Wolff / Hennings Tibetan bells tibetan zen music
    8016158116526 VM 065 Battiato Franco Foetus (engl. lyrics) debut album !
    8016158116724 VM 067 Picchio dal Pozzo same
    8016158116823 VM 068 New Trolls Live NT live 1976
    8016158116922 VM 069 Rovescio della Medaglia Vitae 1993
    8016158117127 VM 071 Sorrenti Alan Aria with lyrics
    8016158117226 VM 072 Uovo di Colombo same
    8016158117325 VM 073 Saint Just La casa del lago with lyrics
    8016158117424 VM 074 Troubaires de Coumboscuro A toun souléi (w/ Mussida, De Andrè, Yacoub) italian-french folk-prog
    out soon TRI 1002 Trip Time of change new reprint out soon
  • Piotrlerouge over 3 years ago

    ultimathulerecords
    I think that Picchio CD image is a fake.

    You are right! And another weird detail is that on the Picchio image, the red block goes through the inner circle, which is very uncommon! I've also compared it with my copy of Nova's "Blink" (VM 020), the scans of Generazioni (Storia Di Sempre), I Teoremi, Alpha Ralpha Boulevard, which all look exactly like yours (Edgar Poe) and not like Piccchio's. Damn! What can be the interest of making a fake like this?
  • ultimathulerecords over 3 years ago

    I had seen another such image here where the red block goes through similar to this...
    http://cdn.discogs.com/mM_bAkb_S3PWCXpuMotL5UTcwTw=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(96)/discogs-images/R-1437775-1416311184-7398.jpeg.jpg

    I think this image could also be a fake, although the actual release in this case does exist.
    The source for this image seems to be a Russian torrent site.
    I would guess that in both cases these images may be of Russian bootlegs.

    Here is a genuine Atomic System disc...
    http://cdn.discogs.com/DK2EAbAo20cu4f5T0wt3UXHS0c0=/fit-in/600x592/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(96)/discogs-images/R-1342035-1306541317.jpeg.jpg

    Both these New Trolls were issued at the same time.
  • ultimathulerecords over 3 years ago

    Piotrlerouge
    Are you just systematically arguing per principle or did you take a look at the disc scan of Picchio Dal Pozzo and the back cover as well? Did you see the catalog number was 067?


    I'm arguing from experience and knowledge of having all these different issues when they were released, and those that I have in my collection. Based on all that this apparent reissue on Discogs just doesn't make sense.

    In that Vinyl Magic / BTR stock list, it would seem apparent that there was a big gap between the first two VM 2000 releases (both issued early 1999)...
    8016158116427 VM 064 Wolff / Hennings Tibetan bells tibetan zen music
    8016158116526 VM 065 Battiato Franco Foetus (engl. lyrics) debut album !

    and AFIAK these that followed late in 2000...
    8016158116724 VM 067 Picchio dal Pozzo same
    8016158116823 VM 068 New Trolls Live NT live 1976
    8016158116922 VM 069 Rovescio della Medaglia Vitae 1993
    8016158117127 VM 071 Sorrenti Alan Aria with lyrics
    8016158117226 VM 072 Uovo di Colombo same
    8016158117325 VM 073 Saint Just La casa del lago with lyrics
    8016158117424 VM 074 Troubaires de Coumboscuro A toun souléi

    Although, that aside, I've just found this issue of New Trolls L.I.V.E.N.T. which is similar and also says it is it is on Vinyl Magic from 1999... http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Trolls-L-I-V-E-N-T-Italian-Prog-CD-Live-Vinyl-Magic-TOP-Zustand-/181715144316?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_77&hash=item2a4f110e7c

    A shame it's not possible to find if that SIAE sticker is genuine as the online database doesn't seem to go back that far yet
  • ultimathulerecords over 3 years ago

    A reword, in case my dates may be slightly off...

    When Vinyl Magic ceased as the original partnership in 1998, the label was relaunched as VM 2000 sometime during 1999, with its stock and licenses taken over by BTF srl, who later also set up a new label, btf.it.
  • Piotrlerouge over 3 years ago

    1. The formulation isn't good enough because it gives the impression that you are saying BTF only overtakes the VM 2000 stock and license; they overtook the whole stock - Vinyl Magic included - and kept the old catalog numbering going on the same way as before.
    2. I don't think the label was relaunched, it was a last attempt to keep it alive, a side project going on alongside the other *agonizing* label.
    3. I wait to hear what Maurizio says and will hopefully make the change next week
    4. In the mean time, if you now have enough support to change Vinyl Magic 2000 Records to VM 2000, that would also allow us to correct this in the text.
  • ultimathulerecords over 3 years ago

    A reword, again, better adapted from your text, which I'll add to VM 2000...

    When Vinyl Magic ceased as the original partnership in 1998, the label was relaunched as VM 2000 sometime during 1999. At this time all Vinyl Magic brands, stock and licenses taken over by BTF srl, who later also set up the new label btf.it.
  • Piotrlerouge over 3 years ago

    ultimathulerecords
    and AFIAK these that followed late in 2000...
    8016158116724 VM 067 Picchio dal Pozzo same

    ultimathulerecords
    Original Vinyl Magic = VM 0?? catalogue number
    VM 2000 label = VM CD 0?? catalogue number

    The quotes are yours, so, VM 067 IS a Vinyl Magic release .... contrary to what you said before .... --->

    ultimathulerecords
    The last original Vinyl Magic release was VM 063 Claudio Rocchi ‎– Sulla Soglia in 1998.
    Claudio Rocchi - Sulla Soglia

    or ...?
  • ultimathulerecords over 3 years ago

    Piotrlerouge
    I don't think the label was relaunched


    Was relaunched, with lots of promotion - brochures, stickers, posters, etc.
    I don't have any of those any more though.
  • Piotrlerouge over 3 years ago

    There is a big difference between launching a new brand (VM2000) and relaunching the older label (Vinyl Magic); I guess the promotion (brochures, stickers, posters) you're talking about was aimed at the new label, also giving the opportunity of reminding people of the rest of the catalog but the catalog wasn't deleted, it was still in function. So revitalizing, refreshing, promoting, sparking life, yes .... relaunching means to me reactivating something that was stopped, dropped, set in stand-by or deleted.
  • ultimathulerecords over 3 years ago

    word choice, "rebranded" then.

    Profile established via Procession Frontier VM 2000 issue.
    VM 2000
    http://www.discogs.com/label/851646-VM-2000
  • ultimathulerecords over 3 years ago

    Tons of huge mistakes throughout the listings on Discogs.
    I've just put up a merge on huge mess here http://www.discogs.com/history?release=3168055#latest
  • Piotrlerouge over 3 years ago

    Some more precisions to take into account regarding the label AMS (3) and its change of name newly; mail sent to Matthias Scheller with my questions and his answers:

    1. In the case of AMS papersleeves, I can see that all papersleeves bear the same btf.it logo (which we established as the currrent wording for the label) on the cardboard innersleeve, exactly in the same way as with the VM Remaster Series. When we list such a release, are we talking of a collaborative work where both AMS and btf.it should be listed as label? Or is the label AMS only?

    The label is AMS only, they simply give me the innsersleeves for free and get some promo for their website

    2. I can also see from your new web site that the label AMS has been changed to AMS Records and some releases already back to 2011 bear this wording (for ex. Robert Genco). Do you have a precise year for the change and what was the main reason for the change? Artistic or just administrative? This can help us adding the right infos on the label's profile.

    It is an artistic change and starts officially from april 2015

    With the consequences for us at Discogs:

    1. do we add or not btf.it if it is printed somewhere (spine, OBI, back tray, etc...) on a AMS release?

    2. Since the label owner says the official change is April 2015 but a few releases before this date already show AMS Records (6) printed:
    2 a) Do we list them AMS (3) or do we stick to what's printed?
    2 b) inversely, same question for post April 2015 releases that still may show AMS (3) printed instead of the other

    Thanks for the good work so far, we're improving fast and as Alan pointed:

    ultimathulerecords
    Tons of huge mistakes throughout the listings on Discogs.

  • Piotrlerouge over 3 years ago

    Regarding VM 067, here's Maurizio's answer: Ciao Pierre, first of all the title is out of stock , deleted no more available. i've found into our archive a copy of it: VMCD 067 Picchio dal Pozzo - same - barcode 8016158116724 printed on 1999 by Vinyl Magic distributed by BTF jewelcase
    This should close the debate but .... let's keep in mind that no releases should have Vinyl Magic as label from 2000 on but btf.it instead.
    Still waiting for your comments on my previous just above, concerning AMS, try to find time for this so we can have all guidelines fixed, thanks.
  • ultimathulerecords over 3 years ago

    ultimathulerecords edited over 3 years ago
    So those two releases with Vinyl Magic logos and VM 2000 style packaging must have been prepared before the first two VM 2000 releases, which is odd but not abnormal. Maybe those uncertainties with the company at the time explain why those discs look weird compared to other Vinyl Magic releases shortly before that? My revised wording in the VM 2000 profile allows for this, whatever the actual case may be.

    So, as far as we know all VM releases between 2000 and 2005 are VM 2000.

    Then the Vinyl Magic branding came back into use on many AMS (3) releases circa 2006 to Feb 2010 at least, as per these examples...
    http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=1810012
    http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=5003304

    After that (during 2010?) VM catalogue releases appeared again, but now with VM 2000 style disc labels but no logo except for the btf.it logo. Most of these are currently entered on Discogs as Vinyl Magic due to the catalogue number (despite the absence of their logo), and I guess should continue to be listed so (a known label identified by its catalogue number, even in the absence of a logo, is allowed on Discogs), but with btf.it also as a label where it appears.

    A lot of these later releases I've not yet had, and many have little in the way of images yet on Discogs. But I'll try to fill in the gaps and info that I can.
  • Piotrlerouge over 3 years ago

    ultimathulerecords
    So, as far as we know all VM releases between 2000 and 2005 are VM 2000.

    Already in 2003, the remastered papersleeves bear the btf.it on the OBI, alongside the VM 2000 logo on the disc. I'll keep adding the label on the ones I have.
  • ultimathulerecords over 3 years ago

    I was adding barcodes to some LP reissues, but then realised these barcodes were only on stickers - right?
    Think I'll wait on those before adding more.
  • Piotrlerouge over 3 years ago

    ultimathulerecords
    I was adding barcodes to some LP reissues, but then realised these barcodes were only on stickers - right?

    Can you list a few examples? I will look at it if I have them in stock.
  • Piotrlerouge over 3 years ago

    I just came by your recent edit of UT and can confirm that this release normally comes without a barcode, therefore confirming your comment about barcode on sticker (probably fixed by a distributor). Same with Tic & Tac. I receive those directly from the label (via BTF) and they don't have barcodes.

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