• pyenapple over 6 years ago

    pyenapple edited over 6 years ago
    From the mouth of the one most often tagged with the racist term "blue eyed soul", Daryl Hall:
    http://somethingelsereviews.com/2015/05/10/hall-and-oates-blue-eyed-soul-daryl-hall/

    “I fucking hate it; it’s a racist term,” Hall tells VH1. “It assumes I’m coming from the outside. There’s always been that thing in America, where if you’re a white guy and you’re singing or playing in a black idiom, it’s like: ‘Why is he doing that? Is he from the outside, looking in? Is he copying? What’s the point of it?’ C’mon, it’s music! It’s music.”

    The term "blue eyed soul" itself implies that "soul" music is, at its core, racially defined, and that a distinction was necessary to make certain that listening audiences knew that these performers were white. I think it's time we move beyond this and drop the term "blue eyed soul" as an active descriptor. Discogs would benefit from making a positive effort to remove use of the term on the site in artist profiles and the like. We ought to always err on the side of inclusion.
  • Jarren over 6 years ago

    Popcorn acquired. See y'all in 3 pages.
  • brandon_end over 6 years ago

    It's not a Discogs "style", so the only place the term might appear is in profile descriptions. It looks like a pretty small list if you want to edit them.

    http://www.discogs.com/search/?q=%22blue+eyed+soul%22&type=artist
  • pyenapple over 6 years ago

    brandon_end
    It's not a Discogs "style", so the only place the term might appear is in profile descriptions. It looks like a pretty small list if you want to edit them.


    I noticed this myself and was thinking about it—so I posted here. I really do think it would be a good step for Discogs to just remove the term from the site. But I'm hoping to take the temperature of the water here before leaping in.
  • mcr1 over 6 years ago

    Sadly the term comes from the world's view of which ethnic group originated the soul and funk genres. To quote from Wikipedia who are quoted on this site under Funk / Soul genre description "a music genre that originated in the mid to late 1960s when African-American musicians created a rhythmic, danceable new form of music".
    Blue-eyed Gospel?
    So Daryl Hall didn't like it, but it's out there.
  • UndergroundUnited.de over 6 years ago

    As wikipedia has been mentioned, one should consider these discussions also, some similar like the one here (or what it's to become probably).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3ABlue-eyed_soul#there_is_nothing_wrong_with_this_article
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3ABlue-eyed_soul#First_use_of_term_blue-eyed_soul.3F
  • pyenapple over 6 years ago

    UndergroundUnited.de
    As wikipedia has been mentioned, one should consider these discussions also, some similar like the one here (or what it's to become probably).


    Those aren't even really discussions at all. That first link says "people who use the "racism" argument, need to read the article thoroughly rather than getting defensive. its not worth wasting energy over a non-existent problem." — how is this even the beginning of an argument? This isn't logic, it's tail-chasing.
  • pyenapple over 6 years ago

    mcr1
    Sadly the term comes from the world's view of which ethnic group originated the soul and funk genres.


    Origination is far from definition. Origination is talking about derivation, history. That is necessary. However, you don't define a musical style by the color of the performer.
  • UndergroundUnited.de over 6 years ago

    Have a look again, and you'll find some articles with comments from various users, interacting with each other, responding and reacting on others peoples posts. If that's not kinda discussion, then what it is?
    Not on all posts obviously, but some are actually interesting. And you won't have figured all these within your 3 minutes of responding.

    Anyway, I don't think it should be removed. This is a database, the term exists and is used, not as a genre (as it is not) but on profiles, and we catalogue this.
  • mcr1 over 6 years ago

    All I'm saying is that the term is out there, discogs doesn't have it as a style. It's only on artist profiles, address those if you wish (make sure it doesn't appear on the DH profile!) but I don't think discogs or anyone else can remove all reference to the term. Now if I really wanted to put the cat amongst the pigeons I'd ask if the term is actually racist, but I'm not as I don't think it's really an issue.
  • pyenapple over 6 years ago

    UndergroundUnited.de
    Have a look again, and you'll find some articles with comments from various users, interacting with each other, responding and reacting on others peoples posts. If that's not kinda discussion, then what it is?
    Not on all posts obviously, but some are actually interesting. And you won't have figured all these within your 3 minutes of responding.


    I actually read that page two hours ago, but thanks for making assumptions about me. And no, there's no real discussion of race at all there.
  • massenmedium over 6 years ago

    "Racist" against white people, in America? Daryl Hall really should know better if that's what he said.
  • pyenapple over 6 years ago

    massenmedium
    "Racist" against white people, in America? Daryl Hall really should know better if that's what he said.


    It's racist against all people, starting with black people. Think about it.
  • UndergroundUnited.de over 6 years ago

    pyenapple
    I actually read that page two hours ago, but thanks for making assumptions about me. And no, there's no real discussion of race at all there.


    Oh, of course you did.

    Apart from arguments given on the above..what, if artists consider their music as 'Blue Eyed Soul' themselves?
  • mcr1 over 6 years ago

    Just been thinking - if you're an artist and you're described as making "blue-eyed soul" it's nowhere near racism as actually the reviewer/commenter really means you're no good, or can't last, at making genuine soul or funk.
  • Eviltoastman over 6 years ago

    Eviltoastman edited over 6 years ago
    Hall's a moron.

    pyenapple
    It's racist against all people, starting with black people. Think about it.

    Do people have hate against people when they use the term? The term "racist" gets thrown about way too often. Does the use of the term stop people finding work, from buying homes, from usig public services? Does it mean that a group is somehow castigated or treated like second class citizens of even as if they are animals? Are they denied justice? Are they harangued, beaten or murdered because they have blue eyes? Hall's comments are sickening, bringing an important issue and comparing a genre to it. The man needs an absolute shoeing. The thread is an insult to anyone who has been a victim of genuine racism.
  • pyenapple over 6 years ago

    UndergroundUnited.de
    Oh, of course you did.


    Sarcasm? Let's have a proper discussion and not resort to being disrespectful, please. Take it elsewhere if you can't be a decent human being. I actually did look at that page earlier. When I removed Daryl Hall from the list of blue eyed soul singers on Wikipedia. Since he very clearly states he is emphatically not that.

    If artists consider their own music "blue eyed soul" and actively call it that, then they're participating in, at the very least, casual racism and microagression, essentially. We don't have to use that term. They can put it on their own website to show the world who they are.
  • pyenapple over 6 years ago

    mcr1
    Just been thinking - if you're an artist and you're described as making "blue-eyed soul" it's nowhere near racism as actually the reviewer/commenter really means you're no good, or can't last, at making genuine soul or funk.


    I have never ever seen a reviewer use the term like this, to mean "you're no good". It pretty much has always meant just this: a white performer doing soul music. Like it needs to be distinguished from regular soul music because that would be black.
  • pyenapple over 6 years ago

    Eviltoastman
    Hall's a moron.


    I'm more than a bit surprised at you.
  • massenmedium over 6 years ago

    There might be objections to the term, but implying that Soul is music of black origin is obviously not racist. Acknowledging colour isn't racist in itself.

    However, calling for the erasures of colour and acknowledgment of origin in the name of "inclusion" is the kind of thing that makes sense to people who are not subject to actual racism. Think about it.
  • pyenapple over 6 years ago

    massenmedium
    implying that Soul is music of black origin is obviously not racist.


    Nobody is saying that. Or, at least, I'm not. Have you read everything I've said above? I clearly stated the origin of the type of music is not at issue here, at all. Facts are facts, origins are origins. That's not being disputed. However, classifying artists as belonging to different music styles by race? Appalling.
  • Eviltoastman over 6 years ago

    Eviltoastman edited over 6 years ago
    pyenapple
    I'm more than a bit surprised at you.

    The man conflates this with genuine suffering? Considering what my Grandfather endured and his family before him, I'm more than a little bit mad by this absolute joke of a thread. When hundreds of blue eyed soul singers are murdered because of their ethnicity, then we can talk about racism. Your comments here and this thread are an insult.

    massenmedium
    There might be objections to the term, but implying that Soul is music of black origin is obviously not racist. Acknowledging colour isn't racist in itself.

    Exactly. The term "blue eyed soul" was coined to accentuate the seemingly inauthentic nature of the genre and was used alongside "plastic soul" for the same reason. Hall is a moron and people should know better.

    It is not racist to acknowledge colour or race. Its when negative intent and outcomes arrive as a result of these acknowledgements.
  • pyenapple over 6 years ago

    Eviltoastman
    Do people have hate against people when they use the term? The term "racist" gets thrown about way too often. Does the use of the term stop people finding work, from buying homes, from usig public services? Does it mean that a group is somehow castigated or treated like second class citizens of even as if they are animals? Are they denied justice? Are they harangued, beaten or murdered because they have blue eyes? Hall's comments are sickening, bringing an important issue and comparing a genre to it. The man needs an absolute shoeing. The thread is an insult to anyone who has been a victim of genuine racism.


    I think you've maybe never heard of microaggression. And don't tell me starting an open discussion about racism is "an insult". Please. Like actual hate has to be involved for something to be racist. Wherever did you get that definition of racism? Casual racism is prevalent, insidious.
  • _jules over 6 years ago

    I'm not even sure why one would *discuss* this here where the blue eyed soul tag never was added and/or considered.

    Hurray for Discogs, amaright.
  • mcr1 over 6 years ago

    Eviltoastman
    I'm more than a little bit mad by this absolute joke of a thread. When hundreds of blue eyed soul singers are murdered because of their ethnicity, then we can talk about racism. Your comments here and this thread are an insult.

    +1
    I can't take this seriously. If it continues I'll just dip in every now and again with a bit of Devil's Advocate stuff about blue eyed soul artists being no good (in the long term, after their few hits) at soul.
  • pyenapple over 6 years ago

    Eviltoastman
    Your comments here and this thread are an insult.


    I can't believe how totally disrespectful you are. I really expected better.
  • mcr1 over 6 years ago

    _jules
    I'm not even sure why one would *discuss* this here where the blue eyed soul tag never was added and/or considered.

    Hurray for Discogs, amaright.


    Damn right.

  • pyenapple over 6 years ago

    Eviltoastman
    Asinine.


    Oh, I see you edited it. Thanks. Way better.
  • pyenapple over 6 years ago

    mcr1
    I'm not even sure why one would *discuss* this here where the blue eyed soul tag never was added and/or considered.


    Because it's present in many profiles. I know it's not a style. I just think it should be ditched. There shouldn't be "white soul" and "black soul".
  • massenmedium over 6 years ago

    Pyenapple - I was trying to understand how you could consider it racist towards black people. No, implicitly acknowledging black origin is not racist. Implying non black artists are white (although there are also black artists who arguably make music in this style), is not racist.

    Let's be clear, that you can talk about "inclusion" (i.e. erasure of origin), or acknowledgment of colour in this way is something that comes from being in a racist culture. Not that you are deliberately racist, but that you can even say that and not see a problem.
  • jvaahtera over 6 years ago

    In a blindfold test I've categorized:

    Peggy Scott & Jo Jo Benson as white artists doing a good imitation of 60's soul. Since then I've called them the best all-black "blue eyed soul" group :-))
    Lenny Kravitz, definitely "white rock", no doubt
    Boz Scaggs classic "black disco soul"

    And nowadays it's almost impossible to guess the skin colour of the vocalists almost in any genre, since there's no typical "ethnic" production anymore.
  • Mr.Mystery over 6 years ago

    Oh, I should had checked your nationality before responding.

    This is not worth the hassle. I'm putting you on ignore too.
  • mrformic over 6 years ago

    If a soul has blue eyes, it has blue eyes.
  • brandon_end over 6 years ago

    I just hope there's a place in this world for the term "googly-eyed soul" that no one will find too problematic.
  • Tokeowave over 6 years ago

    This reminds me of the time when a song came on the radio at an office job I had and I recognized it but never knew the artist. The accountant who happened to be black was humming along to the song so I asked her who made the song. She said, "Average White Band". LOL Needless to say I did a double take and was like 'What? For real? There's a band by that name?".
  • MJG196 over 6 years ago

    This thread just made my, yes it made my brown eyes blue!
  • infamous31 over 6 years ago

    Blue-Eyed Soul is a dated and obsolete term at this point. It was widely used in the 1970s and 1980s, but I don't think it's used commonly now among music folks. For example, I never read articles calling Adele and/or Sam Smith "blue-eyed soul" singers. (Whether they qualify as soul or are just generic pop balladry is a different debate.)

    Plus, Blue-Eyed Soul is not listed as a Style on Discogs. And it's fairly easy to remove the term from artist profiles if you have the bandwidth to spare/hours to waste.

    So I assume this falls under the "useless but comment-goading thread" category?
  • jvaahtera over 6 years ago

    infamous31
    Blue-Eyed Soul is a dated and obsolete term at this point. It was widely used in the 1970s and 1980s, but I don't think it's used commonly now among music folks.


    Exactly. And I don't know what harm there's to use it in historical context if someone's music was marketed as such way back when. Especially if "scare quotes" are being used and it's not a style definition in discogs.

    Theoretically that would be have been interesting though, since I have thought some black groups belong to "Blue-Eyed Soul" category (if there was one), like The Friends Of Distinction or Peggy Scott & Jo Jo Benson.
    That already tells the term "blue eyed soul" is very silly indeed.
  • boris_the_human over 6 years ago

  • Mr.Mystery over 6 years ago

    This should be a term limited exclusively to Frank Sinatra.
  • TopCats45s over 6 years ago

    THIS: "Blue-Eyed Soul is a dated and obsolete term at this point ...... I don't think it's used commonly now among music folks." However, Historical comments should not be removed. The soul groups (and doo wop) of the 50's & 60's WERE imitated by white folks trying to cash in on the popularity. And us white folk DID laugh at the white artists attempts. This is history - do not erase. Back in the 50's and 60's it WAS racially defined. NOT DEROGATORY- RESPECTFULLY. Point. Blank. Period.

    Yeah, specially Ole Blue Eyes :) I bet that's where the term came from :)
  • loukash over 6 years ago

  • truedream over 6 years ago

  • JT_X over 6 years ago

    Artists don't get to choose the names of their genres.

    pyenapple
    I think you've maybe never heard of microaggression.

    The latest way to get people to classify themselves as victims, you mean?
  • djmushroom over 6 years ago

    djmushroom edited over 6 years ago
    retroactive censorship generally isn't very helpful. a term like "blue eyed soul" has to be understood in its historic context. it is not a racist term at all but on the contrary signifies a crossing of the colour lines which happened in the music world long before it happened in society. see elvis, stax, norman mailer's white negro, mezz mezzrow etc. etc.
    barney hoskyns has written a good book about southern soul and its impact on white country boys: "say it one time for the brokenhearted. country soul in the american south" (1978/reprint 1998).
    the influence of course went both ways. practically every soul singer from the south incorporated country elements into his music and recorded country material. we need a catchy term for them too...something like "stetson brothers" maybe?

    i would prefer a long overdue discussion about the racist implications of the term "rock". which came in use in the mid-60s after they kicked the "roll" (= the black element) out of rock'n'roll and musical segregation set in again. in that regard the 50s were a lot more progressive than the 60s with people like elvis or fats domino having hit records in both pop and r&b charts and attracting audiences of all colours. rock'n'roll was mainly dance music for working class kids, rock music from the british invasion onwards was music for the middle and upper class. today they're all ageing academics. check out the audience at the next bob dylan concert in your area for proof...
    these people always hated dancing too which resulted in outright racist acts such as the public burning of disco records (black and gay) and is echoed in the ignorant condemnation of techno (invented by black musicians and djs in detroit).
    black music/dance music as well as rock'n'roll is generally looked down upon as some kind of childish primary stage as opposed to grownup, serious 60s/70s rock (check out all those endless "100 most important records"-type lists that the reactionaries from rolling stone magazine use for self-affirmation).
    the punks knew why they hated the hippies and why they had to go back to the 50s for inspiration.

    a good starting point for putting things in perspective would be elijah wald's great book "how the beatles destroyed rock'n'roll. an alternative history of american popular music".
  • serpico009 over 6 years ago

    pyenapple
    EviltoastmanDo people have hate against people when they use the term? The term "racist" gets thrown about way too often. Does the use of the term stop people finding work, from buying homes, from usig public services? Does it mean that a group is somehow castigated or treated like second class citizens of even as if they are animals? Are they denied justice? Are they harangued, beaten or murdered because they have blue eyes? Hall's comments are sickening, bringing an important issue and comparing a genre to it. The man needs an absolute shoeing. The thread is an insult to anyone who has been a victim of genuine racism.

    I think you've maybe never heard of microaggression. And don't tell me starting an open discussion about racism is "an insult". Please. Like actual hate has to be involved for something to be racist. Wherever did you get that definition of racism? Casual racism is prevalent, insidious.


    No offense, but it seems like you started this thread under the pretense of "testing the waters" and soliciting opinions when you really already have your mind made up. Some of your responses here are pretty knee-jerk and heated. If you want to pursue those changes, go ahead do so, and then be prepared to make a calm and collected argument backing them up if anyone should challenge them.

    But don't ask for opinions and then jump down the throat of anyone who replies with a perspective that differs from what you were hoping to hear/read.
  • DarkSoda over 6 years ago

    DarkSoda edited over 6 years ago
    Hi, let's face it, when Soul music started being called Soul Music there were only black people making it. White people (and who knows who else) started imitating it. The term was used (definitely, in my opinion as a marketing scheme) for "safe Soul for the white kids". And the term stuck. And we hated it. And the music. ;)

    BUT I would add that it is, much like the term Krautrock, really not be to used, IMHO, to refer to music outside of a certain era and maybe even geography. I think it is very descriptive, and not only places the genre in a place, but also, squarely in a time. A time that had it's moments, but gladly, we can not go back to.
  • phallancz over 6 years ago

    phallancz edited over 6 years ago
    I agree it's very racist to assume that all whites have blue eyes!
    That racism must be the cause that so many whites uses sunglasses everywhere they go, i always thought they were just simply hipster douches, but now i know that it all because of racism, because they did not have blue eyes, thank to the OP for enlighten me in this matter!
  • zero_kelvin over 6 years ago

    Jarren

    Popcorn acquired. See y'all in 3 pages.


    Hey Jarren, I'm out of Popcorn...Do you have some left?

  • Jarren over 6 years ago

    zero_kelvin
    Do you have some left?


    Forget the popcorn, I'm cooking some veggie hot dogs. What's yours? I've got ketchup, mustard, relish. Cheese is mature cheddar. I can do you some fried onions or kalamata olives to pop on top too.
  • zero_kelvin over 6 years ago

    tonight i made a fish soup, rocketsalad with overmatured Ardechois goat cheese...i'm not very familiar in fastfood...; ))

    Nothing happens in this thread anymore....shame...love this kind of chicken or bootleg egg discussions.

    Maybe we start a recipe thread?
  • uzumaki over 6 years ago

    Must have been raised in this thread already but where in Discogs is the term "blue-eyed soul" used?
  • phallancz over 6 years ago

    uzumaki
    "blue-eyed soul" used

    Some artist profile?

  • TopCats45s over 6 years ago

    Type in the search "blue-eyed soul" and you get a bunch of 'em.
  • phallancz over 6 years ago

    So should Sons of Robin Stone be a half blue eye soul group?
  • Farjenk over 6 years ago

    Farjenk edited over 6 years ago
    According to Wikipedia, David Bowie was one early white artist to appear on Soul Train and released Young Americans in 1975- "a popular blue-eyed soul album", yet... David Bowie has one brown eye and one blue eye! Gasp!

    Edit: Oh wait. Also according to Wikipedia's list of people with heterochromia, just like everything about David Bowie, his eye color is "ambiguous".
    "Bowie's status is ambiguous. Some sources indicate that Bowie's appearance results only from a permanently dilated pupil, and not from heterochromia. This condition is known as anisocoria".
  • Plastic-Man over 6 years ago

    This song discriminates against albinos...

    Texas - Black Eyed Boy

    Plz 2 b remove from database, thnx
  • John_Galbraith over 6 years ago

    No wonder so much "racism" exists when petty shit like this seems to define it. People are obsessed with racism.

    Genuine racism is deplorable but some of the petty shit is as annyoing.
  • John_Galbraith over 6 years ago

    Van Morrison's Brown Eyed Girl is racist towards people from Jakarta can we delete every Van Morrison song from the database just to be safe and ensure no more racism from him slips through the net, thanks in advance.
  • seveninch over 6 years ago

    Tokeowave
    She said, "Average White Band". LOL Needless to say I did a double take and was like 'What? For real? There's a band by that name?".


    They were popular and very funky. Sold lots of records. James Brown got annoyed, and the result became: A.A.B.B.

    Part of the inherit racism in using the term "blue-eyed soul" is the pretence that the music will be different when played by white people. It is not. It's all soul music and there is an abundance of examples where soul collectors have been surprised when finding photos of obscure soul artists. It is a ridiculous term and should only be added if referenced as historical odditiy.
  • hookedupsolid over 6 years ago

    Farjenk
    David Bowie was one early white artist to appear on Soul Train and released Young Americans in 1975


    So Young Americans is technically a blue eye soul record?

    Actually it looks like the OP has given up now... were "blue eyed soul" a style from the dropdown list in discogs I would have some sympathy for this argument, but since it is not, I can't see a problem with using the term in an historical context, ideally in inverted commas. I don't have a problem with Daryl Hall's comments, but I don't think he had the discogs community in his sights when he was making them... probably more likely music press and media where the term seems to still get bandied around from time to time, sometimes appropriately and sometimes just through laziness.
  • Mr.Mystery over 6 years ago

    Jarren
    zero_kelvinDo you have some left?

    Forget the popcorn, I'm cooking some veggie hot dogs. What's yours? I've got ketchup, mustard, relish. Cheese is mature cheddar. I can do you some fried onions or kalamata olives to pop on top too.


    I'll have one. Hold the relish and olives.
  • massenmedium over 6 years ago

    massenmedium edited over 6 years ago
    .................................pf
  • MJG196 over 6 years ago

    hookedupsolid
    So Young Americans is technically a blue eye soul record?


    His eyes are the same color, but one pupil is permanently dilated thanks to a fight in his youth.

  • ProfKolbi over 6 years ago

    ProfKolbi edited over 6 years ago
    Daryl Hall should be ever grateful he wasn't born a) into the cork-face era and b) John Oates. That said:

    Racism (Webster's New World Collegiate):
    1 belief in or doctrine asserting racial differences in character, intelligence, etc. and the superiority of one race over another or others: racist doctrine also, typically, seeks to maintain the supposed purity of a race or races

    2 any program or practice of racial discrimination, segregation, etc., specif., such a program or practice that upholds the political or economic domination of one race over another or others

    3 feelings or actions of hatred or bigotry toward a person or persons because of their race

    Note the emphasis on thought and feeling. Bigotry is negative, chauvinism is positive. The crossing of racial boundaries is not a requirement neither is consequence, negative or otherwise.

    Harry Belafonte calling Colin Powell and Condoleezza Rice house niggers is racist. All six brown-eyes are firmly ensconced in the upper 1%. They are not the 99%.

    A skinhead who refuses to buy Dr. Dre or Beyonce is a racist bug on a billionaire's windscreen.

    The number of successful so-called “reverse discrimination” employment and education lawsuits by American whites and “others” are legion. The concept of “stealing a black man's job” is what drove [Invalid Artist] from the Duke Ellington Orchestra.

    What Hall is complaining about is “brown-eyed classical" being socially untenable for [Invalid Artist] or Kathleen Battle where the Righteous Brothers “blue-eyed soul” (or Van Morrison's and Scott's “blue-eyed jazz”) are accepted as inherently inferior, or even discernible from, “authentic black soul-jazz.”

    Discogs users and the d/b are in no way immune. I've got duplicate, blank and wrong credits for Al Donahue; Charles Lofthouse and Alice Simms split right down along their “black” calypso and “white” tin pan alley output. But absolutely nothing on Discogs will hurt them (they dead.) We only deprive ourselves, and every student-researcher counting on us, of the best d/b possible.
  • hookedupsolid over 6 years ago

    MJG196
    His eyes are the same color, but one pupil is permanently dilated thanks to a fight in his youth.


    So Young Americans is technically a permanently dilated eye soul record?

    (I actually knew about the George Underwood story, MJG196, I was just riffing on Farjenk's comment!)
  • Mrzigzac over 6 years ago

    mrformic
    If a soul has blue eyes, it has blue eyes.


    cheap comment as we know from you.................
  • MJG196 over 6 years ago

    hookedupsolid
    So Young Americans is technically a permanently dilated eye soul record?


    You're thinking of Dilated Peoples. They suck!
  • massenmedium over 6 years ago

    Maybe a useful read.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/good-men-project/why-its-so-hard-to-talk-to-white-people-about-racism_b_7183710.html

    Mainstream dictionary definitions reduce racism to individual racial prejudice and the intentional actions that result. The people that commit these intentional acts are deemed bad, and those that don't are good. If we are against racism and unaware of committing racist acts, we can't be racist; racism and being a good person have become mutually exclusive. But this definition does little to explain how racial hierarchies are consistently reproduced.
    ...
    Yes, an individual person of color can sit at the tables of power, but the overwhelming majority of decision-makers will be white. Yes, white people can have problems and face barriers, but systematic racism won't be one of them. This distinction -- between individual prejudice and a system of unequal institutionalized racial power -- is fundamental. One cannot understand how racism functions in the U.S. today if one ignores group power relations.
  • lesch-nyhan over 6 years ago

    massenmedium
    Yes, an individual person of color can sit at the tables of power, but the overwhelming majority of decision-makers will be white. Yes, white people can have problems and face barriers, but systematic racism won't be one of them. This distinction -- between individual prejudice and a system of unequal institutionalized racial power -- is fundamental. One cannot understand how racism functions in the U.S. today if one ignores group power relations.


    I'm glad I'm neither white nor American. But that's pretty funny, I must say.
  • massenmedium over 6 years ago

    lesch-nyhan
    massenmediumYes, an individual person of color can sit at the tables of power, but the overwhelming majority of decision-makers will be white. Yes, white people can have problems and face barriers, but systematic racism won't be one of them. This distinction -- between individual prejudice and a system of unequal institutionalized racial power -- is fundamental. One cannot understand how racism functions in the U.S. today if one ignores group power relations.

    I'm glad I'm neither white nor American. But that's pretty funny, I must say.


    Account closed. A troll?
  • ProfKolbi over 6 years ago

    massenmedium
    A troll?

    Non-athletic (ie: white tube) sock puppet?

    Isn't it ironic:

    1 belief in or doctrine asserting racial differences in character, intelligence, etc.”

    “....good-men-project/why-its-so-hard-to-talk-to-white-people-about-racism...”

    And speaking of the d/b, if, when submitting, you believe you can differentiate Anne Artist (2) from Anne Artist (5) because you see the catalog of either matches the “blackness” or “whiteness” of your sub you will fail yourself, the d/b and every person who trusted you to have done hard research instead of Googling Wiki, Amazon, Huff-Post or worse than all of the above just assume and... “copy to draft.” :/

    If “green-eyed” kletzmer appears on the release, so be it, doesn't mean a thing to the jouneyman-discographer at their task.

  • massenmedium over 6 years ago

    massenmedium edited over 6 years ago
    .......................................hohum
  • ProfKolbi over 6 years ago

    massenmedium [on ignore] and a tsk, tsk in loving memory of an ignorant-hillbilly-cracker-hard-to-talk-to-white people we are proud and privileged to have had as a rep of American-Appalachian culture to the world. Jean Ritchie (1922-2015) RIP.

    You could learn much from her legacy massenmedium but I doubt you would.
  • cellularsmoke over 6 years ago

    Eviltoastman
    It is not racist to acknowledge colour or race.


    This and what Messenmedium said.

    Hall would like to make it 'colorblind' where, ostensively, race doesn't matter; which isn't the same as 'not acknowledging race exists' but in practice that's what happens.

    Soul, and Blues as well, are part of black heritage in the US; and to try and deny that is doing more harm than good. There is, in fact, Black Music and White Music. "Music is music" is a falsehood and erases culture.

    Of course "blue-eyed-soul" also attempts to segregate out Soul music into a Them/Us dynamic, which can be just as harmful. Hall & Oates play Soul Music, they happen to by a couple of white guys. Blue-eyed-soul, in its own way, tries to erase the heritage of the music they play. It's not a particularly good term to have around.

    Anyway, as said, it's not a Style in the database, but documenting it historically in use is what we do, and erasing it does no one any good. You can't erase history, but if you write it down you can remember it and strive to not repeat it.
  • massenmedium over 6 years ago

    massenmedium edited over 6 years ago
    ...........
  • massenmedium over 6 years ago

    massenmedium edited over 6 years ago
    ...........
  • massenmedium over 6 years ago

    massenmedium edited over 6 years ago
    ProfKolbi
    massenmedium [on ignore] and a tsk, tsk in loving memory of an ignorant-hillbilly-cracker-hard-to-talk-to-white people we are proud and privileged to have had as a rep of American-Appalachian culture to the world. Jean Ritchie (1922-2015) RIP.


    Perhaps those sensitive to clanging subtext would care to ponder why this person suddenly decided to drop a bizarre reference to a folk singer into this thread out of nowhere? I mean, huh?

    Cryptic, apparently unrelated but starting to look very, very defensive.
  • Jarren over 6 years ago

    Jarren edited over 6 years ago
    cellularsmoke
    There is, in fact, Black Music and White Music. "Music is music" is a falsehood and erases culture.


    What about Techno? Invented by a few black guys in Detroit yet appreciated & produced the world over, no matter what colour skin you have.
  • 7_Sea_Cods over 6 years ago

    ProfKolbi
    Isn't it ironic:

    “1 belief in or doctrine asserting racial differences in character, intelligence, etc.”

    “....good-men-project/why-its-so-hard-to-talk-to-white-people-about-racism...”


    No, not really.

    What is (sadly) ironic is that posting an article about white people's discomfort talking about racism has lead you to put massenmedium on ignore.
  • Bong over 6 years ago

    Jarren
    What about Techno? Invented by a few black guys in Detroit yet appreciated & produced the world over, no matter what colour skin you have.


    Ah, I remember the good old days of faceless techno. I was sure that Eddie Richards was a fat black fella when he in fact turned out to be a skinny white dude. And I was equally sure that Patrick Lindsey had fair skin. Maybe even red hair.

  • GroundHogPDX over 6 years ago

    GroundHogPDX edited over 6 years ago
    I don't even know what I'm doing posting in this thread, but it makes as much sense as anything, I reckon.

    When I was growing up in Minneapolis, an up-and coming local artist using the stage name "Prince" was initially unsuccessful in getting his music playing on the local black community radio station, KMOJ, because various programmers felt his music "wasn't black enough", or "didn't really fit" within the context of their programming.

    His music also wasn't getting played on the "rock" radio stations, because some programmers felt his music really wasn't "rock", and was considered "too funky" for their format.

    In some ways, this situation parallels so many of the problems a site like Discogs itself experiences; simply that there are so many things that simply cannot be categorized, or put "in a box". But that discussion is currently taking place in dozens of other threads, so I'll leave that one where it lands.

    The artist called Prince was suddenly welcomed home with outstretched arms by most of his former detractors - AFTER he had toured enough, and built a reputation in so many other places that it would be considered ignorant to not recognize the merits of his music in his his own hometown (not that he didn't have a local fanbase - just not in the local media).

    Why is this perhaps relevant to allegations of music profiling? Well, I might be reaching here, but at the time it seemed the biggest obstacle Prince had to overcome in getting the "hometown boy done good" reception in Minneapolis, was based solely on the color of his.... errr, eyes. My sister-in-law - who was black (just like my first wife) - lived on the same block where Prince grew up, and as one of the very few white folks who lived in that neighborhood, I got to hear a lot of colloquialisms relating to race. When it came to music, however, the barriers just seemed to dissolve. Occasionally, someone might try to figure out what a particular style might be called, and it was widely held that names and categories didn't have any place in it. Music was music. Anyone could have "soul, and it wasn't based on color. Occasionally, someone would still try to come up with a name for a style of music, but "blue-eyed soul" was not among those which were bandied about with near-detached abandon. In the communities, music was the rare language that transcended the notion of race, and discrimination - with the exception of the radio programmers and music critics, I suppose.

    Having gone to high school not far from that block, I can tell you that the kids in my school listened to Vanilla Fudge and Grand Funk Railroad with as much enthusiasm as James Brown, or The Temptations (ironically, my own adolescent version of anti-establishment art came in the form of The Last Poets, and Amiri Baraka). One of my former classmates summed it up best, raving about a new LP by Grand Funk: "Man, those white dudes can jam!" That's about as close to any hint of racism that ever entered into those kinds of discussions. The true music lovers didn't have time for any of that nonsense; that kind of classification was for the squares. Small wonder that a few years later, in the same neighborhood, the same kids that were digging Prince and Flyte Tyme were also into Devo, Todd Rundgren, or The Suburbs. "New Wave" became the new "Soul", and no one in our little burg seemed to care what color its' eyes were.

    That's all I've got, I'm afraid. I hope I wasn't too disruptive here. But this is what you all made me remember, and in some odd way, it actually seemed somewhat relevant. Peace out.
  • John_Galbraith over 6 years ago

    GroundHogPDX
    I don't even know what I'm doing posting in this thread, but it makes as much sense as anything, I reckon.

    When I was growing up in Minneapolis, an up-and coming local artist using the stage name "Prince" was initially unsuccessful in getting his music playing on the local black community radio station, KMOJ, because various programmers felt his music "wasn't black enough", or "didn't really fit" within the context of their programming.

    His music also wasn't getting played on the "rock" radio stations, because some programmers felt his music really wasn't "rock", and was considered "too funky" for their format.

    In some ways, this situation parallels so many of the problems a site like Discogs itself experiences; simply that there are so many things that simply cannot be categorized, or put "in a box". But that discussion is currently taking place in dozens of other threads, so I'll leave that one where it lands.

    The artist called Prince was suddenly welcomed home with outstretched arms by most of his former detractors - AFTER he had toured enough, and built a reputation in so many other places that it would be considered ignorant to not recognize the merits of his music in his his own hometown (not that he didn't have a local fanbase - just not in the local media).

    Why is this perhaps relevant to allegations of music profiling? Well, I might be reaching here, but at the time it seemed the biggest obstacle Prince had to overcome in getting the "hometown boy done good" reception in Minneapolis, was based solely on the color of his.... errr, eyes. My sister-in-law - who was black (just like my first wife) - lived on the same block where Prince grew up, and as one of the very few white folks who lived in that neighborhood, I got to hear a lot of colloquialisms relating to race. When it came to music, however, the barriers just seemed to dissolve. Occasionally, someone might try to figure out what a particular style might be called, and it was widely held that names and categories didn't have any place in it. Music was music. Anyone could have "soul, and it wasn't based on color. Occasionally, someone would still try to come up with a name for a style of music, but "blue-eyed soul" was not among those which were bandied about with near-detached abandon. In the communities, music was the rare language that transcended the notion of race, and discrimination - with the exception of the radio programmers and music critics, I suppose.

    Having gone to high school not far from that block, I can tell you that the kids in my school listened to Vanilla Fudge and Grand Funk Railroad with as much enthusiasm as James Brown, or The Temptations (ironically, my own adolescent version of anti-establishment art came in the form of The Last Poets, and Amiri Baraka). One of my former classmates summed it up best, raving about a new LP by Grand Funk: "Man, those white dudes can jam!" That's about as close to any hint of racism that ever entered into those kinds of discussions. The true music lovers didn't have time for any of that nonsense; that kind of classification was for the squares. Small wonder that a few years later, in the same neighborhood, the same kids that were digging Prince and Flyte Tyme were also into Devo, Todd Rundgren, or The Suburbs. "New Wave" became the new "Soul", and no one in our little burg seemed care what color its' eyes were.

    That's all I've got, I'm afraid. I hope I wasn't too disruptive here. But this is what you all made me remember, and in some odd way, it actually seemed somewhat relevant. Peace out.


    Racist.
  • cellularsmoke over 6 years ago

    Jarren
    What about Techno? Invented by a few black guys in Detroit yet appreciated & produced the world over, no matter what colour skin you have.


    I didn't mean to say all music had to be divided along racial, or cultural, lines. There is a great deal of music that is just music; But it cannot be used as a blanket statement for all music, there is a lot of music that is deeply culturally linked to specific peoples and you can't go around erasing that.
  • The_Beatles. over 6 years ago

    John_Galbraith
    Racist.


    What!!!!

    I'm sorry John_Galbraith but I honestly feel that warrants a little expansion please.

    Do you mean the post was racist and by default the poster?

    I must be misreading something somewhere.

  • phallancz over 6 years ago

    The_Beatles.
    Do you mean the post was racist and by default the poster?

    if he was referring to the poster, it's quite ironic since Amiri Baraka was has racist as it can get.
  • Plastic-Man over 6 years ago

  • 8892sales over 6 years ago

    John_Galbraith
    Robots with no emotion on these forums

    That's robot-ist!
  • The_Beatles. over 6 years ago

    Eviltoastman
    Do people have hate against people when they use the term? The term "racist" gets thrown about way too often. Does the use of the term stop people finding work, from buying homes, from usig public services? Does it mean that a group is somehow castigated or treated like second class citizens of even as if they are animals? Are they denied justice? Are they harangued, beaten or murdered because they have blue eyes? Hall's comments are sickening, bringing an important issue and comparing a genre to it. The man needs an absolute shoeing. The thread is an insult to anyone who has been a victim of genuine racism.


    Eviltoastman's post normally impress me as they always seem to be well thought out and concisely presented.

    This one is no exception.

    cellularsmoke
    Soul, and Blues as well, are part of black heritage in the US; and to try and deny that is doing more harm than good. There is, in fact, Black Music and White Music. "Music is music" is a falsehood and erases culture.


    This makes sense to me as well.

    I'm even prepared to go out on a limb here and say the first time I heard Lisa Stansfield I thought she was a black artist and didn't realise my mistake until i saw a picture of her.

    If that viewpoint upsets anyone I'm sorry they feel that way but surely that doesn't mean I'm being a racist?

    Times move on and the phrase 'Blue-eyed soul' probably wouldn't be created in this day and age IMHO because maybe it would be less relevant but the fact remains the term exists.

    The reason for my previous post was simple. The word/term racist is not one that should be used lightly IMO and certainly not just applied on it's own underneath someone's post.

    Edit: Ah dj-veggie has since posted I understand now.
  • John_Galbraith over 6 years ago

    Plastic-Man
    DJ_VEGGIERobots with no emotion on these forums

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspberger%27s_Syndrome


    You said it mate

    Ps - I don't disagree
  • John_Galbraith over 6 years ago

    8892sales
    DJ_VEGGIERobots with no emotion on these forums
    That's robot-ist!


    Damn naggers (Randy Marsh South Park)
  • John_Galbraith over 6 years ago

    8892sales
    DJ_VEGGIERobots with no emotion on these forums
    That's robot-ist!


    Damn naggers (Randy Marsh South Park)
  • phallancz over 6 years ago

    phallancz edited over 6 years ago
    John_Galbraith
    Damn naggers

    Your comments have been reported.

    EDIT: For not being that funny :)
  • massenmedium over 6 years ago

    I assumed that was "sarcasm", presumably GroundhogPDX did too. But maybe they know each other cos there's obviously ample scope for misunderstanding if you just post one offensive word in reply to a whole post. But was there supposed to be some point or humour to the sarcasm other than saying that Groundhog's post wasn't racist?
  • John_Galbraith over 6 years ago

    phallancz

    Your comments have been reported.

    EDIT: For not being that funny :)


    I'm reporting you for not being white ... if you are white, then start acting like it !!

    jokes :)
  • GroundHogPDX over 6 years ago

    Good day! I hadn't really given the "racist" post any thought; I don't know the person who posted that, but I just assumed it was a bit of dry wit, and let it go at that. It seemed too deadpan for me to interpret it in any other way, but that's just how my head works, and I suppose it might be interpreted differently by others. If anyone could read actual racism into my comments, I guess that would leave me scratching my head.

    That said, the comment about Baraka has me a bit more confused - perhaps there is a typo in that statement? Baraka inspired me as a writer in my youth; I've met him several times, and never considered him a racist. By default, if the comment is to suggest that Baraka was a racist, then that might imply that I could be a racist as well, since he was an inspiration to me. Color me... confused...???

    phallancz
    daveshreeveDo you mean the post was racist and by default the poster?
    if he was referring to the poster, it's quite ironic since Amiri Baraka was has racist as it can get.
  • John_Galbraith over 6 years ago

    Baraka defo racist mate - read between the lines in his works ... sickening.
  • phallancz over 6 years ago

    GroundHogPDX
    Baraka inspired me as a writer in my youth; I've met him several times, and never considered him a racist.

    He was, read his autobiography, he was a very confused black man by his own admission, even neglecting his kids from his first marriage with a white woman.
  • Mr.Mystery over 6 years ago

    John_Galbraith
    Light hearted sarcasm


    That's not how sarcasm works.
  • John_Galbraith over 6 years ago

    phallancz
    GroundHogPDXBaraka inspired me as a writer in my youth; I've met him several times, and never considered him a racist.
    He was, read his autobiography, he was a very confused black man by his own admission, even neglecting his kids from his first marriage with a white woman.


    lmaooo

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