• ultimathulerecords over 5 years ago

    ultimathulerecords edited over 5 years ago
    Anyone out there an expert on ECM Records CD pressings?

    When updating Charlie Mariano & The Karnataka College Of Percussion* featuring R. A. Ramamani* - Jyothi I realised that we need some sort of guidelines on when ECM CD's date from. That was after I added my submission notes...
    When cachanoff added this there was no barcode in the info. The original 1983 (But, come to think of it, weren't the first ECM CD's published in 1985?) would have no barcode. The reissue with barcode is clearly a 1994+ pressing.
    Anyway, whatever, the year of this issue is unknown!
    Added text about this issue. Earlier ECM discs have red ECM text and are silver to centre, later ones have the now more common 37mm clear centre...

    Yes, so what we need to know is...
    1. What was the first actual ECM CD release?
    2. The different types of ECM discs.
    3. The lineage of pressing plants and variations used.
    4. When were barcodes introduced?

    As to types of ECM discs, I know...
    revised 27/7/13 4:35pm
    original ECM discs were silver to centre with red ECM text
    1994+ issues 18mm clear centre some with red ECM text, some with blue ECM text
    199?+ issues 25mm clear centre with blue ECM text

    I recall that in 1995/1996 Pinnacle/New Note did a mid-price promotion on ECM on discs that had the blue ECM text.

    Anyone out there with more detailed information?
  • ultimathulerecords over 5 years ago

    I sent an email to: ecmrecords@ecmrecords.com on this matter.
    I wonder if I'll get a reply?
  • MartinR over 5 years ago

    I wouldn't call myself an expert, but

    1. The first ECM CD release was in 1983, Keith Jarrett's "The Köln Concert" without the encore piece. I saw the CD at the "International radio exhibition Berlin" in autumn 1983 and, if I remember correctly, it was already for sale back then - at a price off the charts. The "Jyothi" CD definitely was released only years later.

    4. Even my earliest ECM CD purchases (manufactured around the mid 1980s) have a barcode on it.

    In order to get my record/CD collection properly represented on Discogs, I am currently doing lots of ECM CD updates. Difficult work, given the sheer mass of incorrect and missing information.
  • MartinR over 5 years ago

    MartinR edited over 5 years ago
    It looks like the general color shift from red to blue happened at the turn from 1997 to 1998. Just checked my collection and couldn't find any ECM CDs pre 1998 with blue font.
  • ultimathulerecords over 5 years ago

    Thanks MartinR will be interesting if we can sort it out.
    Earliest ECM CD I have is Keith Jarrett "Spheres" released in 1985, and that has a barcode! - but I got that in 1989, so could be second pressing. That question then is not definitely answered yet. You see ECM were through Polygram and many pre 1988 Brain/Polydor/Philips releases didn't have barcodes, so who knows?
    Just realised I made a mistake with the As to types of ECM discs, I know... and have revised!
  • timetogo over 5 years ago

    MartinR
    The first ECM CD release was in 1983, Keith Jarrett's "The Köln Concert" without the encore piece. I saw the CD at the "International radio exhibition Berlin" in autumn 1983 and, if I remember correctly, it was already for sale back then - at a price off the charts.

    I bought my CD player, an original Sony CDP-101 (very first consumer model) when the price dropped from the original $1500 to $900. That was January, 1984. One of the CDs I bought the same day was the Keith Jarrett release MartinR wrote about, as a very expensive import. There were no domestic US CDs yet. So, yes, ECM had CDs very early on. Early ECM CDs did have barcodes.
  • MartinR over 5 years ago

    MartinR edited over 5 years ago
    Another thing: On http://www.discogs.com/history?release=3226369#latest I entered Manufactured By/Made By as on release (and yes, all three LCCNs are to be found on the release). Now two of those LCCNs were removed referring to http://www.discogs.com/label/Polygram%2C+Hanover%2C+West+Germany .

    OK, the profile says: "Do not use this plant when one of the successors is mentioned on the release", but this comes from the same contributor as the one who changed the LCCNs on the release in question!

    My opinion, however, is: It is absolutely necessary to keep all that information, as it sometimes is the only way to distinguish between different pressings of the same ECM releases. And this is a task difficult enough, made even more difficult and sometimes impossible by deleting relevant information. IMO, proceeding like this only adds to the considerable confusion that already surrounds ECM releases on Discogs.

    Now some may say: You can have the information in the notes, in the release images etc., but I think this would be far less user-/viewer-friendly and less clearly arranged.

    Opinions, please.
  • timetogo over 5 years ago

    I'm staying out of all the lccn arguments because none of it makes any sense to me. Was that profile comment about removing the predecessors every discussed in the forum? If so, then the edit is fine. If not then it isn't valid as far as I am concerned.
  • ultimathulerecords over 5 years ago

    Seems to me that all versions should be documented on Discogs. Of course, in this case r3226369 - I don't have it, so I've no idea. As to the Mariano, that entry started as non-specific and was later updated by my brother as the copy I have on sale at Ultima Thule. But obviously other pressings/versions exist.
    Really the LCCN data should reflect as accurately as possible as what is on the release. The documentation of some of this on Discogs is a bit muddled and not always correct. So, until someone does a proper chronology of everything involving Polygram/PDO/etc. - until then I've no idea.
    To me, identifying the dates of certain types of pressings, establishing a chronology - that is more important.
    Ideally, adding pictures and establishing what a release entry is - is one step. Then people can check it against their copy, and if that's different enter a new copy.
  • ultimathulerecords over 5 years ago

    So, all ECM CD's have barcodes. So that rules out one layer of the equation.

    Anyone know when the shift from: discs with 18mm clear centre to discs with 25mm clear centre happened?

    Anyone out there with enough ECM CD's bought over the years able to establish a chronology of pressing plants?
  • MartinR over 5 years ago

    ultimathulerecords
    Seems to me that all versions should be documented on Discogs.

    That's what I am trying to do - as accurately as possible.

    ultimathulerecords
    Of course, in this case r3226369 - I don't have it, so I've no idea.

    I have it, and the data I entered reflect exactly what is on the release. Now they don't do anymore - referring to a "rule" made by a user himself and (as far as I know) not to be found in the guidelines (or even generally approved). Should I be wrong here, someone please provide links/info.

    ultimathulerecords
    Really the LCCN data should reflect as accurately as possible as what is on the release.

    YES! It's the only way to fight the disarray. I look upon your comment as an approval to (or at least not a disaffirmation of) how I proceed, right?

    ultimathulerecords
    So, until someone does a proper chronology of everything involving Polygram/PDO/etc. - until then I've no idea.

    I doubt we will get there - so the idea is: apply the golden "enter exactly as on release" rule.
  • MartinR over 5 years ago

    ultimathulerecords
    Anyone know when the shift from: discs with 18mm clear centre to discs with 25mm clear centre happened?

    2000

    ultimathulerecords
    Anyone out there with enough ECM CD's bought over the years able to establish a chronology of pressing plants?

    I, for sure, have enough ECM CDs, but especially the earlier CDs were bought (sometimes much) later than when they were initially released. A pressing plant chronology thus is beyond my capabilities.
  • ultimathulerecords over 5 years ago

    See my simple guide at the bottom of ECM label pages: http://www.discogs.com/label/ECM+Records
  • MartinR over 4 years ago

    Going through my ECM CD collection, I realized that some indeed do not have barcodes. I have to revoke my previous statement - sorry!
  • ultimathulerecords over 4 years ago

    I was pretty sure that was so. But I never had any proof. What you need to do now then is (copy to draft and) enter those you have without barcodes as the original CD's and adjust current entries, adding supporting graphics and corrections of course!
  • earshot over 4 years ago

    Barcodes also appear on early releases, in fact the very first CD released ABBA - The Visitors had a barcode
    The early ECM releases manufectured by Polygram, Hanover, West Germany have a outer mirror band like the disc in this image:

    http://s.pixogs.com/image/R-4964787-1380789393-5974.jpeg

    I don't own first press ECM releases any but all early Polygram releases have a smooth jewel case.
  • ultimathulerecords over 4 years ago

    Some releases going back to 1978 had barcodes on them, especially US and international pressings. But AFAIK early ECM didn't. I know for a fact that I've had some, but never kept any images (never thought of doing so in 20+ years running a record shop). We'll have to await updates from MartinR to find out what for sure.
  • MartinR over 4 years ago

    In fact, my ECM contributions to Discogs (mostly) do not need correcting, just updating/adding in the BaOI section. It will take some time (not just a few days or weeks) to get the work done, as we are talking of around 1,000 to 1,500 releases (ECM/JAPO/WATT/Carmo). Up to now, I've updated around 500, and only come across two barcode-less releases:

    Arvo Pärt - Arbos
    Gidon Kremer / Franz Schubert - Valery Afanassiev - Edition Lockenhaus Vol. 3 / Sonate B-Dur Op. Posth. D 960

    I'd like to add "none" in the respective barcode fields (one of the two already has it that way), but I know some oggers aren't exactly fond of that. It would, however, be another step towards unambiguously identifying different versions of the same recording.

    I also feel a bit discouraged by About companies and catalog numbers as a definite consensus has not been reached yet.

  • fulcanelli over 4 years ago

    fulcanelli edited over 4 years ago
    If this can help the discussion, I've just created a new entry for my copy of Arvo Pärt ‎– Tabula Rasa CD.

    ECM NEW SERIES in blue colour, no SID/IFPI codes, Pressed by Polygram, Hanover, West Germany.
    Barcode is present.

    I've bought it recently second-hand so I cannot declare for sure this is the original 1984 release.

    Tabula Rasa
  • Vinyl.Score over 4 years ago

    ultimathulerecords
    I sent an email to: ecmrecords@ecmrecords.com on this matter.
    I wonder if I'll get a reply?

    I trust no reply was forthcoming?

    It's a shame ECM didn't make all the CDs the same colour as the labels for the Vinyl LPs, it's all part of the ECM iconography imo.

    Sorry but I own 0 ECM CDs, in fact I have only ever even seen 1! (Garbarek - Officium)
  • ultimathulerecords over 4 years ago

    I got an auto reply email in German - saying my enquiry would be dealt with, but nothing more than that.

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