• Mr.Mystery over 5 years ago

    Do they really belong here? It's not an audio format and they can only be played with an 8-bit NES console.

    Brad Smith (Covering Pink Floyd's Dark Side Of The Moon) - MOON8
  • Bong over 5 years ago

    Mr.Mystery
    Do they really belong here?

    In short: No.

    Why? It's not recorded music. It's a computer program telling the audio chip in the NES how to produce the sounds. Like a pre-programmed synthesizer.
  • MusicNutter over 5 years ago

    Brad has added the recording to youtube and as a download on cdbaby

    Part 1

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euLdKW_Db1k
  • Bong over 5 years ago

    Here's a recording of the NES that's totally OK though: Moon8
  • hysteric over 5 years ago

    interesting question...
    I don't know if it belongs or not, but surely it's no less an audio format than a VHS tape, USB stick or something like this: http://www.discogs.com/Lucifer-Music-To-Crash-The-Hearse-To/release/5023290
  • Bong over 5 years ago

    hysteric
    it's no less an audio format than a VHS tape, USB stick

    Yes it is for the reasons I explained above. It is not recorded music.

    hysteric
    http://www.discogs.com/Lucifer-Music-To-Crash-The-Hearse-To/release/5023290

    Same thing here. Not eligible. It's samples played back by a computer program. If it was audio files stored on the floppy then it might be eligible.
  • powerstone05 over 5 years ago

    Yeah agreed, it doesn't belong.
  • Blazer1985 over 5 years ago

    I've pended it for removal. If you start with NES cartridges you can add PC based versions, Playstation ones etc. Unless it involves a soundtrack of that particular game i don't mind but this doesn't belong.
  • reallygood over 5 years ago

    Bong
    hysteric
    it's no less an audio format than a VHS tape, USB stick

    Yes it is for the reasons I explained above. It is not recorded music.


    so who's going to put all the piano rolls up for removal?

  • Eviltoastman over 5 years ago

    If you really think about it, most modern dance music is made the same way through programming with no genuine performance. A piano roll or a 8 bit cart is not too much different to anything using a sampler alongside a drum machine.
  • pano9000 over 5 years ago

    Bong
    It is not recorded music.


    I couldn't find any reference to "recorded music" in the guidelines. Can you help me out or where does this requirement for eligibility come from?
  • Bong over 5 years ago

    Eviltoastman
    A piano roll or a 8 bit cart is not too much different to anything using a sampler alongside a drum machine.

    Not many samplers or drum machines in the database...
    Many recordings of drum machines and samplers though.
    In the same way Moon8 is OK but MOON8 not.

    If you record a player piano operated by a piano roll and distribute on vinyl, CD, wax cylinder or whatever eligible media then you can add it to the database.
    That's how it is today. Might be that it changes in the future. I'm not sure if Discogs is the right platform for these kind of things. Where would it end? One might argue for inclusions of all sorts of music memorabilia, from posters to Elvis Presley's underwear.
  • Bong over 5 years ago

    pano9000
    I couldn't find any reference to "recorded music" in the guidelines. Can you help me out or where does this requirement for eligibility come from?

    RSG §1.1.3
    Any item on an audio format (as given on the formats list page) is potentially eligible for inclusion to the Discogs database.

    "recorded music" might be the wrong phrase to use, it doesn't have to be music of course. But I think that part of the guidelines is pretty clear, we're dealing with distributable media containing audio recordings.
  • progcode over 5 years ago

    progcode edited over 5 years ago
    From reading all the comments here, I think it should be explained what this cartridge is. I'm sure most of you understand but based on the comments, some of you don't.

    It is a video game cartridge, but it is not a game. And it is not the soundtrack to a game. Someone took the 8-bit NES game console and wrote a program to use it as a synthesizer to perform their own rendition of Dark Side Of The Moon in its entirety. They have copied the digital instructions to perform the synthesized music onto the cartridge.

    If the cartridge is the commercially distributed media, and the NES is the playback device, it seems to me like maybe it does belong. And since we have the digital file version here as well, they belong in an MR together. I've read the guidelines and this is a borderline case but it is not forbidden by the guidelines as far as I can tell.

    And it is no way comparable to Elvis underwear.
  • Eviltoastman over 5 years ago

    progcode
    If the cartridge is the commercially distributed media, and the NES is the playback device, it seems to me like maybe it does belong.


    I agree.
  • PabloPlato over 5 years ago

    it is eligible. it is no different than releases from Fm3 (Buddha Machine), Tristan Perich, or Tiger Electronic's Hit Clips (No Secrets - That's What Girls Do , Michelle Branch - Everywhere) which have been approved by management in the past.
  • ChampionJames over 5 years ago

    I don't see any problem including this in the database, at least not in theory. There is the practical problem of not having an appropriate Format tag for it. The way it's entered now, with "All Media," is simply wrong. Nik will probably either have to reject the item from the database or grant a new tag.

    (Parenthetically, NES is closer to a video format than an audio format, so RSG §1.1.3.a is probably the guideline that best governs the situation. Since it tells us that "If the item still makes sense with the picture turned off, it will probably be acceptable," that's probably all we need. However, we might need a new guideline subsection dealing with software formats. 8-bit renditions are popular with the Kidz on the Interwebz and we might be seeing a good deal of these.)
  • progcode over 5 years ago

    For the format I might suggest that it be File, at least for now. The "File" is stored on the NES cartridge.
  • Bong over 5 years ago

    PabloPlato
    it is eligible.

    Has there been a change since this: http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/214689#2663862 and this: http://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/5215036094697336111a70a0#5215036094697336111a7068 was written?

    That NES cartridge is sequenced data and not pre-recorded audio.
  • ChampionJames over 5 years ago

    ^^ Hmm, that's sort of baffling to me, actually.
    nik
    Anything that sequences the playback of one or more sounds (either acoustically or electronically) in order to recreate a musical or audio event is not eligible for Discogs. This includes MIDI files, Tracker files, musical boxes, piano rolls, and sheet music. Only items available on the audio carriers listed in the formats list are eligible at this time.


    Any digital format, including Compact Disc, "sequences the playback of one or more sounds (either acoustically or electronically) in order to recreate a musical or audio event." CDs and MP3s and WAVs all do this. What he's saying is, yet again, incoherent and contradictory.
  • Bong over 5 years ago

    ChampionJames
    Any digital format, including Compact Disc, "sequences the playback of one or more sounds (either acoustically or electronically) in order to recreate a musical or audio event." CDs and MP3s and WAVs all do this. What he's saying is, yet again, incoherent and contradictory.

    Once again: CDs, MP3s and WAVs are recorded audio. Sequenced means that you have a script of instructions telling some sort of machine how to play sounds. In the case of the NES cartridge it's a computer program telling the audio chip in the NES console to play different sounds in a particular order.
  • ChampionJames over 5 years ago

    Bong
    Once again: CDs, MP3s and WAVs are recorded audio.

    And once again you are wrong. Any digital format is a string of instructions which tell the player to produce certain sounds at a certain point in time. There is absolutely no difference between this and an NES cartridge.
  • Bong over 5 years ago

    ChampionJames
    Any digital format is a string of instructions which tell the player to produce certain sounds at a certain point in time. There is absolutely no difference between this and an NES cartridge.

    Recoded audio in digital form is Data. It doesn't contain a string of instructions. It's a digital representation of an analogue waveform.

    The NES cartridge contains a string of instructions telling the audio chip to produce certain sounds in a certain order.

    It's a big difference between the two.
  • ChampionJames over 5 years ago

    Bong
    Recoded audio in digital form is Data.

    So is what's encoded on an NES cartridge. It is data. Do you deny this?

    Bong
    It doesn't contain a string of instructions.

    That is precisely what digital data is, whether it's an MP3 file, CD audio data, DVD data, or a game on an NES cartridge.

    Bong
    The NES cartridge contains a string of instructions telling the audio chip to produce certain sounds in a certain order.

    And that's what a CD does: http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/cd5.htm

    You can very easily encode a CD to tell its DAC to produce the same sounds the NES cartridge does. There is no conceptual difference.

    If you don't want the NES cartridges in the database, then fine, but you and nik will have to come up with something better than this "Anything that sequences the playback of one or more sounds (either acoustically or electronically) in order to recreate a musical or audio event is not eligible" canard, because that's half of the bloody database.
  • Bong over 5 years ago

    ChampionJames
    So is what's encoded on an NES cartridge. It is data. Do you deny this?

    The NES cartridge may contain data but it's not data that tells the audio chip to produce sounds, it's a program.

    Read the part about "Data vs programs" in this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_%28computing%29

    ChampionJames
    That is precisely what digital data is, whether it's an MP3 file, CD audio data, DVD data, or a game on an NES cartridge.

    Further recommended reading to understand the difference between digital audio and sequenced music:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_audio
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_sequencer

    ChampionJames
    And that's what a CD does: http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/cd5.htm

    An audio CD doesn't contain instructions. It contains audio data just like that page shows. The CD isn't telling the Digital to Analogue Converter anything. The DAC is simply converting the digital audio data to an analogue waveform.

  • progcode over 5 years ago

    A CD is digital data that is processed by the CD player and converted to sound.
    A NES cartridge is digital data that is processed by the NES and (in this case) converted to sound.
  • velove over 5 years ago

    Bong
    The NES cartridge may contain data but it's not data that tells the audio chip to produce sounds, it's a program.

    Bong is right. A program is not the same as data even though both are stored as bits and bytes on some medium.

    With a program you could instruct a NES produce sounds that will play forever with let's say small variations every 40 minutes.

    Whereas the data, the audio on the cd will stop playing after 40 minutes. (whenever there is no more). Data is dumb. a program can be "intelligent"

  • ChampionJames over 5 years ago

    Bong
    The NES cartridge may contain data

    Yes.
    Bong
    but it's not data that tells the audio chip to produce sounds, it's a program.

    You are only now making this distinction, you did not make it earlier, so I'm not sure what you're arguing against now.
    Bong
    Further recommended reading to understand the difference between digital audio and sequenced music:

    That's mighty obfuscatory of you, but it is a distinction without a difference when we are talking about media (NES vs. CDs etc.) and is not even a response to anything I stated. Nik's remark that "Anything that sequences the playback of one or more sounds (either acoustically or electronically) in order to recreate a musical or audio event is not eligible" is not somehow rescued by pasting up articles about Casios. His remark applies equally to MP3s and CDs, and using the word "sequence" does not give it an alibi unless one wants to employ a nonstandard definition of the word.

    As I've been saying, he/you may not want these included, but the rationale will need to be better than what's been given, because what's been given is replete with problems. If it has to do with performance, and that the audio must represent a given performance, then fine, but that will bring its own set of difficulties. But distinctions having to do with "instructions" and "sequences" are incoherent when it comes digital media because digital media are ontologically endowed with these qualities.
  • ChampionJames over 5 years ago

    velove
    Bong is right. A program is not the same as data even though both are stored as bits and bytes on some medium.

    I never said they were the same. He was arguing with a Straw Man.
  • progcode over 5 years ago

    I agree that the rationale for excluding this is not at all solid. But this NES cartridge is essentially the same thing as a MIDI file or a piano roll. It is instructions for a device to produce sounds robotically. I am sure that this NES cartridge will be banned on those grounds. But they really aren't very different than a CD or MP3, except for the human performance aspect... but wait. A MIDI file could very well be a recording of the digital triggers activated by a human performing it. But it is still verboten.

    Inconsistent standards. Ultimately this will just be a "because we said so" situation.
  • TheTurtle over 5 years ago

    I believe this is just a discussion of words now. The two formats are different.

    CD's, MP3's, vinyl etc. are all a representation (digital or analog) of an audio waveform.
    MIDI's, this NES cartridge, Piano rolls etc. are representations of a sequence of sounds to be played. Similar to sheet music.

    It seems management has decided the first kind of representation is eligible and the second is not. No need to discuss their exact choice of words, as long as the meaning is clear.
  • ChampionJames over 5 years ago

    progcode
    Ultimately this will just be a "because we said so" situation.

    Yes, I'm sure it will. We maybe don't want these things in the database; they maybe make us uncomfortable somehow. So a justification will be found for keeping them out, but that does not make that justification coherent.

    progcode
    But this NES cartridge is essentially the same thing as a MIDI file or a piano roll. It is instructions for a device to produce sounds robotically.

    There is a difference between the media (the physical object), the data it contains (binary states, usually), and into what that data encodes (tones or programs or whathaveyou). A "program" or "set of instructions" does not actually exist on the media; it contains a series of (usually) binary states. The "program" is a concept; it is how we view the data when assembled in certain ways. Throughout this discussion, a lot of these terms have been elided and blended in order to attempt to make data on an NES cartridge fundamentally different than in a WAV file, when it is not. Something better, as I've said, will have to be invented to keep them out.
  • Bong over 5 years ago

    ChampionJames
    You are only now making this distinction

    I did it in the very first post I made in this thread.

    I'm not going to exemplify this further. There is a significant difference between a sequence of instructions and a digitized waveform. To me that difference is clear. I can't explain it any clearer than I already have.
  • progcode over 5 years ago

    I agree with you ChampionJames. I think the distinction that is being made is too arbitrary. The digital format by which CD data is stored and processed and converted to sound is allowed, but the digital format by which NES data is stored and processed and converted to sound is not. If they want to make the choice to exclude specific types of media, it is based on bias and prejudice. And I bet as time goes on that restriction will be lifted.

    It would be entirely possible to artificially program a sequence of CD Audio data that never existed as a recorded audio source that would play back from a CD player.
  • ChampionJames over 5 years ago

    Bong
    I did it in the very first post I made in this thread.

    I don't see anything in that post that would explain your assertions about "data" which prompted my original comment. But let's digress.
    Bong
    I can't explain it any clearer than I already have.

    Alrighty then. I'm sure nik will agree.
  • ChampionJames over 5 years ago

    progcode
    It would be entirely possible to artificially program a sequence of CD Audio data that never existed as a recorded audio source that would play back from a CD player.

    Yes, I mentioned that above. It would be interesting to see how people's definitions on what is eligible would suddenly change in the face of such an artifact.

    The media is, of course, quite dumb. It's how the machine interprets its data that makes it music, or a program, or a movie, or a game, or gibberish.
  • syke over 5 years ago

    Bong
    Once again: CDs, MP3s and WAVs are recorded audio.


    I don't think you know what recorded means
  • ChampionJames over 5 years ago

    Heh. Re-coded, maybe?
  • syke over 5 years ago

    ChampionJames
    Heh. Re-coded, maybe?


    how about entered in code?
  • ChampionJames over 5 years ago

    Hmm. If it's AAD, then let's say "coded," if it's ADD or DDD then "re-coded." Agreed?
  • syke over 5 years ago

    ChampionJames
    Hmm. If it's AAD, then let's say "coded," if it's ADD or DDD then "re-coded." Agreed?


    or we could use Stryker speech "it makey sounds, it entered should be! No idea how, but lets use some moronic way with it"
  • ChampionJames over 5 years ago

    *sigh* If only it were that simple...
  • syke over 5 years ago

    ChampionJames
    *sigh* If only it were that simple...


    we could always create a thousand seperate profiles, maybe that will help?
  • progcode over 5 years ago

    It also seems it will be voted out of the database regardless of what is said in this thread anyway.
  • syke over 5 years ago

    someone should page nik about this
  • progcode over 5 years ago

    SR has been sent.
  • PabloPlato over 5 years ago

    y'all are aware that this isnt the only NES cartridge in the database, right?

    there's an actual music scene devoted to the distribution of chiptune via the source of the sounds.

    Animal Style - Teletime
    Alex Mauer - Vegavox
    Alex Mauer - Vegavox 2
    Alex Mauer With Phlogiston - Color Caves
    Kreese* , Zabutom , And Wiklund* - Project PAL
    Puzzle Boys - Duck Tails

    we allow countless music documentaries now (just look at 2 Pac), even allow the documenting of theatrical movies and films and their chapter list when listed on the release, if they happen to have just a snippet of music somewhere on it. why such a push to remove releases focused on audio, just because they seem foreign based on technicalities? the end result, no matter if a record, CD, MP3, or NES cart, is that music and sound is produced when you press play and you need to visual to enjoy that. i would be more for removing those borderline video releases than these new explorations on the transmission and distribution of audio.
  • Erit_Invictus over 5 years ago

    Erit_Invictus edited over 5 years ago
    Any digital format, including Compact Disc, "sequences the playback of one or more sounds (either acoustically or electronically) in order to recreate a musical or audio event." CDs and MP3s and WAVs all do this. What he's saying is, yet again, incoherent and contradictory.


    More or less this.

    This is a matter of media traditionalism. "I don't understand this kind of media, therefore it's not eligible".

    All music is sequence and playback. Vinyl is etched grooves on plastic made to tell a turntable to make certain sounds. CD is laser etched marks on plastic made to tell a computer to make certain sounds. Cassette tapes are magnetically etched to tell the Cassette machine to make certain sounds. Any File of any kinds are magnetically modified molecules algorithms printed on a Hard Drive and in RAM modules that tell a PC to make certain sounds. This includes both MIDI and MOD files. Cartridges are manufactured chips (And etched marks?) that tell the consoles to make certain sounds. All "recorded music" is actually music put in storage to be retrieved and produced by certain means and machines.

    The rules state only "Recorded media" is allowed. But what is recorded media? Nothing but stored data. Literal physical markings (or magnetically arranged molecules) on a surface that tell an electronic apparatus to make certain sounds. The closest thing to what Discogs understand as recorded we can have is is something we may call "second generation media" - Something can only be eligible for the database if it has been previously translated from analogical sound (Made by either an instrument or a technological device) to a physical format, and then it can be modified further from that format, explaining why we accept electronic music and remixes. Which is flat out stupid. In fact, most modern electronic media is more sequenced and computer-modified samples than loops and analogical sounds.

    In fact, it's possible to spend years and millions upon millions of dollars to artificially create never recorded recorded sounds via trial an error by etching a vinyl or a CD. Creating the "artificial" music that Discogs doesn't accept, but would accept anyways because it was created on a vinyl or an Audio CD/CDr. Old school game cartridges and chiptune music do the same thing to make sound, arranging the chips in different ways to make music, but Discogs would not accept them.

    This way, entire genres of music are nor allowed into the database. Chiptune and Demoscene, which are literally older than House Music and contemporaries of the first 100% electronic song, back in 1977, cannot be here for this reason.
  • Kein.Mensch over 5 years ago

    Erit_Invictus
    This is a matter of media traditionalism. "I don't understand this kind of media, therefore it's not eligible".

    +1 for the whole reply!!
  • ChampionJames over 5 years ago

    Erit_Invictus
    The rules state only "Recorded media" is allowed.

    They don't actually say that, at least not anywhere I can find. This business of "recorded audio" etc. is part of a set of folklore that has gathered around the eligibility rules. The only mention of recording is to be found in the guideline for video eligibility.
  • Erit_Invictus over 5 years ago

    Erit_Invictus edited over 5 years ago
    "Audio formats", rule three.

    Discogs consensus considers an audio format any media used to reproduce recorded music. Anything not considered by that consensus (Therefore not added to the format list) is not eligible by the database. However, by the definition on the guidelines, any media where you can store information can be an audio format. So either rephrase the guidelines or start accepting non conventional music media.

    On the other hand, recorded music also refers the whole "sequenced music" deal, which is whether we should accept digital releases that do not originate from previously recorded sounds or that use a minimal amount of sampling (Like MIDI and MODs, among other, less known formats). Which is idiotic, because by design anything that can make a something else reproduce music is recorded, or to use a better synonym, stored. Even then, most modern electronica has reached to the point where you can make a single sample have more sound variety through sequencing/modifying than a whole orchestra.

    The whole MIDI argument also ignores that files are file formats - not physical formats (Which is the magnetically modified molecules in the harddrive, yadda yadda) - If I want, I can transcode any MIDI and MOD file into an MP3 or FLAV, or even WAV, and they will sound exactly like the original files sound. Once the file is saved and the binary sequences of the bits are finished - That's the finished package. The format is just the way it's expressed - Which may or may involve making permanent changes to the bit configuration that may include even loss of data.

    From what I see, this whole kind of argument is basically seeing a Vinyl purist arguing with a CD listener all over again.
  • Bong over 5 years ago

    Erit_Invictus
    This is a matter of media traditionalism. "I don't understand this kind of media, therefore it's not eligible".

    Now you're making assumptions and are suggesting that those who are opposed to including anything other than recorded audio are narrow minded.
    I've been very active in this thread, so yes, I feel it's aimed at me.

    I think I understand this kind of media very well. Before the High Voltage SID collection came along I was collecting C64 SIDs as an example. The fact is that by the current guidelines those types of media are ineligible. What I have been doing here is trying to explain the difference between different methods of producing audio. As the current guidelines stands today one of them is allowed in the database and one is not. If the other one is to be included then the guidelines needs changing and maybe some structural changes to the site as well.

    What I have argued against in this thread is the inclusion of that NES cartridge based on the current guidelines. You may note that I haven't yet voted for removal of that NES cartridge that this thread was started about.

    Maybe the guidelines should be changed to allow sequenced music? That would mean allowing piano rolls, music boxes, 8-bit game cartridges, MIDI-files, MOD-files, C64 SIDs and so on. I hope that everyone voting Yes for inclusion of this NES cartridge is aware of that. What should be thought about is what is the purpose of Discogs? Is it a site for record collectors or should it also cater for the MOD community and so on.
  • Erit_Invictus over 5 years ago

    You are assuming such things cannot be collected. Of all things you mentioned, the least collectible are MIDI and MOD files, and digital files in general, which are just souvenirs compared to Music Boxes, Piano Rolls, Mother Discs and the rest, which have a collectors market and can be quite expensive. Even then, the only reason they aren't collectible is just because Internet music tends to be extremely available. However I wouldn't bet on it, as if a MOD site dies out all the information in it is lost. We may even argue that technically MOD files are already allowed, since files as a whole are allowed, they are just an unrecognized format.

    ChampionJames
    A "program" or "set of instructions" does not actually exist on the media; it contains a series of (usually) binary states.


    You basically saying that computers operate on magic. Binary states are physical things and their positions are magnetically changed. The HDD (Or whatever hardware is used to read them) will the read the information, retrieve and send it to the processor. When you talk about the most basic aspect of storage in a computer - There's no distinction between each program, it's all data. The processor and RAM then make sense of the data for display and use.

  • Bong over 5 years ago

    Erit_Invictus
    You are assuming such things cannot be collected.

    I understand very well that they're collectible. It's just that Discogs might not be the right platform for cataloguing them. Like I said, I used to collect C64 SIDs. They're stored on Amiga 880kb Floppys. If they are at all readable now...
  • Mr.Mystery over 5 years ago

    Erit_Invictus
    You are assuming such things cannot be collected. Of all things you mentioned, the least collectible are MIDI and MOD files, and digital files in general, which are just souvenirs compared to Music Boxes, Piano Rolls, Mother Discs and the rest, which have a collectors market and can be quite expensive. Even then, the only reason they aren't collectible is just because Internet music tends to be extremely available.


    What is or isn't collectible is a completely different argument altogether. All we're trying to figure out is what's allowed in the database.
  • aasaxell over 5 years ago

    I can't see how a NES cartridge would be valid for the same reason sheet music isn't. (And I'm struggling to understand why this is an issue)

    Look at it this way:

    Discogs catalogs vessels containing recorded sound be it analog or digital.

    Sheet music does not contain recorded sound, it contains a code.
    Give this code to a musician and the musician can create music based on that code.
    The musician is not extracting previously recorded data from the sheet music, he/she is following instructions so he/she can make their own music.

    A NES cartridge does not contain recorded sound, it contains a code
    Give this code to a Nintendo and the Nintendo can create music based on that code.
    The Nintendo is not extracting previously recorded data from the NES cartridge, it is following instructions so it can make its own music.
  • progcode over 5 years ago

    progcode edited over 5 years ago
    A CD does not contain recorded sound, it contains a code.
    Give this code to a CD player and the CD player can create music based on that code.
  • Erit_Invictus over 5 years ago

    aasaxell
    Sheet music does not contain recorded sound, it contains a code.


    It contains instructions, not a code. It's a different thing. Sheet music, unless put in a machine that can understand sheet instructions that could play the music, could not be a format per se (As it's sounds have to be played by a person). But I don't know anything about sheet music so I don't even know if it has machines to read them.

    aasaxell
    A NES cartridge does not contain recorded sound, it contains a code


    It contains stored data. So does the CD, the Vinyl and other formats.

    aasaxell
    The Nintendo is not extracting previously recorded data from the NES cartridge, it is following instructions so it can make its own music.


    This is the same case case as in the vinyl, the CD, the USB other "automatic" (Played by a machine) formats. All technology works like this - It takes instructions from a source and processes it into sound. The word "Recorded", in this case, is synonym for "stored".

    I can't vouch for sheet music - My role in all this is vouching for the inclusion of MOD files. I'll try an get any other format the follows the same logic - Stored data understood played by a machine, such as it happens with all the other formats already included in the database.
  • aasaxell over 5 years ago

    progcode
    Give this code to a CD player and the CD player can create music based on that code.

    A CD player is not creating music, it is reproducing previously created music.

    Erit_Invictus
    The word "Recorded", in this case, is synonym for "stored".

    exactly... where is the stored music in a MOD file?

    Stored data does not equal stored music
  • aasaxell over 5 years ago

    double post
  • ChampionJames over 5 years ago

    aasaxell
    A CD player is not creating music, it is reproducing previously created music.

    Viewed this way, an NES is not "creating music" either; the "music" as it were was created, encoded in a programming language, and then transfered to a storage medium. That storage medium is read, and sounds are reproduced. The sounds will always be the same, just as with a CD. It may be fun to image there is a gnome in the cartridge wearing a powdered whig and composing music, but this is not the case. It's simply data that a machine will read and interpret in one way or another to produce sounds, as with any digital media.

    The conceptual difference many are trying to make does not occur at the point of the media. It occurs with the machine that reads the media. We catalog media here, not media players and their methods of reading data.

    The idea that the audio must be "recorded" is a complete red herring that keeps getting repeated here, but is not actually found in the guidelines, except in the video subclause.

    I can open up a WAV editor and manually enter waveforms. When the file is played, the device reading it will create sounds that have never, ever, not once, been recorded. Are we now saying WAV files are not eligible?

    If NES cartridges are going to be excluded by the edict of nik or for the quite simple-minded reason that they don't exist on the formats list, then fine. But all this business about "recorded audio" is total bunk.
  • PabloPlato over 5 years ago

    aasaxell
    Sheet music does not contain recorded sound, it contains a code.
    Give this code to a musician and the musician can create music based on that code.
    The musician is not extracting previously recorded data from the sheet music, he/she is following instructions so he/she can make their own music.

    A NES cartridge does not contain recorded sound, it contains a code
    Give this code to a Nintendo and the Nintendo can create music based on that code.
    The Nintendo is not extracting previously recorded data from the NES cartridge, it is following instructions so it can make its own music.


    give sheet music to ten different players of varying skills (or even, comparative skill sets) and they will all sound different. there is also the factor of what instrument they play on, how tuned (or not) the piano may be, etc.

    give any Nintendo an audio release based cartridge, and no matter what, the audio produced will be the same. the only difference would be the TV.

  • aasaxell over 5 years ago

    ChampionJames
    I can open up a WAV editor and manually enter waveforms. When the file is played, the device reading it will create sounds that have never, ever, not once, been recorded. Are we now saying WAV files are not eligible?

    Only if they've not been released to the public ;)

    Seriously though, this argument doesn't stand up IMHO. If you create a WAV file, you are creating sound. If this WAV file is then distributed to the public, then you are distributing previously created sound (and is of course eligible for entry in the DB).

    A MOD file/Piano Roll/sheet music/NES cartridge is not distributing previously created sound, it's distributing the means to create new sounds. There are no previously created sound waves here, only instructions on which sound waves to create.
  • aasaxell over 5 years ago

    PabloPlato
    give any Nintendo an audio release based cartridge, and no matter what, the audio produced will be the same

    Only because a Nintendo is a very disciplined musician ;)
    I fully understand the point you're making here, but my point is that the Nintendo is essentially creating new music each time the code from the cartridge is run and not regurgitating previously created music.
  • ChampionJames over 5 years ago

    aasaxell
    If you create a WAV file, you are creating sound.

    Not if I never play it. I can randomly create waveforms in a WAV and never "play" them. I can save the file and release it on my website. What I am releasing is not "sound." It isn't "recorded sound" either. I know this is going against cherished beliefs on this site, but it's perfectly true. All of this "recorded sound" stuff is illusory.

    aasaxell
    If this WAV file is then distributed to the public, then you are distributing previously created sound (and is of course eligible for entry in the DB).

    The sounds produced by playing a NES cartridge on a gray box is "previously created sound" in your parlance, unless your position is that the cartridge itself writes music, not the human who wrote the music and digitally encoded it on a storage medium. It was written and stored as data. The fact that the gray box interprets that data in a different way than does a CD player does not alter this fact.

    aasaxell
    A MOD file/Piano Roll/sheet music/NES cartridge is not distributing previously created sound

    First of all, those four things are not even remotely similar. I know it's convenient for some people's argument to make me believe that an NES cartridge is just like sheet music somehow, but it isn't. Not within miles. Just for one thing, I can recruit a million people to play "Mary Had a Little Lamb" from an identical score, and not one of their performances will be the same as someone else's. If I find a million copies of the same chiptune cartridge and a million working NES consoles, the output should be the same always, as long as the equipment is working.

    Let's try this for a thought experiment:

    I buy one of these chiptune NES cartridges, and I drag my graybox out of the basement. I hook it up, without any speakers. I run some RCA cables from my TV into a digital audio interface. I set the interface software to save the input from the NES as a WAV file. Now, no "sound" has been produced, anywhere. All I have done is transfer the encoded data from the NES to encoded data in a WAV file. It is a simple format conversion, run through 2 distinct codecs. Are you saying the WAV is not eligible?
  • PabloPlato over 5 years ago

    it may technically be reading the code to create the sounds, but the end result is that it produces the exact same audio each time it is played. much like a CD or a record can when played at 0 pitch. these are all capable of producing the exact same sounds, same pitch, same length of time as any previous and future attempt to play it.

    where as say, a music box, on the other hand, needs to be hand wound and depending on the hand doing the winding, it would play at a variable speed and for a variable length of time. also due to the manner in which it stores the "data/music" it does not guarantee the exact same passage each time - the beginning of each "play" session will not always be at the exact same spot as the previous time it was played.
  • Diognes_The_Fox over 5 years ago

    reallygood
    so who's going to put all the piano rolls up for removal?


    They should be put up for removal at this time.

    Unless the NES contains a single recording of the release in question and is not played back much in the manner that MIDI works, it should be put up for removal.
  • PabloPlato over 5 years ago

    ChampionJames
    Are you saying the WAV is not eligible?


    no. for the same reason that home made cassette compilations and user done format encoding of a WAV to various bit rate MP3 file sets are not eligible.

    at best, if you distributed that WAV on a website, it could be entered as Unofficial, but that's another debate.
  • ChampionJames over 5 years ago

    PabloPlato
    for the same reason that home made cassette compilations and user done format encoding of a WAV to various bit rate MP3 file sets are not eligible.

    I guess maybe you see the point I was making. OK. Suppose I am the same person who created the NES cartridge, and I am offering the WAV I created via the method described. Is it eligible now?
  • Erit_Invictus over 5 years ago

    aasaxell
    A CD player is not creating music, it is reproducing previously created music.


    A MOD player (Read: Any music program with the proper plugins) does not create music. It's building previously created music or sounds, which have been build by sequencing samples and stored in a file.

    What both the CD player and the computer create, is sounds. They represent the previously created music. Music is a subjective term that describes things we understand as music. The proper term would be sounds that resemble previously made sounds.

    aasaxell
    exactly... where is the stored music in a MOD file?

    Stored data does not equal stored music


    How do you store "music".

    Anything digital has data stored - That when arranged in certain way forms codes designed to make speakers produce sounds.

    I see many people does not know storing music works, or what the words means even. It's not possible to store "music", you can only store data.

    Beyond that, MOD files are dependent on samples - Short drum bases, synth sounds, etc - And the song is created from those sampled sounds.

    ChampionJames
    Viewed this way, an NES is not "creating music" either; the "music" as it were was created, encoded in a programming language, and then transfered to a storage medium. That storage medium is read, and sounds are reproduced. The sounds will always be the same, just as with a CD.

    The conceptual difference many are trying to make does not occur at the point of the media. It occurs with the machine that reads the media. We catalog media here, not media players and their methods of reading data.

    The idea that the audio must be "recorded" is a complete red herring that keeps getting repeated here, but is not actually found in the guidelines, except in the video subclause.

    I can open up a WAV editor and manually enter waveforms. When the file is played, the device reading it will create sounds that have never, ever, not once, been recorded. Are we now saying WAV files are not eligible?


    More or less this.

    aasaxell
    Seriously though, this argument doesn't stand up IMHO. If you create a WAV file, you are creating sound. If this WAV file is then distributed to the public, then you are distributing previously created sound (and is of course eligible for entry in the DB).


    It's entirely possible to create a WAV file with a single sample and sequencing the hell out of it. How is it different from a MOD file, then?
    aasaxell
    A MOD file/Piano Roll/sheet music/NES cartridge is not distributing previously created sound, it's distributing the means to create new sounds. There are no previously created sound waves here, only instructions on which sound waves to create.


    You don't know what you are speaking about. A MOD file is a file that produces the sounds specified in it's data (Like with any music file). The program that makes you create new sounds, as you say it, it something else entirely. You are not creating new sounds, you are reproducing sounds already created by the artist and stored in a file in the form of data. (That said, I can't say the same for sheet music)

    >There are no previously created sound waves here, only instructions on which sound waves to create

    There are no sound waves in CDs, Memory sticks, vinyl or cassettes, only instruction on which sounds waves to create. The difference between them is the way the data that contains the instructions for the reproducing the soundwave is stored.
  • MarchHair over 5 years ago

    I get what you're saying, aasaxell, Bong, et al.

    I think this is comparable to the big argument over what was the earliest video game cartridge. If you define "game cartridge" as containing all elements of the game program (i.e. ROM cartridges like on ColecoVision or NES) then you're basically speaking about the late 1970s, but if you're talking about any kind of cartridge including those that merely modify the normal gameplay of a basic gaming system (i.e. mod cartridges like on Magnavox Odyssey or Speak n Spell cartridges) then you get a much earlier date.

    Personally I would prefer to keep these kinds of releases in the DB despite the difference. Does this mean that reginaphone discs would be acceptable? Yes. Would piano rolls would be acceptable? Maybe. Would it mean that Elvis' underwear is acceptable? No. The slippery slope argument seems overly pessimistic and the difference is subtle enough that it comes off as arbitrary for many contributors. Discogs is the sort of location where I would expect to catalog and sell releases like these "cartridge albums" (as they're referred to by their creators).
  • aasaxell over 5 years ago

    Erit_Invictus
    There are no sound waves in CDs, Memory sticks, vinyl or cassettes, only instruction on which sounds waves to create.

    There are no sound waves in CDs, Memory sticks, vinyl or cassettes, only instructions on which sound waves to re-create.

    CDs/vinyl/whatever... contain analog or digital representations of sound waves, these representations are then "reverse-engineered" into actual (and pre-existing) sound waves emitted by speakers.

    A NES-cartridge does not contain analog or digital representations of sound waves, it contains programmed instructions for the creation of new (previously non-existent) sound waves.

    A subtle difference, but in my truly honest opinion, that difference makes them ineligible.

    MarchHair
    Discogs is the sort of location where I would expect to catalog and sell releases like these "cartridge albums"

    This I can absolutely relate to.

    ChampionJames
    Now, no "sound" has been produced, anywhere.

    So if a tree falls in the forest... ;P
  • Erit_Invictus over 5 years ago

    Erit_Invictus edited over 5 years ago
    aasaxell
    CDs/vinyl/whatever... contain analog or digital representations of sound waves, these representations are then "reverse-engineered" into actual (and pre-existing) sound waves emitted by speakers.


    aasaxell
    A NES-cartridge does not contain analog or digital representations of sound waves, it contains programmed instructions for the creation of new (previously non-existent) sound waves.


    You are not understanding what representing means. You can represent something in any way or form you want. A series of dots etched on a rock can represent soundwaves, and then you make a machine to understand those dots and make the music. In the same vein, the magnetically arranged data of a CD represents soundwaves as much as the magnetically arranged HDD bits of the file represent soundwaves, and as much as the NES cartridge arrangements represent soundwave. Each of these methods of representation require a special, sound producing machine that reads them and expresses the soundwaves into actual sound.

    There's no magical gnome telling NES to play sounds in such way. The NES is built to read the way the soundwaves represented in the cartridge and rebuilt the soundwaves.

    Soundwaves, represented anywhere, are literally maps of the sound spectrum - They tell the machine "You have this map, these instructions, now go and create this spectrum of sound by putting this amount of sound energy on this part of the sound spectrum"

    In short, the way recorded sound is reproduced works like this - First, you have any kind media capable of having the map of a soundwave/sound spectrum, like Vinyls, Acetates, CDs, Memory Stick, all kinds of files and many other formats I'm probably not aware of. Then you have a machine that has both the ability to read the way the map is written and the building blocks* for it. Finally, you have the speakers, which may or may not be part of machine itself, that produce the air waves that make the sound we all love.

    Personally, I see any data storage format that fits this method as something that should be added to Discogs (As long as it is music). By example, to me, unless there's a machine that can read and produce the sounds sheet music is supposed to represent, then Sheet Music shouldn't be eligible for the database.

    MarchHair
    Discogs is the sort of location where I would expect to catalog and sell releases like these "cartridge albums" (as they're referred to by their creators).


    Not to mention the potential profit Discogs would make by selling this stuff. Some of these things must be truly expensive.
  • massenmedium over 5 years ago

    It's not a recording. But, you could call it a (albeit non-varying) generative music distribution - seems reasonable that those should be allowed. It is music on a medium.
  • velove over 5 years ago

    Erit_Invictus
    You can represent something in any way or form you want.

    So would you say that if I put the following program http://explodingart.com/mmwj/ch1/Bing.java

    import jm.music.data.Note;
    import jm.util.Play;

    public class Bing {
    public static void main(String[] args) {
    Note n = new Note(60, 1.0);
    Play.midi(n);
    }
    }

    on a cd and sell the cd I can then add it to discogs? Because the code can be read using a java virtual machine which will play a sound. (simplifying but you get it).

    Would you really say that this represents music too and should be eligible?
  • velove over 5 years ago

    interesting website to generate music from source code by "sonifying" the source :) http://www.codesounding.org/
  • Erit_Invictus over 5 years ago

    You need a file to store the code. What would it be? .bat, .exe or something else? Does the code come with a MIDI file or it makes the PC play that sound in MIDI?

    Enhanced music CDs contain such things, though they also contain audio by themselves. I'm not a techie, so I don't if this code is made to automatically play a MIDI file stored in it, or tells your pc to create such sound in MIDI.

    The basic memory stick release more or less works like this - An auto-executable who's coding plays a sound file it has storage. - What we catalog is that very sound file, not the code that plays is. Same thing whit what you just posted.

    velove
    interesting website to generate music from source code by "sonifying" the source :) http://www.codesounding.org/


    You can load up Audacity and see how a .jpg file sounds, too, but that's transcribing the file's content - It's not a sound file, but it's possible to force a program to interpret any bit of code it can read to sound.

    If someone recorded that sounds and the put it on a CD, then it can be added. If someone grabbed the jpg and transcoded the Audacity sound results into a mp3, then it could be added to the database. Assuming in all case it's made available for public. Heh, Imagine a "The sounds of JPG" compialtion.
  • velove over 5 years ago

    Erit_Invictus
    What we catalog is that very sound file, not the code that plays is.

    But from what I understand that's the difference between the NES and a cd.

    a cd contains data for a sound file. The NES contains data for code that will create data for a sound file. (simplified) [and not sure how the NES really works]

    Just trying to make it easier to understand that there is indeed a difference between stored music and stored code that will create music. Not all data is equal.

  • Bong over 5 years ago

    Erit_Invictus
    the magnetically arranged data of a CD represents soundwaves as much as the magnetically arranged HDD bits of the file represent soundwaves, and as much as the NES cartridge arrangements represent soundwave.

    There's nothing magnetic about a CD, it's optical.
    Yes, the data on a CD can represent a soundwave. No, the NES cartridge doesn't represent a soundwave, it contains instructions for the audio chip in the NES to create a soundwave.
  • PabloPlato over 5 years ago

    the end result is that you use the release to enjoy listening to music. the primary entertainment value produced by the release is auditory. how is that not eligible for inclusion, yet a disc of sandpaper can get in?
  • ChampionJames over 5 years ago

    PabloPlato
    how is that not eligible for inclusion, yet a disc of sandpaper can get in?

    Because people do not want these in the database for whatever reason, they will find a pretense for keeping them out, even if that means employing magical thinking to argue that one medium when put into a machine that decodes its data produces invariant sound is eligible while another medium when put into a machine that decodes its data and produces invariant sound is ineligible simply because of the way the machine that does the decoding structures that decoding. There is a lot of hawing and puffery about Casios and sheet music that attempts to distract us from this, but this is all there is to it. Since nik is probably one of the people who will make this magical argument, they'll be disallowed. That's also all there is to it.

    If one day these become extremely popular and someone starts making modern players to decode and play them and there is a lucrative market for them, see how quickly management will decide that on second thought these are eligible.
  • Erit_Invictus over 5 years ago

    velove
    But from what I understand that's the difference between the NES and a cd.


    The difference is in the way the file is stored into the medium. In all mediums spoken about in this thread, few if any require a code to exist within the medium itself. Now, all of them require code, either entirely within a chip like a turntable, NES or CD player, or within the processor of a PC. People are arguing that that such mediums are not eligible for upload.

    velove
    a cd contains data for a sound file. The NES contains data for code that will create data for a sound file. (simplified) [and not sure how the NES really works]


    Yes, indeed the console contain the code or rather the chips, needed to play the sound data located in the NES cartridge. Just as the CD player and computer contain the code/chips to needed to play the sound data in a CD.

    Both the CD and the NES cartridge contain instructions to make sounds, each expressed in their own way. Both the cartridge and the CD may be "Enhanced", containing code that plays as an executable file that does something in it, but it does not create the files - It just provides a method of browsing them. We may argue all that under that logic all NES cartridges are enhanced.

    Beyond that, when you refer to something as code, you refer to a bat or an executable file that loads up in your PC. Programs, things you can "run". We are not talking about p

    Bong
    Yes, the data on a CD can represent a soundwave. No, the NES cartridge doesn't represent a soundwave, it contains instructions for the audio chip in the NES to create a soundwave.


    Both things are one and the same. How do you represent a soundwave on a CD? By optically etching the instructions for a program to read them and reproduce the sound. How do you represent a soundwave on a cartridge? By arranged the chips in it in a certain way for a NES to read them and reproduce the sound.

    There's no other way you can represent a soundwave. You are trying to argue semantics saying they are different things, when they are not.
  • timetogo over 5 years ago

    Diognes_The_Fox has given the management decision. We now need YES votes for removal to override the fix incorrect No votes.
  • timetogo over 5 years ago

    timetogo edited over 5 years ago
    A lot of these should be put up for removal as well: http://www.discogs.com/search/?q=%22NES+Cartridge%22&type=all

    Edit: Done. Please vote "Yes".
  • massenmedium over 5 years ago

    massenmedium edited over 5 years ago
    Erit_Invictus
    Both things are one and the same. How do you represent a soundwave on a CD? By optically etching the instructions for a program to read them and reproduce the sound. How do you represent a soundwave on a cartridge? By arranged the chips in it in a certain way for a NES to read them and reproduce the sound.

    While I get what you're saying and I don't feel this release should be excluded necessarily, I think it's debatable if the data on a CD could be said to be "instructions" as such. It's an encoded stream of samples, there's no procedural information there.

    On the cart there's actually a program and no encoded samples (although in theory there could be.)

    Maybe worth noting in passing that a CD and especially records won't produce the exact same audio twice. And that's before you even get into variables in the air and amp equipment etc. ;-)
  • transmutation over 5 years ago

    gotta draw a line somewhere i suppose... and i guess that line is gonna seem somewhat arbitrary... i just think there is a weird general misunderstanding of mediums and while some things that would add greatly to the "cause" of the database (this cartridge... imho piano rolls.. reginaphone discs.. ) fall on the wrong side of that line......... other things like soundcloud remix downloads, dubplate one offs, and entries for every digital format for each release, seem to be allowed yet in alot of ways take away from the "cause" of the database IMHO...

    obviously most of the things i brought up are off topic hot button issues so no need to school me on the merits or argue endlessly on any of them, i just am pointing out there is a weird thing on discogs when it comes to whats what and why....
  • Erit_Invictus over 5 years ago

    Erit_Invictus edited over 5 years ago
    massenmedium
    While I get what you're saying and I don't feel this release should be excluded necessarily, I think it's debatable if the data on a CD could be said to be "instructions" as such. It's an encoded stream of samples, there's no procedural information there.


    The key word is encoded. How do you encode something in physical media? My etching it on a surface - In this case, optically etching it on a CD. In sheer practical terms, a CD is nothing but a plastic case containing some sort of element I don't know the name of, which has been optically modified by laser into a certain shape. That shape, in an on itself is gibberish. But when you put it into a PC, a machine designed to understand such gibberish, then it become something else: Files.

    Case in point, one can build a program that grab certain kinds of files and transcribe their content into something else. In out case, our programs grab the files, which have been carefully crafted to represent soundwaves, and transcribe them into sound.

    The same thing applies to a NES cartridge - The console itself is designed to read and understand the data in the cartridge, and if there's music data on it, it will play them.

    Music is just data arranged to represent a soundwave. They are arrange in a way that the every single second, every hertz of sound energy is detailed. This way, they take a certain size. Encoded samples are just short soundwaves, almost always a single recorded note of an instrument, then it is used by programs that make files like MIDI and MOD files and turned into songs by sequencing them. "sequenced" music is nothing but an artificially created soundwave map, which in not technical way differs from an full analogical map of a CD, being created from small pieces of analog borne samples. Excluding them because of their origin is quite dumb.

    The excuse the staff is making for not including those kinds of files is that music is not recorded but sequenced. This theory has already been refuted, as on practice, all files represent the same instructions - That of a soundwave map.
  • transmutation over 5 years ago

    Erit_Invictus
    all files represent the same instructions - That of a soundwave map.


    all storage mediums even including vinyl... i like the map analogy.. might be a bit abstract but it seems like the difference being argued is a satellite photo vs driving directions... neither one is actually the territory imho..
  • MarchHair over 5 years ago

    MarchHair edited over 5 years ago
    transmutation
    gotta draw a line somewhere i suppose... and i guess that line is gonna seem somewhat arbitrary... i just think there is a weird general misunderstanding of mediums and while some things that would add greatly to the "cause" of the database (this cartridge... imho piano rolls.. reginaphone discs.. ) fall on the wrong side of that line......... other things like soundcloud remix downloads, dubplate one offs, and entries for every digital format for each release, seem to be allowed yet in alot of ways take away from the "cause" of the database IMHO...
    Precisely how I feel about it.

    EDIT: I do think the guidelines should be clarified on this point, though. The fact that "recorded" is frequently interpreted to be identical to "encoded"/"programmed" is made abundantly clear in this thread. I grasp the difference, but I only became aware that there was a difference 27 days ago in the thread linked above. If the relatively minor detail is not explained in the guidelines then I think the problem is almost guaranteed to return.
  • progcode over 5 years ago

    MarchHair
    Precisely how I feel about it.

    ^^^ Me too.
  • velove over 5 years ago

    Erit_Invictus
    The same thing applies to a NES cartridge - The console itself is designed to read and understand the data in the cartridge, and if there's music data on it, it will play them.


    there is NO music on the NES cartridge. You do not seem to understand the difference between data and program code. I am a programmer so I understand the difference. It's not the same.

  • transmutation over 5 years ago

    velove
    there is NO music on the NES cartridge. You do not seem to understand the difference between data and program code. I am a programmer so I understand the difference. It's not the same.


    its not the same. they are different. but theres also NO music on a CD.. just being nitpicky but i think thats the crux of the argument...

    magnets... how do they work? :D
  • hysteric over 5 years ago

    funny to me that you some of you guys are so keen to remove an item that (at least in some circumstance) can be used to play music, when these are totally ok to be here:
    http://www.discogs.com/Runzelstirn-Gurgelst%C3%B8ck-Roto-Tract/release/694055
    (grinding wheel)
    http://www.discogs.com/Honeymoon-Production-Manipulation-Muzak/release/1102919
    (unshaped lump of vinyl)

    btw I have no problem with ANY of the above being submitted in discogs, would much prefer these physical releases/artworks/etc than the endless stream of self-congratulatory mp3/wav releases

    :-)
  • Erit_Invictus over 5 years ago

    velove
    there is NO music on the NES cartridge. You do not seem to understand the difference between data and program code. I am a programmer so I understand the difference. It's not the same.

    Being a programmer means nothing.

    See it this way:

    Data, or rather bits and bytes (If i'm not mistaken), are the equivalent of atoms. You arrange atoms in certain ways a computer can understand and you obtain files, or rather, molecules. Files may contain anything - A piece of code, ready to be executed, or the proper arrangements that make the soundwave map of a song, or other arrangements that make the visual map of a picture. Then you turn the molecules into the next tier of complexity, systems, in a computer's case, by using certain executable codes, you load up a program and then can use said program to interpret and load other code-less*, otherwise unload-able files, like music files.

    In short:
    Atoms -> Molecules -> Systems**
    Data -> Files -> Using files to load other files (Systems)

    *jpgs and I think mp3s can have code, usually malicious, like a .JPG with a .rar "hidden" inside it.

    **System is taken from the point of view of of biology. Atoms, molecules, cells (Itself various systems of molecules processing each other, where it as a whole processes outside molecules for energy), tissues, organs, systems of organs and finally the individual are the basic tiers of complex organization in biology (or at least the way I was taught biology).

    The argument "There's no music in the media" is not valid, because there's no music in no storage media at all, just the instructions to assemble it. What makes the music is the machine built to read the media.
  • aasaxell over 5 years ago

    Right, I'll try this once more from a different angle

    My main point of contention (along with management, rendering this whole discussion moot, at least for the time being) is where the music comes from.
    The fact that music is the end result, be it from an LP or from a NES cartridge is obvious. This is however, quite far from the point.
    There are plenty of things where music or sound is the end result of whatever process is being applied.
    These things can, of course, be digital or analog.

    A NES-cartridge does not contain pre-existing sound, it is a music box. The NES-console is the device that turns the handle on the music box, thus creating sound/music.
    Yes, somebody has engineered this music box for the specific purpose of playing music and lots of people (myself included) think these music boxes are fascinating and understandably collectible. But the music box is not a vessel for sound, it is a machine for creating sound. It is a tool for the sole purpose of making music.

    a simplification:

    The sounds/music that a format produces must have existed prior to the creation of the format itself.

    sounds ---> vessel ---> interpreter ---> sounds = eligible
    instructions ---> machine ---> interpreter ---> sounds = non-eligible

    I'm talking about entire formats here, not specific anomalies that can be found for existing formats such as sandpaper records etc :)
    that's a different (but related) discussion IMO

    Erit_Invictus
    The argument "There's no music in the media" is not valid

    management seems to disagree with you, I'm afraid
  • Christopher_Jion over 5 years ago

    Christopher_Jion edited over 5 years ago
    *multiple versions of 4'33" in database*
    *splitting hairs over music you CAN actually listen to*

    good ol' discogs.
  • Mr.Mystery over 5 years ago

    Christopher_Jion
    *multiple versions of 4'33" in database*
    *arguing over things you CAN listen to*

    good ol' discogs.


    How is that relevant to this topic in the slightest?
  • progcode over 5 years ago

  • Mr.Mystery over 5 years ago

    I know what it is. I wanted to know how it's relevant to this topic.

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