GEMM.com appears to have gone

For those of you who don't know this site has been in financial trouble for some time, today the website and database have disappeared.

If you are one of the many sellers owed money by GEMM do not expect to see it, Site owner Roger Raffee had emailed several people stating that he intends to file for bankruptcy and close GEMM down

It is a sad moment, GEMM was the first music marketplace, dating back to 1995, a true pioneer site, under better management it might well have become an internet giant and for a while it did very well peaking around 2000 with a turnover in the millions.

Roger fell out with co-founder and developer Jim Hall, Jim was ousted and no one managed the site's creaking infrastructure, GEMM was simply overtaken by sites like musicstack and Discogs, sales declined rapidly.

GEMM took the full payment from buyers, removed its commission and then remitted to sellers, for over 2 years the delay in paying the sellers has been growing and earlier this year the site ceased taking money, referring buyers to pay the seller directly by Paypal, payments of arrears pretty much stopped.

Oh well. Thanks for the heads up.

I guess everyone can fuhgeddaboudit now.

Seems like it.

I ordered some stuff a couple of months ago just to add it to the database here. A few sellers already denied my orders back then, saying they won't take any money from buyers anymore and won't ship out any orders until gemm finally pays them.

Ordered four or five times many years ago and I found the whole buying process to be overly complicated.
Additionally, two sellers cancelled because they didn't have the items in stock.
Really bad news for all the sellers still waiting for their money.

Glad I spent my remaining balance a couple of weeks ago!

I can now happily start wearing my GEMM T-shirt as 'vintage' cool.

I just placed 3 orders yesterday!

I guess they weren't kidding when they replied:

"This is just a notification message. You don't need to do anything further at this time."

HAHAHAHA!

I did hear back from one seller though - they no longer had that item in stock. That's what was happening to about 1/3 of the orders I placed there. That's one cool thing about Discogs - sellers rarely cancel my orders here.

they owe me € 50, too bad :-(

edjgraphix
You don't need to do anything further at this time

:-)

Anybody still uses Musicstack?
Since Discogs' marketplace opened, I've only used it once, maybe twice, and that is some years ago..

Used Gemm twice. Never appealed to me.

zevulon
Anybody still uses Musicstack?

I still sell over there and do buy occasionally, Discogs is easy to use but Musicstack does have a very slick interface and search

inexpressible
Ordered four or five times many years ago and I found the whole buying process to be overly complicated.

^I agree completely!^

I never felt comfortable buying anything too specific.
A lot of very overpriced items and often not even something as basic as a tracklisting on the detail page.
IMO, it just came across as sloppy and shady.

Either way I'm sure they helped many independent/small businesses stay afloat and it's sad to see them go.
Fingers crossed for a speedy payment to anyone still owed money!

Can we expect a flow of new buyers and sellers here in Discogs ?

I used them to build up my collection of a few artists. If you had some discographies to reference and were very patient, you could find some good deals there. The e-mailed search agents you could set up were handy, but after a while they weren't showing me anything worth my time. I would imagine that this shutdown comes as no surprise to their sellers.

valparaiso
Can we expect a flow of new buyers and sellers here in Discogs ?

That's what I was thinking. Will there be a lot of new people to teach about our ways? :)

stevies45s
Will there be a lot of new people to teach about our ways? :)

More newbies ? Arghhhh.....

valparaiso
More newbies ? Arghhhh.....

Sad death indeed...Gemm helped my business loads back in it's infancy - I could list up to 250 records a day at Gemm without worrying about all those nuances - people knew exactly which version they were getting - it was the cheap as chips version....and then I started listing here and was told that the silver injection 20p listed single could not be listed under the blue injection listing despite my note 'record sold may not match discogs listing exactly but will be the same artist and title' with each record....It took me a while to get to grips with what Discogs is after the ease of listing at Gemm - yeah, go easy on those newbies if they arrive :) R.I.P. Gemm

Long slow death. Amazon attempted to buy GEMM in '99 but Raffee wouldn't sell. The long sad story is here.

I did get a VG++ copy of The Del-Byzanteens - Lies To Live By for $8.00 long ago (probably pre-dating Discogs, but definitely before we started adding non-dance genres), and seeing what it goes for now I'm glad I did. ;)

widbnetwork
The long sad story is here.

That story is behind a paywall.

JT_X
That story is behind a paywall.

You're right, except that's because I freakin' posted the wrong link. Try it now; it should be good.

widbnetwork
The long sad story is here.

They could make a movie about that, what a story. I used Gemm back in the late 90s/early 00s. haven't really bothered after that. I did find some (at the time!) good deals there when US-EU shipping was still affordable. Now these items go for less than half of what I paid for them :P

Hmm, I used them once or twice, they had some stuff that is not listed here (yet). From a pure buyer's standpoint it's a pitty, I like being able to watch in different places. Also: Anything that I buy here is already listed. So where's the fun of submitting? :-)

For the love of all that is sane I hope ARCHDD does not migrate here.

If you do not know who that is, be very thankful.

valparaiso
Can we expect a flow of new buyers and sellers here in Discogs ?

I think most of them they are already here... and that's one of the reasons gemm had troubles, no?

I remember using GEMM maybe 5 times. 4 of those times the seller either cancelled my order because they didn't have the item or simply never acknowledged my order. Gave up on it.

Very sad news; used to purchase stuff on a regular basis from GEMM for a very long time (2003-2010) - my last order there was more than 3 years ago though, noticed most sellers never updated their pages and many simply removed their whole stock. When I heard it faced financial problems I knew this was the end of it, it was up against fierce competition anyway. Very fond memories and some incredible bargains for me on GEMM, but life goes on.

Circa 1997/99 GEMM was a great place to find rarities quite cheap and then sell them for 2 to 5 times as much as auctions on ebay...

streppe
I think most of them they are already here... and that's one of the reasons gemm had troubles, no?

That was what I thought too.

ChucksLPs
Thanks, LPJones, you've given me something to think about. I'm more of an accumulator than a collector or vinyl wonk, so I'm going for something simpler. MusicStack?

Sorry man -no computer for days - ok let me try reply - I think that you are writing asking as a buyer here yeah? I think this thread will answer any questions you have regarding buying here. The general advise being to either stick with the dealers who always double check that their listing is accurate or to ask questions and only order if you receive a satisfactory reply...and then there is the safety net of a refund should the dealer post a version of a disc that does not correspond to the one listed.
Musicstack? A great site as far as I know - I'd suggest you use both but make sure you deal with a communicative dealer. Good luck and have fun...

I got a lot of good bargains and a couple of great rarities from Gemm while they were still in their prime. Made some money reselling underpriced records too.
I had a shop there for a long time, but got tired of their complicated business model and moved everything to discogs. Even navigating Gemm as a seller was very chaotic. They had lots of options for pictures, sound and using gemm as backend to your own shop. But it was too much of a hassle getting it all set up. And then there was their payment process...

Musicstack has pretty much become what Gemm should have evolved into. It's a nice and easy site to use if you're not interested in dealing with minor differences with records (sometimes this also includes knowing the b-side title of a record). Just like Gemm used to be, only more up to date.

ChucksLPs
I'm primarily a seller. Was "ChucksLPs" on GEMM. Also sold on Ebay until they merged with PayPal and became a nightmare for me. (I have 924 and 100% positive feedback on Ebay.)

Ah well that's different...I think you'll be fine to up load your database at Musicstack while getting to grips with Discogs but I highly recommend you get accustomed to the place here - more sales by far. Others give far better advice than I and I know that there is a way of uploading a database here but I can't help with that - I upload one by one - I check the listing and check the image against my copy and if it's correct I list for sale; if it isn't I copy to draft and then list my altered copy. If it's a major pain like the Stones or the Beatles I leave it for fairs and boots. I'd advise that you read the guidelines (I printed out heaps of em to read in traffic jams etc - printed on card like my O level revision all them years ago; still don't understand it all) and trawl through the forums here saving thread of useful info...and then fire away listing at the risk of making huge errors - just doublecheck before posting anything and contact the customer with the bad news of any blunders you've made - it all get's easier and before long you'll find that you recognise yourself in many of the comments on this thread Good luck with it all - Welcome to Discogs -feel free to PM me for any help and of course shout out here in the forums - there are some funny folk but most people are ok here.

PayPal is optional but obviously most customers prefer to pay via PayPal...you can insist on bank transfer / cheques but yes pretty much PayPal is required if you want sales. Without trying to second guess what it is that you don't like about PayPal I'll agree that they're not friendly. Many of my customers have had a different Discogs address to the PayPal address so make sure you get that sorted prior to posting. There's much advice regarding PayPal in the forums here so I won't bang on about PayPal too much. Good to hear your felling less overwhelmed; take it slowly; it all starts to make sense; get in touch if you need help or go to this page, all the best.

michaelt977
this is indeed very sad.i loved using gemm for all my music needs & wants.looks like i have no choice but to use musicstack.com to purchase lps & cds from now on.this is really sad.

I hear there's a website called Discogs where you can buy a few lps & cds.

I forget the actual address but I'm sure if you Google "Discogs" you'll find it.

michaelt977
.looks like i have no choice but to use musicstack.com to purchase lps & cds from now on.this is really sad.

Jarren
I hear there's a website called Discogs where you can buy a few lps & cds.

lol, almost as inexplicable as this: http://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/690072

LPJones
PayPal is optional but obviously most customers prefer to pay via PayPal...

PayPal is actually a requirement on MusicStack.
http://www.musicstack.com/forum/index.cgi?mid=74552
Post#29

nerdfly
lol, almost as inexplicable as this: http://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/690072

When you google "gemm", the second result right after the dead-end gemm.com is this very forum topic.

Mop66
I used them once or twice

So did I, and that was from a seller/collector with whom I already had an extensive email contact years before. Eventually I also set up my own store there to sell. But at the same time in 2009 I started to sell on Discogs and it was running so smoothly I didn't even bother to begin listing on GEMM.

Mop66
Also: Anything that I buy here is already listed. So where's the fun of submitting? :-)

Buy a "Not-actual-item" candidate, submit it upon arrival, report the seller, file a Paypal dispute, return the item.
;)

dead_parrot
When you google "gemm", the second result right after the dead-end gemm.com is this very forum topic.

When you duckduckgo "gemm", the second result right after the dead-end gemm.com is "Professional Refrigeration".
Hm.
What does it want to tell us?

michaelt977
this is indeed very sad.i loved using gemm for all my music needs & wants.looks like i have no choice but to use musicstack.com to purchase lps & cds from now on.this is really sad.

Hey Michael you may have guessed from the cryptic comment that followed your post that you can buy from Discogs. I'm presuming that you stumbled on the Forum via google but if you go here you'll find 21 and a half million records for sale - play around with the filters / search engine etc and as above check with the dealer if you are wanting the specific version listed. Welcome to Discogs!

michaelt977
i'm also going to use discogs for all my lp & cd purchases,looks like i'm going to be able to order from peter jelic who was also a seller on gemm & i hope he's on discogs.

Stop Press! I see you found how to already.

Sad to hear the news about GEMM. Personally i never had a problem with GEMM when i ordered from them, but i like Discogs better!!

I suppose we will have to right off the hundreds of $$ they owe us and the paid man hours spent listing stuff !

LPJones
Hey Michael you may have guessed from the cryptic comment that followed your post that you can buy from Discogs.

Yeah sorry about that, I was a little cheeky there. To be fair, Discogs is now the largest bespoke online hard-copy music marketplace so it's not difficult to spot, even with a cursory Google search.

ChucksLPs
It surely looks that way. I'd be happy just to get my database back, but that's not going to happen.........unless?

If you email Roger, his email at gemm.com is still working, he may be able to send you the database

loukash
Buy a "Not-actual-item" candidate, submit it upon arrival, report the seller, file a Paypal dispute, return the item.
;)

Yahh...but seems like a rather burdensome process ;-)

Hey, you have asked for "the fun of submitting". I'm providing you a precise tutorial how to make it happen, and yet you complain? Is that all I get now for my service? Where's the gratitude? I'm sooo disappointed… :(
*closes the notebook lid and walks off*

Sad news for all sellers! I ordered since 98 on Gemm, last time 10 days ago. But last three years Discogs are #1 for me.

That site was nothing but trouble for me.
When buying from their you're not only dealing with the sellers but Gemm also gets involved with each transaction that you make which always caused major screw ups with orders. I had terrible experiences when sellers didn't have any items in stock and then i use to get the incorrect refund by Gemm. This happen twice with two purchases i made back to back in the span of two years (that's how shitty that site was) and they kept a few bucks from me as a result this is why i never buy from there anymore.

I listed stuff there back in the late 1990s early 00s. What I absolutely hated (beside the lame graphic layout) was the fact that they collected the money of your sale and it took ages for them to send it to you. Long after you'd shipped the items. Don't know if it stayed like that or not, but that's why I left and never looked back.

Mikesvinyl&cds

I would get a migraine trying to navigate the details of their listings...after a half dozen searches I abandoned it. Extremely bad layout design for buyers....

Hi there ! Sad to know that Gemm is dead... I've bought hundred of records at Gemm between 2004 and 2013, and I NEVER got any problem with them. 2 parcels were lost in 9 years and I got a very fast refund from them in both cases... For me it was a buyer's paradise ! The site just could have been a little more organized. I Never used them as a seller. Musicstack is close to Gemm, and sure it's more user-friendly. I've happened to find at Musicstack LPs that were nowhere else (recently an italian "Greatest hits" vinyl by the Ronettes in VG+ condition).
Somebody mentioned the seller ARCHDD who was at Gemm : ohhh I've got some very good fits of laughter when looking at the ARCHDD lists... old common Moody Blues LPs at $ 80 +, the Beach Boys' "love you" U.S. current LP at $ 50 etc... true delight !
R.I.P Gemm, as it has been very important in my record buyer's life.

domcat53
I've happened to find at Musicstack LPs that were nowhere else (recently an italian "Greatest hits" vinyl by the Ronettes in VG+ condition

The Ronettes - Greatest Hits

When I bought this LP there was none to sell at Discogs... anyway, thanks for the link.

nerdfly
domcat53I've happened to find at Musicstack LPs that were nowhere else (recently an italian "Greatest hits" vinyl by the Ronettes in VG+ condition

Ronettes, The - Greatest Hits

There is inevitably loads of stuff on Musicstack that you cannot find on Discogs and Vice Versa.

Musicstack has a simple upload, I can put all my 42000 items up there in a few seconds, Discogs I have to match them to a specific release and that takes time so I have only got about 2 thirds of my stock listed here

For smaller sellers who do not want to carry their own database Discogs is much easier, that means lots of stuff here that never get listed on Musicstack.

I shop on both and check prices, it is surprising how often an item that is expensive on one site can be picked up cheaply elsewhere

Thanks for the updates. However, i will remember Gemm as a site where i found some of my great records in my collection. For all of those affected by the financial burden left by the administrators of the site, hope they get their money back.

Was buying and searching at GEMM pretty often. Last order was some months ago. The place was nice for rare items. Tried to reach site for last several days and then found this topic. It is actually nice to have different places.

gemm was pretty cool. i found some records for cheap prices.

Jarren
For the love of all that is sane I hope ARCHDD does not migrate here.

If you do not know who that is, be very thankful.

You are so right! just what planet were these guys on? unbelievable high prices!

lennyt
You are so right! just what planet were these guys on? unbelievable high prices!

They worked on gullibility. They listed thousands of items that they did not own, at 10 times the market value, and if someone was stupid enough to buy one they would order the item from another seller at the normal price and get it shipped to the buyer. It's commonly called "drop shipping", and is banned on Discogs.

A very despicable practice, although it's hard to feel sympathy for someone who simply clicks "buy" on the first link they stumble upon.

Total owed is apparently half a million $
You can follow the case here
https://pacer.psc.uscourts.gov/pcl.html

If you have lost you can contact the lawyer but the reality is there is probably nothing left, this company was run into the ground

Some sellers have been hit doubly hard as they backended their databases with GEMM, if they did not download it is lost, perhaps years of work.

Jarren
They worked on gullibility. They listed thousands of items that they did not own, at 10 times the market value, and if someone was stupid enough to buy one they would order the item from another seller at the normal price and get it shipped to the buyer. It's commonly called "drop shipping", and is banned on Discogs.

I remember they had very good feedbacks from the buyers... So here we are in the mysteries of the human brain, where cupidity (of the so-called seller) meets stupidity (of the buyer) !

Here is the Petition
https://s3.amazonaws.com/images.musicstack.com/gemm_bankruptcy_petition.pdf
total owed $514,130.95
assets valued at $29,533

I'd already written off the $160 I'm owed but two questions....where the hell did all the money go and how on earth did Craig Moerer allow his bill to run up to $20k+

I am glad I had nothing to do with the site. I bet he wishes he said yes to amazon now...
It must be a little like knowing you had the winning lottery ticket and lost it.

Well
it could've been way worse, They still owe me plenty but at least they gave fair warning in advanced that they were going to ultimately leave you in tathers.

AV-Media
I am glad I had nothing to do with the site. I bet he wishes he said yes to amazon now...
It must be a little like knowing you had the winning lottery ticket and lost it.

He paints it as he was always a fish swimming with sharks, but i think the reality is he could have pushed a pretty nice deal for himself, got a pile of Amazon shares and be sitting on a lot of money now. The whole 'Interview' smacks of someone trying to rewrite their own history

That said I hope Discogs never sell, it is independent sites like this that keep small sellers alive

Such sad news. Whilst Discogs is great for getting stuff, I managed to find stuff for sale on that site that I couldn't here - and have even added stuff to artists discogs here that weren't listed. I never had a problem ordering from that site. Hopefully it'll come back at some point, but I guess until then I'll use Discogs and Musicstack.

Most of the items I've purchased from Gemm (early - mid 2000s) were generally the wrong versions (Not Actual Item). Had a few good deals, but the negative outweighed the positive. So I just gave up.

trafaelwyr
Hopefully it'll come back at some point

I wouldn't hold your breath, sorry.

more_music
Here is the Petition
https://s3.amazonaws.com/images.musicstack.com/gemm_bankruptcy_petition.pdf
total owed $514,130.95
assets valued at $29,533

So he just took the cash and spent it I guess.... naughty man!

I used GEMM back in the late 90's/early 2000's when there was little else out there. The last few times I'd visited the site I found the same ancient site architecture and the same old issues when trying to order - product wasn't available or was not as listed. GEMM did themselves in and for that I can't feel sorry for them. Sounds like most sellers also found the system untenable as time went on.

up to the last days of Gemm it was possible to get expensive discogs records very cheap at Gemm ... sad that its gone ...

GEMM ended the business, Roger confirmed by email to me yesterday. Very sad notice

constantin_sankathi
expensive discogs records very cheap at Gemm

Some discogs prices are truly amazing. I looked up a record today that was $175 on discogs (2 copies from different sellers) and $35 to $60 on ebay (and $30 in a facebook group).

more_music
The whole 'Interview' smacks of someone trying to rewrite their own history

That was my impression when I read it back when it was originally published.

R.I.P. gemm.com, for you were the first to feed my music addiction!

Frankie 😵🔊🔊🔊

Ordered four or five times many years ago (essentially <PIG> japanese edition. I also found the whole buying process to be overly complicated. But I was satisfied with the item. It's always sad to see a site like that closed. But I prefer Discogs so far away !

I bought I few records from that website that could not find anywhere else. I always tho it was a nice alternative place to find rare hard to find records, sometimes cheaper that Discogs, and fortunately never had a problem or issue with my orders, shipping or payments.. So sad it is gone...

lennyt
JarrenFor the love of all that is sane I hope ARCHDD does not migrate here.

If you do not know who that is, be very thankful.

You are so right! just what planet were these guys on? unbelievable high prices!

Many people have mentioned the seller ARCHDD. Something similar is already happening here with other sellers, like DM-collector (buying DM records at ebay and reselling them here at 4 or 5 times the price paid by him). This doesn´t help Discogs at all.

As a buyer I've had some good deals on groovecollector.com in the past. No idea whether that place is of interest from a sellers perspective though.

I had 1000 listings on Gemm before starting on Discogs. Being able to list any issue without waiting for approval was a real benefit. But one dealer there would always list about 25 copies of the same album. How could you be sure he actually had that many or just wanted to get his name on there 25 times. I quit trusting the validity. Also they said I had a payment coming in two weeks and it never came. I believe I lost about $50, maybe a bit more.

That's horrible. Gemm.com was one of my fave places to roam for nearly 2 decades now. There was an item that NEVER has sold on discogs that I wanted from there and though it was only 4 songs, it was going for $69 and now I don't know if I will ever find it. I was just getting around to purchasing it and kept checking but the site was down. Then it seemed like it was down for good. Sad about Gemm.com going bankrupt.

I was a seller at GEMM for nearly 10 years - it worked well, but the staff was usually unkind when I needed some help.
The last issue I had was about a buyer who complained he had not received a packet from me
(although the USPS website showed that it was delivered to him).
Even so, they refunded the buyer.
When I asked them: "the USPS says it was delivered to the buyer, what else can I do?", I got this answer from someone called Roger: "I don't know, since I don't work at the Post".
OK, now you've gone bankrupt?
Well, you deserved it.

So sorry to hear of the Gemm site hitting the dust. I used them for years finding very rare and hard to find vinyl records and never had a problem in over 100 or so dealings with them.

laerciojr
When I asked them: "the USPS says it was delivered to the buyer, what else can I do?", I got this answer from someone called Roger: "I don't know, since I don't work at the Post".

What. A. Dick.

Yeah, I used them for years starting in the 90's as they had a huge searchable database. Some of the prices asked from the Sellers were a bit insane, but the bargain basement sellers more than made up for it. I guess my wantlist is gone now, lol. I hope they safely delete Credit Card info saved in personal accounts.........like mine.