• tony.lee over 2 years ago

    tony.lee edited over 2 years ago
    Recently an edition of a 12" I added to the database was merged with another version. The version I added was marked (by hand) PROMO. The other editions are marked (by hand) with a number.

    I've read the guideline associated with this kind of situation but in this case I'm not sure the merge is valid?

    Guideline states: "items that have otherwise been marked or altered after manufacture, differences in releases with hand-made artwork that are part of the same edition, and individually numbered items on otherwise identical copies will not be allowed as unique releases"

    In this case the retail versions are marked by hand with a number (....of 303) the promotional items are marked by hand promo.

    The items marked promo were intended for promotional use. They were not available commercially. and I feel this part of guideline 6.12.2 covers this.
    "Any item labelled as being released for promotional purposes, including advance copies sent out to promote a retail release. This tag should only be used where it is clear the item was released as such, for example it is explicitly mentioned on the release, or by the label, artist, or other reliable source."

    In this case the artist has said to me that a certain number were marked and intended for promotional use.

    Here's the release in question that I added (that has now been merged). Although this question relates to most releases on this label as most have had a merge in the last few days.

    I Love Acid 004
  • TheTurtle over 2 years ago

    In general, if a release is only marked as "promo" by hand, then it is not considered a promo on Discogs.

    But there is another difference here, that I think makes it a separate release. The "real" release is numbered, yours is not. That alone, I think, will make it a separate release in the database.
  • tony.lee over 2 years ago

    tony.lee edited over 2 years ago
    TheTurtle. Exactly how I was feeling.

    I've got other records in my collection that are retail versions marked with a 'promo' stamp after manufacture. They I understand are not unique releases.
    In this case they are either numbered OR marked as promo. The retail editions are not numbered AND marked as promo. They were destined to be promotional items from the outset.
  • Disaster_Area over 2 years ago

    tony.lee
    This tag should only be used where it is clear the item was released as such, for example it is explicitly mentioned on the release, or by the label, artist, or other reliable source


    This: limited editions that are numbered mostly use unnumbered copies as promos - with or without writing 'promo' instead of a number. "released as such" is the key.
    Therefore any hand-writing (number or 'promo' tag) added after manufacturing will NOT justify a unique release. Otherwise every sinlge numbered copy would be 'unique'.
  • F104G over 2 years ago

    Disaster_Area
    Otherwise every single numbered copy would be 'unique'.


    ^This
  • tony.lee over 2 years ago

    Disaster_Area
    Otherwise every sinlge numbered copy would be 'unique'


    I understand the logic with this statement but doesn't the fact that one group were intended for retail and the other as promotional items have any bearing?
  • avalon67 over 2 years ago

    Much as I don't like to disagree with TheTurtle I believe the merge was correct, there's no difference, in Discogs terms, between 'Promo' written on the release or a number.
  • avalon67 over 2 years ago

    tony.lee
    Disaster_AreaOtherwise every sinlge numbered copy would be 'unique'

    I understand the logic with this statement but doesn't the fact that one group were intended for retail and the other as promotional items have any bearing?


    They were all equal when they left the factory
  • TheTurtle over 2 years ago

    avalon67
    Much as I don't like to disagree with ClausTurtle I believe the merge was correct, there's no difference, in Discogs terms, between 'Promo' written on the release or a number.

    I get that regarding the promo tag.But what bout it being numbered? This would mean, that a release sold in a numbered an an unnumbered version is the same?
  • DetroitBootyBass over 2 years ago

    I also think the merge was correct.
  • Disaster_Area over 2 years ago

    TheTurtle
    This would mean, that a release sold in a numbered an an unnumbered version is the same?

    Only if the numbering field were absent from the unnumbered version.
    I often come across editions that have numbering in a specific field (mostly a white rectangle) with some copies without any numbering at all, Just happens. As said, unnumbered copies are mostly promos.

    I must also say, that this case is not very logical - why would an identical release be sold numbered AND unnumbered - unless the re-press run were not numbered (typical) - but then it is a re-press and may thus be unique in itself, if it can be identified (e.g. by not being numbered ...)
  • tony.lee over 2 years ago

    But what about the promo tag being valid if the artist says that they were intended as promotional copies?
    Guideline 6.12.2 ................."This tag should only be used where it is clear the item was released as such, for example it is explicitly mentioned on the release, or by the label, artist, or other reliable source."
  • avalon67 over 2 years ago

    I think that is more applicable to, for instance, a single that is not commercially available but doesn't explicitly mention Promo on the disc or sleeve, where "the label, artist, or other reliable source." states that it was only released for promotional purposes.
  • tony.lee over 2 years ago

    avalon67
    I think that is more applicable to, for instance, a single that is not commercially available but doesn't explicitly mention Promo on the disc or sleeve, where "the label, artist, or other reliable source." states that it was only released for promotional purposes.


    I didn't read it that way but that certainly makes sense.
  • avalon67 over 2 years ago

    Here's an example
    Fields Of The Nephilim - Chord Of Souls
    Nowhere on the release does it mention 'promo', 'not for sale', 'radio use only' etc etc
  • oneseven over 2 years ago

    These unique versions were/are only available via the label and are marketed as unique
  • TheTurtle over 2 years ago

    Disaster_Area
    I must also say, that this case is not very logical - why would an identical release be sold numbered AND unnumbered

    I have seen this a lot of times with small vinyl-releases, no limitation is given, but when they are released, it is announced that, eg. "the first 100 copies are numbered". If that numbering is done from the label, I had until now expected that to be a unique release. But of course it can be argued, that it is a post-manufacturing numbering. But then again, aren't all hand-numbered copies post-manufacture changes, then?
  • Silvermo over 2 years ago

    I would write in the releasenotes that there is handnumbered copies and copies handmarked as promo.
    And if the first 100 copies is handnumbered. I would write that in the releasenotes.
  • FromLondon over 2 years ago

    I disagree with most of the thread.
    It is not about how they left the pressing plant, it is how they left the record company, how released.
    If some are written promo, and distributed by the label, it is marketed as promo, is a promo, is unique.
  • Bong over 2 years ago

    Here's another merge on the subject: https://www.discogs.com/release/6191393-RetroMastas/history#latest
    I'm hesitant to vote Yes in a case like this since it's hard to justify the "numbered" tag on the copies lacking the number.
  • FromLondon over 2 years ago

    numbered release vs promo release from label. No.
  • mfkauz over 2 years ago

    mfkauz edited over 2 years ago
    I'm with FromLondon.
    FromLondon
    It is not about how they left the pressing plant, it is how they left the record company
    Guideline 6.12.2. Promo says: "Any item labelled as being released for promotional purposes, including advance copies sent out to promote a retail release. This tag should only be used where it is clear the item was released as such, for example it is explicitly mentioned on the release, or by the label, artist, or other reliable source." So all good the set up its own entry as a promo copy, if the release is explicitly labelled as a promo by handwriting. normally, noone will find such promo copies at a retailer. maybe you can buy such a copy on discogs, if a freelancer sells the promo copy he got.
  • Bong over 2 years ago

    mfkauz
    So all good the set up its own entry as a promo copy, if the release is explicitly labelled as a promo by handwriting.

    You forgot to quote the next part:
    "Retail releases with stamped, stickered, or similarly altered covers and / or media are to be considered the same as retail,"
    A handwritten "Promo" would be equal to stamped and thus not eligible for a separate release.
    The reason that the promo should be a separate release in this case is that it is lacking the number. I find it hard to tag it as "Numbered" when it got no number...
  • tony.lee over 2 years ago

    It seems most people on this thread agree the merge was not correct. Reason being that the record label intended these handwritten 'promos' as promotional copies, not as retail copies.
  • FromLondon over 2 years ago

    Bong
    "Retail releases with stamped, stickered, or similarly altered covers and / or media are to be considered the same as retail,"


    The promo is not a retail release, it's a promo release.
  • mfkauz over 2 years ago

    Handwritting is not equal to stamped etc i think. The stamp is done by the pressing plant, isn't it? The handwritting is done by the label or the artist. They'll send these marked copies out the the radio stations or freelancers or whomever, but never to a retailer. That's just my point of view. There are discussions over and over about such/similar questions. If Discogs wanna stop these discussions, the guidelines have to get more specific than now.
  • mfkauz over 2 years ago

    @ Bong: In this case you mentioned the promo copy is not tagged as numbered and the source of the entry (the contributor) is the record label
  • phallancz over 2 years ago

    mfkauz
    Handwritting is not equal to stamped etc i think. The stamp is done by the pressing plant, isn't it? The handwritting is done by the label or the artist.

    Does not matter who does it, the intention is the same to prevent that a retail copy that has been given away with the intent of promoting or whatever reason it was given by, from being sold in stores.

    FromLondon
    The promo is not a retail release, it's a promo release.

    It's a retail copy that has had minor alterations that can be done by whoever want to make such alteration, if a release is pressed and printed to be equal to a retail copy then it's a retail copy with some alterations, it was not manufactured with the purpose of being a promo copy.
  • TheTurtle over 2 years ago

    phallancz
    It's a retail copy that has had minor alterations that can be done by whoever want to make such alteration, if a release is pressed and printed to be equal to a retail copy then it's a retail copy with some alterations, it was not manufactured with the purpose of being a promo copy.

    But there is one alteration here, that could not be done by anybody: The lack of the numbering. You cannot take a retail-version and turn it into a promo by writing promo on it, because it would still be numbered.

    I don't think, that the fact that one has promo written on it makes it a unique release. But the fact, that it is not numbered, while the retail version is, that makes it unique in my eyes.
  • mfkauz over 2 years ago

    phallancz
    it was not manufactured with the purpose of being a promo copy.

    I think it was manufactured to be a promo copy. The label or artist had the intention to release a limited and numbered vinyl, maybe 300 copies, but there were manufactured maybe 320 copies with the clear intention to give away 20 copies as promo copies. These 20 copies were marked explilcitly as promo copies and did not find a way to a retailer. Sure, I could buy a regular copy a mark it as a promo. But I'm neither the label nor the artist or a reliable source as explained in the guidelines. My "stunt" wouldn't work.
  • 7_Sea_Cods over 2 years ago

    phallancz
    It's a retail copy that has had minor alterations that can be done by whoever want to make such alteration, if a release is pressed and printed to be equal to a retail copy then it's a retail copy with some alterations, it was not manufactured with the purpose of being a promo copy.


    Agreed, very clear in the guidelines.

    TheTurtle
    But the fact, that it is not numbered, while the retail version is, that makes it unique in my eyes.


    Hand-numbering is technically a post-manufacture alternation. It's fine to use the tag of course, but if there are not two specific versions marketed by the label (e.g. 500 hand-numbered copies, 1500 regular ones), I'd just consider a "small amount" (as is the case here) of unnumbered copies to be the same version. It's like a release with, say, hand-painted artwork. If the artist didn't paint the last couple copies, that wouldn't justify a separate entry, just a mention in the notes like "Some copies were never painted."

    In this case, I think it's fine to have "some copies weren't numbered / autographed and had 'promo' written on them" in the notes, as you would with a stamped or stickered copy.
  • FromLondon over 2 years ago

    mfkauz
    I think it was manufactured to be a promo copy.


    Exactly what I was about to say. Some promo (uniquely marked promo so could not be sold in shops), some retail.

    mfkauz
    The stamp is done by the pressing plant, isn't it?


    Probably unlikely. I think labels wanna do it cheap, send out 100 promos, so just get white labels done and stamp them themselves before the labelled copies are made and distributed. Often small punk bands made white labels and made sleeves (photocopies) and stamped them up themselves, Television Personalities - Where's Bill Grundy Now? for example.
  • FromLondon over 2 years ago

    7_Sea_Cods
    Hand-numbering is technically a post-manufacture alternation.


    But not a post release alteration.
  • tony.lee over 2 years ago

    In the first entry of this thread I quoted guideline 6.12.2.
    Its states that the promo tag can (should) only be used if it explicitly mentioned by the label or artist etc....

    In my case, and then the case later on in this thread, the artist and label are saying these were promotional copies. I don't understand why they shouldn't be considered unique?

    In both these cases there is strong evidence they were intended as, and are, promotional copies.
  • DetroitBootyBass over 2 years ago

    Post-manufacture alteration - the merge should go through.
  • 7_Sea_Cods over 2 years ago

    tony.lee
    In my case, and then the case later on in this thread, the artist and label are saying these were promotional copies. I don't understand why they shouldn't be considered unique?


    Re: unique release
    RSG §1.4.3 Items such as cut outs (where a normal release has a section of the sleeve cut, denoting a price cut item), items that have otherwise been marked or altered after manufacture, differences in releases with hand-made artwork that are part of the same edition, and individually numbered items on otherwise identical copies will not be allowed as unique releases. (emphasis added)

    This guideline doesn't apply under certain circumstances, such as a release marketed as having a hand-numbered version and unnumbered version. I don't think a case where there's a single numbered version and a few extra / leftover copies were used for promotional purposes is an exception to this guideline, though. RSG §6.12.2 is very clear that post-manufacture alterations are not considered unique.

    What you have to understand here is that a label may intend to use some copies to promote a release (and deface these copies by writing on, stamping, or stickering them), but those would not be considered unique releases. The label has to explicitly manufacture unique versions (e.g. with "Promo" printed on the release) to justify a separate entry. Otherwise it goes in the notes. This has been discussed many times in the Forums.
  • FromLondon over 2 years ago

    Guideline 6.12.2. Promo says: "Any item labelled as being released for promotional purposes, including advance copies sent out to promote a retail release. This tag should only be used where it is clear the item was released as such, for example it is explicitly mentioned on the release, or by the label, artist, or other reliable source."

    Re: unique release
    RSG §1.4.3 Items such as cut outs (where a normal release has a section of the sleeve cut, denoting a price cut item), items that have otherwise been marked or altered after manufacture, differences in releases with hand-made artwork that are part of the same edition, and individually numbered items on otherwise identical copies will not be allowed as unique releases.

    I take this to mean items that have otherwise been marked or altered after manufacture (not by the label).
    For example shops/distributors/public etc..
    If the label has marked it as a promo, it's a promo.

    But this makes the issue a little greyer:
    6.12.2. Promo :: Retail releases with stamped, stickered, or similarly altered covers and / or media are to be considered the same as retail, as should retail releases with cut spines, marked or cut barcodes, or other such defacement.

    So if it's written promo on release it's unique, if it's stamped promo on release it's not unique??....mmmmm.
  • avalon67 over 2 years ago

    [quote=DetroitBootyBass][/quote]
    Agree
  • Bong over 2 years ago

    7_Sea_Cods
    In this case, I think it's fine to have "some copies weren't numbered / autographed and had 'promo' written on them" in the notes, as you would with a stamped or stickered copy.

    The problem with this is that you are going to have a tag ("Numbered") that doesn't apply to a small batch of the records that the release represents.
    In the case of a release with stickers or stamps it can be considered a manufacturing variation, some copies were not stickered or stamped by mistake. But in this case a batch was not numbered for a purpose; to be distributed as promos.
  • 7_Sea_Cods over 2 years ago

    Bong
    The problem with this is that you are going to have a tag ("Numbered") that doesn't apply to a small batch of the records that the release represents.


    I don't think that's fundamentally different than having a retail version of a record represent the small batch that were stamped "promo," or having a stickered barcode added to a submission where you wouldn't know if your copy ever had the barcode once you removed the shrink-wrap.

    I admit it's somewhat of a borderline case, but IMO it's the type of variation we can simply document in release notes rather than by creating a new submission. It's just where I'd draw the line.
  • Diognes_The_Fox over 2 years ago

    Didn't we have a thread 'recently' about whether a numbered copy without a number written in was considered unique or not? I feel like we did.

    Would this also mean that plain white labels with "promo" written on them would be considered unique promo copies?
  • Bong over 2 years ago

    Diognes_The_Fox
    Would this also mean that plain white labels with "promo" written on them would be considered unique promo copies?

    That would be a different situation. Anyone can write "Promo" on a white label. With an edition of 300 or 500 numbered copies, we have to believe that they are sequentially numbered and that each has a unique number. Outside that edition there are copies without a number distributed as promos.
  • World_Wide_Wax over 2 years ago

    FromLondon
    Bong"Retail releases with stamped, stickered, or similarly altered covers and / or media are to be considered the same as retail,"

    The promo is not a retail release, it's a promo release.


    it's a promo-release, but not a promo-pressing!

    that is where discogs makes the difference. threads like this have come up regularly. i don't understand why you try to read between the lines, when you read paragraphs...
    it's quite obvious that the promo-tag nowadays is just a marketing aspect, the pressing stays the same!
  • tony.lee over 2 years ago

    I can understand why the guideline exists. It would be too easy for someone (anyone) to alter a retail edition by writing or (more difficult) stamping promo on the centre labels. However that's NOT the case here.
    In this case the record label hasn't the finances to print up different centre labels. They've done this on a budget.
    It's been confirmed by the record labels they were intended as promo copies. They are not retail versions that have been altered by someone at a later date. They are promotional items.
  • World_Wide_Wax over 2 years ago

    ^^so they used 1 and same pressing for retail and promo. Still 1 pressing...
  • World_Wide_Wax over 2 years ago

    https://www.discogs.com/Sessions-The-PM-Constellations-/release/4157326

    this release came with unique and handmade covers - none looks same. many of them have been given away for free as promos, too. i hold multiple copies because i love the sound and the artwork. Check it!

    all different pressings?

    btw. https://www.discogs.com/release/1160193

    this is from the same label. 1st 50 copies were signed by both artists, why is that one not a seperate submission? because it is not a seperate pressing...
    are we following idols or guidelines here?
  • Bong over 2 years ago

    World_Wide_Wax
    are we following idols or guidelines here?

    Have you read the whole thread?
    The difference is that the promos can't be tagged as "Numbered" since they're not numbered. To lump the numbered and unnumbered together in one release is wrong IMO.
  • anssisal over 2 years ago

    Bong
    The difference is that the promos can't be tagged as "Numbered" since they're not numbered. To lump the numbered and unnumbered together in one release is wrong IMO.

    I have to agree with this.

    For the "promo" version, I would probably add the format like so: Format: Vinyl, 12", 33 ⅓ RPM
    and explain the promo thing etc. in the release notes?
  • World_Wide_Wax over 2 years ago

    Bong
    To lump the numbered and unnumbered together in one release is wrong IMO.


    the unnumbered Promos should be mentioned in the notes of the submission for retails. there's nothing that makes this a seperate pressing. read the guidelines. discogs is pretty obvious about this and english isn't even my mothertongue. read my entire post and make the quote when it is mendatory to stay in line with the conversation, rather than quoting subclauses and mislead the conversation. i am not here since yesterday...
  • World_Wide_Wax over 2 years ago

    @ Bong: are you a Staff member or writing the guiodelines?

    No! so, you only have a openion that doesn't mean you're right!
  • World_Wide_Wax over 2 years ago

    @MusicNutter[/quote]

    [quote=MusicNutter]See

    https://www.discogs.com/help/doc/submission-guidelines-release-format
  • Bong over 2 years ago

    World_Wide_Wax
    the unnumbered Promos should be mentioned in the notes of the submission for retails. there's nothing that makes this a seperate pressing. read the guidelines.

    Why do you want to tag a release that isn't numbered as "Numbered"?
    The disc itself isn't a separate pressing but the fact that one is numbered and the other not makes them separate releases.

    World_Wide_Wax
    @ Bong: are you a Staff member or writing the guiodelines?

    No, but I can read and understand the guidelines.
    RSG §6.11.2
    If the release is a numbered edition eg "xxx of xxx copies", use the tag "Numbered" only, unless 6.11.1 also applies, in which case the tag 'Limited Edition' should also be used.

    The "Numbered" tag is for releases that are numbered. Those copies that aren't numbered gets a separate release.
  • tony.lee over 2 years ago

    World_Wide_Wax
    ^^so they used 1 and same pressing for retail and promo. Still 1 pressing...


    Isn't it frequently the same pressing? I mean I have hundreds of promo's in my collection that are identical audio wise to the retail version. They have the same runout etchings as the retail version. They are pressed from the same master. They are the same pressing with different centre labels.I don't understand your point?
  • World_Wide_Wax over 2 years ago

    Bong
    Why do you want to tag a release that isn't numbered as "Numbered"?
    The disc itself isn't a separate pressing but the fact that one is numbered and the other not makes them separate releases.


    how do i?

    it's a promo not a releaseon its own. we're talking about retail vs. promo not numbered vs. unnumbered. what if a promo gets numbered?
    does that justify to submit overrun copies?
    for me it is simply the same as a golden-promo stamp...
  • World_Wide_Wax over 2 years ago

    tony.lee
    They are the same pressing with different centre labels.I don't understand your point?


    how can they be the same pressing when they have a different center label? they're wls and or promo pressings.
  • Bong over 2 years ago

    Bong edited over 2 years ago
    World_Wide_Wax
    we're talking about retail vs. promo not numbered vs. unnumbered.

    ?????
    There's an edition of 500 copies that are numbered and then there's an edition of a few unnumbered copies. Of course we're talking about numbered vs unnumbered. That the ones that are unnumbered are marked 'Promo' are of less importance, although not unimportant.
  • anssisal over 2 years ago

    World_Wide_Wax
    we're talking about retail vs. promo

    No we're not, it just happens that the unnumbered ones are marked as promos, that doesn't change the fact that they aren't numbered.
  • World_Wide_Wax over 2 years ago

    Bong
    buddahs_recordswe're talking about retail vs. promo not numbered vs. unnumbered.
    ?????
    There's an edition of 500 copies that are numbered and then there's an edition of a few unnumbered copies. Of course we're talking about numbered vs unnumbered. That the ones marked 'Promo' are unnumbered are of less importance, although not unimportant.


    the numbered are the retail copies and the unnumbered ofcourse promos. read RSG § 6.11.2
  • Bong over 2 years ago

    I edited the post you quoted from since I threw around some words. Please discard and write a new reply.
  • velove over 2 years ago

    TheTurtle
    I don't think, that the fact that one has promo written on it makes it a unique release. But the fact, that it is not numbered, while the retail version is, that makes it unique in my eyes.

    this.

    "Numbered" for the release with promo written on it just isn't true/correct so they cannot be the same version.
  • FromLondon over 2 years ago

    velove
    "Numbered" for the release with promo written on it just isn't true/correct so they cannot be the same version.


    +1
  • tony.lee over 2 years ago

    I've said a number of times that the guideline states that the promo tag can be used if the artist or label says "explicitly" it is intended for promotional purposes.

    The label in both cases has said that these editions with promo written on them were intended for promotional purposes. Perhaps the guideline needs to be changed if that isn't the case??
  • velove over 2 years ago

    tony.lee
    The label in both cases has said that these editions with promo written on them were intended for promotional purposes.

    it loooks almost as if there was no word promo handwritten on it and the label said it's a promo, it would count as promo. But because there was a post manufacturing "promo" written on it, the labels opinion is disregarded ;)
  • anssisal over 2 years ago

    tony.lee
    I've said a number of times that the guideline states that the promo tag can be used if the artist or label says "explicitly" it is intended for promotional purpose

    I know, but there are thousands of handwritten/gold-stamped/stamped/stickered promo releases that are 100% "intended for promotional purpose". But they wouldn't be marked as such in here.
  • tony.lee over 2 years ago

    anssisal
    I know, but there are thousands of handwritten/gold-stamped/stamped/stickered promo releases that are 100% "intended for promotional purpose"


    I've been thinking about those ;) I have a feeling discogs management is trying to make things easier. I see their point, reasoning, and I would agree if there is no confirming 100% proof. Still when a label says it's a promo surely it must be classed as a promo?

    velove
    But because there was a post manufacturing "promo" written on it, the labels opinion is disregarded ;)


    Haha. That's just comical ;)
  • World_Wide_Wax over 2 years ago

    tony.lee
    Haha. That's just comical ;)


    i don't think it is comical. i understand that the postmanufacturing promo-tag makes a difference for the label, but that is not what the guidelines in discogs care about. the product is still the same. there's thousand of releases with a sticker of record-pools (with & / without promo-tags) but they're still 1 and same pressing as the retail.
    when a certain amount of items gets signed by the artist, it is something special, but it is not a different product according to the guidelines.

    what we talk about here is on which way did a release come into peoples crates and how it got beautified, not about different pressings.

    https://www.discogs.com/Sessions-The-PM-Constellations-/release/4157326

    this release came with unique and handmade covers - none looks same. many of them have been given away for free as promos, too. i hold multiple copies because i love the sound and the artwork. Check it!

    all different pressings?

    to me the guidelines are obvious...
  • World_Wide_Wax over 2 years ago

    anssisal
    buddahs_recordswe're talking about retail vs. promo
    No we're not, it just happens that the unnumbered ones are marked as promos, that doesn't change the fact that they aren't numbered.


    and it doesn't change the fact they're all 1 and same pressing ;)
  • Bong over 2 years ago

    Bong edited over 2 years ago
    World_Wide_Wax
    and it doesn't change the fact they're all 1 and same pressing ;)

    There are thousands of records in the database that are the same pressing but still are considered different releases because other details generate different tags.
    Here's an example:
    The KLF - Kylie Said To Jason: without poster.
    The KLF - Kylie Said To Jason: with poster.
  • Bong over 2 years ago

    The discussion has continued over at https://www.discogs.com/release/6191393-RetroMastas/history#latest but we agreed that it's better to continue here. So here goes:

    World_Wide_Wax
    this obviousely is marked as promo. i say it's both same that is why i started the merge request.

    You have been told again and again that this isn't about the 'Promo' tag. The 'Promo' tag can be removed and they would still be different because one release has the 'Numbered' tag and the other not.
  • World_Wide_Wax over 2 years ago

    Bong
    The KLF - Kylie Said To Jason: without poster.
    The KLF - Kylie Said To Jason: with poster.


    the difference is on the cover.

    that is the same case as this:

    https://www.discogs.com/Apollo-Brown-Guilty-Simpson-Dice-Game/release/4162569 (with 7")
    https://www.discogs.com/Apollo-Brown-Guilty-Simpson-Dice-Game/release/4171028 (without)

    are you making the difference by inked release or without ink?

    to me a handwriting on cover is a writing on cover and therefore not a different release.
  • World_Wide_Wax over 2 years ago

    Bong
    You have been told again and again


    please, everybody is able to tell. not everybody is right. just because you found people that think your way doesn't mean you're stucking to guidelines...
  • World_Wide_Wax over 2 years ago

    World_Wide_Wax edited over 2 years ago
    Bong
    The 'Promo' tag can be removed and they would still be different because one release has the 'Numbered' tag and the other not.


    and that is where you decide on your own and not by sticking to the guidelines. just because someone changed the product post manufacture the product is still the same. see RSG 6.11.2
  • velove over 2 years ago

    World_Wide_Wax
    . just because someone has change the product post manufacture the product is still the same. see RSG 6.11.2

    but aren't you saying that all releases that are numbered post manufacture are identical to their retail version?
    seem you are saying exactly that.
  • Bong over 2 years ago

    World_Wide_Wax
    and that is where you decide on your own and not by sticking to the guidelines. just because someone has change the product post manufacture the product is still the same. see RSG 6.11.2

    This is what RSG §6.11.2 says: "If the release is a numbered edition eg "xxx of xxx copies", use the tag "Numbered" only, unless 6.11.1 also applies, in which case the tag 'Limited Edition' should also be used."

    It doesn't deal with post manufacture alterations. That guideline tells us to use the 'Numbered' tag when a release is numbered. And then it tells us to not use the 'Limited Edition' tag unless 6.11.1 also applies.

    And we can't tag the unnumbered copies as 'Numbered' so they get a separate release.
  • World_Wide_Wax over 2 years ago

    velove
    buddahs_records. just because someone has change the product post manufacture the product is still the same. see RSG 6.11.2
    but aren't you saying that all releases that are numbered post manufacture are identical to their retail version?
    seem you are saying exactly that.


    we're talking about a retail version that is numbered. if there's a unnumbered retail version, the difference is about the numbering. if there's a unnumbered retail version with a bonus (7", poster, sticker, dildo) than the difference is in the extra.

    release 6191393

    the case here is that all versions have ink on them. ones with numbers, others with promo written. there's no difference technicaly (extra songs, different trackorder, labelcolor or promo texture), but only what is written on them.

    why is release https://www.discogs.com/Kool-Keith-Sex-Style-The-Unreleased-Archives/release/1160193
    only submitted ones when the first 50 came with the additional signature of Kool Keith?
    because it's against guidelines.
  • World_Wide_Wax over 2 years ago

    Bong
    And we can't tag the unnumbered copies as 'Numbered' so they get a separate release.


    wrong, they get mentioned in the notes.
  • FromLondon over 2 years ago

    I think everyone has made their points. There seems to be 2 sides, for and against.

    Probably best to make a support request and let Discogs staff decide what happens here.

    Regards, FL
  • 0bleak over 2 years ago

    World_Wide_Wax
    only submitted ones when the first 50 came with the additional signature of Kool Keith?
    because it's against guidelines.


    That's not a good comparison because we don't add Signed to the format.
  • 0bleak over 2 years ago

    World_Wide_Wax
    only submitted ones when the first 50 came with the additional signature of Kool Keith?
    because it's against guidelines.


    That's not a good comparison because we don't add Signed to the format.
    That submission also has some format issues, by the way - you haven't noticed?
  • velove over 2 years ago

    World_Wide_Wax
    wrong, they get mentioned in the notes.

    are you saying that when there is a retail version not numbered. and a versioned number that we only create the numbered version and add a note that there is also a retail version that is not numbered?
    so I can sell my non numbered version as numbered?

    FromLondon
    I think everyone has made their points. There seems to be 2 sides, for and against.

    I think buddah has to back up his claims with guidelines. there are questions he hasn't answered.
  • World_Wide_Wax over 2 years ago

    FromLondon
    I think everyone has made their points. There seems to be 2 sides, for and against.

    Probably best to make a support request and let Discogs staff decide what happens here.

    Regards, FL


    did that this morning, would like a clear guideline on this topic.

    0bleak
    buddahs_recordsonly submitted ones when the first 50 came with the additional signature of Kool Keith?
    because it's against guidelines.

    That's not a good comparison because we don't add Signed to the format.


    it is a good comparison because the difference is made by the ink. that is what we argue about here:

    release 6191393

    seems like people came to the conclusion that the postmanufactured promo-tag submission is same as a (inked) retail copy. when we talked about promo vs. retail, i was said the difference is numbered vs. unnumbered. that means the difference is made by postmanufaturing add-ons. that leads to allowing every number of a release to get submited on it's on when it is one and same pressing.
  • World_Wide_Wax over 2 years ago

    velove
    are you saying that when there is a retail version not numbered. and a versioned number that we only create the numbered version and add a note that there is also a retail version that is not numbered?
    so I can sell my non numbered version as numbered?


    basicaly yes. how you sell is a different topic and not relevant for the db. we have submissions like this:

    https://www.discogs.com/Various-Street-Sounds-Hip-Hop-Electro-15/release/26099

    where you have a bonus 7" that can't be submitted on it's own because it is against the guidelines, so people sell the 7" version only. what's so difficult in writing unnumbered in the comment field?
    the record we talk about in https://www.discogs.com/release/6191393-RetroMastas/history#latest was only available as labeled version (numbered & unnumbered). if there's going to be a new future pressing than it is up to what it comes like. but the 2 ways we have now, are obviousely postmanufactured add-ons see RSG 6.12.2:

    Retail releases with stamped, stickered, or similarly altered covers and / or media are to be considered the same as retail, as should retail releases with cut spines, marked or cut barcodes, or other such defacement. Additionally, retail releases that include 'one-sheet' promotional press-release or feedback type pages are not to be considered different than the retail version
  • World_Wide_Wax over 2 years ago

    velove
    I think buddah has to back up his claims with guidelines. there are questions he hasn't answered


    like what?
  • velove over 2 years ago

    World_Wide_Wax
    that leads to allowing every number of a release to get submited on it's on when it is one and same pressing.

    no. that's ridiculous and nobody has said so.

    the point bong is making is that
    numbered --> numbered in format can be used.
    not numbered --> you cannot use a format that is not correct and just say in the notes that it doesn't apply.

    There is no format "postmanufactured change" which would apply to both handnumbered and hand promoed items.

    bong:
    a) version not numbered. (it has the word promo on it, but that doesn't even matter).
    b) version numbered.

    buddah:
    There exists only a numbered version.
    c) the numbrered version with a number
    d) the numbered version that has the word Promo written instead of a number.

    To me it really feels odd to consider d) to be correct. I've always assumed that each release needs to be able to stand on it's own and be correct on it's own.
    In this case if only the release with "Promo" written on it exists, adding numbered as format would be completely wrong. I assume everyone will agree with me on this.

    Now the fact that there is also a numbered format suddenly changes the format tags which are valid for another release. Is that really correct? Are there other examples in the db where such a things happens? Curious, maybe I just haven't come across them yet.
  • World_Wide_Wax over 2 years ago

    velove
    no. that's ridiculous and nobody has said so.


    yes exact that. it is rediculous.

    velove

    c) the numbrered version with a number
    d) the numbered version that has the word Promo written instead of a number.


    maybe labeled (if that means the postmanufactured adds) is more precise here instzead of numbered per-se, but you got my point.

    -->means: same treatment as golden-promo stamp versions.

    Let me say that i only want to know how to submit releases here. the nowadays exclusiveness sucks when it comes to submitting here. it is all made for promoting and marketing aspects. it's not about different pressings of a release...
  • Diognes_The_Fox over 2 years ago

    I don't feel comfortable saying it's the same release, because it's an unnumbered copy out of a specific set.
    I don't feel comfortable saying it's different because it's the exact same record with the exact same stamp except promo was written in the spot where a number could have been.

    So, there's two ways to look at this:
    A) Separate subs for different hand-applied writing on labels.
    B) Un-numbered releases in a numbered release submission.

    At this point, I think we should just flip a coin because both options are not great no matter what.
  • Diognes_The_Fox over 2 years ago

    I vote for same submission. Treat "promo" as a number if it's written in the spot where a number should be written.
  • World_Wide_Wax over 2 years ago

    that is the only way to justify merges of promo-stamped retail versions. Otherwise those won't make any sence...
  • FromLondon over 2 years ago

    Diognes_The_Fox
    At this point, I think we should just flip a coin because both options are not great no matter what.


    Check the coin again...it was heads! ;)
  • 0bleak over 2 years ago

    Should the promos on this label https://www.discogs.com/label/490845-Special-Weapons be merged with the regular copies?
    I mean, this is even more of an edge case because both the promos and the regular copies are hand-numbered, and only difference between them is the kind of hand-numbering.
  • Bong over 2 years ago

  • Diognes_The_Fox over 2 years ago

    If the only difference between the two releases is what was hand-written in the space where the number would go, I don't think they're valid.

    Suppose someone got a lot of 100 records pressed with identical labels that have a spot for a number on them:

    20 are numbered 1-20
    20 are marked promo
    20 are marked with letters
    20 have a pineapple stamped on them
    20 are left blank.

    Would those be considered unique submissions?
  • velove over 2 years ago

    Diognes_The_Fox
    with identical labels that have a spot for a number on them:

    if they have a special place for the number, e,g, boxed or with text that makes it clear that it is for numbering, then they would all be the same release.

    If there is no special spot for numbering. e.g, no printed artwork for numbering then:

    Diognes_The_Fox
    20 are numbered 1-20

    numbered

    Diognes_The_Fox
    20 are marked promo
    20 are marked with letters
    20 have a pineapple stamped on them
    20 are left blank.

    regular release. not numbered.

    numbered by definition means numbered. not "post manufacturing marking"
  • Bong over 2 years ago

    velove
    numbered by definition means numbered. not "post manufacturing marking"

    +1

    If not then we might as well get rid of the 'Numbered' tag.

    Diognes_The_Fox
    If the only difference between the two releases is what was hand-written in the space where the number would go, I don't think they're valid.

    Would it make a difference if it was hand stamped (like in my example three posts up), or machine stamped/printed?
  • velove over 2 years ago

    Bong
    /printed?

    differences in printed artwork --> unique releases
  • World_Wide_Wax over 2 years ago

    @ acraphae & Bong:

    How about this situation: You have a release of 500, all have a unique artwork and are unnumbered. are they all one and same?

    Bong
    How about these two, merge or not?
    https://www.discogs.com/release/1276163
    https://www.discogs.com/release/5034720


    yes, why not?
    if i take a rubber and rub away the number, will it become a new version?

    sorry for the sarcasm.
  • Bong over 2 years ago

    World_Wide_Wax
    How about this situation: You have a release of 500, all have a unique artwork and are unnumbered. are they all one and same?

    Yes, they are. That is established since long ago. There's no sense in having 500 different entries for such a variation. Just like there is no sense in having 500 different entries for a numbered edition because the number is different on each copy. I have no idea why you bring this up. That's never been up for discussion.
    If there's a numbered edition of 500 and an otherwise identical edition without numbers, now that's a totally different story.

    World_Wide_Wax
    if i take a rubber and rub away the number, will it become a new version?

    Quite possibly. Just like if you throw away the slipcase from Some Girls Wander By Mistake, you will get another release, Some Girls Wander By Mistake
  • velove over 2 years ago

    Bong
    Quite possibly. Just like if you throw away the slipcase from Some Girls Wander By Mistake, you will get another release, Some Girls Wander By Mistake

    The reply in my head was exactly like that :)
  • World_Wide_Wax over 2 years ago

    Bong
    I have no idea why you bring this up. That's never been up for discussion.


    i'm trying to understand your point of view, don't mean to open a new topic.
    Bong
    Quite possibly. Just like if you throw away the slipcase from Some Girls Wander By Mistake, you will get another release, Some Girls Wander By Mistake


    so where is the difference and why does the unnumbered DM have to stay?

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