• Bong over 2 years ago

    World_Wide_Wax
    so where is the difference and why does the unnumbered DM have to stay?

    I think it is of importance to collectors. As a collector I might want to have both the release with a number and the one without.

    There's also the marketplace angle. I believe enough people looking to buy such a release will want to have either the numbered edition or the one without number. They shouldn't have to rely on the sellers writing in the comments if it's numbered or not. I know that many sellers won't bother.

    One might argue that if they both are contained in one release I might still add two copies to my collection and use the "In Collection - notes" function to keep track of them. But I think this is a big enough difference to have separate releases. Hell, we even create separate releases if a CD's got a mould SID code or not. And those are sometimes almost impossible to see.
  • tony.lee over 2 years ago

    Diognes_The_Fox
    Would those be considered unique submissions?


    But what about in my case that opened this thread where the label is saying these are intended as promotional copies? What about the guideline that says if a label explicitly states they are promos we should treat them as such?
  • Diognes_The_Fox over 2 years ago

    tony.lee
    But what about in my case that opened this thread where the label is saying these are intended as promotional copies? What about the guideline that says if a label explicitly states they are promos we should treat them as such?


    That's a fair point. I think the guidelines are in conflict as how to properly handle this release.

    Looking beyond the guidelines for a moment, does this release's presence in the DB ultimately help or hurt?

    Will allowing or not allowing this result in a notable amount of submissions needing to be merged? Will it result in many more submissions needing to be added? What's the scope of this problem?
  • tony.lee over 2 years ago

    Diognes_The_Fox
    I think the guidelines are in conflict as how to properly handle this release.

    Yes, this release and a number of others.

    Diognes_The_Fox
    does this release's presence in the DB ultimately help or hurt?

    I don't Think it hurts. I feel that collectors, enthusiasts, crazies, will always appreciate this kind of release being treated uniquely.

    Diognes_The_Fox
    What's the scope of this problem?

    Problem is a word that sprang to mind. The guidelines are quite clear but they need to be clearer. The part about labels/artists veryifying this kind of release being intended for promotion has to be made prominant and an absolute, no exceptions. Otherwise there will be a large amount of releases being entered that are possibly not intended for promotional use. I personally feel that all items, handwritten, stamped, etc. that can be verified should be included.
  • avalon67 over 2 years ago

    I may have missed it, but where is the all important source which states that there were xxx handwritten 'Promo' copies?

    Again, what is the difference between this and the one that John Doe bought at Tower Records, apart from some handwriting?
  • Bong over 2 years ago

    avalon67
    I may have missed it, but where is the all important source which states that there were xxx handwritten 'Promo' copies?

    On Retrogott / Kutmasta Kurt* - Retromastas it's the label owner who submitted it. They would know.

    avalon67
    Again, what is the difference between this and the one that John Doe bought at Tower Records, apart from some handwriting?

    The difference is that it isn't numbered.
  • tony.lee over 2 years ago

    avalon67
    I may have missed it, but where is the all important source which states that there were xxx handwritten 'Promo' copies?

    On the record that I opened this thread with the artist has stated to me personally that a certain amount were marked and intended for promotional use. He believed it was around 20 copies but couldn't confirm the exact number. I believe it was discoger oneseven that suggested there were 20 copies?

    Whatever the case these promo copies should be allowed going by current guidelines. Change the guidelines to exclude the part about the promo tag should be used if the artist or label states they intended as such and then I'll except they are not valid entries.

    Just want to add I'm not some pain in the arse that will push a point no matter what. I personally feel quite passionate about these small differences. I've not pushed the point previously where there is no evidence but in this case there is evidence and it seems a crucial part of the guidelines is being overlooked.
  • anssisal over 2 years ago

    Diognes_The_Fox
    What's the scope of this problem?

    IMO that whole "intended by the label" part is pretty bad. I mean, aren't all gold stamped, stamped, stickered or handwritten "promo releases" intended to be promo copies by the label?
  • World_Wide_Wax over 2 years ago

    anssisal
    IMO that whole "intended by the label" part is pretty bad. I mean, aren't all gold stamped, stamped, stickered or handwritten "promo releases" intended to be promo copies by the label?


    ^^ exactly this!
    And, that we can not ask all labels what was their intention to do that stamping/writing...
  • MJG196 over 2 years ago

    avalon67
    They were all equal when they left the factory


    +1
  • World_Wide_Wax over 2 years ago

    MJG196
    avalon67They were all equal when they left the factory

    +1


    +2
  • Diognes_The_Fox over 2 years ago

    World_Wide_Wax
    ^^ exactly this!
    And, that we can not ask all labels what was their intention to do that stamping/writing...


    Yeah. I agree.

    Numbered should be used where the factory printed a space for an item to be numbered. What gets written in that slot is IMO, irrelevant.
  • tony.lee over 2 years ago

    tony.lee edited over 2 years ago
    I don't really know what that "they were all equal when they left the factory" means? To me it just sounds like an attractive turn of phrase. That some were intended at the production phase as promotional copies to me means that they were destined to be something else. This must have some bearing?

    World_Wide_Wax
    And, that we can not ask all labels what was their intention to do that stamping/writing

    I would totally agree. Especially as many labels are no longer in existentance and anyways this would be an impossibility. Still when a label states that there were a certain number intended for promotional reasons, and states that these were marked as 'promo' by hand instead of being numbered, surely in these cases they can be regarded as unique editions?
  • World_Wide_Wax over 2 years ago

    tony.lee
    Still when a label states that there were a certain number intended for promotional reasons, and states that these were marked as 'promo' by hand instead of being numbered, surely in these cases they can be regarded as unique editions?


    that does not make much sence. the promo-stamped releases gets treated as retail versions, but if a label says it was meant to be a promo, it immediately gets a promo? please read the arguments on the 1st page when users tried to justify their position by claiming that we talk about numbered vs. unnumbered. Now, are we talking about promo vs. retail, or both?
    i have press up a album last year and i wittnessed many releases of friends. i think it is no secret that the labels receive overrun copies, and that is what nowadays gets PROMOTED as promo-releases, but is still one and same pressing. What if i loose my cover, do i have a promo-copy than? This discussion does not make much sence anymore, especially because the guidelines change all the time and we have collectors here that believe they have something special, because they have receive a retail copy as a promo, or even paid for it. TBH i would even allow signed releases to be treated as a unique release, but that is not the §§§s.
    All i know, is treating such releases as unique submission, will only give a way to repress releases number them as promo and act like it is still limited to amount X.
    Ever gave a thought why we even merge different runs of certain releases? they have even different run-outs!
  • tony.lee over 2 years ago

    World_Wide_Wax
    please read the arguments on the 1st page

    I started this thread with a specific question about a specific release. Guideline states if an artist or label states the record is intended for promotional purposes we are to treat them as such. Hand writing, numbered, printed, even no difference, if a label says it's so, it's so.
    World_Wide_Wax
    What if i loose my cover, do i have a promo-copy than?

    Off course not. What kind of point are you trying to make?
    World_Wide_Wax
    Ever gave a thought why we even merge different runs of certain releases? they have even different run-outs!

    I've never needed to think of it because the guidelines cover that and records with runout variations are fulfilling the same role. It's got nothing to do with my question that started this thread.
    World_Wide_Wax
    That does not make much sence. the promo-stamped releases gets treated as retail versions, but if a label says it was meant to be a promo, it immediately gets a promo?

    I'm not arguing if it makes sense or not. I'm just going by what is said in the guidelines. It seems like this thread is becoming more to do with if the guidelines are ridiculous or not? Because surely no one can argue that the record I opened this thread with is a unique release, going by current guidelines?

    I would suggest a change in the guidelines if these releases are not going to be treated differently.

    Diognes_The_Fox. Are you able to change the guidelines to exclude the bit about what a label or artist intends a release to be. How this should be obsolete and have no bearing on how we handle a release?
  • World_Wide_Wax over 2 years ago

    tony.lee
    I started this thread with a specific question about a specific release. Guideline states if an artist or label states the record is intended for promotional purposes we are to treat them as such. Hand writing, numbered, printed, even no difference, if a label says it's so, it's so.


    yes and no! if it is stamped it is a NO and yours was merged, so a handnumbered promo is a retail version too.

    we both actually talk about the same problem. although you started this threat there're many alike releases as the one you pointed out.
  • World_Wide_Wax over 2 years ago

    tony.lee
    Off course not. What kind of point are you trying to make?


    well, the release is numbered on the cover and i loose my cover. what point am i making???
  • World_Wide_Wax over 2 years ago

    World_Wide_Wax
    acraphaeI think buddah has to back up his claims with guidelines. there are questions he hasn't answered

    like what?


    I see you're just a loudmouth trying to find attraction. How many times have you see me participating non-sence forum talks? i prefer not to waste my time here and study the guidelines rather than discussing with members in the forums and come to no conclusion. People like you are the reason for me to stay away. How stupid is your phrase? and than no responce? do you post such phrases without being prepared to have examples?

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