• Diognes_The_Fox about 1 year ago

    Diognes_The_Fox edited about 1 year ago
    This aught to be fun.

    Here's a link to a handy and informative graph.

    The graph above represents active submissions added, by year, where the release date is after 1970 and the submission is also not in a master release that also contains a mono version. This boils down to a little less than 180,000 submissions total.

    After discussing this with Nik, we feel probably the best option is to alter the guidelines to, essentially, de-criminalize usage of stereo on submissions after 1970.
    Personally, as a contributor, I'm tired of needing to fix those submissions as I go along and I'm sure many of you are too. The tag is not factually incorrect, just somewhat obvious information that's not really necessary. I think it's somewhat intuitive to add stereo when it's printed on the release if you are a newer contributor as well.

    So, I would like to open this up to comments and maybe move forward with using this as a test thread for the forum guidelines I've been working on recently.
  • cheebacheebakid about 1 year ago

    Diognes_The_Fox
    The tag is not factually incorrect
    This is why it's never bothered me personally- and we would also not need to remove Stereo tag strictly for guideline adherence just to avoid an NiMC on other edits - though it should be added only if on release.

    Diognes_The_Fox
    I think it's somewhat intuitive to add stereo when it's printed on the release if you are a newer contributor as well.
    Especially with the "as on release" mantra seen so often in forums.

    Easy fix if this goes through:
    6.13. The 'Stereo' tag shouldn't be used unless mentioned on release.
  • hafler3o about 1 year ago

    Black vinyl is not wrong either ;) Might as well do both at the same time.

    Stereo is useful ony in the context of mono versions. I'm against the idea of moving the guidelines to cater for those who don't bother to read them anyway. Why not do away with all guidelines, nothing would need fixing or be wrong then.

    Count me as a big -1 on this proposal.
  • hafler3o about 1 year ago

    hafler3o edited about 1 year ago
    cheebacheebakid

    6.13. The 'Stereo' tag shouldn't be used unless mentioned on release.


    Isn't it already established the Stereo tag is being used incorrectly? Ergo, the guideline is not being read, thus the changing of a guideline to follow a looser interpretation only makes checking the data more difficult, especially if there are no images. Put some of the onus back onto submitters please, rather than the checkers.
  • Silvermo about 1 year ago

    I think it is a good idea to alow the Stereo tag to be used on releases after 1970 IF it is noted om the release. There might even be some instances where this is the destingushibg factor, mentioned on one version, not another (i have not seen this, but there might be)

    I also think we should be able to use the 33 1/3 tag on LPs IF it is noted on the release.

    The more information from the release (written on the release) the better, in my oppinion.
    Maybe there should be a warning when using these tags in combination eith post 1970 (or blank) release date/LP format. Something like "only use this tag if written on release"
  • 6006 about 1 year ago

    Any idea why there's the dramatic increase of subs using the stereo tag since 2014?
  • mrformic about 1 year ago

    If "Stereo" is mentioned on release, then its formally correct to add it to notes - but its forbidden to use the respective tickbox when no mono version is subbed. That hardly makes any sense :)
    Count me in to allow "Stereo" tickbox when mentioned on release. It doesn't help much, but it doesn't hurt.
  • cheebacheebakid about 1 year ago

    hafler3o
    Black vinyl is not wrong either
    It's also not a choice with a radio button on every entry.

    hafler3o
    Stereo is useful ony in the context of mono versions.
    And Mono is only useful in the context of Stereo yet we have no guideline that Mono should not be used pre-1934 despite it being superfluous before then.

    Silvermo
    The more information from the release (written on the release) the better, in my oppinion.
    Mine too.

    6006
    Any idea why there's the dramatic increase of subs using the stereo tag since 2014?
    Likely an increase in rate of new members joining.
  • LoggintheLog about 1 year ago

    6006
    Any idea why there's the dramatic increase of subs using the stereo tag since 2014?

    I think it's only relatively recently been added as a tick box option, last couple of years. That probably accounts for most of the increase.
  • MarbleheadJohnson about 1 year ago

    cheebacheebakid
    Easy fix if this goes through:
    6.13. The 'Stereo' tag shouldn't be used unless mentioned on release.


    This makes total sense to me.
  • Earjerk about 1 year ago

    Diognes_The_Fox
    the best option is to alter the guidelines to, essentially, de-criminalize usage of stereo on submissions after 1970.


    It's what I (and numerous others) have always advocated.
    Unless you like more stuff to correct, how could you disapprove?

    PLuuuuuuuuuuuuuus one!
    (+1)
  • MusicNutter about 1 year ago

    MusicNutter edited about 1 year ago
    MarbleheadJohnson
    cheebacheebakidEasy fix if this goes through:
    6.13. The 'Stereo' tag shouldn't be used unless mentioned on release.

    This makes total sense to me.


    Not to me. a 2010 release may have stereo printed on release. Do we tag Stereo because its printed? No

    My guidelines

    Stereo shouldn't be tagged unless there is a Mono version of the same release. For the tag to be used, it can be added to release if its

    (a) printed on the release
    (b) Tagged as such by the artist or label
    and (c) printed on a fansite. For this to be used you need to find reputable sources such as a label site, artist website even ones thats archived.

    Change what you want
  • mrformic about 1 year ago

    MusicNutter
    Stereo shouldn't be tagged unless there is a Mono version of the same release.


    and if the mono version isn't subbed yet/unknown ?
  • MarbleheadJohnson about 1 year ago

    MusicNutter
    Stereo shouldn't be tagged unless there is a Mono version of the same release.


    To me, it makes little sense to expect users to know this. We encourage people to only include info on the release itself, but not in certain cases? I've never liked the way we do the "stereo/mono" input, even before I worked here.
  • beautman about 1 year ago

    Agree with the proposal. Removing unnecessary but correct information shouldn't occupy people's time and effort. Same with not allowing mono tag for pre-stereo releases. There can be a point where ever-increasing rules, an ever-steepening learning-curve, and resulting criticisms of people for violations of it discourages submissions and user interest.
  • MarbleheadJohnson about 1 year ago

    beautman
    Removing unnecessary but correct information shouldn't occupy people's time and effort.


    Agreed.
  • nerdfly about 1 year ago

  • SeRKeT about 1 year ago

    cheebacheebakid
    6.13. The 'Stereo' tag shouldn't be used unless mentioned on release.


    +1 from me for that, unless someone has the time to fix
    Diognes_The_Fox
    a little less than 180,000 submissions
  • DarreLP about 1 year ago

    System/UI wise...could we simply disable the 'stereo' tag on releases post 1970? That would still leave mono as the exception.

    Alternative suggestion...there simply wouldn't be a 'stereo' option at all unless the master release as a child record that also has 'mono' selected (I realize that would be a much more complex 'fix'.)
  • ChampionJames about 1 year ago

    hafler3o
    Stereo is useful ony in the context of mono versions.


    I agree in general, but there are exceptions. One that comes immediately to mind are lathe cuts. The majority of lathe cuts are mono. But some higher-end lathe cuts in true stereo have been appearing in recent years, of an audio quality comparable to pressed vinyl. Clearly, they are not issued in both mono and stereo, just stereo. But the tag is worth adding, I would argue, because it overrides a default condition.
  • Clogwhistle about 1 year ago

  • Gundozer about 1 year ago

    wow---this will be hard to un-learn.
    is it possible to send out a mass mail to all submitters /users if this "suddenly" is changed, since many of those got voted on and told /learned to remove stereo over the years might never read the guidelines or forum and will be VERY confused if this "Suddenly" got changed.

    I think it is OK, but I guess then we could change some other stuff -if this is the logic of making things easy and less wrong or what the term was up above.
  • perlator about 1 year ago

    Diognes_The_Fox
    de-criminalize usage of stereo on submissions after 1970.

    I'm all in favour of that. See various opinions in https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/401740 , if you haven't yet. The simplest thing to do would be to just remove the entire RSG §6.13.
  • hafler3o about 1 year ago

    perlator
    ... The simplest thing to do would be to just remove the entire RSG §6.13.


    Yes, please let's be able to enter stereo if it is stereo. Not if art say 'stereo'. Many downloads contain only a cover so won't be taggable, a ludicrous situation. Plus I don't want to be left checking uncheckable stuff because the pics aren't there.
  • bobbley about 1 year ago

    SeRKeT
    unless someone has the time to fix
    Diognes_The_Fox

    a little less than 180,000 submissions

    I'm betting there will be someone who'll want to add 'stereo' to all the ones that currently haven't got it, just to get brownie points...

    hafler3o
    I'm against the idea of moving the guidelines to cater for those who don't bother to read them anyway

    My point of view also.

    Surely it would be easier to restrict selecting the tag:
    Can't a simple switch be added to it's selection being dependant on the year entered, or restrict it to only use with vinyl formats?
  • 0bleak about 1 year ago

    so... instead of adding something that has been requested numerous times and met with deafening silence, a warning checkbox to the submission form, we're going with ignoring and/or changing the guidelines instead?!

    also want to +1 hafler3o

    hafler3o
    I'm against the idea of moving the guidelines to cater for those who don't bother to read them anyway. Why not do away with all guidelines, nothing would need fixing or be wrong then.

    Count me as a big -1 on this proposal.


    hafler3o
    Isn't it already established the Stereo tag is being used incorrectly? Ergo, the guideline is not being read, thus the changing of a guideline to follow a looser interpretation only makes checking the data more difficult, especially if there are no images. Put some of the onus back onto submitters please, rather than the checkers.
  • DetroitBootyBass about 1 year ago

    -1 from me as well.

    The problem mainly stems from the change to the submission form a few years ago (the check-boxes) and submitters that don't read the guidelines. A guideline change that would allow the stereo tag if it is printed on the release artwork is just swapping one unread guideline for another - the same lazy submitters will still incorrectly add the tag.
  • Paul_Eye about 1 year ago

    So, obviously this applies to vinyls only? Tagging a CD (or cassette or minidisc for that matter) as stereo is still incorrect as those formats don't even come in mono, right? File based releases are almost exclusively stereo (so the tag shouldn't be applied) and the few mono file releases (not that I've even seen any yet) can have the mono tag applied as it's quite nonstandard?
  • Silvermo about 1 year ago

    Paul_Eye
    So, obviously this applies to vinyls only? Tagging a CD (or cassette or minidisc for that matter) as stereo is still incorrect as those formats don't even come in mono, right? File based releases are almost exclusively stereo (so the tag shouldn't be applied) and the few mono file releases (not that I've even seen any yet) can have the mono tag applied as it's quite nonstandard?


    Cassettes can come in mono, CDs aswell
  • hafler3o about 1 year ago

    DetroitBootyBass
    -1 from me as well.

    The problem mainly stems from the change to the submission form a few years ago (the check-boxes) and submitters that don't read the guidelines...

    1) Followed by a graph showing effect of changing the form.
    2) No effort made to adapt the form despite warnings / suggestions (2 years)
    3) Coding solution deemed more expensive than changing guidelines. (no-brainer)
    4) "Aren't we all tired of fixing stuff.." pitch applied. (as if those subs don't require other attention!)
    5) decriminalise, intuitive, etc, etc, (neutral language avoided)

    This is not about us deciding as a community, it is a precursor to a pre-ordained decision. So think 'stereo' to avoid a bitter taste in your morning cornflakes!
  • beautman about 1 year ago

    Silvermo
    Cassettes can come in mono, CDs as well

    But not 8-tracks.
  • ChampionJames about 1 year ago

    Silvermo
    Cassettes can come in mono, CDs aswell


    +1. Anything recorded in mono will then be heard in mono regardless of the audio carrier format, unless it is adulterated by pseudo-stereo processing. Cassettes and CDs with stereo channeling will simply use an identical mono signal for each channel.
  • ChampionJames about 1 year ago

    hafler3o
    1) Followed by a graph showing effect of changing the form.
    2) No effort made to adapt the form despite warnings / suggestions (2 years)
    3) Coding solution deemed more expensive than changing guidelines. (no-brainer)
    4) "Aren't we all tired of fixing stuff.." pitch applied. (as if those subs don't require other attention!)
    5) decriminalise, intuitive, etc, etc, (neutral language avoided)


    Indeed. Eviltoastman for one spent a lot of energy trying to get staff attention to this issue at an early enough moment that it actually could have stood a chance of being reversed.
  • mjb about 1 year ago

    mjb edited about 1 year ago
    DetroitBootyBass
    A guideline change that would allow the stereo tag if it is printed on the release artwork is just swapping one unread guideline for another - the same lazy submitters will still incorrectly add the tag.

    I agree. -1 from me.

    The Stereo tag being added willy-nilly to releases from 1970 and beyond could be greatly reduced by a warning in the submission form. Was this not considered? This was proposed at Forum Thread #694092 (and maybe elsewhere), but like most threads in the Development forum, it has gone unacknowledged by staff.
  • avalon67 about 1 year ago

    hafler3o
    This is not about us deciding as a community, it is a precursor to a pre-ordained decision.


    We will see. But I have a feeling you're right.
  • hatfulofelt about 1 year ago

    hafler3o
    This is not about us deciding as a community, it is a precursor to a pre-ordained decision.

    I'm all for simplicity in the format:

    1) No need for Stereo (unless Mono exists).
    2) No need for 33 1/3 (for LPs that are 33 1/3).
    3) No need for Black (vinyl).
    4) I feel: no need for 45 for 7"s that play at 45 (still unclear about what was decided, if anything),

    KISS.
  • perlator about 1 year ago

    mjb
    The Stereo tag being added willy-nilly to releases from 1970 and beyond could be greatly reduced by a warning in the submission form.

    "You are about to describe a release that was likely recorded in Stereo as a Stereo release. Please reconsider."
    https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/401740?page=2#6969231
  • hafler3o about 1 year ago

    hatfulofelt

    KISS.

    Ahhh.. That was nice, just before bed-time too ;)
  • loukash about 1 year ago

    Diognes_The_Fox
    The tag is not factually incorrect, just somewhat obvious information that's not really necessary. I think it's somewhat intuitive to add stereo when it's printed on the release if you are a newer contributor as well.

    Agreed.

    cheebacheebakid
    Easy fix if this goes through:
    6.13. The 'Stereo' tag shouldn't be used unless mentioned on release.

    I'd go the other way around:

    The ‘Stereo’ tag can be used if mentioned on release.
  • hatfulofelt about 1 year ago

    Six of one, half dozen of the other.
  • mjb about 1 year ago

    mjb edited about 1 year ago
    perlator
    "You are about to describe a release that was likely recorded in Stereo as a Stereo release. Please reconsider."

    I was thinking more of a warning that simply restated RSG §6.13 and then said "Please make sure the tag is needed on this release."

    hatfulofelt
    Six of one, half dozen of the other.

    Indeed. Allowing the tag if the release says Stereo means having to enforce taking it off of releases that don't say stereo on them. That's just trading one problem for another. Releases which have no images for verification are just going to languish.

    If the rationale is that people are going to just add it anyway, then doesn't it follow that Mono is valid on all pre-stereo-era releases? (not that there is a guideline forbidding it)
  • DarreLP about 1 year ago

    Clogwhistle
    No. Consider


    Isn't that just an argument to preserve the 'mono' option?

    Maybe that's the bigger question...why do we need *both* mono and stereo as options? Would one (mono) suffice for anything post 1970? (One could argue it would suffice in general?)
  • mjb about 1 year ago

    DarreLP
    why do we need *both* mono and stereo as options

    I don't know, but releases which contain an assortment of mono and stereo material are allowed to get both tags (per forum discussion). It would be misleading to only tag them as just one or the other.

    Forum Thread #401740 is still open and covers this idea (removing the Stereo tag altogether).
  • loukash about 1 year ago

    DarreLP
    why do we need *both* mono and stereo as options?

    Because there are tons of releases that are both stereo and mono.
  • DetroitBootyBass about 1 year ago

    mjb
    Forum Thread #401740 is still open


    Here is an interesting quote from that thread (about the problematic new submission form check-boxes) by Eviltoastman:

    "When we changed the form, I suddenly saw more stereo tags. Reasons for this? Accidental selection, users hitting everything that seems to apply to the copy in hand with no background knowledge for the tag's usage? I would imagine other tags like limited Edition are also being "overused" for want of a better euphemism because of the design change. When we alerted staff to the problem when the form was changed, I recall being told that there was no evidence that the change to the form was related to increase in the use of the stereo tag which coincided with the form being changed. As I write this, I refreshed my search as linked above to find that in the short time from then I pasted the last release link above, to the end of this passage a further seven releases have been added with the stereo tag. I'd be interested to see comparative rates from before the recent form change, I find it hard reconciling the idea that it's a coincidence."
  • DarreLP about 1 year ago

    loukash
    Because there are tons of releases that are both stereo and mono.


    My point is that it would be mono OR stereo. We don't need both options to communicate that. We can imply stereo UNLESS mono is marked, couldn't we?
  • loukash about 1 year ago

    DarreLP
    We can imply stereo UNLESS mono is marked, couldn't we?

    E.g. on Leon Russell - Lady Blue: if you'd mark it only "Mono" but not "Stereo", you'd be implying that both tracks are mono. That would be false, hence both tags are needed.
  • disneyfacts about 1 year ago

    hatfulofelt
    4) I feel: no need for 45 for 7"s that play at 45 (still unclear about what was decided, if anything),


    I think it's still best to include 45RPM on 7" releases because they're way more likely to possibly be other speeds (usually 78/33) than LPs or 10" records.

    Diognes_The_Fox
    de-criminalize usage of stereo on submissions after 1970.


    Maybe instead of completely allowing it, discourage it and don't worry about it if it does show up on a release post 1970? I don't think we should be adding stereo tags to everything post 1970, but I do think there's better things to be fixing/updating/voting on.
  • mirva about 1 year ago

    Diognes_The_Fox
    the best option is to alter the guidelines to, essentially, de-criminalize usage of stereo on submissions after 1970.

    +1
  • hatfulofelt about 1 year ago

    disneyfacts
    I think it's still best to include 45RPM on 7" releases because they're way more likely to possibly be other speeds (usually 78/33) than LPs or 10" records.

    Of course. Point being: 45 *could* be understood as the default, as 33 1/3 is for LPs - unless otherwise stated. Of course, many 7"s play at 45 on one side & 33 1/3 on the other. Doesn't matter.
  • d-of about 1 year ago

    Silvermo
    The more information from the release (written on the release) the better, in my oppinion.
    mine too, true info definitely better than info lacking
  • hatfulofelt about 1 year ago

    d-of
    mine too, true info definitely better than info lacking

    Slippery slope as well: size of course matters, black vinyl matters (but we don't list it - as it's the understood "default"), glossy or matte covers? (only needed if there's variants), laminate or not? (ditto)...
  • disneyfacts about 1 year ago

    hatfulofelt
    disneyfacts
    I think it's still best to include 45RPM on 7" releases because they're way more likely to possibly be other speeds (usually 78/33) than LPs or 10" records.

    Of course. Point being: 45 *could* be understood as the default, as 33 1/3 is for LPs - unless otherwise stated. Of course, many 7"s play at 45 on one side & 33 1/3 on the other. Doesn't matter.


    LP is an industry term that has a standard definition (12" & 33RPM), while 7" is just a size - it could be anything. Maybe if it's used with the Single tag, it could be considered default, but otherwise I don't think there's a default 7".
  • TopCats45s about 1 year ago

    As a user that now has a bit of experience, I like to see the format field pertinent to details specific to that release. However, when I was a new user I quite frankly thought the rules regarding the "stereo" and "single" tags quite rigid. So,
    Diognes_The_Fox
    de-criminalize usage of stereo on submissions after 1970
    +1
  • leeving about 1 year ago

    TopCats45s
    As a user that now has a bit of experience, I like to see the format field pertinent to details specific to that release. However, when I was a new user I quite frankly thought the rules regarding the "stereo" and "single" tags quite rigid.


    Yes. I also think the format for a submission should be independent of any other release. If it's a Gatefold, add gatefold. If it's Stereo, add Stereo. I shouldn't need to know if a Mono was ever released.

    Having to know every other release is kinda backwards when collecting data.
  • uzumaki about 1 year ago

    I agree, add it, it's written on so many of my records so why not add it as a tag when it's there. Likewise for 331/3 RPM on LPs - if it's there then why not add that too.
  • leeving about 1 year ago

    uzumaki
    I agree, add it, it's written on so many of my records so why not add it as a tag when it's there. Likewise for 331/3 RPM on LPs - if it's there then why not add that too.


    I don't know if I'd go with 33 1/3 for LP, I'm a firm believer that LP=33 1/3

    Then again there are so many 45RPM LP's being listed that it may make sense to add the 33 1/3 or make a guideline that 45RPM should be listed as 12" unless specifically marketed as an "LP" by the label.

    But this should be another discussion and this thread is about the Stereo tag...
  • DarreLP about 1 year ago

    loukash
    E.g. on Leon Russell - Lady Blue: if you'd mark it only "Mono" but not "Stereo", you'd be implying that both tracks are mono


    ahhh! I forgot about the mixed releases. Good point!
  • Clogwhistle about 1 year ago

    DarreLP
    Isn't that just an argument to preserve the 'mono' option?

    It seems that I read what I wanted to read and disregarded the rest. You are correct.
  • seehaas about 1 year ago

    Diognes_The_Fox
    de-criminalize usage of stereo on submissions after 1970.


    +1 - it's factual information and can stay if added to submissions in my opinion.

    But I would like something in the guidelines to prevent users mass editing releases just to add the Stereo tag without any other significant changes.
    Something like with shuffling around order of LCCN or BaOI for personal preference:

    Do not edit a release just to add tolerated tags like "Stereo" or "45 RPM" - this should only be added together with other valuable information.
  • Gundozer about 1 year ago

    seehaas
    prevent users mass editing releases
    Yes this would be a couple of thousand rank points to gain for someone?
  • hafler3o about 1 year ago

    seehaas

    +1 - it's factual information and can stay if added to submissions in my opinion.

    But I would like something in the guidelines to prevent users mass editing releases just to add the Stereo tag without any other significant changes.
    Something like with shuffling around order of LCCN or BaOI for personal preference:

    Do not edit a release just to add tolerated tags like "Stereo" or "45 RPM" - this should only be added together with other valuable information.


    No. It's daft to change one guideline because people don't read the guidlines, then add more obscure general terms because they can now do what they previously could not. The tag is factual, but the current state of the database is that 'stereo' is assumed (and can be added to differentiate from mono versions or mixed stereo/mono releases) so there's no real change taking place here.

    'Update this only if you update something else' type of caveats won't be adhered to. Plain and simple. We don't need a Black vinyl, silver CD, 33rpm LP tickbox. But we could have it as it is factual. The essence of the argument is not about who gets annoying emails about changes to submissions, but about annoying sellers with 'stoooopid' rules. $$ baby!
  • Vipasser about 1 year ago

    Hello everybody

    seehaas
    Do not edit a release just to add tolerated tags like "Stereo" or "45 RPM" - this should only be added together with other valuable information


    Sorry @Seehas but I think people wouldn't read it as already don't read stereo tag should only be used....

    Sorry folks, but I don't agree with this change: -1
    imho it only needs to be read as many other guidelines.

    Do we need to change also rules about capitalization because people edit with capital letters as on release? And you know there are a lot of this kind and takes even more effort than remove stereo tag when it is no needed.
  • _jules about 1 year ago

    +1 for decriminalising Stereo tag

    can we have the same thread where Stereo is replaced with Digipak?
    essentially the same don't-use-unless-there-is-also-one-that-is-not logic (or lack thereof for a large proportion of the database users)
    thanks
  • vinyljunkie66 about 1 year ago

    -1 from me.
    Should we change RSG §6.13 just because countless newbies are systematically adding the 'stereo' tag where it's absolutely unnecessary? Seriously?
    What will be the next step? Change RSG §6.12.2 because a lot of gold-stamped retail releases are submitted as promos on a daily basis?
    Or, as Vipasser already said, change RSG §1.2.1 because thousands of new users ignore submission form warnings and capitalization guidelines?
    IMHO new users should be educated to follow the guidelines – and RSG §6.13 is a pretty simple one. We shouldn't change the guidelines just because of them.
  • loukash about 1 year ago

    seehaas
    tags like "Stereo" or "45 RPM"

    Firstly, "45 RPM" is not the subject here at all.
    Secondly, 7" does not automatically imply "45 RPM".

    Some older threads for reference (I just searched for those with my own participations, but there are many more for sure):
    https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/230270
    https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/270628
    https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/388577
    https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/699359
  • loukash about 1 year ago

    _jules
    can we have the same thread where Stereo is replaced with Digipak?
    essentially the same don't-use-unless-there-is-also-one-that-is-not logic (or lack thereof for a large proportion of the database users)

    I'm all for it! :)
    Same for "Gatefold" and others:
    https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/370938
    https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/399424
    etc., etc.
  • jansenENjanssen about 1 year ago

    seehaas
    But I would like something in the guidelines to prevent users mass editing releases just to add the Stereo tag without any other significant changes.


    What will stop people from doing this though? You can't vote needs changes on that as it would then be correct edit, we have already seen so many edits done just to remove things like stereo without fixing anything else, don't think a guideline would stop this. The whole problem is that people don't read them or keep up to date with guideline changes in the first place. Changing guidelines won't make people read them any more or less. It's like putting a band-aid on a gushing open wound = it ain't gonna make much of a difference if the guideline is changed.
  • leeving about 1 year ago

    Would it be something the Bot could do? It may be hard to program to edit the correct subs, but it could be a way to do it.

    Or not.
  • hafler3o about 1 year ago

    jansenENjanssen
    it ain't gonna make much of a difference if the guideline is changed.


    Well 5 million releases (say) will need stereo added at some point vs. 0.2 million releases will need stereo removing at some point. Just so we can have more clutter in the format line? I see a big difference, and not for the betterment of the database. Best worst option is removing 6.13 and getting updatebot to do tag addition on anything not marked as mono or stereo already, so everyone can relax!
  • LolH about 1 year ago

    hafler3o
    so we can have more clutter in the format line

    This would be my main objection. Some format lines are already busy enough, without adding 'Stereo', which IMHO doesn't really add anything to the format.
  • hafler3o about 1 year ago

    LolH
    This would be my main objection


    Or an "All Media, Stereo" disaster
  • typoman2 about 1 year ago

    jansenENjanssen
    What will stop people from doing this though?

    Nothing. I've seen people do the weirdest things to get as much points in the possible minimum time with minimum efforts.
    "Just look what an expirienced user I am. Over 20 000 points already.“

    Why are people spending their time adding hundreds of Album tags without source and ignoring all mistakes?
    For the sake of the data of course.

    But as this aught to be a fun thread:
    I am against changing the rule.
  • loukash about 1 year ago

    hafler3o
    Just so we can have more clutter in the format line?

    Display issue is not a valid argument. Please complain to front-end designers. :P

    typoman2
    tags without source

    Well, the idea of this proposal is that the "Stereo" tag would be actually sourced by the release itself.
  • Earjerk about 1 year ago

    I think this thread is derailing.

    What problem is there now, with people gaining rank points points through adding a stereo tag? I don't see this as a problem.
  • typoman2 about 1 year ago

    loukash
    Well, the idea of this proposal is that the "Stereo" tag would be actually sourced by the release itself.

    Please read again … I was talking about the Album tag here.
    Which will surely come then as next together with Single and EP (We think about removing 6.10) … because it makes such a lot of work.
    As if anybody ever was worried about unpaid work here …
  • NoidsAreUs about 1 year ago

    hafler3o
    Why not do away with all guidelines, nothing would need fixing or be wrong then.


    typoman2
    I am against changing the rule.


    +1
  • hmvh about 1 year ago

    Can we also have a circular tag please, just to differentiate from those discs that aren't?

    hafler3o
    No. It's daft to change one guideline because people don't read the guidlines, then add more obscure general terms because they can now do what they previously could not. The tag is factual, but the current state of the database is that 'stereo' is assumed (and can be added to differentiate from mono versions or mixed stereo/mono releases) so there's no real change taking place here.

    'Update this only if you update something else' type of caveats won't be adhered to. Plain and simple. We don't need a Black vinyl, silver CD, 33rpm LP tickbox.


    This. Rule change not needed.

    This is a voter issue, and those worth their salt will know to advise against the unnecessary (though not incorrect) use of the tag, not penalise because of it.
  • loukash about 1 year ago

    typoman2
    Please read again … I was talking about the Album tag here.

    I know. I have deliberately taken your quote out of your context, because your example simply does not apply in this context. :)
  • Diognes_The_Fox about 1 year ago

    bobbley
    I'm betting there will be someone who'll want to add 'stereo' to all the ones that currently haven't got it, just to get brownie points...


    Anyone attempting to perform any type of mass edit is still bound under mass edit guidelines.

    This is kind of what I want to avoid. I think generally, stereo doesn't need to be added after 1970 and nor do I intend to start doing so as a contributor. I'm not saying you should start adding stereo to every sub ever. It's okay if it's a user preference thing.

    leeving
    Would it be something the Bot could do? It may be hard to program to edit the correct subs, but it could be a way to do it.


    There's no way to automatically tell if it should be there or not. Stereo tag might exist where the mono version isn't in the DB yet, etc.
  • Diognes_The_Fox about 1 year ago

    Let's keep this on topic. I know how much many of you love to use slippery slope arguments.
  • NoidsAreUs about 1 year ago

    hmvh
    Rule change not needed.


    Rule has already been changed, you just didn't catch it.
  • d-of about 1 year ago

    Diognes_The_Fox
    Stereo tag might exist where the mono version isn't in the DB yet
    probably tens-of-thousands [prob more] Mono releases without mono in format nor images that would get tagged stereo incorrectly

    Diognes_The_Fox
    generally, stereo doesn't need to be added after 1970 and nor do I intend to start doing so as a contributor. I'm not saying you should start adding stereo to every sub ever. It's okay if it's a user preference thing.
    likely best to keep current guideline untouched then
  • jansenENjanssen about 1 year ago

    Diognes_The_Fox
    . It's okay if it's a user preference thing.


    And you see what happens when you leave it up to preference: as in entering identifiers, or order of lccns and baois, causes constant friction, and isn't that just what we want to avoid?
  • syke about 1 year ago

    hafler3o
    Stereo is useful ony in the context of mono versions. I'm against the idea of moving the guidelines to cater for those who don't bother to read them anyway. Why not do away with all guidelines, nothing would need fixing or be wrong then.

    Count me as a big -1 on this proposal.


    this, so much this. This will lead to many entirely pointless edits to records and CDs. There is nothing to be gained from this change
  • Fauni-Gena about 1 year ago

    hmvh
    This. Rule change not needed.

    This is a voter issue, and those worth their salt will know to advise against the unnecessary (though not incorrect) use of the tag, not penalise because of it.

    Agreed. -1 to a Guidelines change.
    syke
    This will lead to many entirely pointless edits to records and CDs. There is nothing to be gained from this change

    That's how I see it as well. We don't need lots of additional mass edits that really are pointless. The Guideline is not broken and does not need to be fixed.
    jansenENjanssen
    And you see what happens when you leave it up to preference: as in entering identifiers, or order of lccns and baois, causes constant friction, and isn't that just what we want to avoid?

    I'd say so.
    LolH
    . Some format lines are already busy enough, without adding 'Stereo', which IMHO doesn't really add anything to the format.

    Another good argument against it.
    jansenENjanssen
    Changing guidelines won't make people read them any more or less. It's like putting a band-aid on a gushing open wound = it ain't gonna make much of a difference if the guideline is changed.

    This. So much this. To me this proposal is allowing a pointless edit and/or addition to format. It just isn't needed.
  • Vipasser about 1 year ago

    Diognes_The_Fox


    I'm not saying you should start adding stereo to every sub ever. It's okay if it's a user preference thing.


    Imho this could be vague → If an user comes to one of my submission and adds stereo tag, it is ok then, but as my preference it is different then I may also remove it, it's my preference too.
  • hafler3o about 1 year ago

    loukash
    so we can have more clutter in the format line?
    Display issue is not a valid argument. Please complain to front-end designers...


    Why bother. Two years warning given to fix the submission page and we get a nice graph instead at the end of it. As for the tag, the concept of 'stereo' should be independent of the jacket (sourced from the release). All those downloads, white labels that will be left in limbo, but hey, who's going to read the guideline? Not me. I've already ticked a box about something somewhere back somewhen.
  • hatfulofelt about 1 year ago

    loukash
    Secondly, 7" does not automatically imply "45 RPM".

    At least it's been discussed, thank you.

    Fauni-Gena
    To me this proposal is allowing a pointless edit and/or addition to format. It just isn't needed.

    +1

    Just in case it hasn't come up: Why limit Stereo to something explicitly stating Stereo? If something is in Stereo, and acceptable sources can confirm it's in Stereo, why limit the tag just because it's not printed? We allow all sorts of other things as long as valid proof is given.

    Where to draw the line: Record has a center hole? Record has a picture sleeve? Not to get off topic but...

    We all have our threshold/definition for what is pertinent info vs. superfluous. And, we'll abide by what's decided.
  • velove about 1 year ago

    _jules
    +1 for decriminalising Stereo tag

    can we have the same thread where Stereo is replaced with Digipak?
    essentially the same don't-use-unless-there-is-also-one-that-is-not logic (or lack thereof for a large proportion of the database users)
    thanks

    +1 for allowing stereo tag if it's on the release.

    and +1 for allowing digipack in FTF (for another thread I know)
  • NoidsAreUs about 1 year ago

    velove
    +1 for allowing stereo tag if it's on the release.


    hafler3o
    As for the tag, the concept of 'stereo' should be independent of the jacket (sourced from the release)


    And what about the darned US unisex mono/stereo sleeves - I got more than ten (after 1970) reading 'stereo' on top of the release although they definitely represent mono releases, just because either nobody cared or because of what used to be called a manufacturing variation once upon a time on Discogs...
  • hatfulofelt about 1 year ago

    Right now ha, ha, ha, ha, ha
    I am anti-Channel
    I dress all in flannel
    Don't know what I've got
    But I know how to list it
    I want to destroy the Free Text Field (not really)
    'Cause I want to be anarchy
    Not Diognes :)
  • NoidsAreUs about 1 year ago

    My pocket's full of oats,
    cause we're visiting the goats...
  • clanc about 1 year ago

    If this gets through, then in the near future a 'stereo'-tag will be added:
    a) to a pre-1970s release having a monaural equivalent
    or
    b) because it's (somewhere?) on the release
    or
    c) in both cases

    This won't be any clearer for confused contributors IMO. I don't think we should change the guidelines because the database cannot uphold the same standards of quality as it used to.
    Fauni-Gena
    The Guideline is not broken and does not need to be fixed.
    (...)
    jansenENjanssenChanging guidelines won't make people read them any more or less.
    This. So much this.

    This indeed.

    -1 for a change.
  • ultimathulerecords about 1 year ago

    If Stereo is allowed as Diognes_The_Fox suggests, then how would we cope with French "Gravure Universelle" releases that state mono/stéréo like https://www.discogs.com/Magma-1001-Centigrades/release/922962#images/8758703 and others that state mono/stereo compatible?
  • loukash about 1 year ago

    Diognes_The_Fox
    Stereo tag might exist where the mono version isn't in the DB yet, etc.

    Exactly.

    Example:
    SHQ - Jazzové Nebajky - The Jazz Nebyeki (Jazz Non-fables)
    I haven't seen the mono pressing in the "wild" yet (apart from this), but apart from what's printed on the sleeve (both mono and stereo catalog numbers) I also have official scans from the original master tape certificate with both stereo/mono catalog and matrix numbers on it, as well as the official digitalization from the original mono master tape on my hard drive. I guess that back in 1973 the mono pressing was likely released only in a very small edition for domestic distribution, whereas the stereo edition was often repressed for export for many years and is thus more common. It could also be that some users who have the stereo edition in their collection actually own the mono version but didn't bother to submit it yet (hey, I also have tons of existing submissions in my collection with a private note "add version"). We just don't know yet, but it doesn't make the "Stereo" tag invalid.
  • perlator about 1 year ago

    ultimathulerecords
    then how would we cope with French "Gravure Universelle" releases that state mono/stéréo like https://www.discogs.com/Magma-1001-Centigrades/release/922962#images/8758703 and others that state mono/stereo compatible?

    It was released in 1971, so it must be Stereo, or not?
    Seriously, how do we deal with that right now? We ignore it. Instead the interested public learns that it is an Album. Which is really exciting information, but does not explain what Gravure Universelle means. Perhaps we need a format tag "Pseudo Stereo". Who knows.
    But currently the release above is in stereo, by guideline definition, while
    https://www.discogs.com/Barbara-Une-Soir%C3%A9e-Avec-Barbara/release/2669531
    is in mono, because it was released before 1970. Which is of course nonsense, but it results from a guideline that is nonsense.
  • hatfulofelt about 1 year ago

    loukash
    but it doesn't make the "Stereo" tag invalid.

    Of course not.

    perlator
    It was released in 1971, so it must be Stereo, or not?

    See above.
  • mirva about 1 year ago

    uzumaki
    Likewise for 331/3 RPM on LPs - if it's there then why not add that too.

    _jules
    can we have the same thread where Stereo is replaced with Digipak?

    loukash
    Same for "Gatefold" and others:


    +1 for all this too. Preferably add a dropdown for packaging, it shouldn't be that hard. :P

    Also to add to my simple, earlier +1 for DTF's suggestion: The stereo guideline (and the others too) complicate the submission process for no reason. I personally find it sometimes frustrating when a new user's submissions are otherwise really good, but then I have to either ask, or edit it myself, just to remove the stereo tag, sometimes from 100 or so releases. Anyone's time could be spent better.
  • jansenENjanssen about 1 year ago

    mirva
    I personally find it sometimes frustrating when a new user's submissions are otherwise really good, but then I have to either ask, or edit it myself, just to remove the stereo tag, sometimes from 100 or so releases


    we find usually when stereo has been added, there are also other mistakes. One goes with the other as it means they did not fully read or understand the guidelines if they add stereo.

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