• andrenafulva over 3 years ago

    The warning given to submitters/editors when adding a credit role that is not in the list of approved credit roles is somewhat inadequate. It suggests that it is fine to simply add the unlisted role and note this in the submission notes. However, the correct procedure is to propose the new credit role in https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/157839

    The current warning reads:
    - The "Made-up Instrument" credit role does not appear to match the credit list. Please check your credits against the list. If you believe the credit is a valid one, but it doesn't appear on the credit list, please leave a submission note to that effect, so we can process the new credit properly.

    I propose changing the final clause so that it reads:
    - The "Made-up Instrument" credit role does not appear to match the credit list. Please check your credits against the list. If you believe the credit is a valid one, but it doesn't appear on the credit list, please leave a submission note to that effect and propose adding the new credit in [url=https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/157839]this forum discussion[/ url].
    (new text in bold).

    Thoughts?
  • clanc over 3 years ago

    andrenafulva
    somewhat inadequate. It suggests that it is fine to simply add the unlisted role

    Seems like an excellent idea, too many invalid credits around. IMO those should also be blocked from use as long as they're being proposed / discussed.
  • LolH over 3 years ago

    clanc
    Seems like an excellent idea, too many invalid credits around. IMO those should also be blocked from use as long as they're being proposed / discussed.

    +1
  • andrenafulva over 3 years ago

    LolH
    clancSeems like an excellent idea, too many invalid credits around. IMO those should also be blocked from use as long as they're being proposed / discussed.

    Personally I'd like to change it so that no credit role can be added unless it is in the list. If someone believes a new credit role should be added to the list, they can post in the thread. Once agreed and added to the list, they can then use this new credit role in submissions.

    That would be more of a change to current policy, so I thought I'd start with a simple rewording to make current policy clear.

    Another option would be for staff to get a notification each time someone adds an invalid credit role to a sub....(!)

    Think I should bring Diognes_The_Fox in to get some staff involvement.
  • DonHergeFan over 3 years ago

    andrenafulva
    Personally I'd like to change it so that no credit role can be added unless it is in the list. If someone believes a new credit role should be added to the list, they can post in the thread. Once agreed and added to the list, they can then use this new credit role in submissions.

    +1
  • jansenENjanssen over 3 years ago

    jansenENjanssen edited over 3 years ago
    andrenafulva
    Thoughts?


    We were thinking of posting similar, it is misleading as the wording does suggest it is ok to do.
    andrenafulva
    I'd like to change it so that no credit role can be added unless it is in the list.

    agreed, and no possibility of ticking any box for this while role is incorrect as can be done at the moment
  • avalon67 over 3 years ago

    Agree with most if not all comments. Gets ignored, when commented on I sometimes get replies based on 'that's what it says on the release' .......

    A link to a guideline might be a good idea, or to a tutorial on how to enter, ie, Drums [Talking Drums] or similar.....
  • LolH over 3 years ago

    jansenENjanssen
    and no possibility of ticking any box for this while role is incorrect as can be done at the moment

    +1
  • vinyljunkie66 over 3 years ago

    andrenafulva
    Personally I'd like to change it so that no credit role can be added unless it is in the list. If someone believes a new credit role should be added to the list, they can post in the thread. Once agreed and added to the list, they can then use this new credit role in submissions.

    jansenENjanssen
    no possibility of ticking any box for this while role is incorrect as can be done at the moment

    +1. Definitely agree.
  • mcr1 over 3 years ago

    clanc
    Seems like an excellent idea


    +1

    avalon67
    a tutorial on how to enter, ie, Drums [Talking Drums] or similar.....


    Good idea too.
  • Diognes_The_Fox over 3 years ago

    Thanks for the heads up here. I will report back when I have additional information.
  • jweijde over 3 years ago

    jweijde edited over 3 years ago
    jansenENjanssen
    no possibility of ticking any box for this while role is incorrect as can be done at the moment


    Here's a post from nik dismissing that option:
    https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/695287#6957956

    It's probably not a good idea to completely block submissions in these cases anyway. Afterall, most credits are still optional information.

    andrenafulva
    "If you believe the credit is a valid one, but it doesn't appear on the credit list, please leave a submission note to that effect, so we can process the new credit properly."
    [...]
    If someone believes a new credit role should be added to the list, they can post in the thread. Once agreed and added to the list, they can then use this new credit role in submissions.


    When reading this and considering the amount of times you see a submission with incorrect credit roles and no submission notes about this whatsoever, I really wonder how much a change of the warning text is going to make a difference.
    The idea that someone can't make a submission unless the credit is approved, does feel a bit bureaucratic as well. It would be better if Discogs developed a way to track submissions with incorrect credit roles, so people can easily spot them and make the necessary adjustments.
  • clanc over 3 years ago

    jweijde

    It's probably not a good idea to completely block submissions in these cases anyway. Afterall, most credits are still optional information.

    Well, no need to block submissions in their entirety. Just block the invalid credit and propose the submitter to select one from the valid options.
  • hafler3o over 3 years ago

    Another plus one here, I'm fine with the submitter needing to fix the credit before submission is allowed. It is not difficult.
  • jweijde over 3 years ago

    jweijde edited over 3 years ago
    edit: doublepost, site is very slow right now too
  • jweijde over 3 years ago

    clanc
    Well, no need to block submissions in their entirety.

    It's what will happen though. The submission won't be public unless the credit error is fixed.
    hafler3o
    Another plus one here, I'm fine with the submitter needing to fix the credit before submission is allowed.


    They already need to. Otherwise the warning would be pointless already.
  • velove over 3 years ago

    jweijde
    It would be better if Discogs developed a way to track submissions with incorrect credit roles, so people can easily spot them and make the necessary adjustments.

    it would be really useful if the system could suggest the correct credit role based on the entered text. or at least link to releases that already have that role.

    Make it easy for the user to add the correct thing.
  • LolH over 3 years ago

    jweijde
    They already need to. Otherwise the warning would be pointless already.

    No, they don't, that's why we see so many of these issues. A warning is given, all they have to do is tick the box and the warning can be ignored.
  • mcr1 over 3 years ago

    velove
    if the system could suggest the correct credit role based on the entered text


    In the google style "showing results for.....". following a typo

    That's a hell of a leap for the site but a good idea.
  • jweijde over 3 years ago

    jweijde
    They already need to [fix the credit before submitting]. Otherwise the warning would be pointless already.


    LolH
    No, they don't, that's why we see so many of these issues. A warning is given, all they have to do is tick the box and the warning can be ignored.

    The current warning clearly indicates something is wrong. This suggests that something should be corrected first. The only problem is that the warning doesn't make very clear how it needs to be fixed. So that can be improved.
    It could for example mention that when a credit role doesn't appear in the list, the "Other" credit role can be used with the actual credit that appears on the release as a description.
    We shouldn't be completely blocking the ability to submit when someone enters incorrect information that is not required according to RSG §1.3.1
  • LolH over 3 years ago

    jweijde
    We shouldn't be completely blocking the ability to submit when someone enters incorrect information that is not required

    We'll have to agree to disagree there then. If the information isn't required, then don't enter it at all if you can't enter it correctly. If you are going to enter it, make sure you enter it correctly.
    There are plenty of other areas in the submission form that will prevent you from submitting if you have missed information off, so I don't see why you shouldn't be prevented from submitting if you have knowingly entered something incorrectly. Note I use the word 'knowingly' there - you can ignore the warnings, but you cannot pretend that you did not see them.
  • massenmedium over 3 years ago

    If only existing credit roles were allowed but there was an "Other" option then those could easily be kept track of. Many could likely be edited to fit existing roles.

    What actually happens with credits under non-existent roles currently - where do they show up in an Artist profile?
  • hafler3o over 3 years ago

    jweijde
    It could for example mention that when a credit role doesn't appear in the list, the "Other" credit role can be used with the actual credit that appears on the release as a description.


    No it should not as it would (in most circumstances no doubt) contradict the guideline covering the very use of 'Other' "... To be used for roles credited on the release that are not musical or technical, and should not be linked, for example, catering personnel, drivers etc..."

    So I'm with LolH on this one, the credits should be entered correctly. Once learned, it's not forgotten. Users already have enough encouragement to let others take the strain for their sloppy work.
  • massenmedium over 3 years ago

    massenmedium edited over 3 years ago
    Sorry didn't realise there was an other meaning for Other. I think the principle stands though.

    So the warning text could say something like -

    "Unknown credit role - please check the list of allowed roles and see if one applies. If it doesn't exist you may use the "_Other" option and/or request the formal addition of this role in the forum. Please always explain such credit roles in the Submission Notes."
  • hafler3o over 3 years ago

    massenmedium
    Sorry didn't realise there was an other meaning for Other. I think the principle stands though.


    A good idea if we introduce a new 'credit' that is not 'other' (already has established usage) but allows a quick 'search and fix' opportunity.
  • hmvh over 3 years ago

    hmvh edited over 3 years ago
    LolH
    If the information isn't required, then don't enter it at all if you can't enter it correctly. If you are going to enter it, make sure you enter it correctly.
    There are plenty of other areas in the submission form that will prevent you from submitting if you have missed information off, so I don't see why you shouldn't be prevented from submitting if you have knowingly entered something incorrectly. Note I use the word 'knowingly' there - you can ignore the warnings, but you cannot pretend that you did not see them.

    This pretty much sums up my stance.

    If the user has trouble adding optional data (credits, in this case), he should simply omit them. A release can always be revisited once he's more comfortable with the process or the credit (referring to a new instrument or role) has been agreed upon, created, and added to the official list.
  • massenmedium over 3 years ago

    hafler3o
    A good idea if we introduce a new 'credit' that is not 'other' (already has established usage) but allows a quick 'search and fix' opportunity.


    Certainly.

    The other thing about insisting on "_Other" is that for users wanting to enter "Llama Farmer" or whatever it will be unsatisfactory and serve as an encouragement to find an existing role or make an effort to explain it properly.
  • jweijde over 3 years ago

    hafler3o
    it should not as it would (in most circumstances no doubt) contradict the guideline covering the very use of 'Other' "... To be used for roles credited on the release that are not musical or technical, and should not be linked, for example, catering personnel, drivers etc..."


    Similar to the warning text, the text of this guideline could also be adjusted.
    Although
    hafler3o
    A good idea if we introduce a new 'credit' that is not 'other' (already has established usage) but allows a quick 'search and fix' opportunity.

    would be a much better option then. Maybe the system could even be adjusted to automatically 'convert' the incorrect role to this new role (with the original added as description) and show that in the warning.
  • DonHergeFan over 3 years ago

  • Diognes_The_Fox over 3 years ago

    Good morning everyone!

    This just happens to tie into a related issue regarding undefined credits not being indexed correctly which is being worked on at this time. We are looking to change the error text here and switch it from a warning that can be bypassed to an error that will not be able to be bypassed.

    Based on that, do we have any preference for that error text? I support ideas for working in Other, bracket adaptations and/or the forums if possible.
  • andrenafulva over 3 years ago

    How about:

    - The "Made-up Instrument" credit role does not appear to match the [url=https://www.discogs.com/help/creditslist]credits list[/ url]. Please select the appropriate role from the list, using square brackets to add the credit as shown on the release. If you believe the credit role should be added to the list, please propose adding it in [url=https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/157839]this forum discussion[/ url].
  • jansenENjanssen over 3 years ago

    andrenafulva
    please propose adding it in [url=https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/157839]this forum discussion[/ url].


    If that thread gets feedback from a staff member on a more regular basis than it has previously, including the link would be useful. Is that something that discogs can make sure of? As we had noticed the thread is kind of his and miss, was a long while before there was any feedback at all on many requests there this last time.
  • Diognes_The_Fox over 3 years ago

    jansenENjanssen
    If that thread gets feedback from a staff member on a more regular basis than it has previously, including the link would be useful. Is that something that discogs can make sure of? As we had noticed the thread is kind of his and miss, was a long while before there was any feedback at all on many requests there this last time.


    Yes, I'll make a note to myself to keep more on top of it.
  • Diognes_The_Fox over 3 years ago

    andrenafulva
    How about:

    - The "Made-up Instrument" credit role does not appear to match the [url=https://www.discogs.com/help/creditslist]credits list[/ url]. Please select the appropriate role from the list, using square brackets to add the credit as shown on the release. If you believe the credit role should be added to the list, please propose adding it in [url=https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/157839]this forum discussion[/ url].


    This looks pretty good to me. Any last minute objections?
  • jansenENjanssen over 3 years ago

    Maybe: "Please select the most appropriate role from the list"

    as not all credits on list match those on releases, chose the closest one to it, or maybe another way of wording that?
  • andrenafulva over 3 years ago

    jansenENjanssen
    Maybe: "Please select the most appropriate role from the list"

    Good idea.
  • clanc over 3 years ago

    Diognes_The_Fox
    This looks pretty good to me.

    +1

    jansenENjanssen
    the most appropriate

    +1
  • Diognes_The_Fox over 3 years ago

    Good evening!

    The "woobity" credit role does not appear to match the credit list. Please select the most appropriate role from the list, using square brackets to add the credit as shown on the release. If you believe the credit role should be added to the list, please propose adding it in this forum discussion.


    This is live.

    Let us know if anything needs to be updated.
  • andrenafulva over 3 years ago

    "Woobity" should definitely be added to the credits list!
  • andrenafulva over 3 years ago

    Diognes_The_Fox
    using square brackets to add the credit as shown on the release

    Looking at it live, I now think it would be better to add 'if necessary' to the above:

    using square brackets if necessary to add the credit as shown on the release

    but without the bold, of course.

    Apologies for not thinking of that earlier.
  • DonHergeFan over 3 years ago

    Diognes_The_Fox
    Let us know if anything needs to be updated.

    I would also add a hint to RSG §10.1.3. in that warning.
  • hatfulofelt over 3 years ago

    https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder631/400x/10909631.jpg
    andrenafulva
    "Woobity" should definitely be added to the credits list!
  • andrenafulva over 3 years ago

    hatfulofelt
    cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder631/400x/10909631.jpg

    That's a far less cool picture than it was a couple of years ago.
  • hatfulofelt over 3 years ago

    Makes me want Jello.
  • andrenafulva over 3 years ago

    Diognes_The_Fox
    Let us know if anything needs to be updated.

    The new warning is much better, but still almost every post in the 'Request new credit roles' concerns roles that could and should be entered with square brackets. I therefore think it would be worth adding something to reinforce this, perhaps a link to RSG §10.3.

    By the way, RSG §10.3 needs to be updated to reflect the fact that it is no longer possible to enter roles that are not in the list. My initial suggestion is (with changes in italics):

    10.3. Roles or instruments that are not in the Credits List and don't belong to subcategories of existing listed roles should be entered using the common name (in English if possible) of the main family of the instrument, or the common name of the role, using the brackets to describe more detail if necessary (see below). If in doubt, lists and descriptions can be found on the Internet in such places as Wikipedia or by doing a Google search. For instance, for 'Qanun' enter Kanun [Qanun], and for 'Assistant Engineer' enter Engineer [Assistant]. If none of the current general roles are appropriate for the role on the release, please suggest the new role in the Database forum thread. If possible, please include a short description of the role, and link/s to any supporting information on other websites.


    Another thing (slightly off topic, but on my wish-list for this): it would be a huge help if all the spelling variants in the credits list would pop up when entered in a submission. Let's call these 'RNVs' (role name variations). For instance, if someone typed in 'Qanun' (from the release), the following would appear: Kanun [Qanun]. We could also add specific credits for general roles, so when someone starts typing 'assi...', the following will appear: Engineer [Assistant], Producer [Assistant], and so on.

    If this were possible, it would make a huge difference to efficiency and accuracy for newer members. Diognes_The_Fox, do you think this is something worth passing on to the development team?

    hatfulofelt
    Makes me want Jello.

    Biafra?
  • Diognes_The_Fox over 3 years ago

    andrenafulva
    10.3. Roles or instruments that are not in the Credits List and don't belong to subcategories of existing listed roles should be entered using the common name (in English if possible) of the main family of the instrument, or the common name of the role, using the brackets to describe more detail if necessary (see below). If in doubt, lists and descriptions can be found on the Internet in such places as Wikipedia or by doing a Google search. For instance, for 'Qanun' enter Kanun [Qanun], and for 'Assistant Engineer' enter Engineer [Assistant]. If none of the current general roles are appropriate for the role on the release, please suggest the new role in the Database forum thread. If possible, please include a short description of the role, and link/s to any supporting information on other websites.


    I like this. Any objections?

    andrenafulva
    RNVs' (role name variations)


    I like this. I am not sure if I could get it looked at yet though, given other priorities, but it might be a good thing to look at the next time we look at doing a more significant subform update.
  • andrenafulva about 1 year ago

    Diognes_The_Fox
    I like this. Any objections?

    I note that RSG §10.3 still refers to adding roles that aren't in the list, which is no longer possible. Have you given any more thought to updating it, either as I suggested above or in some different form?
  • andrenafulva 8 months ago

    Bumping, as no one responded to DTF's last question, and the guideline still hasn't been updated to reflect the fact that it's no longer possible to add credit roles that aren't in the list. Diognes_The_Fox, how do you think we should proceed?

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