• sebfact about 1 year ago

    sebfact edited 5 months ago
    This thread is about post-WWII vinyl pressings from the Carl Lindström GmbH.
    It deals with German matrix references and the cat# systems of the German Electrola family of labels, specifically Electrola, Odeon, Columbia, but also Imperial (2), MGM Records and Capitol Records. Also featured are the contract pressing matrices.

    This is a work in progress thread
    So far the following has been proven: Carl Lindström GmbH was the pressing plant for records from certain EMI distributed labels in Germany, until the merger of the two companies.
    However, please do not add any codes/numbers as LCCN cat# for Carl Lindström GmbH.

    The numbers are master recording numbers, primarily indicating the location of the recording and the ordering label. Example: A matrix "7 XBA 10880" was recorded in Italy for HMV but it will be found on all world-wide releases (HMV UK, HMV Spain, Electrola Germany, etc.). Pressing was usually done locally, based on waxes, lacquers, or master tapes (used since 1949).

    The local companies reserved codes and / or matrix numbers for local repertoire and for foreign repertoire. That's why German Beatles on Odeon often have 7 XBE 50xxxx numbers (UK repertoire but a newly assembled tracklist, unique for Germany).

    Analysis and Sources
    The analysis is based on a research of over 6000 7", 10" and 12" records, using the runout descriptions and/or images from various sources (the matrices are usually also present on the labels).

    I have then discussed my findings with persons with a thorough knowledge about Electrola, partially stemming from working for the company or having original label catalogues or the records.

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    Brief overview
    Carl Lindström GmbH was the recording, mastering, vinyl pressing and cassette duplication company for the German Electrola labels. Electrola was responsible for A&R, marketing and distribution.
    The Lindström system dates back to the early days of the Carl Lindström A.-G., which was creating matrices for the respective international EMI, owned labels. Even though given up during / after WW II, the matrix system more or less lived on for the worldwide EMI labels. See below a list for international 7" matrices.

    Established 1951 (effective 26 November 1951) in Berlin and located at Schlesische Strasse.
    In September 1953 it moved to Cologne-Braunsfeld, sharing premises with the Electrola Gesellschaft m.b.H. at Maarweg 149.

    Effective 30 November 1972, both companies were merged by EMI Ltd. to form EMI Electrola GmbH.

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    The German Matrix System
    The matrix system for the Electrola inhouse labels is as follows:
    1. Format and channel prefix
    2. Label identifier
    3. Matrix number
    4. Cut number

    where:

    1. Format and channel prefixes are:
    7 T = 7" (17 cm) EP, Mono, 45
    7 X = 7" (17 cm), Mono, 45
    7 Y = 7" (17 cm), Stereo, 45

    0 X = 10" (25 cm), Mono, 33
    0 Y = 10" (25 cm), Stereo, 33

    2 X = 12" (30 cm), Mono, LP
    2 Y = 12" (30 cm), Stereo, LP

    Notes:
    - Only appears on Electrola releases. Columbia and Odeon have differing characteristics.

    2. German label identifiers are:
    AV = RCA
    BE = Odeon
    CR = Columbia
    KC = Imperial
    RA = Electrola
    SM = MGM Records

    3. The matrix number
    1 to 5 digits

    Notes:
    - The numbers are usually (but not necessarily!) sequential on releases.
    - 1 and 2 digits denote re-releases from Shellac repertoire.
    - 3 and 4 digits denote German artists and repertoire.
    - 5#### numbers indicate takeovers from foreign repertoire.

    4. The cut number
    is usually -1, -2, or higher (on both sides).

    So, the 7" matrix prefixes can be decomposed into:
    7 TRA = Electrola 7", EP, 45, Mono
    7 TYRA = Electrola 7", EP, 45, Stereo
    7 XRA = Electrola 7", 45, Mono

    7 TBE = Odeon 7", EP, 45, Mono
    7 TYBE = Odeon 7", EP, 45, Stereo
    7 XBE = Odeon 7", 45, Mono

    7 TCR = Columbia 7", EP, 45, Mono
    7 TYCR = Columbia 7", EP, 45, Stereo
    7 XCR = Columbia 7", 45, Mono

    7 XSM = MGM 7", 45, Mono
    7 TSM = MGM 7", EP, 45, Mono

    7 XKC = Imperial 7", 45, Mono
    7 TKC = Imperial 7", EP, 45, Mono

    7 XAV = RCA 7”, 45, Mono

    Other formats can be broken down as follows:
    XBE = Odeon / Imperial 10", 33, Mono
    XBEX = Odeon LP, Mono
    YBEX = Odeon LP, Mono

    2 XCR = Columbia LP, Mono
    XR = Columbia 10", 33, Mono
    YR = Columbia 10", 33, Stereo

    XKC = Imperial 10", 33, Mono

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Capitol Records
    Capitol was distributed and pressed by TELDEC until December 1956. Since 1 January 1957 Electrola distributed Capitol, so that is also when Lindström started to press the records. Lindström took over the Capitol matrix system, CAP-45 ##### from Teldec Press and only changed the cat# system from Telefunken's CF to Electrola's F. From April 1960 onwards the cat# system was changed to K ## ###.

    MGM Records
    MGM records were pressed from 1953 until September 1959 (and then went to Deutsche Grammophon), using a Lindström specific matrix sytem.

    Cornet Records
    Cornet was distributed and pressed since 1966. Not being an Electrola label, Lindström applied a different matrix system, using COR ####, where #### is identical with the cat. no. This lasted until ~1971 (then pressing was transferred to Sonopress).

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    Matrix Examples:
    7 XAV 135: RCA 7”, 45 rpm, Mono
    7 XCR 2010: Columbia 7”, 45 rpm, Mono, own repertoire
    7 TCR 50008: Columbia 7”, EP, 45 rpm, Mono, foreign repertoire
    7 TYCR 50238: Columbia 7”, EP, 45 rpm, Stereo, foreign repertoire
    7 XBE 1207: Odeon 7”, 45 rpm, Mono, own repertoire
    7 TBE 50014: Odeon 7”, EP, 45 rpm, Mono, foreign repertoire
    7 TYBE 50079: Odeon 7”, EP, 45 rpm, Stereo, foreign repertoire
    7 TRA 50084: Electrola 7", EP, 45 rpm, Mono, foreign repertoire
    7 TYRA 1594: Electrola 7", EP, 45 rpm, Stereo, own repertoire
    7 XRA 3119: Electrola 7", 45 rpm, Mono, own repertoire
    CAP 45-20174: Capitol 7", 45 rpm
    F1-20054: Capitol 7" EP, 45 rpm
    COR 3005: Cornet 7", 45 rpm

    Exceptional examples:
    7 XCR 50449-1 / 7 XCA 32217-2 (combination of German and Austrian matrix)
    7 XBE 2299-1 / 7 XBE 996-2 (combination of new release with earlier release)
    I-45-59083 A / 7 XRA 50064-1 (combination of 2 foreign repertoire releases)

    Contract pressings (non-Electrola labels, e.g. Deutscher Schallplatten-Club, Impression, Fono-Ring, Schwann)
    7 PAL (7”s)
    10 PAL (10", Mono)
    12 PAL (12", 33 1/3)

    followed by 4 unique stamper digits, ascending by side (e.g. 1815 on side A and 1816 on side B),

    followed by
    -SM: Stereo but also Mono playable
    -ST: Full stereo
    (no suffix indicates a Mono release).

    This system was in place between 1960 and 1972 and then replaced by
    7 F 60.#### for 7"s and
    F 60.### for LPs.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The 7" cat# schemes
    The various Electrola labels all had their own distinct cat# methodology. However, the overall system changed four times:
    1) December 1955: introduction of 17 (Electrola) / 27 (Columbia) / 37 (Odeon) as cat# prefixes
    2) April 1957: introduction of 45-EG (Electrola) / 45-O (Odeon) / 45-DW (Columbia) as cat# prefixes
    3) September 1958: the system is unified to E / O / C as prefixes, followed by 5 digits. Stereo releases appear as STE / SME (Electrola), STO / SMO (Odeon), STC / SMC (Columbia)
    4) April 1969: the system is unified to the global EMI methodology. All releases now start with 1C.

    Electrola 7" cat# scheme
    7 MW 101 to 124: RCA releases, 1954 - February 1956 --> then the repertoire moved to TELDEC
    7 MW 501 to 654: December 1954 - September 1956
    7 MW 17-7610 to 8669: December 1955 - April 1957
    45-EG 1 to 4: Verve releases, 1957 only
    45-EG 8670 to 8849: April 1957 - August 1958
    45-EG 7xxxx: 1958 only
    E 20 001 and higher: September 1958 - March 1969
    1C: since April 1969

    Odeon 7" cat# scheme
    OBL 1000 to 1110: 1954 – September 1956
    OBL 37-28109 to 37-29100: December 1955 to April 1957
    45-O 26xxx: 1957 only
    45-O 29101 to 29195: April 1957 - August 1958
    O 20 450 and higher: September 1958 - March 1969
    1C: since April 1969

    Columbia 7" cat# scheme
    SCMW 101 to 125: Columbia, foreign repertoire - 1953 - March 1954
    SCMW 501 to 554: March 1954 - April 1957
    SCMW 27-5500 to 5565: December 1955 - April 1957
    45-DW 5560 to 5663: April 1957 - August 1958
    C 20 301 and higher: September 1958 - March 1969
    1C: Since April 1969

    M-G-M 7" cat# scheme
    SP 1001 to 1181: March 1954 - April 1957
    SPW 181 to 188: 1956 only
    45-MGM 189 to 197: April 1957 - August 1958
    M 20 660: September 1958 - September 1959, then represented by Deutsche Grammophon.

    Imperial 7" cat# scheme
    IPE 1001 to 1025: 1957 - August 1958
    J 40 550: September 1958 - 1960
    Note: The J is in fact a capital I (as in Imperial) but was chosen to avoid confusion with the numeral 1.

    Capitol 7" cat# scheme
    F 3509 to F 4302: January 1957 - March 1960 (lower 3xxx numbers were also released later)
    K 21 411: April 1960 - March 1969
    1C: Since April 1969

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    International 7" codes

    7 AR: France Odeon 7", 45, Mono
    7 ARE: France Odeon 7", EP, 45, Mono
    7 AXPA: Australia Parlophone, 7", 45, Mono
    7 CHI: Chile Odeon 7", 45, own repertoire
    7 E: Italy Parlophone, 7", 45, EP, Mono
    7 TAN: New Zealand HMV 7", EP, 45, Mono
    7 TAV: Italy HMV 7", EP, 45, Mono
    7 TCA: UK Columbia 7", EP, 45, Mono
    7 TCB: Italy Columbia 7", EP, 45, Mono
    7 TCC: Denmark Columbia 7", EP, 45, Mono
    7 TCE: UK Parlophone 7", EP, 45, Mono
    7 TCEA: South Africa Columbia 7", EP, 45, Mono
    7 TCEI: India Columbia, 7", EP, 45, Mono (< # 6500) ~1965
    7 TCEI: Hongkong Columbia, 7", EP, 45, Mono (> # 6499) ~1965
    7 TCF: Holland Columbia, 7", EP, 45, Mono
    7 TCG: Greece Columbia 7", EP, 45, Mono
    7 TCHA: Austria Columbia, 7", EP, 45, Mono, own repertoire
    7 TCK: Spain Columbia / Regal 7", EP, 45, Mono
    7 TCKP: Pakistan Columbia 7", EP, 45, Mono
    7 TCL: France Columbia 7", EP, 45, Mono
    7 TCLB: Belgium Columbia, 7", EP, 45, Mono
    7 TCLN : Norway Odeon, 7", 45, Mono
    7 TCM: UK Columbia 7", EP, 45, Mono
    7 TCN: Norway Columbia 7", EP, 45, Mono
    7 TCO: UK Columbia 7", EP, 45, Mono
    7 TCP: Portugal Columbia 7", EP, 45, Mono
    7 TCS: Denmark, HMV, 7", EP, 45, Mono
    7 TCVO: Lebanon Parlophone, 7", EP, 45, Mono
    7 TEA: UK HMV 7", EP, 45, Mono
    7 TFA: Holland HMV 7", EP, 45, Mono
    7 TGA: Geece HMV 7", EP, 45, Mono
    7 TGO: Greece Odeon 7", EP, 45, Mono
    7 TGZ: Switzerland Odeon 7", EP, 45, Mono
    7 TKA: Spain HMV 7", EP, 45, Mono
    7 TKP: Denmark Odeon, 7", 45, EP, Mono
    7 TLA: France HMV 7", EP, 45, Mono
    7 TLB: Belgium HMV 7", EP, 45, Mono
    7 TPA: Hongkong Pathé, 7", EP, 45, Mono
    7 TPC: Portugal HMV 7", EP, 45, Mono
    7 TPEI: India Parlophone, 7", 45, EP, Mono (- 1965)
    7 TPEI: Hongkong Odeon, 7", 45, EP, Mono (> 1965)
    7 TPL: Austria Parlophone, 7", 45, EP, Mono
    7 TS: Sweden Columbia 7", EP, 45, Mono
    7 TSB: Sweden HMV 7", EP, 45, Mono
    7 TST: Sweden Odeon, 7", 45, EP, Mono
    7 TVH: Austria HMV, 7", EP, 45, Mono
    7 TZ: Switzerland Columbia 7", EP, 45, Mono
    7 TZA: Switzerland HMV 7", EP, 45, Mono

    7 X: Italy Parlophone, 7", 45, Mono
    7 XAA: Australia HMV, 7", 45, Mono
    7 XAN: New Zealand HMV, 7", 45, Mono
    7 XAPA: Australia Parlophone, 7" EP, 45, Mono
    7 XAR: Greece Apollon, 7", 45
    7 XAV: UK HMV, 7", 45, Mono
    7 XBA: Italy HMV 7", 45, Mono
    7 XCA: UK Columbia 7", 45, Mono
    7 XCB: Italy Columbia 7", 45, Mono
    7 XCC: Denmark Columbia 7", 45, Mono
    7 XCE: UK Parlophone 7", 45, Mono
    7 XCEA: South Africa Columbia 7", 45, Mono
    7 XCEI: India Columbia, 7", 45, Mono (< # 5000) ~1965
    7 XCEI: Hongkong Columbia, 7", 45, Mono (> # 4999) ~1965
    7 XCF: Holland Columbia 7", 45, Mono
    7 XCG: Geece Columbia 7", 45, Mono
    7 XCH: Austria Columbia, 7", 45, Mono, foreign repertoire
    7 XCHA: Austria Columbia, 7", 45, Mono, own repertoire
    7 XCHI: Chile Odeon, 7", EP, 45, Mono, foreign repertoire
    7 XCK: Spain Columbia / Regal, 7", 45, Mono
    7 XCL: France Columbia 7", 45, Mono
    7 XCLB: Belgium Columbia, 7", 45, Mono
    7 XCLN: Norway Odeon, 7", 45, Mono
    7 XCM: France Columbia 7", 45, Mono
    7 XCN: Norway Columbia 7", 45, Mono
    7 XCO: Turkey Odeon 7", 45, Mono
    7 XCP: Portugal Columbia 7", 45, Mono
    7 XCS: Denmark HMV 7", 45, Mono
    7 XCT: Australia Columbia, 7", 45, Mono
    7 XCVO: LB Parlophone, 7", 45, Mono
    7 XCWN: New Zealand Columbia, 7", 45, Mono
    7 XEA: UK HMV 7", 45, Mono
    7 XEF: UK / Lebanon HMV 7", 45, Mono
    7 XFA: Holland HMV 7", 45, Mono
    7 XGA: Greece HMV 7", 45, Mono
    7 XGO: Greece Odeon 7", 45, Mono
    7 XKA: Spain HMV 7", 45, Mono
    7 XKP: Denmark Odeon, 7", 45, Mono
    7 XLA: France HMV 7", 45, Mono
    7 XLB: Belgium HMV 7", 45, Mono
    7 XLV: France HMV 7", 45, Mono
    7 XPA: Hongkong Pathé, 7", 45, Mono
    7 XPC: Portugal HMV 7", 45, Mono
    7 XPEI: India Parlophone, 7", 45, Mono (- 1965)
    7 XPEI: Hongkong Odeon, 7", 45, Mono (> 1965)
    7 XRR: UK Columbia 7", 45, Mono
    7 XS: Sweden Columbia 7", 45, Mono
    7 XSB: Sweden HMV 7", 45, Mono
    7 XSIN: Singapore HMV, 7", 45, Mono
    7 XST: Sweden Odeon, 7", 45, Mono
    7 XTZ: Turkey Columbia 7", 45, Mono
    7 XVH: Austria HMV, 7", 45, Mono
    7 XWN: New Zealand Columbia 7", 45, Mono
    7 XZ: Switzerland Columbia 7", 45, Mono
    7 XZA: Switzerland HMV 7", 45, Mono
    7 YCE: UK Parlophone 7", 45, Stereo

    International 10" codes
    0 XAA: Australia HMV, 10", 33, Mono
    0 XAV: UK HMV, 10", 33, Mono
    0 XCS: Denmark HMV, 10", 33, Mono
    0 XEA: UK HMV 10", 33, Mono
    0 XFA: Holland HMV, 10", 33, Mono
    0 XLA: France HMV 10", 33, Mono
    0 XLV: France HMV 10", 33, Mono
    0 XSB: Sweden HMV, 10", 33, Mono
    0 XVH: Austria HMV, 10", 33, Mono
    0 XZA: Switzerland HMV, 10", 33, Mono
    0 YCS: Denmark HMV, 10", 33, Stereo

    X: Italy Parlophone, 10", Mono
    XA: UK Columbia, 10", Mono
    XB: Italy Columbia 10", 33, Mono
    XCEI: India Columbia, 10", Mono
    XCF: Holland Columbia, 10", 33, Mono
    XE: UK Parlophone, 10", 33, Mono
    XPA: Australia Parlophone, 10", 33, Mono
    XPEI: India Odeon 10", Mono
    XZ: Switzerland Columbia, 10", Mono

    International LP codes
    2 XAA: AU HMV, LP, Mono
    2 XAV: UK HMV, LP, Mono
    2 XBA: IT HMV LP, Mono
    2 XCS: DK HMV, LP, Mono
    2 XEA: UK HMV, LP, Mono
    2 XFA: NL HMV, LP, Mono
    2 XJE: IN HMV, LP, Mono
    2 XLA: FR HMV LP, Mono
    2 XLB: BE HMV, LP, Mono
    2 XLV: FR HMV LP, Mono
    2 XRA: DE Columbia, LP, Mono
    2 XSB: SW HMV, LP, Mono
    2 XVH: AUT HMV, LP, Mono
    2 XZA: CH HMV, LP, Mono
    2 YAA: AU HMV, LP, Stereo
    2 YBA: IT HMV LP, Stereo
    2 YCS: DK HMV, LP, Stereo
    2 YEA: UK HMV, LP, Stereo
    2 YFA: NL HMV, LP, Stereo
    2 YJE: IN HMV, LP, Stereo
    2 YRA: AU Columbia, LP, Stereo

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Edit trail:
    21.11.2017: Gone online.
    23.11.2017: Edit trail added, and some adjustments.
    28.11.2017: Added Capitol. Added international 7" codes.
    24.01.2018: Adjusted / added some international 7" codes. Added to findings and introduction.
    26.02.2018: Added 10" and 12" findings.
    24.10.2018: Added "7 YCE" for UK Parlophone 7", 45, Stereo.
    14.03.2019: Added international LP codes
  • velove about 1 year ago

    Thanks for putting all the work into compiling this info. Have read and bookmarked it as reference.

    Can the cat# ranges be used for inferring years or only in the negative sense to show eg that it's a reissue?
  • sebfact about 1 year ago

    velove
    Can the cat# ranges be used for inferring years or only in the negative sense to show eg that it's a reissue?
    Certainly not usable for dating releases but shall serve as a rough indicator to at least correct "fancy" dates. I've tried to research this as thoroughly as possible but have seen so many surprises with other companies that I wouldn't be shocked to find out that it isn't April '57 but March or May. This thread lives from collaboration :-)

    Secure however is the September 1958 threshold. Any release bearing a J / C / O / E / M ## #### cat.no. (on a sticker or printed) cannot be from earlier than that.
  • Abdelfauda about 1 year ago

    Congratulations and many thanks for this brilliant & detailled work. My appreciation is fully expressed.

    If I understood it correctly the appearance of these matrix numbers qualifies for a Pressed By-entry for Carl Lindström GmbH.

    sebfact
    7 XCR 50449-1 / 7 XCA 32217-2 (combination of German and Austrian matrix)

    I suppose 7 XCA is the Austrian matrix. Afaics 7XCA appears mainly on Columbia UK cuts.
    Is it safe to select the format-label identifiers listed en bloc above for lacquer cutting, too?
  • sebfact about 1 year ago

    Abdelfauda
    I suppose 7 XCA is the Austrian matrix.
    XCA was Columbia UK.
    AFAICS, the Austrian matrices are
    7 XCHA = Columbia, 7", 45
    7 TCHA = Columbia, 7", EP, 45
    XHAX = Columbia, LP, Mono
    YHAX = Columbia, LP, Stereo
    0 XVH = HMV, 10", 33, Mono
    2 XVH = HMV, LP, Mono
    7 XVH = HMV, 7", 45
    7 TVH = HMV, 7", EP, 45
    Parlophone usually was repertoire from the UK (7 XCE), except 7 TPL which was a 7" EP, 45, Mono (but with Odeon number), and Odeon was usually repertoire from Germany (7 XBE).

    Abdelfauda
    Is it safe to select the format-label identifiers listed en bloc above for lacquer cutting, too?
    I'd be very cautious with that because you can find 7XCE matrices also in e.g. NL, Italy, Australia, Congo and Japan. I have no clue if Cologne sent around the lacquers for local pressing or if the 7XCE may stand for more.

    Abdelfauda
    If I understood it correctly the appearance of these matrix numbers qualifies for a Pressed By-entry for Carl Lindström GmbH.
    Yes, indeed.
  • Abdelfauda about 1 year ago

    sebfact
    I'd be very cautious with that because you can find 7XCE matrices also in e.g. NL, Italy, Australia, Congo and Japan.


    7XCE...you said that is Parlophone...but CE is not listed above for Carl Lindström GmbH anyway. Is it cautious enough to say that German 7" repertoire with 3- and 4-digit matrix numbers and label code BE, CR, KC, and RA was cut there?

    Is the list of manufactured labels already complete, i.e. does that mean that other Electrola GesmbH distributed labels like Capitol Records or Parlophone or - on the other hand - order pressings for e.g. Cornet GmbH & Co. KG will require a different Pressed By-entry?
  • Holobiont about 1 year ago

    Abdelfauda
    Congratulations and many thanks for this brilliant & detailled work


    Thank you very much sebfact.
    Nice that we can hopefully can go forward with it.
  • sebfact about 1 year ago

    Abdelfauda
    7XCE...you said that is Parlophone...but CE is not listed above for Carl Lindström GmbH anyway.
    XCE is for Parlophone England.
    ATM I still try to figure out the interconnections between the various EMI related plants. Pre-WW II the matrix numbers were assigned centrally in Berlin but cut and pressed locally. This was definitely the case for the UK, France, and Sweden. I am rather sure that this was discontinued during / after the war even though the matrix number system stayed.

    Abdelfauda
    Is it cautious enough to say that German 7" repertoire with 3- and 4-digit matrix numbers and label code BE, CR, KC, and RA was cut there?
    Yes, the German label identifiers stem from the Lindström plants in Berlin and Cologne.
  • Abdelfauda about 1 year ago

    sebfact
    Abdelfauda
    Is it cautious enough to say that German 7" repertoire with 3- and 4-digit matrix numbers and label code BE, CR, KC, and RA was cut there?
    Yes, the German label identifiers stem from the Lindström plants in Berlin and Cologne.


    OK, then I proceed with my 7"s meeting these specifications, assinging Cut At/Pressed By, for 5-digit numbers Pressed By.

    What is interesting is the fact that Carl Lindström GmbH was
    sebfact
    sharing premises with the Electrola Gesellschaft m.b.H. at Maarweg 149.

    from September 1953 until November 30th, 1972.
    Optically you cannot distinguish those 7" pressings, so how could it be handled for other Electrola GesmbH-distributed labels than those above mentioned like e.g. Capitol Records?
    Do they require a Pressed By - Carl Lindström GmbH entry or a Pressed By - Electrola Gesellschaft m.b.H. entry?
    I can feel a problem arising allocating credits to a facility that was used by two different companies.
  • sebfact about 1 year ago

    sebfact edited about 1 year ago
    Abdelfauda
    Do they require a Pressed By - Carl Lindström GmbH entry or a Pressed By - Electrola Gesellschaft m.b.H. entry?
    Lindström was responsible for recording, mastering, pressing and packaging, while Electrola was responsible for design, A&R, distribution, etc. So, it has to be Pressed By - Carl Lindström GmbH until the merger of the two companies.

    Abdelfauda
    Capitol Records?
    Capitol was distributed and pressed by TELDEC until December 1956. Since 1 January 1957 Electrola distributed Capitol so that is also when Lindström started to press.

    Data on Discogs is ambiguous but obviously Lindström took over the Capitol matrix system, CAP-45 ##### from TELDEC and only changed the cat# system from TELDEC's CF to Electrola's F, and after 1960 to K ## ###. Anyway, the manufacturer is usually stated on the labels.

    Edit: changed from 1958 to 1960 for K numbers.
  • Holobiont about 1 year ago

    Here are too examples from my collection.
    As far as i understand for now.;)

    Chris Howland - Hämmerchen-Polka
    Pressed By – Electrola Gesellschaft m.b.H. to
    Pressed By – Carl Lindström GmbH CR 1164
    Pressed By – Carl Lindström GmbH CR 1165
    With or without label identifiers CR here?

    Camillo Felgen - Ich Hab' Das Glück Bestellt Für Heute Abend / Bleib' Bei Mir
    Pressed By – Carl Lindström GmbH RA 2698
    Pressed By – Carl Lindström GmbH RA 2699
    With or without label identifiers RA here?

    IMO it would make more sense to add them without the label identifiers so that we get them all.

    Here i have an interesting record in my collection.
    Edwin Starr - Who Is The Leader Of The People
    Seems to be a november/december 1972 pressing.
    First appearing of EMI Electrola and the cat# numbers 1 C 006-XX XXX
    Still Electrola Gesellschaft m.b.H. on rear cover but IMO pressed by EMI Electrola GmbH
    because of the typical 93 818 A - 1 runouts.
  • Abdelfauda about 1 year ago

    sebfact
    So, it has to be Pressed By - Carl Lindström GmbH until the merger of the two companies.


    Perfect, that's what I wanted to know.

    Holobiont
    First appearing of EMI Electrola and the cat# numbers 1 C 006-XX XXX
    Still Electrola Gesellschaft m.b.H. on rear cover but IMO pressed by EMI Electrola GmbH
    because of the typical 93 818 A - 1 runouts.


    1C 006-xx xxx numbers appeared already in 1969. The practice of including "1C" into the runout stamp was abandoned in early 1971 tvl., after that the 'typical' runouts appear.
    Imho the additional EMI Electrola brand was introduced shortly before the company name was changed to EMI Electrola GmbH. As far as I understood it, all releases still stating Electrola Gesellschaft m.b.H. should get a Pressed By - Carl Lindström GmbH entry, only when EMI Electrola GmbH appears on the release instead, the Pressed By-entry will go to EMI Electrola GmbH.
  • kraftberg about 1 year ago

    sebfact
    2. Label identifiers are:
    AV = RCA
    BE = Odeon
    CR = Columbia
    KC = Imperial
    RA = Electrola
    SM = MGM Records


    Have found a Electrola / His Master's Voice release that has not RA as ID rather EA / BA. What does it mean?

    Bert Weedon Und I Barimar's - Napoli Melody / Walking
    7 XEA 20198
    7 XBA 10717
  • sebfact about 1 year ago

    kraftberg
    7 XEA 20198
    That's from a UK HMV 7", 45, Mono
    kraftberg
    7 XBA 10717
    That's from an Italian HMV 7", 45, Mono

    I will add the "international" 7" codes later today.
  • Abdelfauda about 1 year ago

    first of all a big thank you
    found one tiny error in the list so far; please correct
    sebfact
    7 TCKP: PK Columbia 7", EP, 45, Mono

    into:
    7 TCKP: PG Columbia 7", EP, 45, Mono (if PG means Portugal)
  • Abdelfauda about 1 year ago

    My question is now:
    shall we enter
    1) just 'Lacquer Cut At' or 'Pressed By', making the release catalog number appear on the Lindström profile
    or
    2) additionally the runout numbers into the LCCN field
    i.e.
    Lacquer Cut At - Carl Lindström GmbH - XCR 3457
    Lacquer Cut At - Carl Lindström GmbH - XCR 3458
    Pressed By - Carl Lindström GmbH - XCR 3457
    Pressed By - Carl Lindström GmbH - XCR 3458

    If 2), how to handle foreign repertoire?

    Pressed By - Carl Lindström GmbH - XEA 20198
    Pressed By - Carl Lindström GmbH - XBA 10717

    Referring to the international 7" codes: If such a code appears on a Lindström pressing, i.e. The War Lord / I Wish I Could Shimmy Like My Sister Arthur, does that mean that
    a) the lacquer was cut at The Gramophone Co. Ltd. and the lacquer or a mother was sent to Germany for pressing?
    b) the international E.M.I. recording catalogue number of recording A was 7XCA 28355, of recording B was 7XCA 28356 and both 7" sides were cut at Carl Lindström GmbH? Same would apply for 7 XEA 20198 (A) and 7XBA 10717 (B)?

    Finding a unified method of entry will be important!
  • Holobiont about 1 year ago

    Yes also again a big thanks to you.
  • Holobiont about 1 year ago

    We have to take care about Columbia Stateside also.
  • Abdelfauda about 1 year ago

    Holobiont
    We have to take care about Columbia Stateside also.


    Initially same as Capitol Records - foreign repertoire:
    until 1964
    (I)-45-KR-xxxx
    (I)-45-S-xxxx
    (I)-45-xxxx
    (xxxx=3xxx-4xxx)

    then identical to German Columbia releases as above
    1964 - April 1969
    7 XCR 50 xxx

    April 1969 - 1970
    1C 006-xx xxxx

    no releases thereafter.
  • Abdelfauda about 1 year ago

    not forgetting to mention Cornet....
  • Holobiont about 1 year ago

    You can provide info.I can provide records. lol. Paul McCartney - Ebony And Ivory ;)
    Yeah. Cornet are also on my radar.... All of you have a good start in the next week.
  • Loanesloan about 1 year ago

    I don't quite understand the changes that are being made in a mass-edit to some related Releases here:
    Phil Cantlay With The Gaslight-Union* - Do The Kasaboo
    Charly Antolini - Charly's New Drums
    Roland W. - Monja (and many others)

    These are Cornet cat#s, right?
    Why are they entered into the Carl Lindström GmbH lccn fields?

    I always thought we didn't enter such matrices into the pressed by fields unless they were specific to that plant (and not also the Label)

    And why are Releases updated massively without changing the Carl Lindström GmbH profile first?
  • Loanesloan about 1 year ago

    I can't see that anyone here has given a positive Response to this:
    Abdelfauda
    2) additionally the runout numbers into the LCCN field
    i.e.
  • Abdelfauda about 1 year ago

    Loanesloan
    in a mass-edit to


    Loanesloan
    And why are Releases updated massively


    Don't panic - I just corrected releases in my collection, in all cases except 2 I replaced the Electrola Gesellschaft m.b.H. pressing credit with the correct one.

    Loanesloan
    I can't see that anyone here has given a positive Response to this:

    I can't see that anyone has given a reasonable response to this, neither positive nor negative.

    Loanesloan
    Why are they entered into the Carl Lindström GmbH lccn fields?


    it has a simple methodic advantage: all orders pressed for Cornet GmbH & Co. Kg will apppear en bloc on the Lindström profile, clearly defined as such by prefix COR. like prefixes XCR, XCA and dozens of other prefixes.
    Loanesloan
    I always thought we didn't enter such matrices into the pressed by fields unless they were specific to that plant (and not also the Label)


    3512 is the sequential cat number of label Cornet, COR 3512 is the number in the order books of the manufacturer Carl Lindström GmbH. They would have done hard only with plain 4-digit numbers, especially because their own cutting sequence, e.g. XRA 3119 mentioned above, had been very similar.
  • jweijde about 1 year ago

    Abdelfauda
    3512 is the sequential cat number of label Cornet, COR 3512 is the number in the order books of the manufacturer Carl Lindström GmbH. T


    Where do you get that from ?
    I've quickly read through this topic, but it seems that nobody but you has proposed that data entry method. I see no reason why the catalog number of a release should be repeated for a manufacturer.
    Loanesloan
    I always thought we didn't enter such matrices into the pressed by fields unless they were specific to that plant (and not also the Label)


    That's my understanding aswell.
  • mrformic about 1 year ago

    sebfact
    This is a work in progress thread


    Then why do people start to make edits ?
    https://www.discogs.com/release/4085230-Do-The-Kasaboo/history?utm_campaign=release-update&utm_medium=pm&utm_source=relationship#latest

    I really love this kind of research, but I have problems with the data they (seem to) produce.
    The reason is simple:
    A matrix scheme of company XY does not mean, that another company can't use a similar matrix.
    Every person can order to produce records and use a certain matrix.
    For example, I can order a release from pressing plant XY and tell them to use
    7 TBE 50014
    as matrix.
    Someone reads this thread (Or Carl Lindström profile) and my release will say:
    Odeon 7”, EP, 45 rpm, Mono, foreign repertoire.
    But it's not.

    No one controls matrix schemes, you can choose whatever you like.
    Plus:
    I can't verify any of the data provided. All I can do is "believe" it, or I can guess its OK.
    And you know, how we treat guessed data on Discogs. We don't use it.
    "Pressed by" and likewise fields are not mandatory.

    It reminds me on the Sonopress desaster. The database is still polluted with wrong edits.
    Yes, Sonopress often used "Made in Germany" in matrix, but everybody could do so as well. And now users add "Sonopress", whenever they find "Made In Germany" matrices.
  • Loanesloan about 1 year ago

    Abdelfauda
    3512 is the sequential cat number of label Cornet, COR 3512 is the number in the order books of the manufacturer Carl Lindström GmbH.


    As far as i have seen this decided upon for other pressing plants so far, we only assign sequential numbers to a plant when it's an internal working number, i.e. when the plant has assigned itself a specific Matrix to the release it's pressing.
    And we don't add such a number, if it's identical with the cat# that has been assigned to the release by the Label.

    That's what has been agreed upon for Sonopress for example (and many others) and i don't see why we should handle this differently here, despite your wish to have it
    Abdelfauda
    apppear en bloc on the Lindström profile
    .

    Btw:
    Abdelfauda
    I can't see that anyone has given a reasonable response to this, neither positive nor negative.


    Just because nobody has given a negative response within two days, that doesn't mean that you can feel yourself authorized to edit away ;)

    And i don't understand either why f.ex. on Phil Cantlay With The Gaslight-Union* - Do The Kasaboo, the same scheme was used for a lacquer cut credit and field, although

    sebfact
    Abdelfauda: "Is it safe to select the format-label identifiers listed en bloc above for lacquer cutting, too?"
    I'd be very cautious with that because you can find 7XCE matrices also in e.g. NL, Italy, Australia, Congo and Japan. I have no clue if Cologne sent around the lacquers for local pressing or if the 7XCE may stand for more.
  • sebfact about 1 year ago

    Sorry for slow response times, I am ill ATM and have to stay in bed...
  • sebfact about 1 year ago

    One thing: Please do not start adding this plant before we have figured out the exact roles and the way we enter the numbers. I haven't looked at Cornet altogether yet, so this should be discussed first.
  • mrformic about 1 year ago

    sebfact
    Please do not start adding this plant before we have figured out the exact roles and the way we enter the numbers


    All edits based on this thread are technically EI.
    There you go, the damage is already done. People are making edits, god knows how many.
    And nobody can confirm them, there is NO source anywhere - besides this thread.
    A thread made by you, privatly. You don't give a single source, besides that you spoke with people.. A valid source ?

    Get well soon.
  • jweijde about 1 year ago

    jweijde edited about 1 year ago
    Abdelfauda
    3512 is the sequential cat number of label Cornet, COR 3512 is the number in the order books of the manufacturer Carl Lindström GmbH.


    Loanesloan
    As far as i have seen this decided upon for other pressing plants so far, we only assign sequential numbers to a plant when it's an internal working number, i.e. when the plant has assigned itself a specific Matrix to the release it's pressing.
    And we don't add such a number, if it's identical with the cat# that has been assigned to the release by the Label.


    Exactly:
    RSG §4.7.2. "For other companies on the release, leave the catalog number field blank, unless there is a sequential identifying number that relates directly to the company."

    If it's the same as the catalog number, then it does not relate directly to the company it has been entered for.
    mrformic
    All edits based on this thread are technically EI.


    Yes, these edits are Entirely Incorrect based on the guidelines.
  • Abdelfauda about 1 year ago

    reverted those where claim was made. but at least more and experienced participants show up here...to be honset I wanted to lure you into this thread by making these edits, knowing what is going to happen, honestly ;-))
    Loanesloan
    And we don't add such a number, if it's identical with the cat# that has been assigned to the release by the Label.


    on the one hand we enter 1 C 006-xx xxx and 1C 006-xx xxx as two separate catalogue numbers, on the other hand you refuse to acknowledge that COR was used by the manufacturer to differentiate between 'labels'/'product groups', same as 01- and 19- in Haarlem. In one case it's letters, in the other it's numbers but the systems multi-label-manufacturers used is basically the same. Otherwise a plain 4-digit numbering system like the one Cornet used would have interfered with other sequences at Lindström/E.M.I.
    I appreciate the possibilities of entering LCCN numbers for the benefit of their exact allocation.

    sebfact
    Sorry for slow response times, I am ill ATM and have to stay in bed...


    Get well soon...!
  • mrformic about 1 year ago

    Abdelfauda
    I wanted to lure you into this thread by making these edits


    That is a very questionable tactic.
    Honestly, wrong submissions on purpose ?
    And others see it and follow you ?
    Damaging the database on purpose is called vandalism.
    Honestly.... do you need to visit CIP ?

    Abdelfauda
    reverted those where claim was made.


    And now you revert those without claim as well. Thank you.
  • GroovingPict about 1 year ago

    International codes: 7XCLN and 7TCLN seems to have been used for Norwegian Odeon releases (regular mono single and EP respectively). See "Norske diskografier. Nr. 16: Odeon 1958-1968" by Tom Valle as a reference: https://www.nb.no/nbsok/nb/70d265757d93670a27a65486a9044e7d (may need to have a Norwegian IP to be able to access it, Im not sure). It's a complete discography of Norwegian 7" Odeon releases in the year range in the title, and they all have those prefixes in the matrixes.
  • Holobiont about 1 year ago

    sebfact

    Whats about the 1C 006-xx xxx numbers between 1969 - 1972 were the cat# are identical to the matrix.

    We know that they were pressed by Carl Lindström GmbH.

    So ain't the releases between 1969 - 1972 outsourced from this thread?
  • sebfact about 1 year ago

    Needed some time to boil down. Literally.

    mrformic
    There you go, the damage is already done. People are making edits, god knows how many.
    And nobody can confirm them, there is NO source anywhere - besides this thread.
    A thread made by you, privatly. You don't give a single source, besides that you spoke with people.. A valid source ?
    Wow. You obviously haven't read the whole thread.

    I didn't endorse adding numbers to the LCCN but that's obviously something like "the spirits I called". I have merely proven that the German pressing plant for records from certain EMI distributed labels in Germany wasn't EMI Electrola GmbH as believed before. Hence on a great deal of subs here there are wrong company credits. Alas!, obviously not an improvement. So, under certain described conditions, a Pressed By role is indeed valid. Adding numbers and prefixes is still under discussion - and a lot is still unclear.

    I have spoken to a guy having worked at the former Lindström plant and he confirmed / clarified most of what I have found in my analyses. That isn't rocket science once you know the methodology. Generally, the Lindström matrices are pretty well documented on the web, but only to a certain extend and not so much after WW II / for Electrola.

    Generally, it gets boring being asked for valid sources etc. every time despite knowing that, for vinyl pressing plants, there literally aren't any documents available anymore. Most of the recording documents, masters, etc. of Electrola Cologne were sent to Hayes. And Hayes haven't had any better to do than dumping everything after they got rid of the vinyl division. At least we have eyewitness statements, which are allowed by the RSG, BTW (but usually overlooked by some people here as a general push-back). Elvis is dead. Source? Death Certificate. Not valid because not confirmed by Elvis.

    GroovingPict
    7XCLN and 7TCLN
    Added, thanks
  • Loanesloan about 1 year ago

    mrformic
    All edits based on this thread are technically EI.
    There you go, the damage is already done. People are making edits, god knows how many.


    Continuing mass-edits: https://www.discogs.com/user/Holobiont/submissions and begging for c&c votes from buddies along the way - have commented on about 30 of them...
  • mrformic about 1 year ago

    sebfact
    it gets boring being asked for valid sources


    Get used to it, as long you make people add data not mentioned on release.

    sebfact
    I have spoken to a guy having worked at the former Lindström plant and he confirmed / clarified most of what I have found in my analyses.

    I doubt that anyone, even a guy who worked there, can remember so many complicate details.
    After decades.
    Anyway, this is not my main point.

    "A matrix scheme of company XY does not mean, that another company can't use a similar matrix.
    Every person can order to produce records and use a certain matrix.
    For example, I can order a release from pressing plant XY and tell them to use
    7 TBE 50014
    as matrix.
    Someone reads this thread (Or Carl Lindström profile) and my release will say:
    Odeon 7”, EP, 45 rpm, Mono, foreign repertoire.
    But it's not. "

    Your research is great, but IMO not good enough to produce data on Discogs.
    As of now, regarding Lindström, you have caused many EI edits.
  • Holobiont about 1 year ago

    Holobiont
    So ain't the releases between 1969 - 1972 outsourced from this thread?


    It's evidently something totally different.
  • mrformic about 1 year ago

    Loanesloan
    begging for c&c votes from buddies along the way


    Really ? Not again....we had this before. Sonopress buddyvoting desaster....
    If you have proof, please do not leave comments, but leave EI votes instead. This must be stopped.
  • Holobiont about 1 year ago

    Holobiont edited about 1 year ago
    double post
  • mrformic about 1 year ago

    I know that is not allowed to add data not mentioned on release without providing a valid source.
    All of your edits are EI.
  • bbm54 about 1 year ago

    mrformic
    Then why do people start to make edits ?


    That's what I also asked myself, seeing all update notifications and thought, if I missed something.
    This thread, I missed but thanks to Loanesloan to give this reference!

    sebfact
    I didn't endorse adding numbers to the LCCN but that's obviously something like "the spirits I called".


    Maybe it would be a good idea of writing this down in the first paragraph on the summary on top. What is fine ad wht in discussion so far.

    mrformic
    as long you make people add data not mentioned on release


    Actually management doesn't give a good role model for this, regarding price and distribution code entry without proper definition...

    sebfact
    Generally, it gets boring being asked for valid sources etc. every time despite knowing that, for vinyl pressing plants, there literally aren't any documents available anymore.


    A shame, that a valid source seems to be for some of us identical with a source available online. The majority of secondary data is still offline and no-one in science will ever base his research purely on online-sources

    Maybe a good idea to put a little trust in those users, who spend incredible time of their life in starting threads like this.
    Personally, I would never hesitate to have a different opinion on sebfact's interpretation of guideline, but I would always trust in the facts from his sources, which are not accessible to me.

    Very interesting thread, though, and hopefully it will make its way.

    Please do stop these edits unless we have a minimum consensus, one step after another,

    Cheers bbm
  • Loanesloan about 1 year ago

    bbm54
    Personally, I would never hesitate to have a different opinion on sebfact's interpretation of guideline, but I would always trust in the facts from his sources, which are not accessible to me.

    Very interesting thread, though, and hopefully it will make its way.

    Please do stop these edits unless we have a minimum consensus, one step after another,


    I can fully agree on all three points
  • mrformic about 1 year ago

    bbm54
    Maybe a good idea to put a little trust in those users, who spend incredible time of their life in starting threads like this.


    Don't get me wrong please, I fully respect this work.
    But even if I trust it blindly, the question remains:
    Is it a valid source for Discogs ?
    The strcuture and guidelines of this database is one thing, my personal feeling is something different.
    I think this question is important and should be discussed - like all data not mentioned on release.
  • Holobiont about 1 year ago

    I revert my edits for now. Independently of that this records were pressed by Carl Lindström GmbH. Peace and let's come back to a relexed discussion.
  • Holobiont about 1 year ago

    By decision
    from 08.09.1953 the company headquarters moved from Berlin to Cologne
    Braunsfeld, Maarweg 149.
    Under the same address also worked the Electrola G.m.b.H.
    A division of labor was later made between the two companies.
    Recording and press operations were made by Carl Lindström GmbH.
    Distribution of records and artist engagements by the Electrola G.m.b.H.

    This can be read in several sources.
  • Abdelfauda about 1 year ago

    mrformic
    Honestly, wrong submissions on purpose ?


    they are not wrong per assumption, they need to be discussed. However I completely reverted all pressing plant entries to zero on all cornet releases. but you are all here and we can now have a relaxed discussion about the history, origin and use of the codes and which method of entry will result in the most precise allocation of data.

    I am still in favour of determining the reason why and by whom a number was assigned to the release in question and in which function it was used. was it embedded in / derived from the sequence / schema of:
    the label
    the licenser/(p)-owner
    the mastering studio/galvanisation,
    the overall manufacturer,
    the distributor

    For the mid-1960s Lindström/E.M.I. System we see a 3-letter format/label prefix (XCA, TBE, COR etc.) and 3- to 5-digit sequences of recordings, depending on the source of the material. That's what can be safely extracted from data available.
  • mrformic about 1 year ago

    Abdelfauda
    For the mid-1960s Lindström/E.M.I. System we see a 3-letter format/label prefix (XCA, TBE, COR etc.) and 3- to 5-digit sequences of recordings, depending on the source of the material. That's what can be safely extracted from data available.


    OK. Let's say you are right (I don't know).
    What if other labels or releases used similar matrices ?
    I am a seller and I search for catnumbers and matrices very often.
    I get multiple results all the time.
    A cat# or a matrix isn't allowed as source for release year on Discogs, but it should be allowed as source for a company ?
    Maybe some other users want to join in and let us know their opinion. I think I made my POV clear now.
  • Holobiont about 1 year ago

    sebfact
    Pressed By role is indeed valid. Adding numbers and prefixes is still under discussion - and a lot is still unclear.


    This^^^^

    So now are 1C 006-xx xxx numbers between 1969 - 1972 where the cat# are identical to the matrix outsourced from this thread?
  • Abdelfauda about 1 year ago

    Holobiont


    So now are 1C 006-xx xxx numbers between 1969 - 1972 where the cat# are identical to the matrix outsourced from this thread?


    At least there is no difference between matrix number and catalogue number which makes a discussion about entering something into the LCCN field unnecessary. But it still has to be confirmed by the participants if the sole Pressed By entry for Carl Lindström GmbH for these 1C 006-xx xxx between April 1969 and November 1972 releases is considered as valid.

    Considering the facts presented initially - that Carl Lindström GmbH was the manufacturing 'partner' of Electrola GesmbH, sharing premises until their fusion into EMI Electrola GmbH - and that their 7" records have a characteristic and unique appearance (the infamous prongs and usually 81mm label diameter) I consider it as safe to enter Carl Lindström GmbH as pressing plant for the releases in question after thorough inspection and if all properties match requirements.
    A reasoned +1.
  • Holobiont about 1 year ago

    Abdelfauda
    Considering the facts presented initially - that Carl Lindström GmbH was the manufacturing 'partner' of Electrola GesmbH


    + 1
  • bbm54 about 1 year ago

    mrformic
    I think this question is important and should be discussed - like all data not mentioned on release.


    Fine with it, nice to see the ongoing discussion, but how to discuss others personal contacts?

    I came across this topic and I know from past discussions, that there is a lot of knowledge about this era.
    I learned a lot from Abdelfauda and sebfact, who did not only research, but also empirical statistics on quite a lot of releases.

    Maybe it is a good idea to ping two other protagonists with great background kraftberg and tarantoga
  • mrformic about 1 year ago

    bbm54
    but how to discuss others personal contacts


    Yes, good question. We can't. All we can do is trust. But trust is not very different to guessing, right ?
    And once we "trust", it will have huge effect on database. We are talking about 1000s of releases, more likely 10.000s.
    bbm54
    Maybe it is a good idea to ping two other protagonists


    Why not, but those 2 belong to the "pressing plant science club" as well. They will support the idea. I hope some others users will join in.
    bbm54
    I learned a lot from Abdelfauda

    Who did a mass edit, which had to be reverted today.
  • 7ii about 1 year ago

    bbm54
    Maybe a good idea to put a little trust in those users, who spend incredible time of their life in starting threads like this. Personally, I would never hesitate to have a different opinion on sebfact's interpretation of guideline, but I would always trust in the facts from his sources, which are not accessible to me.

    I fully agree! And thx to sebfact for your incredible work! Hope, that you're well again. If we want to make steps foreward, we cannot send every source personally to the chief doubters here, to get their "valid source" stamp. And after overviewing the researching contributions of sebfact, I really don't get the impression, that he's interested in the distribution of nonsense without any sufficient approval.
  • bbm54 about 1 year ago

    mrformic
    And once we "trust", it will have huge effect on database. We are talking about 1000s of releases, more likely 10.000s


    7ii
    we cannot send every source personally to the chief doubters here, to get their "valid source" stamp.


    Finally it is important to accept some causal chain, else we will fall into the philosophical discussion of the infinite regress, which means, we can always cast doubt on the written without generating any fact. Some kind of existentialism, which will unfortunately disrupt the activities.

    As holding a PhD in natural sciences, my experience on facts is roughly as follows:

    - A theory will ever start with a rough description and will go later to improvement due to exceptions. However, exceptions will not stop the theory and the theory itself will not be neglected due to exceptions
    (Example: The general quantum theory was not discarded due to further knowledge on relativistic effects of the Dirac theory . Means, many facts are still based on the simple quantum theory and no-one would consider it to be incorrect)
    - Almost all scientific data is based on empirical studies. Any empirical studies do contain many errors and assumptions. Anyway, scientific measurements are accepted to generate scientific facts
    - Mathematics is based on Axioms which cannot be proved. Discarding those axioms we would have to neglect any mathematical facts. We would have to cast doubt even on things like 1 + 1 = 2
    - Sources are important in science, but nobody would expect, that sources are available anytime for anyone. It is important to list them, in order to make it possible for somebody who wants to check them. In certain fields, sources are only accessible for a small number of people, e.g. by deciphering old persian documents. When publishing, a board of same-interested scientists is evaluating the publication in order to check plausibility, but this board will not redo the work of the publishing person.
    - For example, the source discussion done in the way, we do it, would stop all research about the Roman empire, as nobody will be able to ask Julius Caesar for the real facts and primary literature is mostly written in Latin and only limited to a few access points.

    This is, what we should be aware of, when we try to find solutions here. I can understand mrformic's feeling anyway, but then it is important to find some agreement in proceeding instead of building blocks. Also to appreciate the work done so far.

    -End of philosophical pleading ;)
  • mrformic about 1 year ago

    7ii
    to make steps foreward


    bbm54
    try to find solutions


    Pressed by is not missing anywhere, its not a mandatory field. Complicated science or wild guessing - whatever it is, its not missing and not a solution, as there is no problem.
    It seems, besides a handful of pressing plant scientists, noone is really interested.
    And I can fully understand. It is 2 complicated. A quick look at the OT ahhhh, no, not that again.
    I have asked 5 times now, one last try:
    What is your answer to the fact, that matrices are not controlled by anyone. The database is FULL of matrices which were used for mutiple completly different releases.
  • mrformic about 1 year ago

    bbm54
    - Sources are important in science, but nobody would expect, that sources are available anytime for anyone.


    Yes, right. And if there is no valid source, we leave the field blank. This is Discogs and the pressed by field is not mandatory. We want to build a database for recorded SOUNDS.
  • tarantoga about 1 year ago

    bbm54
    Maybe it is a good idea to ping two other protagonists with great background kraftberg and tarantoga

    Thanks for the invite, but I actually don't feel knowledgable enough with this pressing plant to contribute something of real interest here.

    Only thing I noticed while browsing through this thread:
    aren't those matrix prefixes (7 TRA, 7 TYCR, etc.) assigned at the lacquer cutting or master tape stage of the production process?
    If so, can we really use them as an indicator for the pressing plant?
    Metal parts can be send to other pressing facilities, you know.

    Great research by sebfact anyway!
  • bbm54 about 1 year ago

    mrformic
    What is your answer to the fact, that matrices are not controlled by anyone. The database is FULL of matrices which were used for mutiple completly different releases.


    I wonder, if this is really a fact. Surely matrices were controlled by pressing and/or manufacturing entities. Maybe there are exceptions, but to generalize is not a good way.
    I also wonder why you are insisting on facts from people who don't share your opinion, while you suppose your opinion being a fact by itself.

    The so-called "Sonopress-disaster" is, if I guess, what you meant with, based on the incorrect interpretation of 'Made in Germany'. Surely this one criterion is not enough to prove 'Made in Germany' to be Sonopress (and process were changing even within one manufacturing unit). And yes, there were Sonopress, but also Pallas an IP using this element.
    But it is about a combination of elements, about the time scale and e.g. about typography and appearance of this stamper, which made it finally to be sure about it with a little bit of practice.

    And of course, disregarding this context would make an entry simply incorrect. And if the database is full with this, it should be cleared. I really do nitpicking on some entered "facts" and it is fine to do so. Removal of incorrect data is fine. As you see above, I was not in favor to mass edit facts, which are still in discussions.

    But now - please forgive- you told 5 times, but I didn't get the point, what is your major trouble in this discussion. I would like to contribute to its solution. Which identical matrices are you talking of? Sorry, maybe I entered the discussion too late or didn't read carefully.
  • sebfact about 1 year ago

    I am glad this has returned to a less heated debate. It's not the intention of this thread to have people at their throats but to find a way forward how to properly credit this plant.
    I am feeling a little better already but don't expect hourly replies :-)
    And thanks for the many thumbs up, it's appreciated.

    tarantoga
    aren't those matrix prefixes (7 TRA, 7 TYCR, etc.) assigned at the lacquer cutting or master tape stage of the production process?
    Yes, that is my understanding and that's why I have a hard time assigning lacquer or mastering roles to Lindström pressings. About pressings with German matrices I am 100% sure though (except for some outplaced pressings but they are ususally identifiable).

    mrformic
    What is your answer to the fact, that matrices are not controlled by anyone. The database is FULL of matrices which were used for mutiple completly different releases.
    We are talking about a very clearly delimited set of records and labels. "Your" 7 TBE 50014 wouldn't be an Odeon release, it wouldn't be from ~1958, and it wouldn't have cat## GEOW 1114 / O 40940 (Laurie London EP). So, it's not a single identifier but always a combination of several more to assign a plant. Plus the visual characteristics, such as German rim text, Made in Germany on the labels, serrations, etc. Anything else would be gambling.
  • Abdelfauda about 1 year ago

    Abdelfauda edited about 1 year ago
    sebfact
    aren't those matrix prefixes (7 TRA, 7 TYCR, etc.) assigned at the lacquer cutting or master tape stage of the production process?

    Yes, that is my understanding and that's why I have a hard time assigning lacquer or mastering roles to Lindström pressings.


    I would interpret these numbers as sequential 'recording'-catalogue numbers which were assigned when a release was entered into the release schedule.
    Let's compare a 1961 primary UK release, compiled out of 2 E.M.I. owned mono single recordings, assigned sequential recording cat#s 25672 and 25673 by Hayes, scheduled to be released on Columbia (X for mono 45" single recording, CA for primary UK Columbia recording) and some of its international variants:

    Helen Shapiro - Walkin' Back To Happiness: UK edition (probably a repress, mother numbers 2 and 4), runout stamps show 7 XCA 25672-1 N and 7 XCA 25673-1 N + Tax code + mother number + stamper letter(s)
    Walkin' Back To Happiness / Kiss 'N' Run: German editon, runouts show 7XCA 25672-1 and 7XCA 25673-1 in a different typeset (the same that appears on Cornet-releases)

    XCA(.)25672 and XCA(.)25673 appear on all Columbia-labelled editions worldwide and the lacquers for all these editions were surely not cut at Hayes.
    You can also analyse e.g. this search: XCA+Norway+1961. You will notice that some lacquers were cut at Hayes (-1N), some at Norway (-A). Dutch 1961 releases showing XCA were all pressed from UK cuts/mothers. (-1N+Tax code+mother numbers)
    German XCA releases will always show '-1', without N, just like German repertoire cut at Lindström.

    I have a hard time imagining that 7" lacquers were sent across the world under 1960s conditions if not necessary/economic...in some cases to small markets nearby in the form of mothers (NL) or to exotic locations not capable of proper cutting (dust), but not to a plant serving a market as big as the UK: Germany, Austria and Switzerland.

    Maybe your Lindström contact can confirm this for 7"s - as well as that stamps were applied at lacquer cutting.

    tarantoga
    Metal parts can be send to other pressing facilities, you know.


    you might think of the difference between a 1970s EMI Electrola GmbH pressing and its TELDEC-pressing variant. 7"s pressed at the plant we are talking about are very distinctive.

    Edit: amended 'recording' into 'single recording' for better definition, answered user tarantoga's statement. welcome!
  • Holobiont about 1 year ago

    Can we first get a agreement for now that Electrola Gesellschaft m.b.H. were pressed by Carl Lindström GmbH ?
  • sebfact about 1 year ago

    Abdelfauda
    I would interpret these numbers as sequential 'recording'-catalogue numbers which were assigned when a release was entered into the release schedule.
    Heard back: The numbers are master recording numbers, primarily indicating the location of the recording and the ordering label. A number starting with 7 XBA 10880 was recorded in Italy for HMV but it will be found on all world-wide releases (HMV UK, HMV Spain, Electrola Germany, etc.). Pressing was always done locally. It is still being figured out what exactly was transferred, master tapes (used since 1949) or lacquers. It is a long time ago and documents need to be dug out :-)

    The local companies reserved codes and / or matrix numbers for local repertoire and for foreign repertoire. That's why German Beatles on Odeon often have 7 XBE 50xxxx numbers (UK repertoire but a newly assembled tracklist, unique for Germany).

    Holobiont
    Can we first get a agreement for now that Electrola Gesellschaft m.b.H. were pressed by Carl Lindström GmbH ?
    I'd say yes.
    However, there is no automatism - there are many (!) exceptions for outplaced pressings, e.g. with "Made in Germany". So care has to be taken, and the rule "no plant without full runouts" strictly applies. Also, changes should not be made immediately and at this early stage of discussion.
  • GroovingPict about 1 year ago

    GroovingPict edited about 1 year ago
    sebfact
    It is still being figured out what exactly was transferred, master tapes (used since 1949) or lacquers


    For the case of the Norwegian Beatles singles on Odeon at least, it seems that they were made from tape transfers. Svein Sundby seems to have been a fan of keeping detailed record of his work, and actually wrote "dub" in the matrix for such releases. See The Beatles - Hello, Goodbye as an example.

    Some Norwegian Beatles singles have a Norwegian 7XCLN prefix though while some others have the UK 7XCE prefix, so Im not sure whats going on there or what the difference between those are.
  • Abdelfauda about 1 year ago

    Abdelfauda edited about 1 year ago
    sebfact
    I'd say yes.
    However, there is no automatism - there are many (!) exceptions for outplaced pressings, e.g. with "Made in Germany"


    Given the typical serration is there a 'Pressed By' seems 100% safe for 7"s, which are the main focus of user Holobiont.
    For LPs I'd be more cautious, not so much with Electrola GesmbH standard stuff, but with releases which sold massively...there might have been auxiliary pressings. Keeping an eye on the pressing ring and - of course - additional runout etchings/stamps will help. If in doubt, please don't, as ever.

    GroovingPict
    Some Norwegian Beatles singles have a Norwegian 7XCLN prefix though while some others have the UK 7XCE prefix,


    Those with XCLN were 'primarily' Odeon (Norway) releases (no primary UK Parlophone edition of these singles around), those with XCE were Parlophone (or UK: Parlophone, Norway: Odeon) (search also: Norway XCE and Norway XCLN).

    In Austria, let's say for Phonodisc GesmbH, 7"s usual business for primary non-Austrian Polygram releases was like this (sales figures my estimate, late 1970s):
    estimated <1000 copies: Phonodisc GmbH delivered GEMA copies for distri in Austria (more 'exotic' stuff)
    estimated 1000 - 10000 copies: mother sent from Phonodisc GmbH to Austria, 'Austro Mechana' pressing in Vienna, sleeves sent from Gmy or printed in Austria (typical German/Dutch Top20 repertoire)
    estimated > 10000 copies / potentially more than 1 mother: lacquer was cut at Vienna from master tape sent by Phonodisc GmbH, pressing in Austria, printing in Austria (potential chartbreakers like ABBA)

    I am sure it was handled in a similar way in all smaller national European markets until the establishment of the common European market around 1983/84.
    sebfact
    The numbers are master recording numbers, primarily indicating the location of the recording and the ordering label.


    sebfact
    The local companies reserved codes and / or matrix numbers for local repertoire and for foreign repertoire. That's why German Beatles on Odeon often have 7 XBE 50xxxx numbers (UK repertoire but a newly assembled tracklist, unique for Germany).


    That's how I understood it - master recording numbers, as 'prepared' for one side of the release, regardless if LP, EP or Single. The code and number of the subject of the phonographic copyright (you might remember the 'master reference number' on CBS Records releases or the smaller US number in brackets on primary US WEA Musik GmbH releases - they describe the same 'master recording' (of the entire release) as these numbers describe (for each side of the release)).

    sebfact
    It is still being figured out what exactly was transferred, master tapes (used since 1949) or lacquers

    It's not a guess when I say that plain (and unstamped) lacquers were not transported internationally in the 1960s if not really necessary (risk of damage), only from (external) mastering studios to galvanization. Dutch 1961 releases as shown in my example above were pressed from UK mothers, as were a.m. Austrian releases pressed from German mothers. But, as mentioned GAS as a whole was a way too big market to sent mother by mother from England (btw. they would have an English runout stamp / mother number in all cases then), so I am pretty convinced that a Lindström 7" press made from a foreign lacquer would show an additional indicator (like 70s Sonopress 020). On all 1960s 7" pressings I've checked it's the same font type, no matter if XCA, TRA or - COR, which were obviously cut & pressed there.

    small edit: 'not transported internationally, (risk of damage), only from (external) mastering studios to galvanization.'
  • sebfact about 1 year ago

    Abdelfauda
    It's not a guess when I say that plain (and unstamped) lacquers were not transported internationally in the 1960s if not really necessary (risk of damage)
    The preferred means was indeed a (duplicated) master tape (reel-to-teel). However, lacquers and / or metals were sent, too, from time to time. Together with the tape came a matrice sheet, bearing all necessary information for the plant ("original" matrix numbers - so format, speed, channel and label was immediately apparent, artist(s), titles, durations, "original" cat#).
    The "original cat#" is interesting because sometimes it was carried over to the foreign markets, sometimes not...

    Abdelfauda
    a Lindström 7" press made from a foreign lacquer would show an additional indicator
    In fact, they would show the foreign stamp.
  • Abdelfauda about 1 year ago

    sebfact
    However, lacquers and / or metals were sent, too, from time to time.


    As said above it merely depended on the size of the market. For a small market and neglectable expected sales, either copies from a bigger market were imported or mothers were sent and national copies were pressed from those.
    If the market was big enough, an all-in-solution from cutting to pressing was standard. Only WEA International's policy and the missing cutting facility until the 2nd half of the 1980s shortly led to a significant use of US mothers in a European plant - Alsdorf.
    I would estimate that between 1960 and 1985 more than 95% of Germany's releases were either cut on site or at a domestic cutting location.
    sebfact
    The "original cat#" is interesting because sometimes it was carried over to the foreign markets, sometimes not...

    In our case of let's say early 1960s Columbia 7" pressings we have:
    1) the 'original' or 'international' E.M.I.-format release cat# 45-DB-4xxx which was used in the UK and other European countries (NL, N, BE, DK) if the release was primary UK
    2) the 'international'* E.M.I.-format release cat# 45-DW-5xxx and the distributor's (Electrola GesmbH) catalog number Y xx xxx (e.g. C 21 350) used exclusively for GAS (Lindström) releases, regardless their primary country.

    *Please note that the German 45-DW-5xxx number was used also on NL- or Scandinavian editions when the primary release country was Germany.

    Interesting is the fact that ALL German editions were assigned a separate 45-DW-5xxx cat number in addition to the Electrola GesmbH cat#, even if there was a 45-DB-4xxx number in use in other territories.

    Btw. 'DB' - B=Britain 'DW' - W=West Germany? (DSA for South Africa exists as well...) the meaning of 'D' remains unexplained to me.

    Furthermore interesting: Finnish Columbia singles:
    45-DYC-1xxx - international repertoire pressed in Finland
    45-MY-xx (xxx) - Finnish repertoire pressed in Finland
    Kinda complicated.

    However,
    sebfact
    a Lindström 7" press made from a foreign lacquer would show an additional indicator

    In fact, they would show the foreign stamp.


    it should be quite obvious by now that all vinyl showing the Lindström-typical-runout stamp
    YYY xxxx(x)-1 (2,3...) for E.M.I. related products or
    YYY-xxxx(x)-n-1 for e.g. Cornet (one number for both sides, n=side indicator)
    without any additional runout etchings or stamps
    was cut at Carl Lindström GmbH.

    now what to do with the master recording number which indicated what (i.e. 'which master tape') was used to cut the release?
    I'd prefer adding it to the LCCN field.
  • sebfact about 1 year ago

    sebfact edited about 1 year ago
    Abdelfauda
    I'd prefer adding it to the LCCN field.
    Given that the master recording number could stem from anywhere in the world, I am hesitant to have it as LCCN. Additionally, even though the plain "numbers" appear consecutive, they are not necessarily from Lindström Berlin / Cologne.

    Edit: typos
  • kraftberg about 1 year ago

    sebfact

    Holobiont
    Can we first get a agreement for now that Electrola Gesellschaft m.b.H. were pressed by Carl Lindström GmbH ?
    sebfact
    I'd say yes.
    Which characteristics are confirmed to use this pressing plant for LCCN?
  • Holobiont about 1 year ago

    Holobiont
    By decision
    from 08.09.1953 the company headquarters moved from Berlin to Cologne
    Braunsfeld, Maarweg 149.
    Under the same address also worked the Electrola G.m.b.H.
    A division of labor was later made between the two companies.
    Recording and press operations were made by Carl Lindström GmbH.
    Distribution of records and artist engagements by the Electrola G.m.b.H.


    kraftberg
    Which characteristics are confirmed to use this pressing plant for LCCN?


    Just facts.
  • Holobiont about 1 year ago

    It seems that the majority agree to use the Carl Lindström GmbH for the pressings for now. Subtleties about the matrix-numbers can be made later after we have fixed the plant.
    Accept ?
  • Abdelfauda about 1 year ago

    kraftberg
    Which characteristics are confirmed to use this pressing plant for LCCN?


    as said above: 7"s that look like the typical 1970s-to-mid-1980s EMI Electrola GmbH pressings with prongs around the center label which are surely familiar to you.
    Cuts with typical Sans Serif typeset, until April 1969 ending with -1 (-n) [or -A-1/-B-1 (-n) if the recording catalog number is the same for both sides, e.g. Cornet].
    LPs should always be treated cautiously - the typical runouts have to be exclusive (no other etchings) and the pressing ring should meet the standard at the time. caution especially with massively selling titles (Beatles etc.) which could have easily been outsourced in that period - compared to standard Electrola Ges.m.b.H. repertoire.
  • kraftberg about 1 year ago

    Abdelfauda
    7"s that look like the typical 1970s-to-mid-1980s EMI Electrola GmbH pressings

    Ok, thanks. Wanted to play it safe and make sure that we can add Carl Lindström GmbH for german EMI releases until 1972.
  • sebfact about 1 year ago

    kraftberg
    Ok, thanks. Wanted to play it safe and make sure that we can add Carl Lindström GmbH for german EMI releases until 1972.
    Yes, that's more than proven.
  • mrformic about 1 year ago

    RSG §1.1.2
    spot on:
    "must be declared in the submission notes, explained in the release notes".
    Please do so, or your edits will be EI. Maybe you want to check your old edits as well.

    sebfact
    Yes, that's more than proven.

    When did this change from "work in progress" to "proven" ?
  • sebfact about 1 year ago

    mrformic
    When did this change from "work in progress" to "proven" ?
    The acting plant has been proven, everything else is WIP.
  • Holobiont about 1 year ago

    sebfact
    The acting plant has been proven, everything else is WIP.


    So can i avoid votes like this https://www.discogs.com/release/5989123-Zucker-Im-Kaffee-Gro%C3%9Fe-M%C3%A4dchen-Weinen-Nicht/history?utm_campaign=submission-activity&utm_medium=pm&utm_source=relationship#latest then in future for sure. Thanks!
  • mrformic about 1 year ago

    Holobiont
    So can i avoid votes like this

    mrformic
    RSG §1.1.2
    spot on:
    "must be declared in the submission notes, explained in the release notes".
    Please do so, or your edits will be EI. Maybe you want to check your old edits as well.


    One of your latest edits:
    https://www.discogs.com/release/3148960-March-From-The-River-Kwai-The-Yellow-Rose-Of-Texas/history#latest

    If you want to avoid bad votes and probably end up in CIP, please follow our guidelines.
    Submission notes like "All info" are obviously not sufficient.
  • mrformic about 1 year ago

    Holobiont
    So can i avoid votes like this


    You are ignoring guidelines with all your latest edits, allthough you read my comments here.
    I kindly ask you to follow guidelines, thank you.
  • Holobiont about 1 year ago

    No words^^^^
  • Holobiont about 1 year ago

    I will soon start with adding my Carl Lindström GmbH pressings.
    Anyone against it ?
  • Holobiont about 1 year ago

  • mrformic about 1 year ago

    Holobiont
    No words


    OK. You ignore me, so I have filed an SR. Maybe you want to wait with your edits, until we have a decission from managment.
  • Holobiont about 1 year ago

  • scenescof about 1 year ago

    No need to wait, 79 votes in 10 days and 25% C&C!!
    Must be ok!
  • Holobiont about 1 year ago

    [quote=scenescof][/quote]

    Thanks!
  • Holobiont about 1 year ago

    Fair enough..
  • sebfact about 1 year ago

    Sorry, on vacation with hardly any reception (Switzerland, 3000 mtrs)...
    However, CL GmbH is the correct pressing plant for German 7"s of the aforementioned labels. They can be clearly identified by the runout pattern and there are visual characteristics as well.
  • Holobiont about 1 year ago

    sebfact
    Sorry, on vacation with hardly any reception (Switzerland, 3000 mtrs)...


    Cool, sadly i do have no time this year to ski. But i do love https://www.hoch-ybrig.ch/winter/ in Swiss.;)

    mrformic
    Maybe you want to wait with your edits, until we have a decission from managment.


    Yes we wait. Thanks.
  • mrformic about 1 year ago

    Holobiont
    Yes we wait. Thanks.


    I got messaged by managment that probably Brent or Nik will look into this. No promise tho.
    I propose to wait another 2 days, if nothing happens you go ahead.
    But please explain your edits like required by guidelines, so other users can understand.
  • Holobiont about 1 year ago

    I Thank you ^^^^ And i will do....
  • scenescof about 1 year ago

    I remember Diogenes saying all edits should be explained. Not that hard is it?
  • Holobiont about 1 year ago

    ^^You are a funny guy. Lol.....
  • Holobiont about 1 year ago

    I said. All Carl Lindström GmbH are presed from Carl. Independently of label....
  • Holobiont about 1 year ago

    E 22 000 Elelectrola
    C 22 001 Columbia
    O 22 002 Odeon
    O 22 003 Odeon
    E 22 004 AgainElectrola!;)
  • Holobiont about 1 year ago

    Greetz. !

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