• alec.tron 11 months ago

    Heya,
    after talking to Nik about this in a ticket yonks ago, and not seeing a viable option to handle this in the current system now that more features for Discogs Tracks are rolled out, I thought best to post about it here.

    So, with the a system of Tracks - there, imo, should be a clear distinction between (some of) these:
    - the original composition and versions by the original artist/performer
    - a 'Remix' - usually re-using some of the original works' components
    - a 'Cover' - a more or less complete reinterpretation and/or homage to an original composition
    - a 'Version' (Riddim/Intrumental) - which is hugely important in some genres / musical circles, yet can be a complicated fringe case when thinking about how this could be added to discogs databases imo

    And to have something practical, with an example of a popular track and something that is in the grey areas of the above, and would probably fall under the 'cover' definition:
    I have started to group some things from here, as it is a good case when discussing this point I think:
    https://www.discogs.com/artist/214748-Kode9/tracks
    This imo should be 'it's own' composition, contextually as well as to group the different spellings & version of this (instrumentals, dubs, re-recordings etc), which I did group under one composition already, to test the system & get familiar with it:
    Sign Of The Dub - 24 Tracks
    =
    Sign O' The Dub
    Sign Of The Dub
    Sine
    Sine Of The Dub
    Sine Of The Dub/Dub An Fx

    But the question now - how is the above, which is so far abstracted from the original, meant to be represented in the originals' composition page, which it still is a cover of/homage to, i.e. this:
    https://www.discogs.com/composition/82ed22fd-1dbb-4ec6-875d-8a8f88b5fa25-Sign-O-Times

    Very curious what the official answer to this is.

    Cheers.
    c.
  • Staff 3.1k

    nik 11 months ago

    I think we need to get artist names on the composition pages, that would be a start.

    I am not sure Sign O' The Dub could be considered the same composition as Sign 'O' The Times. It is very far away from it. If the original artist did it as a remix, that might make it a bit more likely to be considered part of the same composition.

    There is a "Recordings" layer between the Compositions and the Tracks that we haven't 'exposed' yet. We are expecting that to organise all the versions.
  • alec.tron 11 months ago

    alec.tron edited 11 months ago
    Hey Nik,
    that's why I picked this... as this is clearly a very far detached case, but it is based on the same 'composition' and even features the same lyrics.
    So this to me definitely should be connected somehow to Sign 'O' The Times, i.e. what it has been written as homage to (or a 'remix' of - which in theory gives complete artistic freedom...), but clearly is its' own as well, artistically, and we have no means to do this yet in the current system from the looks. Yet, any system taking compositions and artistic/contextual relations into account, should imo be able to connect these type of artwork on another layer as well (that is not composition / or 'Recordings' - from how it feels after our past discussions, but would fall into the 'cover' / re-interperetation [or 'remix' ?] realm that atm doesn't exist within Tracks I think).

    Cheers.
    c.
  • alec.tron 11 months ago

    Also worth mentioning... there can be musical pieces that pay homage to / remix / mashup / sample multiple other pieces, instead of one single composition... which would be nice to have a tools/connection-layer for too.
    The granularity here can be floating into each other though & can make this over-facetted/difficult to clealy define... so somewhere there needs to be a line, yet, even down to 'Samples' you guys seem to be planning on, as indicated to in the 'Tracks Poll'...)

    And to make things even more complex - as I believe these questions should be asked - whereas this could do with some input from people who are more versed on classical music - what about 'whole album remixes' or homages to multiple other pieces of work, A good example here would be classical pieces that re-appear, officially or un-officially in other pieces of work, be it albums or single tracks. i.e. 2 that immediately come to mind:
    Vivaldi's - 4 Seasons
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Four_Seasons_(Vivaldi)
    Sergej Prokofjew - Peter & The Wolf
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_and_the_Wolf

    As I mentioned elsewhere:
    alec.tron
    But if we do not have a good foundation for this, which I believe the discogs guys have tried to create here, we'll never get better & connected track relative data, which imo will become a gold mine of information & discovery in years to come.


    Looking forward to what this holds for the future ;)
    c.
  • Staff 3.1k

    nik 11 months ago

    alec.tron
    as this is clearly a very far detached case, but it is based on the same 'composition' and even features the same lyrics.
    So this to me definitely should be connected somehow to Sign 'O' The Times, i.e. what it has been written as homage to (or a 'remix' of - which in theory gives complete artistic freedom...), but clearly is its' own as well, artistically, and we have no means to do this yet in the current system


    Yup, we have a lot of plans for ways to connect compositions, recordings, and tracks. This is quite early stages at the moment. We have planned out for all of this type of thing, but as you can see there is a lot of data and it is fairly heavy lifting to manipulate it all easily. Thanks for the feedback!
  • alec.tron 11 months ago

    alec.tron edited 11 months ago
    Hey Nik, thanks for the info - looking forward to see where this goes next.
    Is there a public road map of sorts for what's to come & when you guys are intending to add to the functionality of Tracks ?
    Cheers.
    c.
  • uzn007 6 months ago

    Some more considerations:

    * Arrangements
    * Samples
    * Medleys
    * Mashups

    In some styles of music, specific arrangements and arrangers are very important. Arrangements are considered to be intellectual property that's distinct from that of the underlying composition.

    The notion of arrangement comes into play when discussing medleys, as well, an issue that was raised in the main Tracks thread.

    Samples, obviously, bring a portion of the underlying composition (and arrangement) into the composition that makes use of them, as well as bringing a portion of the underlying recording into the resulting recording.

    There's also the concept of a mashup, which basically brings all of these together.

    Where a medley is just an Arrangement of a number of different Compositions that are performed without a break, a mashup is a new Composition that is derived from previous Compositions (or, more accurately, from Samples of Recordings of previous Compositions, as it is usually executed in practice).

    As you can see, there are a lot of layers here

    Original Composition 1
    -> Is Arranged 1
    -> -> Is Recorded 1
    -> -> -> Is Sampled into Sample 1

    Original Composition 2
    -> Is Arranged
    -> -> Is Recorded
    -> -> -> Is Sampled into Sample 2

    Sample 1
    Sample 2
    -> Are used in Derived Composition 3

    Composition 3 now has elements of two compositions, two recordings, and potentially, two arrangements, plus the compositional elements that bind it all together.

    Composition 3 can now be arranged and recorded into Recording 3, which has elements of all of this, while containing its own arrangement and recording, for a total of nine distinct entities that are all related to this third Recording:

    1) Composition 1
    2) Arrangement 1
    3) Recording 1
    4) Composition 2
    5) Arrangement 2
    6) Recording 2
    7) Derived Composition 3
    8) Arrangement 3 (the Arrangement of Composition 3)
    9) Recording 3 (the final product)

    That's pretty complex, and for a song that only contains two samples. Each additional Sample that is used brings in a minimum of two more elements (Composition and Recording), possibly three (if there is a distinct Arrangement associated with that Recording).

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