• Miki242 5 months ago

    Recently, there have been merged Nettwerk release with promo text printed on disc:

    https://www.discogs.com/release/6246842-Truly/history

    Same promo text appears on discs on various Metropolis releases, for example:

    https://www.discogs.com/Decoded-Feedback-EVOlution/release/4363549 vs
    standard release https://www.discogs.com/Decoded-Feedback-EVOlution/release/17174

    https://www.discogs.com/Front-Line-Assembly-Implode/release/1670837 vs
    standard release https://www.discogs.com/Front-Line-Assembly-Implode/release/10499

    and others.

    This promo text looks like stamped, not printed.

    Are these different submissions, tagged as Promo releases or they should have been merged with standard?

    Pinging zevulon, Jester1973, powerstone05
  • hafler3o 5 months ago

    Miki242
    ... This promo text looks like stamped, not printed.

    Are these different submissions, tagged as Promo releases or they should have been merged with standard?


    Happy to be corrected but in the past these have been referred to as 'heat transfer' marking (synonymous with labelling via heat transfer etc.) and were considered post manufacture thus duplicate to any other version not carrying the transfer. Similar to the 'gold stamp' scenario.
  • powerstone05 5 months ago

    hafler3o
    Miki242... This promo text looks like stamped, not printed.

    Are these different submissions, tagged as Promo releases or they should have been merged with standard?

    Happy to be corrected but in the past these have been referred to as 'heat transfer' marking (synonymous with labelling via heat transfer etc.) and were considered post manufacture thus duplicate to any other version not carrying the transfer. Similar to the 'gold stamp' scenario.


    Where was this decided?
  • hafler3o 5 months ago

    powerstone05
    ... Where was this decided?


    What is this 'this' you refer to? Terminology, handling?
  • hafler3o 5 months ago

  • powerstone05 5 months ago

    hafler3o
    powerstone05... Where was this decided?

    What is this 'this' you refer to? Terminology, handling?


    I was referring to the 'silkscreen' promo labels being considered not promos for the database. As far as I'm aware it was never fully settled and no official resolution on it was ever reached.
  • hafler3o 5 months ago

    powerstone05
    ... being considered not promos for the database. As far as I'm aware it was never fully settled and no official resolution on it was ever reached.


    Going back years now, but I remember informal chats all leading to post-manufacture handling i.e. only unique when no other version was in the database. In those days nik ruled so if he didn't chime in nothing was 'concensusised' but life went on!
  • Miki242 5 months ago

    So, these releases should be merged or not?
  • hafler3o 5 months ago

    Miki242
    So, these releases should be merged or not?


    If you take that link mjb gave to the wiki as 'gospel' then there is a good possibility of a merge. All you can do is ask the community, which is what the merge procedure effectively is.
  • mjb 5 months ago

    That page in the wiki is more just there to link to the discussions. I have summarized the discussions as best I can, but you really need to refer to the statements staff & users actually made in the threads.

    It is probably fair to say that discussion did not really reach conclusions... more just that there was more skepticism than support for accepting releases with "heat transfer"-style promotional-text overlays as separate items. If you poll people today, maybe you'll get a different set of opinions from a different set of users. On the other hand, this is really as good as it gets with most discussions in the forums...rarely do we have overwhelming agreement on anything.

    In the meantime, I handle it like this: Films For Radio (ostensibly representing the unmodified retail edition, but in the release notes: "Some copies are promos which have a sticker and defaced barcode on the tray inlay, and a heat transfer-style promo notice overlaid on the disc face.")
  • andygrayrecords 5 months ago

    Cooking Vinyl do this a lot.
    eg
    The Blackout - Start The Party
    Had a look through my store 'Cooking Vinyl promo' and all items with screen printed discs also had changed artwork so they're actually valid as promos - couldn't find any with regular artwork, so maybe I'm mistaken.
  • Lazlo.Nibble 4 months ago

    I don’t know what “heat transfer style” means; on all of the examples I own of these kinds of promos the overprint (either the large PROMOTIONAL or the black-text-on-a-white-box type) is in the same kind of paint used to print the underlying label artwork. As such they’re likely applied as an extra step in the same manufacturing cycle that applies the rest of the label artwork. The argument against tracking these as separate releases is extremely thin, IMO.
  • mjb 4 months ago

    Lazlo.Nibble
    I don’t know what “heat transfer style” means; on all of the examples I own of these kinds of promos the overprint (either the large PROMOTIONAL or the black-text-on-a-white-box type) is in the same kind of paint used to print the underlying label artwork. As such they’re likely applied as an extra step in the same manufacturing cycle that applies the rest of the label artwork. The argument against tracking these as separate releases is extremely thin, IMO.

    I agree with this, and would rather not see such releases merged and treated as the retail release. I am not going to nominate the ones I know about for a merge.

    The previous discussions nevertheless include insistence (mainly by Eviltoastman) that if you can see the underlying artwork through the overlay, it crosses the line that we arbitrarily call a post-manufacture alteration, no different than the same factory pulling aside a stack of already-made sleeves to add gold stamps and hole punches.
  • hatfulofelt 4 months ago

    At some point, I'm sure the merits of red Promo paint vs. heat transfers has been debated, the former as seen here https://www.discogs.com/The-Heart-Throbs-Jubilee-Twist/release/8266154 (something done commonly in the '90s in the US).
  • Lazlo.Nibble 4 months ago

    Has anyone actually come up with a real-world “heat transfer” promo marking on a CD? I’ve already had one release (Clan Of Xymox - Creatures) merged by Miki242 because the promotional text silkscreened onto the label was, in their opinion, a “heat transfer”, but none of the discussions I’ve been able to dig up actually link to an example.
  • viandy 4 months ago

    Compare this disc, Dwarves - The Dwarves Are Young And Good Looking with The Dwarves Are Young And Good Looking, there's no confusion between those. Or look at Deadbolt - Zulu Death Mask as an example of Promo packaging. I think those are what Discogs means as Promos, items obviously manufactured to be distributed as promotional.
  • hatfulofelt 4 months ago

    Anything marked Promo is a promo - in the real world; in Discogsland, it's harder to determine - based on guidelines.
  • mjb 4 months ago

    Lazlo.Nibble
    Has anyone actually come up with a real-world “heat transfer” promo marking on a CD?

    Ha ha, of course not.

    • How is this type of overprinting achieved? Eviltoastman insisted these kinds of overprints, because you can sometimes see through them, are the result of thermal transfer (e.g. here), despite PabloPlato pointing out in the same thread and another one that heat would melt the disc. Eviltoastman also seems to be under the impression that it is not being done at the factory, so these releases are not comparable to the Japanese CDs that have Sample text on their hubs.

    • When is it actually done? We are all guessing as to how it's made, and he just happens to be the most insistent about his opinion. I think most of us agree it is probably silkscreened at the factory every time.

    • What do we call it? I would prefer to say silkscreened or overprinted. I prefer overprinted because it does not assume a particular type of process like thermal, screen, offset, inkjet, etc. As a vague compromise, I suggested "heat transfer-style" overprinting, but I kinda regret saying it now.

    • Should we regard it as post-manufacture alteration, under RSG §6.12.2, for Promo tagging purposes? Well, there's the rub, eh? IMO, no. But I do understand why people disagreed in past discussions... gold stamps are applied at the factory too.
  • Lazlo.Nibble 4 months ago

    Fair enough. Another issue to chalk up to Discogs not having a clear vision of its actual purpose, I guess.
  • hatfulofelt 4 months ago

    I feel post-manufacture "applications" should be allowed, just not saw marks or hole punches or the like. The former represent something as substantial, to me, as other minutiae that are allowed separately (SID codes, for one - when the manufacturer and everything else is otherwise the exact same).
  • Lazlo.Nibble 4 months ago

    Yeah, that’s basically where I stand on the issue as well.

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