• eighties1 2 months ago

    The entry in question is Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers* - Let Me Up (I've Had Enough)
    Track B3: A SELF-MADE MAN

    RSG §1.2.2.c. Abbreviations, contractions and hyphenations should start with a capital letter. The rest of the word's capitalization should follow as on the release, except where all caps have been used, which should be turned to lower case.

    According to the guideline above, it seems clear that capitalization for hyphenated words should be as written on the release:

    a self-made man -> A Self-made Man
    A Self-made Man -> A Self-made Man
    A Self-Made Man -> A Self-Made Man
    A SELF-MADE MAN -> A Self-made Man

    Since the title is written in all caps, the rest of the word's capitalization should be turn to lowercase.

    About this being incorrect English grammar:
    nik "This is the problem with language based rules - they are not firm. Also, when it comes to title case language based rules, they are even less clear. What Discogs attempts to do is to have it's own set of title case language rules (which is a legitimate stance) that are not language based, and are as simple as possible."

    A few previous threads on the same subject:
    https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/174057#2220091
    https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/187403#2362679
    https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/368764#3420140

    Tagging Showbiz_Kid and mossinterest (who cast an EI vote)
  • la-voie-du-sabre 2 months ago

    eighties1
    a self-made man -> A Self-made Man
    A Self-made Man -> A Self-made Man
    A Self-Made Man -> A Self-Made Man
    A SELF-MADE MAN -> A Self-made Man


    this since, afaik, a hyphenated word is one and only word
  • _dreamer 2 months ago

    eighties1
    a self-made man -> A Self-made Man
    A Self-made Man -> A Self-made Man
    A Self-Made Man -> A Self-Made Man
    A SELF-MADE MAN -> A Self-made Man


    This is the correct interpretation of the Guideline.
  • _dreamer 2 months ago

    eighties1
    You can also look at this thread:
    https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/774550
  • scenescof 2 months ago

    _dreamer
    eighties1a self-made man -> A Self-made Man
    A Self-made Man -> A Self-made Man
    A Self-Made Man -> A Self-Made Man
    A SELF-MADE MAN -> A Self-made Man

    This is the correct interpretation of the Guideline.


    That’s how I read them
  • hafler3o 2 months ago

    Yes this is correct.
  • mossinterest 2 months ago

    This is asinine. Proper grammar aside, howabout the artists official webite regardless of the release being printed in all caps. "Self-Made" is not a participle. We here at Discogs have always gone by the official artist or record company for interpretation. It's not "Self-made Man"
  • cooterlee 2 months ago

    This debate is exactly why I rarely submit, which is not something about which I’m proud. I’d prefer to submit a lot more but the process is largely ridiculous and makes me want to murder people.

    NOTHING about “Self-made Man” is correct and Discogs doesn’t get to dictate the rules of language and grammar. That’s absolutely absurd.

    In this case there is NO SUCH THING as a lower-case “man.” It’s “Self-Made Man,” period.
  • mirva 2 months ago

    cooterlee
    Discogs doesn’t get to dictate the rules of language and grammar.

    They shouldn't but they do. That's what the whole capitalization rule is about.
  • cooterlee 2 months ago

    mirva
    cooterleeDiscogs doesn’t get to dictate the rules of language and grammar.
    They shouldn't but they do. That's what the whole capitalization rule is about.


    But that doesn’t make it right, man. Discogs makes mistakes and to slavishly follow those mistakes is horseshit. The artist’s website explicitly says that it’s “Self-Made Man,” which is correct by all the laws of proper English and also by all the laws of Tom fucking Petty, so that means it’s “Self-Made Man.” End of story.
  • mirva 2 months ago

    cooterlee
    But that doesn’t make it right, man.

    It doesn't, and wasn't suggesting otherwise. Just that the Discogs capitalization rules introduce all kinds of mistakes but that hasn't been a valid reason not to follow them - at least not in the past.
  • Showbiz_Kid 2 months ago

    As has been noted in numerous other threads, the Guidelines are just that — guidelines. If they were hard-and-fast, they would be called Rules... and they aren’t.

    Staff have also granted us the ability to work these things out in Forums and form community consensus. So why not let’s talk about this issue in terms of what makes sense in the real world, and WRT some slavish reliance on what are, after all, only guidelines.
  • Violent-Power 2 months ago

    Showbiz_Kid
    of what makes sense in the real world


    Yet Discogs is not 'the real world' but a database where we try to make data uniform. Discogs capitalization rules go against the rules of every langauge I know, but we follow them to make the data appear the same no matter the language on it.

    I do agree that we should not follow guidelines to the letter just because we can, but if we make exceptions there should be a vary good reason for it.
  • _dreamer 2 months ago

    Violent-Power
    but we follow them to make the data appear the same no matter the language on it


    I agree ^^.

    EI vote was totally inappropriate in Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers* - Let Me Up (I've Had Enough), especially when guidelines have been previously quoted on by eighties1 on comments.

    Even regarding the mass edit, that was also stated to justify the EI vote, Guidance thread
    https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/386848
    shows how to deal with it, and it is not by casting EI votes in the first place:

    "General advice when encountering a mass edit lacking in evidence:
    * Start a thread about it, advising other community members you see a problem, that there is no citation or clear evidence for the edit, and make it clear, in polite language, that this evidence does need to be provided.
    * Leave a note on the submission to the effect that you have started a thread, and would like their input.
    * If no response or evidence are provided within a couple of days, it is acceptable to leave a couple of EI votes along with a reminder that there is an open forum thread discussing the concern, and evidence is still lacking.
    * It's a good idea to update the forums at this time to indicate votes have been placed.
    * If there are no further responses or sufficient evidence at this point, EI votes can be placed on each edit."
  • typoman2 2 months ago

    _dreamer
    EI vote was totally inappropriate in Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers* - Let Me Up (I've Had Enough), especially when guidelines have been previously quoted on by eighties1 on comments.

    A correct edit was reverted. +1
  • el_duro 2 months ago

    typoman2
    EI vote was totally inappropriate in Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers* - Let Me Up (I've Had Enough), especially when guidelines have been previously quoted on by eighties1 on comments.

    A correct edit was reverted. +1


    Agreed

    "That is incorrect English" and "the artist's official webite" linked upthread are completely irrelevant.
  • typoman2 2 months ago

    typoman2 edited 2 months ago
    Showbiz_Kid
    If they were hard-and-fast, they would be called Rules... and they aren’t.

    Well, RSG §1.2.2.c – the appropriate paragraph – is listed under 1. General Rules like capitalization … so it seems you contradict yourself here …

    Edit: typo
  • Showbiz_Kid 2 months ago

    Violent-Power
    Discogs is not 'the real world'

    You have that right. And I have bloodied myself on enough silliness of this sort to know that there’s no profit in continuing to discuss it. I’m going to go listen to some records now.
  • mossinterest 2 months ago

    Violent-Power
    if we make exceptions there should be a vary good reason for it.

    I believe title the artist chose supersedes Discogs arrogance to change published history.

    el_duro
    "the artist's official webite" linked upthread are completely irrelevant.

    Case in point to previous comment. I can't believe this. There are over 100,000 submissions tagged NMC, and triple that number need fixing and have gone ignored. But, so many Discogs users wasting time in effort to change the way an artist wrote the title to his own composition. Hmm. What a revelation this has been.
  • mossinterest 2 months ago

    _dreamer
    "General advice when encountering a mass edit lacking in evidence:

    Before I had a chance to even address the situation in forums, the user arrogantly returned the same rejected edit, against the guidelines RSG §14.3.3.
    The title was correct per the artist. I had no idea Discogs had gotten so far outta wack that we now reject the artist composition over Discogs' vague generalization of how to interpret what the artist composition SHOULD be.
  • 6006 2 months ago

    A hyphenation means the use of hyphens. Hyphens are punctuation marks to join words. The plural is important here. In the case above self-made is two words joined by a hyphen, hence it’s a hyphenation. But it’s still two words. Now try and read the guidelines about capitalisation again. Self-made Man is incorrect according to the guidelines since ignoring that each word should start with a capital.
  • mossinterest 2 months ago

    6006
    Now try and read the guidelines about capitalisation again

    Thank you. There's that also. Each WORD in a title must be capitalized. Huge contradiction, ain't it?
  • Staff 3.0k

    nik 2 months ago

    eighties1
    a self-made man -> A Self-made Man
    A Self-made Man -> A Self-made Man
    A Self-Made Man -> A Self-Made Man
    A SELF-MADE MAN -> A Self-made Man

    Since the title is written in all caps, the rest of the word's capitalization should be turn to lowercase


    I don't know. I'd do:

    A SELF-MADE MAN -> A Self-Made Man

    especially if that is supported elsewhere.

    I'm not sure it's too important really, certainly not enough for some of the bad feeling in this thread, all over "M" or "m".

    cooterlee
    But that doesn’t make it right, man. ... laws of proper English


    mirva
    They shouldn't but they do. That's what the whole capitalization rule is about.


    We can, though. There is no 'law of proper English", only mutually agreed guidelines based on usage and analysis. Further, there are no absolute guidelines for English title case. The publication can make a choice. Discogs chose Start Case.
  • mirva 2 months ago

    nik
    I'm not sure it's too important really

    It shouldn't be that important, and in my opinion this issue shouldn't even need to be discussed. But for the longest time the capitalization rules in Discogs have been implemented in a really strict manner. I've tried to deviate from them a couple of times in the past (of course with a good reason and explanations), but eventually someone always "fixes" it, or points out that it's not according to guidelines - completely ignoring the reasoning and explanations. The lack of common sense and flexibility can be slightly frustrating, so the tone of the thread shouldn't be that surprising.

    nik
    There is no 'law of proper English", only mutually agreed guidelines based on usage and analysis. Further, there are no absolute guidelines for English title case. The publication can make a choice. Discogs chose Start Case.

    Tell that to other languages. :P
  • avalon67 2 months ago

    nik
    I don't know. I'd do:

    A SELF-MADE MAN -> A Self-Made Man


    You need to look at clarifying the guidelines then nik

    Self-made is a hyphenation, so should follow the rule
    RSG §1.2.2.c.Abbreviations, contractions and hyphenations should start with a capital letter. The rest of the word's capitalization should follow as on the release, except where all caps have been used, which should be turned to lower case.

    Otherwise these arguments will continue.
  • mossinterest 2 months ago

    avalon67
    capitalization should follow as on the release, except where all caps have been used, which should be turned to lower case.


    My interpretation of that context was that the normal cap rules apply...we don't leave all caps, but follow the guideline for Title RSG §1.2.1.
    In any event, the artist composition should rule over any guideline, IMO. I always figured the artist knew best. We can't change what the artist intended, by changing it to our interpretation, because it's easier for Discogs users to follow. Again, IMO, nothing should supersede the artist or record company intentions. I'm shocked it's come to users suggesting otherwise.
  • JT_X 2 months ago

    JT_X edited 2 months ago
    cooterlee
    NOTHING about “Self-made Man” is correct and Discogs doesn’t get to dictate the rules of language and grammar. That’s absolutely absurd.

    "Self-made" is a compound adjective, and since it's hyphenated, it's one word.

    6006
    A hyphenation means the use of hyphens. Hyphens are punctuation marks to join words. The plural is important here. In the case above self-made is two words joined by a hyphen, hence it’s a hyphenation. But it’s still two words. Now try and read the guidelines about capitalisation again. Self-made Man is incorrect according to the guidelines since ignoring that each word should start with a capital.

    It's a compound word, which means it's one word made up of multiple words. Should "Piecemeal" be capitalized as "PieceMeal"?
  • mossinterest 2 months ago

    avalon67
    Self-made is a hyphenation, so should follow the rule


    avalon67
    RSG §1.2.2.c.Abbreviations, contractions and hyphenations should start with a capital letter.


    That seems very clear to me. As on most classical releases, where the contraction is Capped, so are the hyphenated. I must say, however, it is proper English to cap both words in a title, or business titles. That's a fact.
  • mossinterest 2 months ago

    JT_X
    Should "Piecemeal" be capitalized as "PieceMeal"?


    How in the world does that apply in any language? We're talking hyphens, and titles. Two words separated by a hyphen, in a title. But, none of that matters. The artist wrote it as "Self-Made Man". All the arguing in the world shouldn't cancel that little fact. Why is this so dang important to so many?
  • JT_X 2 months ago

    mossinterest
    Two words separated by a hyphen, in a title.

    They're joined by a hyphen, not separated.

    mossinterest
    The artist wrote it as "Self-Made Man". All the arguing in the world shouldn't cancel that little fact.

    Then that's the argument that you should use, not arguing that compound words are not compound words.
  • cooterlee 2 months ago

    JT_X
    "Self-made" is a compound adjective, and since it's hyphenated, it's one word.


    Except when used as part of a formal title. The name of the song is a formal title so it's "Self-Made Man," as per the artist's website/discography.

    It is only "self-made man" when used in a sentence as a descriptive.
  • eighties1 2 months ago

    nik

    A SELF-MADE MAN -> A Self-Made Man


    nik, if this general rule for the exception to capitalization and grammar is to be ignored, then there needs to be clarification.

    Otherwise an all caps hyphenated word should not be turned to lowercase.

    Next we will look at RE-MIX.

    RE-MIX -> Re-mix or RE-MIX -> Re-Mix
  • Showbiz_Kid 2 months ago

    Sure, let's throw some more lawn clippings into the compost bin.
  • mossinterest 2 months ago

    ROFL..........
  • JT_X 2 months ago

    cooterlee
    Except when used as part of a formal title. The name of the song is a formal title so it's "Self-Made Man," as per the artist's website/discography.

    It is only "self-made man" when used in a sentence as a descriptive.

    Being part of a song title doesn't stop a compound word from being one word. If the "formal title" (whatever that is) according to the artist, is "Self-Made", then OK, let's cap it that way. Just like "E-mail" is the title of another song, and should be capped accordingly.
  • 6006 2 months ago

    E and Re are not words, piecemeal is not a hyphenation, it's one word (hence a hyphen would be illogical), self-made are two words, a compound word are still two or more words - just another way of looking at language. The guidelines are not precise
  • cooterlee 2 months ago

    JT_X
    whatever that is


    There's your problem in a nutshell.
  • hafler3o 2 months ago

    nik
    I don't know...

    Then why are you commenting? Please read your own guidelines. In this instance they tell us to enter 'Self-made'.
  • _dreamer 2 months ago

    mossinterest
    Proper grammar aside, howabout the artists official webite regardless of the release being printed in all caps. "Self-Made" is not a participle. We here at Discogs have always gone by the official artist or record company for interpretation. It's not "Self-made Man"


    If we go by the artist website, we would have to capitalize track 4 like "It'll All Work out" since all tracks are First Letter Of Each Word Capitalized except for the "out" on this track..
    Might this "out" have some kind of meaning to the artist?

    Does any of this Cap things have some kind of meaning to the artists?

    Looking at many releases listed on Discogs, where release titles and track titles are written sometimes in two or three different ways on the release, i would say that many of them couldn't care less about it.
  • mossinterest 2 months ago

    Over 100,000 NMC-subs, or over 300,000 with known-problems that have not been flagged. One word in a track-title, capped, or not-capped? Hyphen or not-hyphened? Really? I'm just Astounded-Over-All-This-Fuss, for this. What is wrong with simply accepting it as the artist wrote it? One letter capped. There are submissions with wrong labels / companies, incorrect credits, bogus runouts, etc., etc., and all this time is being wasted on bickering over one letter being capped in a title the same way the artist wrote it.
    disclosure: Astounded-Over-All-This-Fuss is a song I wrote, but I won't be submitting it to Discogs to be hacked up and debated for days.

    Ar-ar-ar!
  • Akroatis 2 months ago

    Concerning primarily other similar issues, I completely agree with cooterlee's statement:

    cooterlee
    This debate is exactly why I rarely submit, which is not something about which I’m proud. I’d prefer to submit a lot more but the process is largely ridiculous and makes me want to murder people.

    [...] and Discogs doesn’t get to dictate the rules of language and grammar. That’s absolutely absurd.

    Replace "why I rarely submit" by "why I stopped to submit"
    and replace
    "makes me want to murder people" by "makes me want to call people idiots"
    and that could be my own words. ;-)

    And as this is one of the rare moments where nik himself is so generous to speak to us, let's have a look at this remark:

    nik

    I'm not sure it's too important really, certainly not enough for some of the bad feeling in this thread, [...].

    This would apply to various other issues too which caused at least the same "bad feeling" in other threads. But there unfortunately you prefer to remain silent and to hide ...
  • hafler3o 2 months ago

    mossinterest
    it.
    disclosure: Astounded-Over-All-This-Fuss is a song I wrote, but I won't be submitting it to Discogs to be hacked up and debated for days.


    If it is written like that on your 'release' it can be entered that way in Discogs, you'd know that if you perused the actual guideline. See example 3 in OS's original post.
  • mossinterest 2 months ago

    hafler3o
    you'd know that if you perused the actual guideline

    I "perused" the artist's rendition in the issue which compelled all this controversy. If you peruse the guideline, eventually you may realize it may be interpreted differently, or maybe not. I don't see how the wording of the guideline led you to reach the fast conclusion. I'm just repeating myself. Everyone will read exactly what they want it to read.
  • mossinterest 2 months ago

    RSG §1.2.2.c. "...hyphenations should start with a capital letter. The rest of the word's capitalization should follow as on the release, except where all caps have been used, which should be turned to lower case."
    That is exactly what I did. I turned "all caps as on release" to lower case, following the standard rule RSG §1.2.1. "First Letter Of Each Word Is Capitalized." Two words with a hyphen between is not one word.
    Nothing in the guideline leads me to believe the rule should have been obvious to not capitalize the second word of a hyphenated phrase. It doesn't say that anywhere, and I possess pretty good reading comprehension skills. I confirmed this with the artist's rendition of how the title should be, as well as all established web listings.
  • 6006 2 months ago

    What mossinterest summarises above is simply correct. The relevant guideline is imprecise, i.e. the bit "The rest of the word's capitalization". It is glossing over the concept of hyphenations and this leads to all the confusion not only in this thread but also in a couple of recent others
  • hafler3o 2 months ago

    mossinterest
    RSG §1.2.1. "First Letter Of Each Word Is Capitalized." Two words with a hyphen between is not one word.

    ... but a hyphenated word is just that, one word, not two. Once words are compounded by use of the hyphen (hyphenation) the rest of the word's 'capitalisation should follow as on release except...' so the guideline is telling us what to do if we encounter xxxx-xxxx as xxxx-xxxx is predefined in the rsg as a 'hyphenated word' NOT 'wordS joined or separated via a hyphen'.
  • hafler3o 2 months ago

    6006
    ... "The rest of the word's capitalization".

    word's (possessive)
    not
    words (plural)

    is that what you mean by imprecise?
  • taalem 2 months ago

    oh great, another capitalization thread :-)
    funny how the outcome changes whether we talk about english words (Self-Made seems to be acceptable despite being one word) or french words (C'Est is not correct despite being two words).
    hilarious isn't it?
  • eighties1 2 months ago

    Breakdown using 'A SELF-MADE MAN', as written on the release.

    mossinterest
    RSG §1.2.2.c. "...hyphenations should start with a capital letter. The rest of the word's capitalization should follow as on the release,


    At this point the interpretation would be:
    A SELF-MADE MAN -> A Self-Made Man

    But wait, here is the exception to the rule.

    mossinterest
    except where all caps have been used, which should be turned to lower case."


    All caps are being used in this example, so the rest of the words capitalization should be turned to lowercase.
    A SELF-MADE MAN -> A Self-made Man

    mossinterest
    That is exactly what I did. I turned "all caps as on release" to lower case


    No, that is not what you did.

    The interpretation here would be:
    A SELF-MADE MAN -> A Self-made Man

    This capitalization exception is being used in place of 'as on release', otherwise the capitalization wouldn't change at all and including this exception would be useless.

    mossinterest
    following the standard rule RSG §1.2.1. "First Letter Of Each Word Is Capitalized."


    This is the rule RSG §1.2.1. and this is the exception RSG §1.2.2.c..
    You aren't following the exception if you are only following the original rule.

    mossinterest
    Two words with a hyphen between is not one word.


    It is a hyphenation.

    mossinterest
    Nothing in the guideline leads me to believe the rule should have been obvious to not capitalize the second word of a hyphenated phrase. It doesn't say that anywhere


    It says it right here:
    "except where all caps have been used, which should be turned to lower case."

    mossinterest
    I confirmed this with the artist's rendition of how the title should be, as well as all established web listings.


    This sounds made up as a valid reason to change a track title.
    I believe we use what is written on the release.
  • Showbiz_Kid 2 months ago

    I love how all y’all who normally take Nik’s comments as gospel are completely ignoring his comments in this thread. In any other discussion, Nik’s word would have settled it, but here? You Don Quixotes just keep tilting at the windmill.

    It would be hilarious if it weren’t so sad.
  • mossinterest 2 months ago

    eighties1
    This sounds made up as a valid reason to change a track title.
    I believe we use what is written on the release.

    Wow! You seem very obsessed with this. So, you cannot accept nik's assessment? You can't accept the artist rendition? You go one step further and begin to question my character and integrity. Not the first time in the Discogs forum. That's why I hate, HATE participating in the forum.
  • hafler3o 2 months ago

    Nik's assessment seems to start from not knowing. Sometimes I also have no idea but offer my opinion, just in case it might help.
  • mossinterest 2 months ago

    Showbiz_Kid
    In any other discussion, Nik’s word would have settled it, but here?

    Exactly. Obsessed over one letter capitalized. One letter. There are hundreds of thousands of submissions with wrong labels, companies, credits, baoi, etc., etc. Very suspect. Makes one wonder. What's the motif?
  • scenescof 2 months ago

    scenescof edited 2 months ago
    eighties1

    I believe we use what is written on the release.


    So did I.
    We don’t have to follow guidelines any more either.
    It’s a free for all basically
  • _dreamer 2 months ago

    mossinterest
    There are hundreds of thousands of submissions with wrong labels, companies, credits, baoi, etc., etc.


    I can only speak for myself, when i see those i ask for users to make the changes (voting or not) or i'll make the changes myself.

    But this situation is different.
    eighties1 did a correct edit (based on the Guidelines as they were written and seen at the time) and got an EI vote.

    I've made this type of edits myself (just a few) based on the same Guideline and would never imagine that an EI vote would be acceptable in this conditions.
  • mossinterest 2 months ago

    _dreamer
    But this situation is different.
    eighties1 did a correct edit (based on the Guidelines as they were written and seen at the time) and got an EI vote.

    Repeating myself AGAIN
    The revert wasn't for the initial edit. The revert was for user repeating the same edit after there was objection with reason, before a discussion in forum could even be initiated. That's against the guidelines.

    So, y'all still reject the db manager's opinion, and the artist rendition. I even observed insults against the manager for weighing in, after he was summoned by the OP. WTH is going on here?
  • Hieronymus2001 2 months ago

    mossinterest
    WTH is going on here?


    Group therapy probably... nik made his statement. End of discussion.
  • www-the-shop-fr 2 months ago

    eighties1
    According to the guideline above, it seems clear that capitalization for hyphenated words should be as written on the release:

    a self-made man -> A Self-made Man
    A Self-made Man -> A Self-made Man
    A Self-Made Man -> A Self-Made Man
    A SELF-MADE MAN -> A Self-made Man


    +1, end of the discussion
  • chn74 2 months ago

    Hieronymus2001
    nik made his statement. End of discussion

    More like he's washed his hands of the issue.
  • Showbiz_Kid 2 months ago

    Woo hoo! I'm Post #60!!!
  • www-the-shop-fr 2 months ago

  • eighties1 2 months ago

    nik
    I don't know. I'd do:

    A SELF-MADE MAN -> A Self-Made Man

    especially if that is supported elsewhere.


    Maybe Diognes_The_Fox will know. nik seems to be unsure.
  • mossinterest 2 months ago

    You've got to be kidding! This may well be the most ridiculous thread in forum history.
  • hafler3o 2 months ago

    mossinterest
    You've got to be kidding! This may well be the most ridiculous thread in forum history.


    What exactly is ridiculous about straightening out permanently a guideline a couple of people seem intent on misinterpreting. Discogs chose Start Case capitalisation. A hyphenated word is a word containing a hyphen. The word starts with a capital letter. The hyphen does not split one word into two (we have something groovy for that already, the 'space'). Only use the caps in a hyphenated word if it is explicitly and unambiguously shown on a release. Follow that and you follow the guidelines, ok?
  • Diognes_The_Fox 2 months ago

    nik
    A SELF-MADE MAN -> A Self-Made Man


    this
  • Violent-Power 2 months ago

    Diognes_The_Fox
    this


    It might be a good idea to update the guidelines to reflect this. I recently added a few releases with hyphenated words in titles and especially avoided using capitalization on the 2nd parts because of the guidelines.
  • el_duro 2 months ago

    el_duro edited 2 months ago
    Violent-Power
    Diognes_The_Fox
    this

    It might be a good idea to update the guidelines to reflect this


    +1

    Diognes_The_Fox, can you give an example for what is meant with the second part of the abbreviations, contractions and hyphenations guideline?

    [...] except where all caps have been used, which should be turned to lower case.


    Capitalized abbreviations:
    PROF. = Prof.
    REV. = Rev.

    Capitalized contractions:
    LET'S = Let's
    I'M = I'm

    Capitalized hyphenations:
    A SELF-MADE MAN = A Self-Made Man

    So:
    ICE-CREAM-FLAVORED = Ice-Cream-Flavored ?
    ADD-ON = Add-On ?
    PRE-SCHOOL = Pre-School ?
    THRILL-SEEKING = Thrill-Seeking ?

    Thanks

    edit for typo
  • mossinterest 2 months ago

    That just looks better, more professional for a title, anyway. In business, in U.S anyway, you always cap Both-Words in a title that is hyphenated.
  • hafler3o 2 months ago

    Diognes_The_Fox
    this

    why? guidelines do not support it.
  • Showbiz_Kid 2 months ago

    Duuuuuuude... give it up. Really. Move on and do something productive.

    Edit: Hey wow! Now I'm Post #70 as well!
  • eighties1 2 months ago

    hafler3o
    Diognes_The_Foxthis
    why? guidelines do not support it.

    I'd like to know the reason too, since I received an EI vote for following a general rule.
  • mjb 2 months ago

    Wait, what did we decide about Parlez-vous?
    https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/774550
  • 6006 2 months ago

    It’s funny how everyone complies with the Discogs style to capitalise every word, ignoring language style practices the world over for a consistent database style, but now is seeking recourse to grammar and linguistics in order to deviate from the principle. Of course it’s “Parlez-Vous”. It’s much more intuitive and easy for users and thus fully in line with management’s strategy to make submitting less painful. Both nik and dtf’s answers prove it.
  • hafler3o 2 months ago

    Showbiz_Kid
    Duuuuuuude... give it up. Really. Move on and do something productive... !


    Oh no, I'm going to get an answer here I hope.
    Nik contradicts his earlier stance with a 'I don't know' post and clearly has been out of the loop on guidelines. Next staff member just parrots the 1st staff member response.

    The majority of experienced users (I've been around a bit too, 'dude' is it?) interpret the guideline correctly. No item in my collection is capitalised this way, because it follows the guideline. Change it and I'm fine with that but to just 'say' stuff without showing how they reach that conclusion wrt guidelines is just pathetic. As I said this needs resolving.
  • hafler3o 2 months ago

    6006
    It’s funny how everyone complies with the Discogs style to capitalise every word, ignoring language style practices the world over for a consistent database style, but now is seeking recourse to grammar and linguistics in order to deviate from the principle...


    Agreed. Rowing the established methods backwards without saying so.
  • Showbiz_Kid 2 months ago

    Fact is, from this point on, anything posted that is contrary to the decisions of the guys who actually RUN this place is nothing more than sour grapes and temper tantrums. Everyone loses now and then. The measure of a man is how he takes it.

    Hafler, you literally just took 6006’s comment 180 degrees out of context. You excerpted the bit you like, and ignored the bit you didn’t. Nik and Diognes gave an answer, but you hate it. So? No one says you have to like it, but you DO have to abide by it.
  • _dreamer 2 months ago

    Showbiz_Kid
    Everyone loses now and then

    It has nothing to do with winning or losing.

    hafler3o
    I'm going to get an answer here I hope.

    It is about seeking the kind of answer that might remove the feeling that starting and replying to threads like this one or the "Parlez-vous Français ?" one is just a waste of time.

    I also hope a compreensive answer will be placed by staff here.
  • Showbiz_Kid 2 months ago

    eighties1
    I received an EI vote for following a general rule.

    No, as has been explained several times, you received the EI for violating RSG §14.3.3.
  • Showbiz_Kid 2 months ago

    _dreamer
    It has nothing to do with winning or losing

    So you say. But it sure smells different to me.

    _dreamer
    waste of time.

    It IS a waste of time. Especially after folks refuse to accept even Staff decisions.
  • taalem 2 months ago

    Showbiz_Kid
    Especially after folks refuse to accept even Staff decisions.


    staff decisions that contradict guidelines are always a bit hard to swallow.
  • avalon67 2 months ago

    Showbiz_Kid
    from this point on, anything posted that is contrary to the decisions of the guys who actually RUN this place


    Diognes_The_Fox

    Ultimately all you make the decisions here. It's a community built database.
  • hafler3o 2 months ago

    Showbiz_Kid
    hate it.


    No I want a guideline that matches a forum concensus, in the event of a new or grey area. This is not even one of those.

    I want an explanation on how x becomes y over the years.

    I do abide by the guidelines, you obviously prefer to abide by a mgmt 'decision' that reads more like a well-meaning visitor comment (don't know, I'd do x, external sources?!)

    I'm not going to bother talking about any perceived frustration of mine on your part. Would you like me to troll your future threads with the same shit?
  • el_duro 2 months ago

    _dreamer
    It is about seeking the kind of answer that might remove the feeling that starting and replying to threads like this one or the "Parlez-vous Français ?" one is just a waste of time.


    taalem
    staff decisions that contradict guidelines are always a bit hard to swallow.


    hafler3o
    I want an explanation on how x becomes y over the years.


    My sentiments exactly
  • Diognes_The_Fox 2 months ago

    Apologies here, I thought I was capping off a done deal on this one.

    I will review and make a more thorough assessment when I have a free moment.
  • Pheenixx 2 months ago

    Diognes_The_Fox
    Apologies here, I thought I was capping off a done deal on this one.

    I will review and make a more thorough assessment when I have a free moment.

    Any chance you could do this same on this other thread too?

    Definition of what does and doesn't count as "official" web-sourced images

    Been asking for clarification for months now whilst people continue to argue back and forth, nothing gets resolved and the matter just festers...
  • mjb 2 months ago

    Diognes_The_Fox
    when I have a free moment

    Funny guy.
  • Diognes_The_Fox 2 months ago

    Pheenixx
    Any chance you could do this same on this other thread too?


    When the image is sourced from the label/artist's page, leave it be until it can be replaced.

    If it's lifted from ebay/45cat/fan sites/etc, disable & report.
  • Showbiz_Kid 2 months ago

    Hey everyone,

    I apologize for my snark. Sometimes my emotions run high and get the best of me. (Also, I should not write Forum posts at 1AM!).

    I am sorry for any offense given. I just want to see this thing finalized.
  • typoman2 2 months ago

    _dreamer
    It is about seeking the kind of answer that might remove the feeling that starting and replying to threads like this one or the "Parlez-vous Français ?" one is just a waste of time.

    hafler3o
    I want an explanation on how x becomes y over the years.

    I agree 100% doing many edits based on RSG §1.2.2.c myself and having given EI's for reverting my edits – based on RSG and former rulings.
    Diognes_The_Fox
    I will review and make a more thorough assessment when I have a free moment.

    That would be much appreciated.
    Just saying "this" and not making clear this case is an exception of the norm means devaluating the appropriate RSG and former rulings. If staff wants users to follow and respect RSG they are obliged to do so as well – and if not explain why.
    You might also think about evaluating the given EI – an acceptable reason (artist web site) has been given days after the fact. Is RSG §20.2.6 also ripe for the bin?
  • TopCats45s 2 months ago

    If you think it's hard to read this thread, try reading Hyphens. Ha ha, thought it might help.
  • hafler3o 2 months ago

    TopCats45s
    If you think it's hard to read this thread, try reading Hyphens. Ha ha, thought it might help.

    Indeed! This is why we bin the 'types' of joined words with a simple across the board solution of words (or word particles) joined via a hyphen (blind also to language specific rules) to be treated as one word. Otherwise we can just say 'treat a hyphen as whitespace and use existing caps guideline on the now separate words'. Job done.
  • itsgreatshakes 2 months ago

    I go away for a week and this is what we're arguing over. Discogs will never change.
  • Showbiz_Kid 2 months ago

    hafler3o
    'treat a hyphen as whitespace and use existing caps guideline on the now separate words'. Job done.

    I'd support that.
  • TopCats45s 2 months ago

    hafler3o
    treat a hyphen as whitespace

    Showbiz_Kid
    I'd support that.

    Me too.
  • mossinterest 2 months ago

    hafler3o
    treat a hyphen as whitespace

    I'd support that too
    hafler3o
    and use existing caps guideline
  • itsgreatshakes 2 months ago

    TopCats45s
    hafler3otreat a hyphen as whitespace

    Showbiz_KidI'd support that.

    Me too.


    The fact that the guideline would need to be that specific only proves what a ridiculous conversation this is. Shouldn't we strive for a little flexibility rather than trying to super-define everything in the guidelines?
  • TopCats45s 2 months ago

    itsgreatshakes
    A little flexibility

    Ya have a point there - What would we do without these entertaining forum threads?
  • typoman2 2 months ago

    typoman2 edited 2 months ago
    I don't see a valid reason to change a long standing rule because of a minor amount of cases where this might be better.
    Still the way how it is on release is the preferred way to do it and the majority of these are French where it would be against grammar as well. It isn't an approvement at all but for the pleasure of a minority.
    We haven't changed the apostrophe rule for the French, so why now this one?
  • mossinterest 2 months ago

    So, no flexibility when it comes to one word being capped in a title, even if that's the way the artist did it. Doscogs RULES!!!
    Literally!!!
  • _dreamer 2 months ago

    Diognes_The_Fox
    I will review and make a more thorough assessment

    I trust this ^^

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