• JoshPeer 2 months ago

    Sometimes rank points do not mean knowledge or awareness of etiquette.

    I recently edited this release. My version had a slightly different runout on the A-Side, I added it and then listed the two as variant 1 and 2. I then received a NmC vote saying I need to add my B-Side runout again even if it's the same.

    This of course is not in the guidelines, this release is basically CC as all runout/company/credit information has now been added and I even went so far as adding photographs of the runouts. All information on the release page can be verified by my photos other than the one variant that was of course added by the user who cast the vote.

    So even though all information is 100% verifiable and correct including using proper notation in runouts for untranscribable symbols and capitalizing all words in FTF-Description this just got a NmC!

    Been lots of forum talk of best practice for variants but I've never seen a consensus developed. And who gives NmC votes for things that haven't made it to the guidelines yet? That's not even allowed by the guidelines!!
  • TopCats45s 2 months ago

    Vote may have been harsh - but, you really should not change the existing runouts.
  • _dreamer 2 months ago

    TopCats45s
    Vote may have been harsh - but, you really should not change the existing runouts.

    +1

    You left Variant 1 with "CC inside Box" on Side A description and [Boxed CC] on Side B Runout Data.
  • JoshPeer 2 months ago

    TopCats45s
    but, you really should not change the existing runouts.


    How did I change existing runouts? They are still intact.
    _dreamer
    You left Variant 1 with "CC inside Box" on Side A description and [Boxed CC] on Side B Runout Data.


    As I'd mentioned in my sub notes, I'd wondered if the two variants were actually the same and that the one was not a variant but just had missed the | that were on mine. I edited the B side runout as it is the same as mine and proper notation is to enter that way, I was leaving the notation for the A side variant as it is the one I don't have. These changes aren't guidelines, ie. proper notation but it's pretty commonly understood we use square brackets. Unlike on how we enter variants this was actually agreed in the BaOI Best Practices Thread run by management. The only thing I didn't edit was the runout variant I didn't have.

    You'll have to explain which exact edit was the one I shouldn't have done? Do you mean correcting the notation for transcribing the Squared CC? Does this mean I shouldn't fix notation when I find it incorrectly entered but I'm not actually editing the runout?

    The guidelines still do not allow for these types of votes regardless and having the ability to vote means the responsibility of knowing how to use it. I would'v also thought a friendly comment would've been called for which I would've gladly addressed.
  • _dreamer 2 months ago

    JoshPeer
    Does this mean I shouldn't fix notation when I find it incorrectly entered

    No it doesn't. If you find it incorrectly entered, you state on what basis you're editing it and change it (so that it doesn't look like a preference edit).

    Anyway, it stood difficult to read after your edit.

    JoshPeer
    a friendly comment

    This is what i would have done, but that's me...
  • JoshPeer 2 months ago

    _dreamer
    This is what i would have done, but that's me...


    It's what we all should do when it's not guideline mandated, in fact RSG §20.2.2 makes it clear we can only vote using the guidelines as the guide.

    But for my own sake, can you clarify which part of my edit is being frowned upon. Not being difficult but am curious, I don't think I'm quite catching the drift here.
  • hafler3o 2 months ago

    What's with the preference edit of label matrix description and also capitalising 'side'. There is a caps rule for BAOI and this is not following it in any of the BAOI fields.
    Side A or B requires no hyphen but A-side does.
  • _dreamer 2 months ago

    Matrix / Runout (Runout, Side-A, Etched, CC inside Box, Variant 1): -D5A - CC - 20
    Matrix / Runout (Runout, Side-A, Etched, Variant 2): ||| —D5A-[Boxed CC]— 20
    Matrix / Runout (Runout, Side-B, Etched, Variant 1, Variant 2): D5B-[Boxed CC] 20

    This way, beside capitalization of the description field being wrong, looks fine to me.
    You just did not sourced why you have made the change from "CC inside Box" to "[Boxed CC]" and why is "CC inside Box" in Variant 1 Side A and "[Boxed CC]" in Variant 1 Side B.
  • Silvermo 2 months ago

    Manegme t have adviced against introducing non-existent symbols (like brackets) into the mattix/runout. So that is incorrect. We are also advised to use the same formating as already in the sub when adding new variants (unless the existing is compleatly incorrect). I also beleave the consensus is to not use variant 1 & 2 but to repeat the runout/matrix stings for each variant.
  • _dreamer 2 months ago

    Silvermo
    the consensus is to not use variant 1 & 2 but to repeat the runout/matrix stings for each variant.


    I wasn't aware of this one... sorry.
  • ziggiole 2 months ago

    But still describe as variant 1, variant 2 etc...
  • JoshPeer 2 months ago

    hafler3o
    What's with the preference edit of label matrix description


    And why does it seem everyone jumps on the preference editing accusation wagon? Does it really look like I was doing that? I've never in any of my edits ever edited for preference. I only make changes when I'm in a submission adding or changing incorrect information.

    hafler3o
    There is a caps rule for BAOI and this is not following it in any of the BAOI fields.


    In my sub notes I explained I corrected the capitalization, that was the only reason they were changed if they had been capitalized I would've left as is. And I was adding a runout line so I made everything the same for the descriptions that were now common to all description fields. Also all descriptions are to be separated by commas which they weren't so I had to go in and edit the description regardless.
    grammatically "Label side A" is improper as the item being used as a noun is "Side" with "Label" being an adjective, the separation of a comma was needed and is required by the guidelines.
    Before my edit the capitalization was applied randomly to the words in the description field, this is not correct (that's not a preference edit btw). Now all the descriptions, which are all individual nouns are capitalized.

    And what rule other than RSG §1.2.1 are you referring to? The only time hyphenation is mentioned I'm aware of is RSG §1.2.2.c and that says absolutely nothing other than making sure they all start with a capital letter.

    hafler3o
    Side A or B requires no hyphen but A-side does

    English grammar perfectly allows the use of the hyphen this way, it is specifically for combining two words that describe a noun as a combined idea, ie "Side-A" as a noun.

    So to cover the bases here again, I went in there and corrected (because it was incorrect) the missing commas, the missing capitalizations and added hyphens while I was at it because having to make two edits to make the descriptions correct I wouldn't have thought I still had to worry about preference edits. I changed an incorrect sentence fragment "Label side A" to two nouns instead which was now proper.
  • JoshPeer 2 months ago

    _dreamer
    You just did not sourced why you have made the change from "CC inside Box" to "[Boxed CC]" and why is "CC inside Box" in Variant 1 Side A and "[Boxed CC]" in Variant 1 Side B.


    Ah ok I see what you meant with your earlier comment.

    Thanks
  • JoshPeer 2 months ago

    Silvermo
    Manegme t have adviced against introducing non-existent symbols (like brackets) into the mattix/runout. So that is incorrect.


    That's not true according to the last advice in the BaOI Best Practices Thread which I understood to trump other threads on the same topics as this one was management started and supported
  • JoshPeer 2 months ago

    Silvermo
    the consensus is to not use variant 1 & 2 but to repeat the runout/matrix stings for each variant.


    There was no where close to consensus on this. There was a handful of supporters a handful that didn't and that's about where it ended.
  • JoshPeer 2 months ago

    I firmly believe that long time users that go around and abuse their voting privileges by making unsanctioned votes should at least be temporarily suspended from voting. I'm being asked to follow obscure forum decisions that are far from decisions anyways by the use of ironically illegal votes which actually break written guidelines.

    So far the only criticisms of those edits I've gathered was the changing of formatting in the B-Side runout without a given explanation and not explaining the different formatting in the two A-Side variants. Thank you _dreamer
  • hafler3o 2 months ago

    JoshPeer
    Does it really look like I was doing that?


    Obviously someone reached over your shoulder and did it then.
    I will repeat myself: Side A or B requires no hyphen but A-side does.

    You seem to think that the capitalisation is now ok? I can't make out what you are saying there. You are not following the caps rule at all.

    As for the matrix update, you messed up. And it's still confusing, CC inside box / [boxed CC] which one is it?
  • JoshPeer 2 months ago

    hafler3o
    You seem to think that the capitalisation is now ok?


    Yes obviously I do. Why is it now wrong? It might be but I'm not sure why and according to which guideline?

    hafler3o
    I will repeat myself: Side A or B requires no hyphen but A-side does.


    Are you pretending that I did not answer this already? It is grammatically correct to add the hyphen as I have, you don't have to but you can, it makes it clear that it refers to one singular idea without a separate adjective and noun. There's nothing to argue here.

    hafler3o
    As for the matrix update, you messed up. And it's still confusing, CC inside box / [boxed CC] which one is it?


    You seem to be purposefully obtuse here. If I change matrix variant 1 which I don't own then I am definitely making a preference edit only right? I have solely changed the parts that I submitted pictures for, and the current management endorsed practice was to use square brackets. I had to add a runout and I'm not going to add it any way other than identified as best practice. I touched the B-Side solely as I was already correcting the runouts in various ways and I could clearly verify the runout as it was on my copy.

    hafler3o
    Obviously someone reached over your shoulder and did it then.

    And you're just being an arse now. Need another 27k rank points to get treated respectfully I guess.

    I should've stated in sub notes why the formatting variations and edits though.
  • Silvermo 2 months ago

    This forum post from DTF might be of intrest to this tread https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/392356?page=5#7584624
  • _dreamer 2 months ago

    RSG §1.2.1. The standard Discogs rule for artist and label names, joiners, release and track titles, format free text field, index track titles, credits, and headings, is the First Letter Of Each Word Is Capitalized. Track Positions can usually be represented exactly as on the release. All other text (release notes, comments etc) should follow standard English capitalization rules.

    The part i've bolded includes those description fields.

    JoshPeer You wouldn't capitalize "Etched" "Box" "Variant" after a comma in standard English writing. Would you?
  • hafler3o 2 months ago

    JoshPeer
    you don't have to but you can,


    Which is why I called it a preference edit. But no matter, I'm going to ignore you saying I'm being an arse and point out (for someone who obviously is interested in getting things right) that the caps guideline:

    1.2.1. The standard Discogs rule for artist and label names, joiners, release and track titles, format free text field, index track titles, credits, and headings, is the First Letter Of Each Word Is Capitalized. Track Positions can usually be represented exactly as on the release. All other text (release notes, comments etc) should follow standard English capitalization rules.

    The description field for BAOI fall into 'all other text', it is not a named field with 'special' rules.

    You should have added your matrices (without touching the other one) in its entirety, separately. I know this matrix stuff is poorly covered but don't blame me for the guidelines or the edit or silly threads that can't be found when you need 'em. Above all, don't worry about a minor negative vote!
  • _dreamer 2 months ago

    hafler3o
    I'm going to ignore you saying I'm being an arse and point out

    You are a good man, hafler3o! :) :) :)
  • scenescof 2 months ago

    _dreamer
    hafler3oI'm going to ignore you saying I'm being an arse and point out
    You are a good man, hafler3o! :) :) :)


    Yea, shame there aren’t more like them.
    Meanwhile, the vote was Correct.
  • JoshPeer 2 months ago

    _dreamer
    All other text (release notes, comments etc) should follow standard English capitalization rules.

    The part i've bolded includes those description fields.


    This is where I understood differently then, I always grouped description fields in with the FTF field for caps rule, since I have no idea when and where now (and possibly an implanted memory even) I thought this had come up in threads before and description field was said to be part of the all caps rule.

    So the scary part is I've literally purposefully made sure to cap all my words in every description box I've ever filled out in my submissions and edits :/

    Please no one go and run and give me votes on that! Not even after calling you an arse hafler3o.
  • JoshPeer 2 months ago

    scenescof
    Meanwhile, the vote was Correct.


    And unfortunately not for the reasons given with the vote, took me complaining in the forum to find there was a problem. My complaint was not that I may recieve a vote for NmC but that Iwould receive one for the reasons given with that vote, those reasons still stand. But for the smug out there, there you have it, vote has been justified.
  • Silvermo 2 months ago

    Silvermo
    Manegme t have adviced against introducing non-existent symbols (like brackets) into the mattix/runout.


    Sorry I was thinking about how some ppl use brackets to denote etched parts of a mainly stamped runout.
    Of course it is correct to use brackets for logos and such.

    Still incorrect to use a different way of transcribing the runout than what the person who added the first one did however
  • JoshPeer 2 months ago

    hafler3o
    The description field for BAOI fall into 'all other text', it is not a named field with 'special' rules.


    JoshPeer
    I always grouped description fields in with the FTF field for caps rule, since I have no idea when and where now


    Actually I do still think this has been discussed before, normal capitalization rules don't actually seem to be the rule. So generally speaking don't we usually enter things with each item capitalized? eg. Runout, Etched, A-Side, or would it actually go Runout, etched, a-side? Or I guess, Runout, etched, A-side?

    Hasn't this been discussed before?

    Silvermo
    Still incorrect to use a different way of transcribing the runout than what the person who added the first one did however


    Except things change over time and these things end up having different formatting rules applied, the rule is to not go change when that it is the only thing you're changing, the rule does not say to use legacy formatting when adding new information because the original submiter did. I purposefully left his original formatting in place to not step on his toes though, which ironically, is not appreciated as that's exactly what seems to be the problem.
  • hafler3o 2 months ago

    JoshPeer
    So the scary part is I've literally purposefully made sure to cap all my words in every description box I've ever filled out in my submissions and edits :/


    Don't worry, I've done it myself.

    If you are familiar with the 'Oblique Strategies', one says 'Once the search has begun, something will be found'. It kind of sums up the thread. I'm still learning too, and the nails will be going in my box long before learning is finished.
  • JoshPeer 2 months ago

    Silvermo
    This forum post from DTF might be of intrest to this tread https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/392356?page=5#7584624


    Oh my! I had purposefully turned off notifications for this thread, did not imagine I had missed so much in the last 8 months. This very issue (variants) has been a hot button topic. Only read a couple pages worth but looks like there is now some sort of consensus maybe? Kind of that is.
  • hafler3o 2 months ago

    Sorry JoshPeer our messages crossed. For confirmation of caps see this...
    https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/773678#7673713
  • JoshPeer 2 months ago

    hafler3o
    The description field for BAOI fall into 'all other text', it is not a named field with 'special' rules.


    JoshPeer
    Runout, Etched, A-Side, Variant 1 or would it actually go Runout, etched, a-side, variant 1? Or I guess, Runout, etched, A-side, variant 1?


    How do you guys enter this then?
  • JoshPeer 2 months ago

    hafler3o
    Sorry JoshPeer our messages crossed. For confirmation of caps see this...
    https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/773678#7673713


    Ignore my last question, that about sums it up.
  • JoshPeer 2 months ago

    hafler3o
    Sorry JoshPeer our messages crossed. For confirmation of caps see this...
    https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/773678#7673713


    What's funny is that thread shows DTB apparently enters using the "All Caps" in description field as well. Has he changed his ways?
  • scenescof 2 months ago

    JoshPeer
    scenescofMeanwhile, the vote was Correct.

    And unfortunately not for the reasons given with the vote, took me complaining in the forum to find there was a problem. My complaint was not that I may recieve a vote for NmC but that Iwould receive one for the reasons given with that vote, those reasons still stand. But for the smug out there, there you have it, vote has been justified.

    Did I say it was for the reasons given? You seem to be continuing the confrontational tone you’ve taken through the entire thread.
    You’ve learnt something so all’s good, no?
  • hafler3o 2 months ago

    JoshPeer
    Runout, etched, A-side, variant 1


    That should be fine. Interestingly it is also ok to capitalise the word 'code', nik has approved that as the dropdowns use it capitalised. Can't find the thread (as per usual!)
  • hafler3o 2 months ago

    JoshPeer
    ... What's funny is that thread shows DTB apparently enters using the "All Caps" in description field as well. Has he changed his ways?


    DtF has also won the Seattle marathon by taking the odd short-cut ;)
  • JoshPeer 2 months ago

    hafler3o
    JoshPeer
    Runout, etched, A-side, variant 1

    That should be fine


    That thread made some more interesting points that a list of terms wouldn't follow Standard English capitalization rules necessarily as it would follow Standard English Title capitalization rules. The description field is never used for sentences and functions as a "Title" ie. "Description". So then there is that argument that still stands and it looks like DTF still follows this form as well The Moonlighters / Jackie DeShannon - Midnight In Memphis / To Love Somebody, that's from minutes ago.

    scenescof
    Did I say it was for the reasons given?

    There is no good reason to make the post you did other than to scoff.

    scenescof
    You’ve learnt something so all’s good, no?

    And yes I have, the vote cast was in very poor taste, and I am back to not agreeing that the guideline as written would make capitalizing all the words wrong so again it was incorrect. You can only use the guidelines as written to cast votes. These are not sentences so that argument can't be used. And when else other than in a title fashion do you allow sentence fragments in proper English? Well as a title, which is when most words would be capitalized, all nouns and adjectives would be. The argument has been put forth already that this would be proper in hafler3o's provided link and well, as of a few minutes ago is still the favoured format by Diognes.

    So since titles have a Standard English Case rule then it seems there would be no argument for not allowing all caps other than to articles (a, an, the), coordinating conjunctions, and prepositions and the word "to" when used as an infinitive.

    hafler3o
    DtF has also won the Seattle marathon by taking the odd short-cut ;)


    The long and short is that sometimes things just aren't one way or the other. As DTF is our fearless leader I think I'll use this opportunity to follow him down that short-cut if it gets me to the marathon finish line. ;)
  • TopCats45s 2 months ago

    Caps thing, I just make it easy on myself: A side runout etched
  • scenescof 2 months ago

    JoshPeer

    There is no good reason to make the post you did other than to scoff
    )

    Right..........
    I remember you now, arguing about everything and provoking everyone. So I guess you don’t learn, eh?
  • JoshPeer 2 months ago

    scenescof
    Right..........
    I remember you now, arguing about everything and provoking everyone. So I guess you don’t learn, eh?


    And you still barely deserve a response, some things don't change.
  • JoshPeer 2 months ago

    TopCats45s
    Caps thing, I just make it easy on myself: A side runout etched

    In normal English this means that, one of the runouts belonging to some side is etched. The guidelines mandate of Standard English rules only works if we're following the rules the standard tells how to capitalize.

    I think the interesting thing here is that there is room for different application of RSG §1.2.1 as it's written.
    The relevant part is All other text (release notes, comments etc) should follow standard English capitalization rules.
    So this means that there are a few choices that you can use to follow standard English capitalization rules.

    Given the information you want to add being:
    Runout, A-Side, Etched, Variant 1

    There's the rules for capitalization if it's a title, in which case these things as written in caps with no period are a normal title. So the description box is now the title of what follows, which is of course the first variant of the etched A-side runout.

    Next are the standard rules for capitalization in written language. These rules would dictate that any description you entered would have to have a sentence structure requiring at minimum a subject and a verb. So with the example above, Etched, A-side runout, variant 1, being the currently advised format you end up with a sentence fragment. This in and of itself is fine. Problem being that if the guideline we're to follow is for standard English capitalization rules. then the formats we're using need to be something guided by Standard English rules. We can't follow a capitalization rule that doesn't exist right?
    The reason this is important is that you need to know what to capitalize and what rules apply other than just capitalization depending on which format you choose.
    With title case rules then
    Runout, A-Side, Etched, Variant 1
    is normal and follows Standard English Title Case rules which are part of Standard English rules as a whole.
    Etched, A-side runout, variant 1
    Can be used as a sentance fragment but then there's still the rules that this must end with punctuation and contain appropriate punctuation.
    ie, entering as above with no period means the fragment is not following any Standard English rules and is unsupported by the guidelines.
    Entering as, Etched A-side runout variant 1 with no commas is also against Standard English rules and removes the ability to determine subject and therefore adjective and verb.

    Two alternatives exist that meet Standard English rules
    Runout, A-Side, Etched, Variant 1—Title case rules
    Etched, A-side runout, variant 1.—Normal rules, note the need for a period and commas where appropriate.

    If it's of any note Diognes is likely the biggest contributor to the database of incorrectly applied English Standard rules as he uses:
    Runout A-Side Etched Variant 1, this has no actual discernible meaning in english as without commas there's no subject-verb or adjective-noun relationships. Is it an A-side runout thats an etched variant? Who knows, we can't determine if etched is a verb or adjective here.
  • Earjerk 2 months ago

    Given the free text field into which the info is typed, I think everyone will be able to understand quite well what is being indicated, regardless of punctuation. It's just a descriptor, it doesn't have to be a grammatically correct sentence.

    Edit: As an aside, I prefer A-side.
  • JoshPeer 2 months ago

    Earjerk
    Given the free text field into which the info is typed.

    Well a) as everyone points out when talking capitalization, this isn't a FTF
    and b) The guidelines are written as they're written and any release can be voted on at liberty using them as the only reference.

    Earjerk
    It's just a descriptor, it doesn't have to be a grammatically correct sentence.

    I didn't say it had to be a grammatically correct sentence, only that if you did not want to use the English Standard rules for Title case then you were using them for normal case and even a grammatically incorrect sentence requires a period and commas to identify subjects and verbs, otherwise we are using no standard at all.

    I'm also not suggesting best practice but simply expounding on the actual meaning and implied usage of the guideline as it is curretly written.
    A lot of people seem to only care that the guideline says "Discogs Capitalization Rules" don't apply and then stop there. After that it specifically says we are using English Standard rules.
  • JoshPeer 2 months ago

    Earjerk
    Edit: As an aside, I prefer A-side.


    Not sure why this made me laugh. ;)

    Possibly unintended irony? The proper placement of punctuation being brilliantly illustrated there ;)
  • Earjerk 2 months ago

    This thread.
  • Earjerk 2 months ago

    JoshPeer
    when talking capitalization, this isn't a FTF


    The phrase "a FTF" really bugs me. I really want it to be an FTF.
  • massenmedium 2 months ago

    I think it should be renamed the Free Format Section FFS.
  • JoshPeer 2 months ago

    Earjerk
    The phrase "a FTF" really bugs me. I really want it to be an FTF.


    I was incidentally thinking the exact same thing as I typed that!!!! But those Standard English rules you know!
  • Earjerk 2 months ago

    JoshPeer
    But those Standard English rules you know!


    I'm a freestyle ellipsis addict... Don't talk to me.

    massenmedium
    FFS


    I see what you did there. Ha
  • JoshPeer 2 months ago

    Earjerk
    I'm a freestyle ellipsis addict who doesn't want you to talk to me... Don't talk to me.
  • Earjerk 2 months ago

    That's just me freestylin', see? You can talk all you want.
  • _dreamer 2 months ago

    This is how i insert it:
    Side A, label, ...
    Side B, label, ...
    Side A, runout, etched, ...
    Side B, runout, etched, ...
  • andygrayrecords 2 months ago

    _dreamer
    This is how i insert it:
    Side A, label, ...
    Side B, label, ...
    Side A, runout, etched, ...
    Side B, runout, etched, ...


    Ditto but I omit the commas.
  • el_duro 2 months ago

    This user has it right in his profile:

    Acceptable BAOI text for Description fields:
    Barcode (Text)
    Barcode (Scanned)
    Matrix / Runout (Side A runout)
    Matrix / Runout (A-side runout)
    Matrix / Runout (Runout, side A)
    Matrix / Runout (Side A runout, hand-etched)
    Matrix / Runout (Side A runout, stamped)

    Unacceptable:
    Barcode (text)—must be uppercase
    Barcode (String)—If you wish to enter the spaceless/dashless barcode, please use simply 'Barcode' (with no description). This barcode is only allowed if it differs from the Scanned barcode.
    Matrix / Runout (A side)—a side of what? broccoli?
    Matrix / Runout (Side A Runout, Hand-Etched)—only the first word may be capitalized, unless a proper noun, title, etc.
  • _dreamer 2 months ago

    andygrayrecords
    Ditto but I omit the commas.

    Removing the comma after Side A makes sense for me.

    el_duro
    Matrix / Runout (Side A runout, hand-etched)

    Looks good like this ^^
  • JoshPeer 2 months ago

    _dreamer
    This is how i insert it:
    Side A, label, ...
    Side B, label, ...
    Side A, runout, etched, ...
    Side B, runout, etched, ...


    This seems to be a pretty common method among those who don't capitalize. I would follow the same format but capitalized.

    _dreamer
    Removing the comma after Side A makes sense for me

    Or this

    Just not, no commas or any other separator such as hyphens which I've seen more than I would've thought and is a joiner.

    It's more relevant if the description is used for something like: Stamped into the mould ring.
    Title case: Stamped Into the Mould Ring
    Regular: Stamped into the mould ring.

    The word "the" still wouldn't get capitalized and would be incorrect according to guidelines if capitalized by any of us capitalizers.
  • _dreamer 2 months ago

    JoshPeer
    I would follow the same format but capitalized.

    You're free to enter it as you want despite the suggestions you've been given in this thread.
    I understand now why your edits are being voted instead of commented...
  • LolH 2 months ago

    LolH edited 2 months ago
    JoshPeer
    I would follow the same format but capitalized.

    Capitalized would be incorrect, though.
    RSG §1.2.1"...All other text (release notes, comments etc) should follow standard English capitalization rules."
    Description fields come under this 'jurisdiction'.
  • el_duro 2 months ago

    _dreamer
    I understand now why your edits are being voted instead of commented...


    +1

    JoshPeer
    Just not, no commas or any other separator such as hyphens which I've seen more than I would've thought and is a joiner.


    https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/368670#3425067

    JoshPeer
    us capitalizers


    should have your submissions flagged "Needs Minor Changes".
  • JoshPeer 2 months ago

    _dreamer
    You're free to enter it as you want despite the suggestions you've been given in this thread.
    I understand now why your edits are being voted instead of commented...


    People get quite angry when not agreed with. My submissions never receive negative votes because I take great care to follow the guidelines and management endorsed practice. I suppose the most vocal group is always the right one hey? Diognes doesn't follow your practice either, oh and thousands others on here. And the guidelines don't explicitly endorse your position. But not worth the discussion I suppose. There's always push back when entrenched ways are questioned.

    I don't need suggestions thanks just guidelines. Just as you don't seem to have any care for my suggestions which don't carry as much weight as your own.
    With the ambiguity of the guideline any vote on capitalization in the description field would be incorrect and a vote based off preference. Except of course with, as I already pointed out the words that can not be capitalized in Title case.

    LolH
    Capitalized would be incorrect, though.
    RSG §1.2.1"...All other text (release notes, comments etc) should follow standard English capitalization rules."
    Description fields come nder this 'jurisdiction'.


    I've extensively addressed the interpretations of this above. Standard English Title Case is a section of Standard English Capitalization rules. The guidelines don't tell us which case of Standard English Capitalization rules to follow. So one can choose either title case or sentence case. That would then just be preference but in either option satisfy the guidelines. And you certainly can't say the sentence case is the preferred method although Nik has said he prefers it because the database's single most prolific contributor Diognes, uses caps.

    Side A Runout, Etched is easily understood as the title of what will follow, the etched runout from the A side, you know this because the title tells you that's what it is; it is not simply understood as a sentence fragment that would therefore start with a cap and only have lowercase following although one could choose this interpretation if they wanted.
  • JoshPeer 2 months ago

    el_duro
    should have your submissions flagged "Needs Minor Changes".


    Go flag about 100k of Diognes first
  • LolH 2 months ago

    JoshPeer
    The guidelines don't tell us which case of Standard English Capitalization rules to follow

    I think you're just being selective here. The guideline clearly means standard capitalisation, not Title Case.
    See further clarification here https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/368670#3425067
    "A side run-out, hand-etched" looks correct.
    "A Side Run-Out, Hand-Etched" is hard to read.

    So standard English caps in the descriptions please.
  • JoshPeer 2 months ago

    el_duro
    https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/368670#3425067


    I'm aware of Nik's opinion and that was five years ago. But be very careful with making votes that aren't supported by guidelines but a small majority of vocal forum users. I would start an SR for any I receive as it would be simple harassment.
  • _dreamer 2 months ago

    JoshPeer
    People get quite angry


    Not me! I take my pills every morning... :)
  • LolH 2 months ago

    _dreamer
    Not me! I take my pills every morning... :)

    Yup, me too. Bit of a top up in the evening too :-)
  • LolH 2 months ago

    JoshPeer
    that was five years ago

    That doesn't really matter how long ago it was, unless he comes back with a reversal of opinion.
    It is not something I would vote on as it is not something that would actually return an incorrect result, but I would change it if I was editing the submission.
  • JoshPeer 2 months ago

    LolH
    I think you're just being selective here. The guideline clearly means standard capitalisation, not Title Case.
    See further clarification here https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/368670#3425067
    "A side run-out, hand-etched" looks correct.
    "A Side Run-Out, Hand-Etched" is hard to read.


    In this same thread Nik let's us know that runout is not a word and it should be run out. That's a few posts down
    nik
    "Run out" is probably correct, I don't see the other versions in the dictionary :-/


    The entire point here is that the guidelines are the only guide for casting votes and the rest of this is forum discussion that can lead to established practice but that does not make it votable. And for those of us who spend more time contributing according to guidelines than reading endless forum discussions we should not be at risk of bad votes.

    LolH
    The guideline clearly means standard capitalisation, not Title Case.


    Why is this clear? It is actually explicitly not stating which case to use, Both Title case and Sentence Case are parts of standard English capitalization rules.. Why do we want to treat the description boxes like sentences even though it is never used for that?

    The common interpretation here seems to be that "standard English capitalization rules" somehow translates to "sentence", it does not interpret that way at all excepting that that was Niks preference.

    I could care less which type of notation we use but grammatically the description box is not being used for sentence structure and titles what is being entered in the next line over. So despite popular convention here in the forums use of sentence structure rules has less support in any standard english rules.
  • Earjerk 2 months ago

    Earjerk
    This thread.
  • JoshPeer 2 months ago

    LolH
    That doesn't really matter how long ago it was, unless he comes back with a reversal of opinion.
    It is not something I would vote on as it is not something that would actually return an incorrect result, but I would change it if I was editing the submission.


    Except we all know that Nik's word is no longer law, it's even in the "Undocumented Guidelines" that it isn't. Certainly doesn't trump guidelines, which is why the guidelines change over time, and is why I have my notifications turned on for the Guideline Change Log.

    And what you're suggesting is preference editing, which if my memory serves me right was what I was originally accused of. On top of that as I've been looking through the edits to see accepted practice I do not see any of you ever editing Diognes contributions that way at all, in fact his capitalization is almost never touched by anyone further down the line, referring to the forum regulars that is.
  • _dreamer 2 months ago

    Just added this thread link on Mickey Mouse And His Friends / Pluto And His Phonograph edit comments.

    Pinging blackbookpress that has casted the NMiC vote and was not invited to this thread.
  • JoshPeer 2 months ago

    For anyone counting. Really though no one is counting.
    The linked forum thread that's being used to support sentence structure capitalization use.
    LolH
    See further clarification here https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/368670#3425067


    Was not supported by I'd say the majority of those discussing, ie Eviltoastman and ChampionJames disagreed fairly strongly and brought up along with others the exact same reasoning and points I have above. To make it even more interesting the other direction given by Nik in that thread, the spelling of "run out", was explicitly decided by the posters to ignore as he was wrong and didn't quite have his grammatical facts straight.
  • punkergott 2 months ago

    LolH
    I think you're just being selective here. The guideline clearly means standard capitalisation, not Title Case.
    See further clarification here https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/368670#3425067
    "A side run-out, hand-etched" looks correct.
    "A Side Run-Out, Hand-Etched" is hard to read.

    So standard English caps in the descriptions please.


    +1
  • itsgreatshakes 2 months ago

    itsgreatshakes edited 2 months ago
    Earjerk
    EarjerkThis thread.


    We have one of these every week.

    https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/778002

    We really need to lighten up on the syntax, at least within reason. You have thousands of users making additions to the database. You can't expect everyone to interpret the guidelines exactly alike nor to enter everything in exactly the same format.
  • LolH 2 months ago

    JoshPeer
    And what you're suggesting is preference editing, which if my memory serves me right was what I was originally accused of.

    Nope, not preference editing. Correcting, based on my interpretation of the guideline and backed up by a statement by a member of Management. Doesn't matter how long ago it was made, until it is rescinded.
    As I said, it is not something I would vote on.

    JoshPeer
    I do not see any of you ever editing Diognes contributions that way at all, in fact his capitalization is almost never touched by anyone further down the line, referring to the forum regulars that is.

    Which means what, exactly? Apart from diddly-squat.
  • JoshPeer 2 months ago

    LolH
    Correcting, based on my interpretation of the guideline and backed up by... a member of Management


    Could be a pretty concise way of summing up my position as well.

    LolH
    Which means what, exactly? Apart from diddly-squat.


    That you're at best being disingenuous and at worst only preference editing those you feel have less clout than you. You meaning anyone inclusive of that statement I made.
  • JoshPeer 2 months ago

    itsgreatshakes
    We really need to lighten up on the syntax, at least within reason. You have thousands of users making additions to the database. You can't expect everyone to interpret the guidelines exactly alike nor to enter everything in exactly the same format.


    Thank you sir! The exact point I was hoping to communicate.
  • LolH 2 months ago

    JoshPeer
    That you're at best being disingenuous and at worst only preference editing those you feel have less clout than you. You meaning anyone inclusive of that statement I made.

    That's quite a stretch to conclude that. I take offence at your suggestion.
    This is an enormous database. Just because said user is very prolific it doesn't mean we stumble across his releases all the time. I can assure you, I would not pick and choose what edits I make based on who has edited it previously. Yes, there are certain users' subs I would leave well alone simply because of experience (some users are, shall we say, a little possessive), but if I choose to edit a sub, I wouldn't not edit part of it just because of who has submitted it or previously edited.
  • LolH 2 months ago

    JoshPeer
    Could be a pretty concise way of summing up my position as well.

    Apart from the being backed up by a member of Management bit. Just because Diognes chooses to enter that way, does not necessarily mean it is correct. There are many, many long time users on this site, high ranking members, who feel that (some of) the guidelines do not apply to them. Now, I am in no way suggesting that is Diognes' position, but you get the point.
  • JoshPeer 2 months ago

    LolH
    That's quite a stretch to conclude that. I take offence at your suggestion.
    This is an enormous database. Just because said user is very prolific it doesn't mean we stumble across his releases all the time. I can assure you, I would not pick and choose what edits I make based on who has edited it previously. Yes, there are certain users' subs I would leave well alone simply because of experience (some users are, shall we say, a little possessive), but if I choose to edit a sub, I wouldn't not edit part of it just because of who has submitted it or previously edited.


    I was not trying to directly point that statement at you! I made it plural with the intention of making it impersonal. I apologize for offence taken. My point was that it is a well documented usage and might even be the format used in the majority of releases. This goes unchallenged until it seems I bring it up in the forum and I receive all sorts of "I'd edit" "I'd vote NmiC" comments but as I've literally scrolled through hundreds of edits of the vocal users here and other well know contributors it becomes very obvious this is rarely done, in fact there's a bunch of C votes from some vocal members here to other high ranking contributors where all caps is used, didn't find a single NMiC (though I'm sure there has been). So kind of makes these statements seem bullying and disingenuous if you understand what I mean.

    LolH
    Just because Diognes chooses to enter that way, does not necessarily mean it is correct

    It is tacit approval though, if this is a member who makes a sentence in the forums that is quoted as the gospel/best practice, then him typing words in a certain manner in the submission form is the same. If he types "'Side A Runout, Etched' is my preference", in this thread, it is the same as him typing "Side A Runout, Etched" in the description box. It is implicit in looking at his contributions which is far easier to scroll through for best practice than this forum.

    LolH
    There are many, many long time users on this site, high ranking members, who feel that (some of) the guidelines do not apply to them


    I'm not suggesting that Diognes is doing this though as I have made arguments to the effect(?Or not it would seem) that the guidelines are not written in a way that make it against the guidelines, and management's statements are being used to argue one way or the other, which is why Diognes way of doing things is important.
  • ziggiole 2 months ago

    Jesus..... this whole thread ......
    I understand rules have to be followed, sometimes strictly because it is a database, and sometimes just because things look nicer when added the same way all way through.

    But this thread. Going on and on....soon this is going bananas.....
  • _dreamer 2 months ago

    ziggiole
    soon this is going bananas

    I like bananas! :)
  • hatfulofelt 2 months ago

    I like ananas!
  • _dreamer 2 months ago

    hatfulofelt
    I like ananas!


    Me too... but i preffer bananas!
  • itsgreatshakes 2 months ago

    LolH
    Apart from the being backed up by a member of Management bit.


    You're referring to something Nik wrote in a thread five years ago?

    Funny thing about Nik. Users tend to quote him and take his word as gospel when they agree with him and totally ignore him when they don't.
  • hatfulofelt 2 months ago

    itsgreatshakes
    You're referring to something Nik wrote in a thread five years ago?

    Funny thing about Nik. Users tend to quote him and take his word as gospel when they agree with him and totally ignore him when they don't.

    Silly humans.
  • itsgreatshakes 2 months ago

    hatfulofelt
    Silly humans.


    Very.
  • hatfulofelt 2 months ago

    Interesting, when one has so much to say about a topic, but knows better... this is one of those times, for me. :)
  • itsgreatshakes 2 months ago

    hatfulofelt
    Interesting, when one has so much to say about a topic, but knows better... this is one of those times, for me. :)


    Congratulations. ;)
  • hatfulofelt 2 months ago

    Thank you.
  • hafler3o 2 months ago

    ziggiole
    Jesus..... this whole thread ......


    If the invested human energy could be harnessed... maybe some kind of stretchy band?
  • LolH 2 months ago

    itsgreatshakes
    You're referring to something Nik wrote in a thread five years ago?

    As I said earlier, it doesn't matter how long ago it was said, it's there in black and white - whether you agree with it or not.
  • hatfulofelt 2 months ago

    Could be clear black and white
    Make a decision
    Got a need inside and I don't know why
    It's a strong feeling that grows and grows
    One day, my life is out the door
    Next day, you show me what it's for
    One day, I think I know myself
    Next day, you leave me on the shelf
  • itsgreatshakes 2 months ago

    LolH
    itsgreatshakesYou're referring to something Nik wrote in a thread five years ago?
    As I said earlier, it doesn't matter how long ago it was said, it's there in black and white - whether you agree with it or not.


    Apparently, if we go by what members of management say or do, either way is perfectly acceptable. I can agree with that.
  • blackbookpress 2 months ago

    blackbookpress edited 2 months ago
    So, who want's to fix this mess now? God forbid I vote again, or correct anything. However, as it stand rights now, and as mentioned here, in the forum, this is not correct, and, as user was told, this is also hard to interpret.
  • OLDFRIENDSFORSALE 2 months ago

    JoshPeer
    How do you guys enter this then?


    clean with proper capitalization, punctuation and square brackets?
    like this:

    Matrix / Runout (Side A, label): D5A
    Matrix / Runout (Side B, label): D5B
    Matrix / Runout (Side A, runout etched [boxed], variant 1): -D5A - [CC] - 20
    Matrix / Runout (Side B, runout etched [boxed], variant 2): D5B-[CC] 20
    Matrix / Runout (Side A, runout etched [boxed], variant 2): III -D5A-[CC]- 20
    Matrix / Runout (Side B, runout etched [boxed], variant 2): D5B-[CC] 20

    blackbookpress
    who want's to fix this mess now?

    if i would do it then it will be as in this post...
  • blackbookpress 2 months ago

    OLDFRIENDSFORSALE
    JoshPeerHow do you guys enter this then?

    clean with proper capitalization, punctuation and square brackets?
    like this:

    Matrix / Runout (Side A, label): D5A
    Matrix / Runout (Side B, label): D5B
    Matrix / Runout (Side A, runout etched [boxed], variant 1): -D5A - [CC] - 20
    Matrix / Runout (Side B, runout etched [boxed], variant 2): D5B-[CC] 20
    Matrix / Runout (Side A, runout etched [boxed], variant 2): III -D5A-[CC]- 20
    Matrix / Runout (Side B, runout etched [boxed], variant 2): D5B-[CC] 20

    blackbookpresswho want's to fix this mess now?
    if i would do it then it will be as in this post...


    Technically, variants should be entered following the pattern of this original entry, which would mean:

    Matrix / Runout (Runout, side A, etched, CC inside Box, variant 1): -D5A - CC - 20
    Matrix / Runout (Runout, side B, etched, CC inside Box, variant 1): D5B-CC 20
    Matrix / Runout (Runout, side A, etched, CC inside Box, variant 2): III -D5A-CC- 20
    Matrix / Runout (Runout, side B, etched, CC inside Box, variant 2): D5B-CC 20
  • Earjerk 2 months ago

    🍍🍍🍍🍍🍍🍍🍍🍍🍍
  • OLDFRIENDSFORSALE 2 months ago

    itsgreatshakes
    We really need to lighten up on the syntax, at least within reason. You have thousands of users making additions to the database. You can't expect everyone to interpret the guidelines exactly alike nor to enter everything in exactly the same format.


    amen
  • JoshPeer 2 months ago

    blackbookpress
    However, as it stand rights now, and as mentioned here, in the forum, this is not correct, and, as user was told, this is also hard to interpret.


    Now as I mentioned before the more recent discusion of adding variants in groups duplicating information is from a recent discussion and there is actually no consensus let alone a guideline. If you had simply pointed me to the thread discussion I would have happily entered it that way, I do not have a problem with that. Using votes to push users into adopting forum discussions about best practice that aren't even formally agreed upon is wrong and breaks a guideline in and of itself.

    This promulgates an elitist attitude that unless you're a savvy enough Discoger who watches every forum discussion of the same thirty people about hoped for changes then you're at risk of votes such as yours with no clear indication of why or how I am supposed to know what you're talking about let alone find the reference you're voting on.

    As someone interested in database integrity I only edit and submit to the highest standard I am aware of. I also only vote on others subs with the same standard. So I know your vote was wrong. And the attitude behind it is what really aggravates.

    My arguments for those thinking about the capitalization tangent this thread went on are still about interpretation of the guidelines as written, not shitty editing.

    Calling the edits a mess are also just further insult, and for what? I used the guidelines and forum decisions I was aware of to edit, the sub in its original form lacked the cover in its entirety and all the credits contained therein, I added pics to show my runouts even but hey! What a mess! I assume what you're referring to is adding a second line for the B-Side runout so that there is a seperate Variant 1 for the A and B side and the same for Variant 2? And if you're going to talk about the capitalization you capitalized yours randomly following no consensus or standard, example the A-side I didn't touch of yours still reads "CC in a Box".

    And if you're voting on me not entering the variants as discussed in the thread I've been directed to tell me please, why do you not follow the [logo] format for transcribing runout information as decided in the same threads? So you transcribe as you see fit despite forum agreement, you capitalize following no strategy and you don't bother adding pics to rare vinyl you're entering runout information for that almost no one will ever have to check if you entered correctly. Which I'm still wondering if you did?
  • JoshPeer 2 months ago

    OLDFRIENDSFORSALE
    Matrix / Runout (Side A, runout etched [boxed], variant 1): -D5A - [CC] - 20
    Matrix / Runout (Side B, runout etched [boxed], variant 2): D5B-[CC] 20
    Matrix / Runout (Side A, runout etched [boxed], variant 2): III -D5A-[CC]- 20
    Matrix / Runout (Side B, runout etched [boxed], variant 2): D5B-[CC] 20


    I would say that ignoring any capitalization arguments, etched being an adjective to the noun that is runout it should go:
    Matrix / Runout (Side A, etched runout, variant 2): III -D5A-[CC Boxed]- 20

    But do as you all please on this one, maybe our friendly user blackbookpress can verify he actually doesn't have those vertical marks on his. Might not even be a variant then.

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