• Loanesloan 8 months ago

    Loanesloan edited 8 months ago
    Hi there!

    We have tens of thousands releases which have a price code on them, for instance letters like





    Ⓩ and some more

    And we also have price codes that are numbers in circles, like




    or we have mixed prices codes, like WE 4⑤1 or others
    Example: Jacques Dutronc - C'est Pas Du Bronze

    Now, when updating this South-Africain release: Lloyd Ross - Vyfster (i corrected a lot of data although i was only in there for a Label correction in the first place),
    hmvh informed me that the circled 14 on the rear sleeve, that i entered as Other in the baoi section, was actually a Price code.
    So i used the Price code field and entered the number as ⑭.

    But then i got comments again, asking me to use 14 (without a circle) instead.
    I was wondering why and got answers like
    " we also don't enter LC with a circle or GEMA in a box" and that "⑭ is useless in a BaOI field"

    I then asked him to open a thread in order to discuss the matter, but got only invited 2 days after it started. there has been no reaction to my comment since.

    The thread has a tendentious title, and other users have been mocking around and giving off-topic comments.

    Therefore, i'm opening this new thread, so that this can be discussed properly, as a negative decision would affect at least 20000 to 30000 releases listed here on Discogs that have circled Price codes in baoi.

    Just an example for a circled Ⓐ:
    https://www.discogs.com/search/?format=&track=&barcode=%E2%92%B6&genre=&anv=&catno=&year=&contributor=&advanced=1&style=&matrix=&title=&country=&artist=&label=&credit=&submitter=&type=release

    1263 Releases listed - all incorrect? All NmiC?

    In contrary to what above user stated, entering circled Price codes with the available Unicode sign is not useless at all, because it is searchable on Discogs, as all other circled Price codes are.
    Any user can see these signs - no need to download specific fonts.
    It is more accurate than to just enter the Digits - the signs are availbale, so why not use them, as they can Point out differences between Releases and might help us, via the search function, to better understand the Price codes system(s) for various Labels, Distributors and countries.

    So:
    Is it OK to use such circled Unicode letters and digits when displayed that way on release?

    Thanks for your time and Input!

    Pinging sebfact, jakejef10, adrenafulva, mossinterest, mcr1, Diognes_The_Fox, lootje, berothbr, d-of, andygrayrecords, demuzieklant, polaroid666, Showbiz_Kid, kraftberg, dub_e_72, mjb, indy133, Abdelfauda, sconjin, trailoff, iamtheresurrection, and from the other thread azzurro, hafler3o, typoman2, llllllllllIIIIIIIIII

    Opinions expressed so far:

    OK to enter them as they appear (If Unicode can be used):
    Loanesloan
    Abdelfauda
    dub_e_72
    jakejef10
    mcr1
    kraftberg
    TopCats45s
    Showbiz_Kid
    sebfact
    mjb
    Charon49
    zin
    Violent-Power
    baldorr
    indy133
    mossinterest
    Silvermo
    azzurro
    ultimathulerecords
    OLDFRIENDSFORSALE (both should be allowed)
    borderes (both should be allowed)
    trailoff
    6006 (both should be acceptable)
    Coincidence_vs_Fate

    Wouldn't be bothered if entered that way:
    andygrayrecords

    Only for circled letters:
    demuzieklant

    Not clearly expressed themselves clearly in one way or another:
    Diognes_The_Fox (but tending towards accepting a double entry, as we do it for barcodes)

    Not OK, only enter the number or the letter and make a description instead:
    Myriad
    hafler3o
    scenescof
    andrenafulva
    blumley
    Opdiner
    loukash (but doesn't mind the "enter both variants" approach)
    nfnshdbzznzz
    velove
    steve.fletcher
    typoman2
    _jules

    Edit (09/11/18, 15h40): Voting list established for comments expressed so far.
    Edit (10/11/18, 10h30): updated votes
    Edit (10/11/18, 20h25): updated
    Edit (12/11/18, 22h00): updated
    [all CET
  • Abdelfauda 8 months ago

    Loanesloan
    In contrary to what above user stated, entering circled Price codes with the available Unicode sign is not useless at all, because it is searchable on Discogs, as all other circled Price codes are.


    Loanesloan
    Is it OK to use such circled Unicode letters and digits when displayed that way on release?


    Imho yes, if the search function is not inhibited, which would have been the main reason for rejecting this.
    the Unicode circled letter characters even appear properly on Windows XP, so this should not be a criterion either.
    basically we should try to illustrate everything as close as it gets to what is shown on the release.
    (I'd also be in favour of using Ⅰ, Ⅱ, Ⅲ exclusively for runout descriptions (Sonopress, Teldec), certainly nowhere else), but that's off-topic)
    +1 for using Ⓝ, Ⓨ and all other related Unicode characters where applicable.
  • Myriad 8 months ago

    The price code itself is A or 14. The circle placed around it is not part of the code itself and doesn’t need to be represented in BaOI.

    It will be evident when images are uploaded that it’s in a circle, or else describe in the BaOI description:

    Price Code (Circled): 14

    Similarly, we don’t enter that long round oval that label codes are written in, we don’t write bunch of random lines to represent a barcode, and we don’t allow separators or large blank spaces in matrix fields. You should be able to look at a release and interpret the actual usable data from the presentation and stylistic choices of the artwork.
  • andygrayrecords 8 months ago

    I would normally add it as A or 14, but if someone changed it, it wouldn't bother me.
  • Loanesloan 8 months ago

    Loanesloan edited 8 months ago
    Myriad
    It will be evident when images are uploaded that it’s in a circle, or else describe in the BaOI description:

    Price Code (Circled): 14


    Sorry Myriad but that doesn't make any sense.

    Why would it be better to have a description (Circled) in the description field then to have the circled number in the main field?
    The latter is searchable, the former is not!

    and:
    what about codes like these:
    4⑤1

    Do we assume that this is just a designers choice or could there be some meaning behind it?

    And please, again, please stay on topic: This is not about how to enter label codes or barcodes...
    Otherwise, you could also argue why we use ANVs for artists because the artist still is the same - that's irrelevant.
  • Loanesloan 8 months ago

    i missed some pings due to typos:
    andrenafulva, demuzieklant, polaroid666
  • hafler3o 8 months ago

    Myriad
    The price code itself is A or 14. The circle placed around it is not part of the code itself and doesn’t need to be represented in BaOI.

    It will be evident when images are uploaded that it’s in a circle, or else describe in the BaOI description:

    Price Code (Circled): 14

    Similarly, we don’t enter that long round oval that label codes are written in, we don’t write bunch of random lines to represent a barcode, and we don’t allow separators or large blank spaces in matrix fields. You should be able to look at a release and interpret the actual usable data from the presentation and stylistic choices of the artwork.


    basically this. nothing more.
  • Loanesloan 8 months ago

    hafler3o
    basically this. nothing more.


    Why only repeat arguments that are off-topic or that doesn't make sense instead of reacting to my comment above?
    What has a label code to do with this?
    And why would it be any more accurate to have a description instead of the sign?
    I don't get this, please explain...
  • mjb 8 months ago

    Loanesloan
    The latter is searchable, the former is not!

    Depends on what you are searching for, right? I would search for 14 and would be disappointed if it didn't show up due to being entered as ⑭.
  • dub_e_72 8 months ago

    if searchable, why not !
  • dub_e_72 8 months ago

    mjb
    I would search for 14 and would be disappointed if it didn't show up due to being entered as ⑭.

    agree !
  • Loanesloan 8 months ago

    mjb
    Depends on what you are searching for, right?


    No what i meant is that "In a circle" in the baoi description field is not searchable, so if i wanted to look out for all Releases that have circled numbers, it wouldn't be possible.
  • scenescof 8 months ago

    Loanesloan

    What has a label code to do with this?
    And why would it be any more accurate to have a description instead of the sign?
    I don't get this, please explain...


    The analogy makes sense to me and if I was using my phone to search i’d Be looking for 14, not a character that I couldn’t reproduce
  • demuzieklant 8 months ago

    Loanesloan
    Is it OK to use such circled Unicode letters and digits when displayed that way on release?


    Circled Unicode letters are already common use for price codes. I'm not in favour of using circled double digit price codes because those are difficult to decypher, I prefer to put "circled" or "boxed" in the description.
  • Loanesloan 8 months ago

    Most of all, this is purely theoretical, because:

    In order to search for it in the Advanced Search formula, you have to enter the code in the "Barcode" section to get a proper result.

    mjb
    I would search for 14

    and
    dub_e_72
    agree !

    and
    scenescof
    I was using my phone to search i’d Be looking for 14, not a character that I couldn’t reproduce


    Just try to do such a search for "14" and see the result that you'd get:
    https://www.discogs.com/search/?type=all&barcode=14&advanced=1&layout=med
    25,026 Releases

    and only a very very small percentage of those are Price codes, the rest of of it are just Barcodes that have nothing to do with it
    Who would be interested in a search like that?

    On the other hand, i'd be interested in getting these:
    https://www.discogs.com/search/?type=all&title=&artist=&label=&track=&catno=&barcode=%E2%91%AD&anv=&format=&credit=&genre=&style=&country=&year=&submitter=&contributor=&matrix=&advanced=1
    (12 Releases)

    or why not try the same thing for an A versus an Ⓐ:
    https://www.discogs.com/search/?type=all&title=&artist=&label=&track=&catno=&barcode=A&anv=&format=&credit=&genre=&style=&country=&year=&submitter=&contributor=&matrix=&advanced=1

    1,217,966 for a search with "A" (and only a fery small percentage actually being Price codes) against:

    https://www.discogs.com/search/?type=all&title=&artist=&label=&track=&catno=&barcode=%E2%92%B6&anv=&format=&credit=&genre=&style=&country=&year=&submitter=&contributor=&matrix=&advanced=1

    which shows 1480 Releases, practically ALL showing a Price code and not anything else that contains an "A"
  • andrenafulva 8 months ago

    Myriad
    The price code itself is A or 14. The circle placed around it is not part of the code itself and doesn’t need to be represented in BaOI.

    It will be evident when images are uploaded that it’s in a circle, or else describe in the BaOI description:

    Price Code (Circled): 14

    Exactly this. Enter the code in BaOI; and enter the fact that this code appears in a circle, if you must, in the description field there.
  • Abdelfauda 8 months ago

    Abdelfauda edited 8 months ago
    we say 'identifier': as pointed out by Loanesloan Ⓩ or Ⓐ are the much more intelligent option to use when it comes to 'identify' releases using Advanced Search:

    A is a very lousy identifier, Ⓐ is way more precise, isn't it?
    same goes for numbers
    '14' is another greatly useless identifier, ⑭ isn't

    functionality for working in the db counts.

    Edit: typo
  • jakejef10 8 months ago

    As long as searchable... yes. The circle is a more accurate representation
  • mcr1 8 months ago

    Throwing this in -
    At present we have barcodes in two different versions. Essentially as seen or a string of numbers.
    Perhaps if the guidelines allowed price codes to be entered both in text or as seen (as required) may be an answer.
    Of course not all "as seens" are possible, but in these cases used as exampled it would work. There would have to be a few parameters, with explanatory text, to the guidelines if that came about.

    Essentially, I'm happy for both versions to be acceptable, as they seem to have been up till now.

    Just out of interest, are many of the subs with circled price codes marked as NmiC at present?

    Edit, ()s
  • Showbiz_Kid 8 months ago

    I can't speak to EU price codes, but I can say that on the great majority of US releases with circled digits (like those of ABC Records in the 1970s), the circled Unicode value, e.g. ⑭, is pretty much standard. "14 (circled)" just craps up the database by inviting users to add characters to runout strings which are not actually found on the release itself.
  • blumley 8 months ago

    andrenafulva
    Exactly this. Enter the code in BaOI; and enter the fact that this code appears in a circle, if you must, in the description field there.


    +1
  • Myriad 8 months ago

    Abdelfauda
    A is a very lousy identifier, Ⓐ is way more precise, isn't it?
    same goes for numbers
    '14' is another greatly useless identifier, ⑭ isn't

    What does “lousy identifier” even mean? They’re exactly the same identifier, it’s just placed in a fancy circle on the artwork to make its presence more prominent. The circle has no more relevance to the code than that and is not itself part of the price code.
  • kraftberg 8 months ago

    Loanesloan
    Is it OK to use such circled Unicode letters and digits when displayed that way on release?

    I have also recently entered these codes with description and have not thought about it, but where I see now that it is searchable, it makes sense to use these Unicodes.
  • TopCats45s 8 months ago

    Unicode characters are acceptable elsewhere in the BAOI section (runouts), why an exception for price code? IMHO, either way would be good - personal preference.
  • Showbiz_Kid 8 months ago

    TopCats45s
    Unicode characters are acceptable elsewhere in the BAOI section (runouts), why an exception for price code?

    Excellent point.

    TopCats45s
    personal preference.

    Please don't use profanity here XD
  • andygrayrecords 8 months ago

    TopCats45s
    Unicode characters are acceptable elsewhere in the BAOI section (runouts)

    Not always.
    Nik has said not to use the florin, https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/234023#2873277
    And the runout thread says to only use easily reproducible unicode characters - as it happens if you happen to know them, they're all easily reproducible :)

    From a readability perspective, I find A much easier to read than Ⓐ.
  • trailoff 8 months ago

    Loanesloan
    Is it OK to use such circled Unicode letters and digits when displayed that way on release?

    It's not against the current RSG §5.2.g.

    "Price Code is an identifier assigned to determine the price of an audio carrier. Price codes can appear in various kinds, e.g. two letters and three digits (BA100, PM 500), circled letters (Ⓐ or Ⓦ), as "series" (Serie Azul, Série Artistique), 1 or 2 letters (M, AC), 2 or more digits, often after a dash (-213, 0812), etc."

    I'm not really knowledgeable about European price codes, but is there a reason that they are so often circled?
  • Opdiner 8 months ago

    I'm not fussed either way but lean strongly towards putting the graphic device used to separate and highlight the actual price code (the A) in the description. After all the field is called Price Code and the A is the code, the circle part is not.

    Re the run-outs, the circled numbers etc we use there are actually part of the run-out string. that's why we enter them as they appear. The circle around the price code is not integral to the actual code, it's a display decision by the record company.
  • Opdiner 8 months ago

    trailoff
    I'm not really knowledgeable about European price codes, but is there a reason that they are so often circled


    It was just to highlight the price code itself, much in the way Australasian price codes used to appear in a box (which we never enter). Same with the later two letter, three number codes in Europe.

    It was a simple display decision by the record companies.
  • trailoff 8 months ago

    Opdiner
    It was just to highlight the price code itself

    Thanks
  • loukash 8 months ago

    Myriad
    The price code itself is A or 14. The circle placed around it is not part of the code itself and doesn’t need to be represented in BaOI.

    This.
  • azzurro 8 months ago

    Sorry to Loanesloan for jumping the gun too quickly on the other post. It looked like just a singular case where it was a more artistic decision, or to draw more attention to it, to put the price code in a circle.

    Loanesloan
    and:
    what about codes like these:
    4⑤1


    Do you have exmaples where the price code appears as such? In that case, the circle might mean something indeed.
  • hafler3o 8 months ago

    Loanesloan
    ... Why only repeat arguments that are off-topic or that doesn't make sense instead of reacting to my comment above?
    What has a label code to do with this?
    ...


    1) I am agreeing with someone else's take.
    2) because I agree with this persons's take, I'm 'off topic' (codes and surrounds?)
    3) you don't get to decide my opinion.
    4) where's the evidence the circle is an integral part of the code? The same number in a pentagon? Labelcodes in/out of cartouches are different labels?
    5) florin was nixed ages ago by nik. It's not needed.
    6) keep things simple, I don't see any numbers in circles/triangles/hexagons etc on my keyboard and don't expect others to have to have this 'facility'.

    So instead of making a 'i got funky symbols' presentation, provide evidence of a need for the surrounds otherwise it's just a straightforward preference thing (again), which allows me to pick my personal preference and pick my quotes I agree with. Or is all this too off-topic?
  • hafler3o 8 months ago

    until new facts arise

    loukash
    MyriadThe price code itself is A or 14. The circle placed around it is not part of the code itself and doesn’t need to be represented in BaOI.

    This.
  • nfnshdbzznzz 8 months ago

    trailoff
    Price Code is an identifier assigned to determine the price of an audio carrier. Price codes can appear in various kinds, e.g. two letters and three digits (BA100, PM 500), circled letters (Ⓐ or Ⓦ), as "series" (Serie Azul, Série Artistique), 1 or 2 letters (M, AC), 2 or more digits, often after a dash (-213, 0812), etc."


    maybe a note should be added to the RSG that (Ⓐ or Ⓦ) should be denoted in baois as simply A or W, because you will get people saying, "well, the guidelines mention this, so what's wrong with it?"
  • sebfact 8 months ago

    With circles - as on, especially when searchable.

    People are yelling "AS-ON" for every nonsense but now want to tell us not to do so?
    No wonder people get scared away from this self-opinionated rubbish called Discogs Forums.
  • mjb 8 months ago

    TopCats45s
    IMHO, either way would be good - personal preference.

    I agree, it's fine either way. I don't think we should force non-technical users to figure out how to enter obscure characters. As long as the information is conveyed that it's 14, that's the most important part. If they also want to say it is circled, then great. If they are savvy enough to use the Unicode character, all right.

    The downside of that of course is that when someone enters it one way, do we negatively vote someone else for changing it to the other way? *eyes _jules warily*

    Anyway it's not like 14 in a circle is not a circled 14; that particular character in Unicode has no weird semantics like some characters do. Unicode also has some properties in a database (not implemented on Discogs) which makes that character have a numeric value of 14 and a "decomposition" of a circle followed by 1 followed by 4, so in theory Discogs could be adding those to the search index so we can search for 14 and get the expected result.
  • mcr1 8 months ago

    A question to those around on the site a lot longer than I have.
    When the barcode protocol was discussed in the forums in the early days was there ever a discussion as to how we enter it?
    Were there groups who supported strings or scanned?
    If so I can guess that "both" were acceptable but should be entered separately with the explanation in text following the numbers.
    Here we could have:
    Price Code: A (standard text)
    Price Code: Ⓐ (sleeve text)
  • Charon49 8 months ago

    In my opinion when should use unicode symbols when reasonable and use the describtion field to describe it so both variants can be found when searching the database.

    Price Code (Latin letter A circled): Ⓐ
    Pressing Plant ID (Bass clef symbol): 𝄢
  • mcr1 8 months ago

    A case in point for symbols, I can't see that bass clef symbol, just numbers in a box.
    I know I could change settings, but I think that's how the majority would see it.
  • velove 8 months ago

    hafler3o
    until new facts arise

    loukash
    MyriadThe price code itself is A or 14. The circle placed around it is not part of the code itself and doesn’t need to be represented in BaOI.

    This.

    I'd have to agree.
  • andrenafulva 8 months ago

    trailoff
    RSG §5.2.g. "Price Code is an identifier assigned to determine the price of an audio carrier. Price codes can appear in various kinds, e.g. two letters and three digits (BA100, PM 500), circled letters (Ⓐ or Ⓦ), as "series" (Serie Azul, Série Artistique), 1 or 2 letters (M, AC), 2 or more digits, often after a dash (-213, 0812), etc."

    This guideline describes how price codes can appear on releases; not how they should be entered into BaOI. You're right that it doesn't proscribe entering circled unicode characters, but the presence of Ⓐ and Ⓦ in that guideline doesn't condone it either. It's another case of a sloppily written guideline causing problems, I'm afraid.

    Charon49
    Price Code (Latin letter A circled): Ⓐ

    In what way is that better (more useful) than
    Price Code (circled): A
    ?
  • Charon49 8 months ago

    andrenafulva
    In what way is that better (more useful) than
    Price Code (circled): A
    ?


    As already mentioned you will find in the database both: the unicode character as on release as well as the description for it.
  • loukash 8 months ago

    I just did a quick research on circled numerals.

    For example, while Swiss price codes were also usually circled (and usually on stickers, but sometimes also printed), they were in a range that's not fully available in Unicode. While there is a Unicode character , U+32BA, "Circled Number Forty Five" (then usually used for budget LP reissues, priced ca. CHF 14 to 16), there is no "Circled Number Sixty Five" yet as seen e.g. printed on https://www.discogs.com//release/3607517#images/8525293

    There is a recent proposal to enhance the circled numerals from 50 up to 199 at https://unicode.org/L2/L2016/16256-n4749-circled-numbers.pdf – but if, how and when it will be implemented is apparently still unclear.

    But then, elsewhere, there are also circled combinations of letters and numerals, you name it.
    And then there are numerals or letters in square boxes. Or boxes with rounded corners. And or and or and or…

    In other words, if not everything can be expressed in Unicode characters, then syntax consistency is the more important factor. In the long run, it simplifies and unifies the data entry.
  • steve.fletcher 8 months ago

    Personally I would add A or 14 or whatever it happens to be in BAOI with the descriptor (circled) , (boxed) in a (star) or whatever, that is clear and simple and unlikely to be misunderstood.
    Again I agree that there seems little gained by complicating the issue by adding Unicode characters that may be difficult to find especially on phones, tablets etc.
  • zin 8 months ago

    I wouldn't have a problem with adding circled letters and numbers if those options are available. As on release.
  • zin 8 months ago

    double post, pls delete
  • Violent-Power 8 months ago

    TopCats45s
    Unicode characters are acceptable elsewhere in the BAOI section (runouts), why an exception for price code? IMHO, either way would be good - personal preference.


    Yeah, I agree.

    sebfact
    People are yelling "AS-ON" for every nonsense but now want to tell us not to do so?


    This too, but I don't think we should force people to enter data in a way that might be difficult for a large part of the userbase.
  • loukash 8 months ago

    TopCats45s
    Unicode characters are acceptable elsewhere in the BAOI section (runouts)

    That's part of the problem.
    In many cases, those Unicode characters are just approximations of the verbatim symbols stamped – or even hand-etched (!) – in the runouts.

    Example:

    * You see a hand-etched up-pointing triangle in vinyl runout.

    Some contributors will use (U+25B3).
    Others will use (U+25B5).
    Some may even pick (U+25B2) or (U+25B4), or even 🔼 (U+1F53C).
    Or even (Increment, U+2206).
    Or Δ (Greek Capital Letter Delta, U+0394)

    But what if the guy actually just hand-wrote a simple "A" that just looks like a ""…?
    Some folks do write an "A" like ""!
  • baldorr 8 months ago

    mjb
    I agree, it's fine either way. I don't think we should force non-technical users to figure out how to enter obscure characters. As long as the information is conveyed that it's 14, that's the most important part. If they also want to say it is circled, then great. If they are savvy enough to use the Unicode character, all right.


    I was going to say the same thing. I personally use the unicode symbols (Ⓐ for example) but I would have no issue and wouldn’t change it if a previous submitter entered it just like “A”.

    I feel this is an area that doesn’t require strict conformity because if you take a step back both ways are perfectly clear. The only difference being the more detailed search you can get by searching for “Ⓐ” instead of “A”, but I really wonder how often someone would search by a price code. If that is the only downside then I’m okay leaving this up to personal preference.
  • Loanesloan 8 months ago

    Opdiner
    It was just to highlight the price code itself, much in the way Australasian price codes used to appear in a box (which we never enter). Same with the later two letter, three number codes in Europe.


    Sorry, but - i what you state was true, why on earth would they chose to have a part of the code circled and the other one not, as with WE 4⑤1 ?
    What you state is nothing more than an assumption imO, and if we don't allow to enter the codes the way that they appear, we'll probably never find out what they mean (if there is a meaning, that is).
  • Loanesloan 8 months ago

    andrenafulva
    Exactly this. Enter the code in BaOI; and enter the fact that this code appears in a circle, if you must, in the description field there.


    I still don't understand what would be the advantage of such a procedure, could you please explain?
  • Loanesloan 8 months ago

    blumley
    +1


    Could you please explain in a few words, why you think that it is more accurate and useful to enter the code without the circle? - Thanks
  • blumley 8 months ago

    Loanesloan
    Could you please explain in a few words, why you think that it is more accurate and useful to enter the code without the circle?


    Because the code is not the circle, it is what is contained therein.
  • Loanesloan 8 months ago

    Myriad
    What does “lousy identifier” even mean?


    It's lousy because of no use at all for the search function as i have already pointed out above, just read that comment - an A or a simple digit, be it a double digit is of no use at all for the search function as it has to be entered into the Barcode field in the Advanced Search
  • Loanesloan 8 months ago

    loukash
    This.


    Could you please explain why "This"?
    What's the advantage of entereing them without the circle?
    What's the harm when entereing them as they appear?
  • Diognes_The_Fox 8 months ago

    Who searches for price codes?
  • indy133 8 months ago

    baldorr
    I feel this is an area that doesn’t require strict conformity because if you take a step back both ways are perfectly clear. The only difference being the more detailed search you can get by searching for “Ⓐ” instead of “A”, but I really wonder how often someone would search by a price code. If that is the only downside then I’m okay leaving this up to personal preference.


    +1

    Most users also accept ℗ & © And (P) & (C) as equally correct
    Personally I try to add everything "as on release" if possible for me.
  • blumley 8 months ago

    Diognes_The_Fox
    Who searches for price codes?


    I'll confess to it. When you have several different versions with same cat# the price code can help narrow it down.
  • Diognes_The_Fox 8 months ago

    blumley
    I'll confess to it. When you have several different versions with same cat# the price code can help narrow it down.


    Ah, cool. I also partially seriously ask because we don't have price codes in the US usually.
  • Loanesloan 8 months ago

    Loanesloan edited 8 months ago
    mjb
    The downside of that of course is that when someone enters it one way, do we negatively vote someone else for changing it to the other way? *eyes _jules warily*

    and
    Violent-Power
    This too, but I don't think we should force people to enter data in a way that might be difficult for a large part of the userbase.


    Of course not. It should just be acceptable to enter them both ways - either with the appropriate sign or with a description.
    We wouldn't vote either if someone didn't use Strikethrough in runouts, would we?
  • Loanesloan 8 months ago

    Diognes_The_Fox
    Who searches for price codes?


    Those who are interested in understanding them...
    Have a look at this thread from sebfact:
    https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/706164#7409250

    Price codes on European releases can be a piece in the puzzle when trying to roughly date releases.
    The runout etchings alone don't help very much, as the big pressing plants repressed the releases quite often re-using the same masters / plates.
    Dating is especially complicated for Releases from the late 70s to early 90s.

    But when we know in which time period certain price codes were used, and if in addition we have knowledge about label variants and company name changes, we have one more piece in the puzzle.

    Once again, i'm just for allowing it to enter them as they appear, it should be an option, not made mandatory. It doesn't make any harm to the database
  • typoman2 8 months ago

    typoman2 edited 8 months ago
    I'm clearly against encouraging people using such signs.

    A – Let's look i.e. at some price codes. The name of the French price code Ⓐ isn't Ⓐ – that's just the abbreviation of "Artistique" or "Série Artistique" used on the labels. (Or "Serie Azul" in Latin-America.) The same for the circled M … "Médium" or "Série Medium".
    ⑭ just means 14 and you find the Y circled, boxed or just plain. But subbers just leave their circled numbers although it's often used in sereral different "styles" on release.

    B – People like to demonstrate a "personal style". So I could find on the profile page of a submitter throughout the use of 🞄 (until edited away) – Black Slightly Small Circle, Unicode yes, but not shown on my computer, instead of just using the "boring" middle point · which can be seen by everyone.

    C – now even 🔼 used in the runouts = Up-Pointing Small Red Triangle Emoji - instead of a △ – "Red" !!! in runouts, hell, what next??!!

    loukash
    That's part of the problem.
    In many cases, those Unicode characters are just approximations of the verbatim symbols stamped – or even hand-etched (!) – in the runouts.

    I only can back loukash's notion here. Normally all these signs are only approximations compared with the original, so they are more than debatable.

    That said it all can go too far. Few days back somebody edited a sub changing the Ⓟ against a ℗ – or vice versa, I don't remember. That's becoming ridiculous … so I ignored it. What an improvement. I try not to waste my time any longer here with such crap.

    Edit: details added and typo / missing word added
  • Diognes_The_Fox 8 months ago

    typoman2
    but not shown on my computer,


    Same
  • andrenafulva 8 months ago

    A propos the 'it shows how it looks on the release' argument; we don't show how a title looks on the release when it doesn't follow Discogs' capitalisation rules, and I see no greater argument for using Unicode to display the circle around the code in this case.
  • Loanesloan 8 months ago

    I've edited the initial post in order to give an overview about the comments / votings expressed so far, please leave me a note if i understood something wrong or if you change your mind ;)
  • Loanesloan 8 months ago

    typoman2
    That said it all can too far. Few days back somebody edited a sub changing the Ⓟ against a ℗ – or vice versa, I don't remember. That's becoming ridiculous


    Agreed, that IS ridiculous...
  • typoman2 8 months ago

    Resumee: for me that's a case for RSG §1.9.3 – mimicking, no more. Leaving the path of the bare data.
  • Loanesloan 8 months ago

    andrenafulva
    A propos the 'it shows how it looks on the release' argument; we don't show how a title looks on the release when it doesn't follow Discogs' capitalisation rules, and I see no greater argument for using Unicode to display the circle around the code in this case.


    Sorry, but how can this be an Argument?
    We don't have the same rules for different parts of the data.
    We don't even have the same capitalization rules for different parts of the data, FTF is not capitalized the same was that baoi descriptions are...

    If that was a valid argument, i could also argue, that we enter ANVs as they appear on release, be they misspelled or not.

    Really, the way we enter a tile on release hasn't and shouldn't have anything to do with how we enter baoi data.

    The main criterias should be:
    a) Is it useful for the database or not?
    b) Can it do any harm to the database or not?
  • Loanesloan 8 months ago

    andygrayrecords
    Nik has said not to use the florin, https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/234023#2873277


    Btw: a thread from 7 years ago...
    - Have the guidelines evolved since (Yes)
    - Has the database become more complex since (Yes)

    The reason why nik was against using the stylized f was because "Using the ƒ character is problematic as outlined by All-Day."
    And All-Day wrote "It's bad for accessibility. No one is going to search for iƒpi, it's difficult to parse if you don't even know what a ƒ is, and a screen reader will not read it as intended."

    This ruling by nik can't be in any way generalized imO - he was ONLY referring to ifpi vs. iƒpi

    Nowhere did he state that, in general, non-standard letters shouldn't be used in runout strings (or in baoi in General, for that matter).

    So that again can't be an argument on not to use them.

    And why would we allow using ⓤ or Ⓤ for United Record Pressing then?
    + many many other unicode characters that we allow / tolerate in baoi
  • mossinterest 8 months ago

    sebfact
    With circles - as on, especially when searchable.

    People are yelling "AS-ON" for every nonsense but now want to tell us not to do so?
    No wonder people get scared away from this self-opinionated rubbish called Discogs Forums.


    Stole the words right outta my keyboard. The only thing kept ringing through my conscience as I read the ongoing back and forth. If it's searchable, WTH?! What do you get when you search "A" or "14" ? I found anything but price codes.
  • mossinterest 8 months ago

    Loanesloan
    Nowhere did he state that, in general, non-standard letters shouldn't be used in runout strings


    On the contrary, nik stated any closely representing unicode may be used in the data field. Some I personally didn't agree with, and Brent approved. What is the real significance for all this rejection all of a sudden? It has nothing to do with "search ability"
  • mossinterest 8 months ago

    I started a forum thread re: an inverted omega sign used for the harp in the Utopia logo. It was the exact opposite of this thread. I was slammed, and the only one thought it was a gross misrepresentation. Just sayin'
  • Opdiner 8 months ago

    Diognes_The_Fox
    Ah, cool. I also partially seriously ask because we don't have price codes in the US usually


    You used to - records would often have 0798 etc on the spine. Plus companies like Capitol and UA included a price code in their cat #s so a Capitol ST was stereo, price code T, SW was stereo, price code W etc. The last letter in a UA cat # was a price.

    PolyGram labels used to have a price code on their releases as a cat # suffix for a decade too, from circa 1983 onwards.

    Loanesloan
    What you state is nothing more than an assumption imO


    Not an assumption at all, the display was agreed via IFPI committee as many things are. These things don't just happen, record companies work them out via industry bodies after much dreary discussion. It's hard to overstate what a bureaucracy this all is and how many bits of pointless paper are passed around to create these conventions.

    But, really, I know you are on a mission of sorts here, but it may be time to chill a little
  • typoman2 8 months ago

    Loanesloan
    Agreed, that IS ridiculous...

    Well, he even stated this was "decided" in some Forum thread without giving a link … well, I booked it under old age not remembering such idotic decision – nowadays I wouldn't even be surprised if such a decision really existed – but I didn't want to waste time searching or arguing …
  • Loanesloan 8 months ago

    hafler3o
    4) where's the evidence the circle is an integral part of the code? The same number in a pentagon? Labelcodes in/out of cartouches are different labels?


    If we follow that logic, why on earth do we enter a Label code as
    LC XXXX or even LC-XXXX or lc-XXXX ?
    LC is the acronym of Label Code - the code is made up of the digits that follow, yet we always enter it with a preceeding LC

    If that argument was valid, we should only enter XXXX into that field as well...
  • nfnshdbzznzz 8 months ago

    typoman2
    Few days back somebody edited a sub changing the Ⓟ against a ℗ – or vice versa, I don't remember. That's becoming ridiculous

    Isn't that a case of
    ℗ = universally recognized sound recording copyright symbol vs Ⓟ = P in a circle? There is a difference
  • andrenafulva 8 months ago

    Loanesloan
    The main criteria should be:
    a) Is it useful for the database or not?
    b) Can it do any harm to the database or not?

    a) No.
    b) Yes.

    Far better to use
    Price Code (circled): A
    which is searchable and shows exactly how the code appears on the release. It can also be consistently entered no matter what the code is: a circled '65' or 'JY', or a code in a square or other shape, can be entered in exactly the same way.
  • typoman2 8 months ago

    nfnshdbzznzz
    There is a difference

    Oh, really.
    "Ⓟ 1997 Universal Music" meaning then obviously only: "P in a circle 1997 Universal Music"
    Interesting. Gimme a break. Is this the Monty Python Show?.
    loukash would say maybe: Context matters™
  • _jules 8 months ago

    I find efforts trying to replicate / ape layouts a bit vain, and I believe we have a few precedents recommending not to try too hard, bass clef, florin ifpi, wide spaces in runouts, bold, italic and such like in notes etc.

    On my Mac, the price code listed at France Gall - Poupée De Cire Poupée De Son (6e Série) looks like a regular M in a circle, so far so good.
    On my iPad, it renders as a rather Metro-like white M in a blue circle, which is quite funny in an as-on-release-but-not-really-lol kind of way.

    So yeah, Price Code (On labels, circled) - M seems like a good way to capture the data without adding random display issues that may end up not being as-on-release-very-much and ticking the b) Can it do any harm to the database? box.

    I can hardly wait for the thread about Barcode - ❘❚❘❘ ❘❘❚ ❚❘❘ ❘❘❚❘ ❚❘❚❘ is it ok or?
  • andygrayrecords 8 months ago

  • Loanesloan 8 months ago

    andrenafulva
    Price Code (circled): A
    which is searchable and shows exactly how the code appears on the release


    OK, then show us an Advanced Search result for this data display please, so that we can all see how fine it works!
  • Loanesloan 8 months ago

    _jules
    ape layouts


    _jules
    I can hardly wait for the thread about Barcode - ❘❚❘❘ ❘❘❚ ❚❘❘ ❘❘❚❘ ❚❘❚❘ is it ok or?


    I hoped we could discuss this seriously, but obviously some users can't...
  • sebfact 8 months ago

    Diognes_The_Fox
    Who searches for price codes?
    I do frequently, to update my price code thingy.

    Loanesloan
    If that argument was valid, we should only enter XXXX into that field as well...
    Yup. Edit: I can't wait for that to happen and the usual suspects will certainly think of something already....

    nfnshdbzznzz
    ℗ = universally recognized sound recording copyright symbol vs Ⓟ = P in a circle?
    There still is this open thread about ℗ or Ⓟ as PAN/ANV... where though?
  • Opdiner 8 months ago

    nfnshdbzznzz
    ℗ = universally recognized sound recording copyright symbol


    It's more than that, it's defined at as such by international treaty. It has legal substance globally and requires the circle to have that substance. It's not just a P in a circle. The (P) was just a lazy attempt to replicate than.
  • Diognes_The_Fox 8 months ago

    I wonder if we can just do some aliasing in search so that circled numbers / letters will search as normal numbers/letters and let people do what suits them best.

    Might be a good workaround, rather than warping the data to work with the limitations of the site.
  • Diognes_The_Fox 8 months ago

    As a contributor, I hate circled letters/numbers and don't transcribe them as they're usually a PITA to go hunt down, copy and then paste. Given also that the number might be too high to have it's own character, I'd have to transcribe it anyways.

    OTOH, what was the significance of putting those characters in circles in the first place? Are we potentially losing any information by not transcribing them?
  • Diognes_The_Fox 8 months ago

    We could just put both sets in the BaOI:

    Ex:

    Price Code - 10 + Desc "Printed as ⑩"
  • Diognes_The_Fox 8 months ago

    sebfact
    I do frequently, to update my price code thingy.


    This is making me wish US releases had (true) price codes now. Nice work.
  • Opdiner 8 months ago

    Diognes_The_Fox
    OTOH, what was the significance of putting those characters in circles in the first place?


    Design and separation - to make them obvious and easy to find. Nothing else.
  • mcr1 8 months ago

    Diognes_The_Fox
    We could just put both sets in the BaOI:


    Or two lines in the barcode style as I suggested

    mcr1
    Perhaps if the guidelines allowed price codes to be entered both in text or as seen
  • Diognes_The_Fox 8 months ago

    mcr1
    Or two lines in the barcode style as I suggested


    Fine by me. Works pretty well for barcodes.
  • velove 8 months ago

    nfnshdbzznzz
    Isn't that a case of
    ℗ = universally recognized sound recording copyright symbol vs Ⓟ = P in a circle? There is a difference

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_recording_copyright_symbol has the correct symbol to be used. I have that site bookmarked and use it.

    It says Not to be confused with the characters Ⓟ or ⓟ so yes there is only one symbol that is correct to use so it's ok to change them. Even better if everyone could use the correct one from the beginning.
  • mcr1 8 months ago

    Diognes_The_Fox
    Fine by me. Works pretty well for barcodes.


    Thanks. I think there's some mileage in that based on the comments so far in this thread.

    Here's one from my collection as an illustration:
    Various - Trainspotting #2 (Music From The Motion Picture Vol #2)
    2 Barcode styles.
    2 Price Codes.

    That could be 3 if one of those price codes had a circled number.

    Looks ok to add the lot to me.
  • Silvermo 8 months ago

    I think the:
    Price Code (Circled) - 10
    Option is the best/simplest to use. But im no expert on price codes

    velove
    It says Not to be confused with the characters Ⓟ or ⓟ so yes there is only one symbol that is correct to use so it's ok to change them. Even better if everyone could use the correct one from the beginning.


    We should probly use what is on release, I supose there are releases that use the wrong circled P aswell. And then I think we should use that.
  • velove 8 months ago

    Silvermo
    We should probly use what is on release,

    if you are able to tell, then probably yes. Else if you don't know, use the correct one.
  • mjb 8 months ago

    mjb edited 8 months ago
    Loanesloan
    It should just be acceptable to enter them both ways

    No I mean changing it after someone has entered it a certain way by someone else. (I mentioned _jules because he just did that on a release yesterday as part of other edits.)

    In other words, can we agree on a hierarchy of which version is better, so we would say it's OK to change it to the better version? or are they all equally acceptable and we should not be making preference edits at all?
  • Loanesloan 8 months ago

    Thanks a lot for chiming in here!

    Diognes_The_Fox
    As a contributor,


    Is this also your position as a Database Manager?

    Diognes_The_Fox
    We could just put both sets in the BaOI:

    Ex:
    Price Code - 10 + Desc "Printed as ⑩"


    Is this the way it SHOULD be done?
    If so, are the tens of thousands of releases that have the data displayed otherwise to be considered incorrect (NmiC)?

    OR:
    taking into consideration
    mcr1
    Or two lines in the barcode style as I suggested

    and
    Diognes_The_Fox
    Fine by me. Works pretty well for barcodes.


    Can we understand this as:

    - The price codes can be entered in the same way that barcodes are entered (Scanned versus Text).
    - You can enter them as they appear on release, when the appropriate Unicode sign is available, but it can also be entered without the circle, dash, seperator | (or whatever).
    - It is not mandatory to enter it both ways, but up to the editor to chose either way of representing them

    + Price codes shouldn't be changed from one display to another

    (in the same way as RSG §5.2.a. describes it:
    "Usually, the human readable code will include spaces, dashes, or other characters. These characters only serve to make the barcode easier to read, they are not necessary for computers to parse. Ultimately, the barcode can be entered both ways on the same release, please do not delete one version in favor of the other. When entering as-on-release text barcodes, please add all characters present."

    We would just have to exchange the word "Barcode" with "Price code" and add "Circles" to it.

    If agreed upon, could you change the acording guideline accordingly, so that we can get a clear advice implemented in the gl on how to enter these?
  • mcr1 8 months ago

    mjb
    equally acceptable


    +1

    But obviously not on the same line, 2 entries. (With explanatory text)

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