• bertielego over 2 years ago

    In the release country drop down menu, one can find the following two options to choose from:

    UK, Europe & US
    USA & Europe

    And every so often, someone replaces the former by the latter, stating that "UK is part of Europe", e.g. here:
    https://www.discogs.com/release/7540264-Hunting-High-And-Low/history?utm_campaign=release-update&utm_medium=pm&utm_source=relationship#latest

    If the UK is part of Europe, then having made these two apparently redundant tag options?
  • Opdiner over 2 years ago

    Well, Nik has said clearly that UK & Europe is only to be used when there are two standalone distributions for UK and continental Europe and never otherwise so I guess that applies here.
  • LolH over 2 years ago

    Yes, the U.K. is part of Europe, and, barring some fairly major geological catastrophe, it always will be part of Europe. The two regions have to be called out independently on the release to use the U.K. and Europe tag, so I assume the same would apply for the UK, Europe & US tag.
    Yes, that makes those 2 tags redundant, and Nik did state in that thread that he wished they’d never introduced U.K. & Europe.
  • djcarbines over 2 years ago

    Geographically is the only time it is. Politically and economically, never has been, never will be. Probably even culturally (although a lot is absorbed from it, but you can say the same about the Empire and New World)
    Which is why there is the division. From within the UK, mainland Europe is very often treated differently to UK releases.
    When I was researching for my own pan-European label (and prior to that, my own listening pleasure), there is a gulf of difference between UK and mainland Europe musical tastes. Many UK releases would be unpopular in Europe due to the style of music and vice-versa. Unpopular enough to make it uneconomical to release there.

    A select (very) few become hits in both. In the overwhelming majority of cases, this is either US or UK sourced recording. Rarely a mainland European recording, especially outside Eurovision season.
    Although many of my all-time favourites are those rare Euro hits (2 Unlimited, Vengaboys, Whigfield, loads of 90s trance).
    FWIW, i class Scandinavia as a separate entity from both UK and "Europe" for the same reasons laid out above. Not least because Sweden especially, when their hits cross borders, it's more Anglo-American sounding than European. Although you can always tell with the unmistakable touch of Nordic melancholy that you don't get from music anywhere else in the world

    oops. That was a long tangent!!
  • Opdiner over 2 years ago

    Opdiner edited over 2 years ago
    djcarbines
    Politically and economically, never has been, never will be.


    Really, so 1000 years of messy wars and political entanglements never happened? Sorry, but that’s just a nonsense statement. England has been intertwined with continental Europe and in large part dominated by it since the dawn of history. Scotland has spent as much time allied with the the French throne as it has in the now unravelling union with England.

    There is a ton of academic work on this but this is an easily digestible history by a (conservative) UK historian: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/29618318
  • AndyEvans2 over 2 years ago

    AndyEvans2 edited over 2 years ago
    Opdiner
    UK historian


    To be entirely clear, he's an historian who writes about the UK but is not himself originally from the UK (although based there now).
  • andrenafulva over 2 years ago

    Opdiner
    Well, Nik has said clearly that UK & Europe is only to be used when there are two standalone distributions for UK and continental Europe and never otherwise so I guess that applies here.

    Exactly this. It's a bit of an anomaly (what with the UK being part of Europe), but it gives another 'as on release' option, as the UK is sometimes separated from the rest of Europe on releases. If the release says something like 'Distributed in the UK by X and Europe by Y', you can use UK & Europe.
  • seveninch over 2 years ago

    LolH
    Nik did state in that thread that he wished they’d never introduced U.K. & Europe.


    If removing the option is ever suggested I'll support it. It's just one of those moody brexit things, it doesn't carry any meaning or add to the database in any way.
  • djcarbines over 2 years ago

    Opdiner
    Really, so 1000 years of messy wars and political entanglements never happened? Sorry, but that’s just a nonsense statement. England has been intertwined with continental Europe and in large part dominated by it since the dawn of history.


    I'm aware of more history than I let on. Among the nobility maybe, but the plebs particularly gave the country their own culture. And is what many of the internal wars have been about - change in religion, language (Norman, Latin, Germanic...), feudal system putting taxes too high leading to the Peasant's Revolt. There has always been a point (so far) where the people say enough is enough against the ruling classes and it's happened dozens of times over the centuries where change has had to be fought for, and we're usually the first in Europe to do so. Giving us such rights and freedoms few countries have and can afford to take for granted.
    Food labelling, safety, working hours / workers rights, social change, business practices, transport, education. Where we weren't the first, were usually the best instead. Examples of this being Universities, book publishing/printing, archery, gunpowder engineering (warfare generally), stock exchange, slave trade (e.g. economically viable trade at ALL stops: Cotton/raw materials from America, finished fabric/good to Africa as opposed to just doing the slave route like other empires); most relevancy: music marketing. Most diverse music scene biggest spend per capita anywhere in the world. Not to mention historically #1 in Europe for the domestic market (although I know we have slipped to #2 occasionally)

    You need to go back a thousand or 2 years even further. We absorb the Roman/Latin and French rule as examples, and adapt to it (which is probably why the identity survives so strongly to this day). Such foreign leaders cemented their power because they base themselves in England, where their power would wain more quickly if they hadn't.
    English royalty related to every current and former royal house across Europe (French, Danish, German, Prussian, Russian, Swedish). Much of Today's European royalty coming from Queen Alexandra (Victoria's daughter). Victoria marrying her German cousin. Such marriage practice in those classes already being centuries old by then, once things settled down a bit after the Plantagenets. For about 300 years, our Kings didn't even speak English! (or at least the native language at the time). What we know as English today didn't even start until about the 18th Century. Our 16th century alliance with Portugal is the oldest continuous one in the world. Quite a bit but plenty more where that came from.

    seveninch
    It's just one of those moody brexit things


    Not sure about that, it's been a contentious database issue for years before referendum talks even began, let alone being held.
  • ziggiole over 2 years ago

    You forgot Thatcher :)
  • andygrayrecords over 2 years ago

    ziggiole
    You forgot Thatcher :)


    I hope you don't kiss your mother with that mouth...
  • hatfulofelt over 2 years ago

    Anytime I can mention McCarthy I will, so be warned: http://www.postpravdamagazine.com/british-leftist-pop-bands-1980s/
  • djcarbines over 2 years ago

    ziggiole
    You forgot Thatcher :)


    Does it count as history if you remember it in your lifetime and there have been no fundamental changes since?
    (single BIG moments rather than 30 years of gradual cultural shift).
  • hatfulofelt over 2 years ago

    I edit press releases. This is in the one I currently am working on: "...[with] offices located in North America, Latin America, throughout Europe, the United Kingdom, Australia, Asia and the Middle East."
  • Opdiner over 2 years ago

    AndyEvans2
    To be entirely clear, he's an historian who writes about the UK but is not himself originally from the UK (although based there now).


    Agreed - does Sir Ian Kershaw count as his magnificent recent two parter occupies much the same ground. Indeed, Finian O’Toole’s recent Heroic Failure argues, often hilariously, that Brexit demands a wilful and myopic rewriting of history.
  • AndyEvans2 over 2 years ago

    Opdiner
    Agreed - does Sir Ian Kershaw count as his magnificent recent two parter occupies much the same ground. Indeed, Finian O’Toole’s recent Heroic Failure argues, often hilariously, that Brexit demands a wilful and myopic rewriting of history.


    I'm not familiar with them - I was only aware of Simms by a fluke. I admit, from a cursory glance at them it doesn't look like they're my kind of read.
  • Opdiner over 2 years ago

    AndyEvans2
    I admit, from a cursory glance at them it doesn't look like they're my kind of read.


    O’Toole is a really easy read and simply fantastic, but, yes, European and Asian history occupies equal time in my reading with music books.
  • solarbloom over 2 years ago

    hatfulofelt
    I edit press releases. This is in the one I currently am working on: "...[with] offices located in North America, Latin America, throughout Europe, the United Kingdom, Australia, Asia and the Middle East."


    Yep^^^

    The UK is only a part of Europe (for the time being, anyways) with regards to the EU bureaucracy...Europe is a continental land mass with no contiguous terrestrial connection to the British Isles....
  • tam89rds over 2 years ago

    These are times when Brit patriots need lists of where their island was "first" and "best", those scary times of stocking up food and medicines before the big brexit crash... when UK politics look like a giant mess and the country heading for the edge of the cliff...
    Some find reassurances where they can.
    Users from other countries do not feel that urge to make lists of "first" and "best" for their own nations, thankfully.

    May you find soothing for your anxieties.
  • AndyEvans2 over 2 years ago

    tam89rds
    These are times when Brit patriots need lists of where their island was "first" and "best", those scary times of stocking up food and medicines before the big brexit crash... when UK politics look like a giant mess and the country heading for the edge of the cliff...
    Some find reassurances where they can.
    Users from other countries do not feel that urge to make lists of "first" and "best" for their own nations, thankfully.

    May you find soothing for your anxieties.


    We're really not anxious at all. The media just makes it look that way. But thanks for your concern.
  • tam89rds over 2 years ago

    AndyEvans2
    not anxious at all


    Good to hear. Fun to witness the chest-thumping patriotism though.
  • ziggiole over 2 years ago

    You forgot Thatcher :)
    solarbloom
    The UK is only a part of Europe (for the time being, anyways) with regards to the EU bureaucracy...Europe is a continental land mass with no contiguous terrestrial connection to the British Isles....


    Super. Then we will no longer see England in the European championships.
  • AndyEvans2 over 2 years ago

    AndyEvans2 edited over 2 years ago
    tam89rds
    Fun to witness the chest-thumping patriotism though.


    I haven't seen so much of that. Most of the noise has been from people who would definitely hesitate to describe themselves as patriotic begging other countries that they prefer to save them from Brexit.
  • devotionalie over 2 years ago

    Does this thread belong to the database forum?
  • LolH over 2 years ago

    devotionalie
    Does this thread belong to the database forum?

    It did when it started :-)
  • tam89rds over 2 years ago

    solarbloom
    The UK is only a part of Europe (for the time being, anyways) with regards to the EU bureaucracy...Europe is a continental land mass with no contiguous terr


    Islands are not geographically part of continents? Australia does not belong to Oceania? Japan does not belong to Asia? Cuba does not belong to Americas?

    Sounds like good old chest-thumping blind patriotism, or?
  • LolH over 2 years ago

    solarbloom
    The UK is only a part of Europe (for the time being, anyways) with regards to the EU bureaucracy...Europe is a continental land mass with no contiguous terrestrial connection to the British Isles....

    Europe and the EU are 2 different things. This was even pointed out by nik in his statement:

    If a release is distributed in Europe (can include the UK), it is a European release. (NOTE this is different from the EU)
  • djcarbines over 2 years ago

    tam89rds
    when UK politics look like a giant mess and the country heading for the edge of the cliff...


    To echo AndyEvans, I don't think we'll notice a major difference overnight if we leave. We are simply transitioning from one trading agreement to another. Airlines and Eurotunnel have confirmed there will be no delays caused by the change in EU status. It is, afterall, no different from going between France and Switzerland do now.

    Going back to main point of music marketing, when researching music from Europe to release in UK, there was a lot of music, but very little that would be viable in the UK, even at international music industry events. Major labels made use of the EU membership for easy pressing relationships and for the international licensing, releases too (for recordings / artists that had already proven themselves). "Made In EU" can and does include UK pressings. Sometimes instead of Made In UK, sometimes as well as, for example where the pressing ring has the credit and sleeve / booklet is different.

    tam89rds
    Islands are not geographically part of continents? Australia does not belong to Oceania? Japan does not belong to Asia? Cuba does not belong to Americas?

    Sounds like good old chest-thumping blind patriotism, or?


    Geographically yes. But we aren't talking geographically, we're talking about man-made music markets. Which have major cultural and economic differences from island to island, or even across land borders. I wouldn't call reggae (North/South) American because it's so strongly associated with a single island and forms part of the island's cultural identity, different to other close-by islands and the rest of the mainland continent. I don't even need to mention the name for you to know which island!! I'm sure there are plenty of other examples where users know relationships between regions and music better than I do if it's their specialist interest. Sometimes even possible to identify a specific London borough or northern town from the music.

    tam89rds
    other countries do not feel that urge to make lists of "first" and "best" for their own nations

    On the other hand, bit hard make a list of one or zero items ;-)
  • mrformic over 2 years ago

    The UK could be part of Europe, but they don't want to.
    Or they want to. Or not, but maybe yes.
    They think about it. Carefully.
    It could be a Yes to the No, or a no to the yes.
    If you read the news daily, its a running gag.
    They will speak about it, Wednesday. Maybe later.
  • rugogs over 2 years ago

    mrformic
    The UK could be part of Europe, but England an Wales don't want to.


    corrected. ;-)
  • LolH over 2 years ago

    mrformic
    The UK could be part of the EU

    Actually :-)
  • tam89rds over 2 years ago

    tam89rds edited over 2 years ago
    djcarbines
    no different from going between France and Switzerland do now.


    Ah but no. You obviously are not familiar with EU and Switzerland relations. Switzerland has been part of the Schengen treaty like Norway and Iceland, without being part of EU. Concretely it means we can cross from France or Austria to Switzerland without any passport or ID check (free circulation of persons). UK not being part of Schengen agreement, has kept and will keep its immigration control before and after Brexit. And EU + Switzerland/Norway/Iceland will keep checking all travellers coming from the UK.
  • tam89rds over 2 years ago

    djcarbines
    But we aren't talking geographically,


    I hear you, but your compatriot above let the discussion slide into geography, mentionning isles and stuff.
  • tam89rds over 2 years ago

    djcarbines
    hard make a list of one or zero items ;-)


    Owww I can give it a try.
    The US invented rock.

    No?
    What do the Chinese list for China?

    French got the camenbert and champagne thinggies of which I am being told her Royal Majesty's subjects (is it how you call yourselves, after all these rebellions you mentioned) are avid consumers.
    Oh well but maybe I should not believe everything I am being told ;)
  • panoptikon over 2 years ago

    tam89rds
    maybe I should not believe everything I am being told ;)


    Always a good idea.
  • AndyEvans2 over 2 years ago

    AndyEvans2 edited over 2 years ago
    Deleted. I'm not rising to the bait!
  • AndyEvans2 over 2 years ago

    tam89rds
    French got the camenbert and champagne


    Honestly, this is a really complex issue (as I know you understand) and it's likely to generate more heat than light here as no-one will have time, inclination or capacity to argue it out here when we'll all quickly resort to throwaway lines and I don't think most people outside the UK care that much. We would be better here continuing to argue over the guidelines rather than get into this.
  • tam89rds over 2 years ago

    AndyEvans2
    really complex issue (as I know you understand) and it's likely to generate more heat than light here as no-one will have time


    I probably have an ingrown knack for complex issues, and I do have currently too much time on hand, with the leg in a fresh bright blue plaster.... but it suddenly dawns on me it may not be the case for other users (I hope you guys did not break bones recently), and therefore, would like to offer my sincerest apologies to all.
    So selfish me. :)
  • djcarbines over 2 years ago

    djcarbines edited over 2 years ago
    tam89rds
    Owww I can give it a try.
    The US invented rock.

    No?
    What do the Chinese list for China?

    French got the camenbert and champagne thinggies of which I am being told her Royal Majesty's subjects (is it how you call yourselves, after all these rebellions you mentioned) are avid consumers.


    :-) There aren't many that can, considering the number of present and former countries! Even fewer can put a valid claim across pretty much everything you can think of. As discussed in other threads about the missing data and reasons why, China is pretty much it's own world. Even if we do nick their tea and porcelain, improve on it and call it our own. Similarly Arabian/Persian glass. Even if it did take 700 odd years to improve it while we caught up! And there are some rather nice French and Italian glass.

    Is it entirely fair to mention a regionally protected product as a comparison? EU countries can only call sparkling wine Champagne if it comes from Champagne, France. As a weird twist, we could call English Sparkling Wine "Champagne" again instead if we leave.

    England make more varieties of cheese than France anyway, many having names of the place they originate from (Red Leicester, Cheddar, Stilton, Double Gloucester and many many more). A few, like Champagne, have designated geographical protection (i.e. only allowed to labelled as such if they originate from that place, rather than using the method that creates it elsewhere).
    The Switzerland example was more a practical demonstration of customs practices with HGVs etc. to see how much paperwork is required and how long it takes importing from Non-EU to EU and in the show how it could be. Nothing to do with people-only (therefore nor Schengen). I appreciate it's not going to be exactly the same as a UK outside the EU to EU countries. Although probably the nearest in-practice land border to be able to do so for the demonstration purposes though.

    tam89rds
    keep its immigration control before and after

    There hasn't been much in the way of "control" lately, which is probably a strong reason why Leave got such support. Disappointingly, many that voted for that as their main or only reason won't realise immigration control is a domestic issue and won't change because of a change in EU status.
  • AndyEvans2 over 2 years ago

    djcarbines
    immigration control is a domestic issue and won't change because of a change in EU status.


    I'm not supporting any position with this comment but that's entirely untrue. The UK could, if it left the EU, have zero immigration if it chose. It could not do that while still in the EU (or in any relationship with the EU which respects the four pillars).
  • avalon67 over 2 years ago

    tam89rds
    French got the camenbert and champagne


    There was a blind tasting recently on a BBC programme and English sparkling wine was voted by a panel including French, Spanish, Italian and English consumers as the favourite over Champagne, Cava and Prosecco :-)
    But give me a Beaujolais any day.
  • AndyEvans2 over 2 years ago

    tam89rds
    with the leg in a fresh bright blue plaster....


    As long as it is not bright blue with yellow stars :-)

    All the best for a speedy recovery!
  • Opdiner over 2 years ago

    AndyEvans2
    I don't think most people outside the UK care that much.


    Agreed, but there seems to be a universal consensus beyond the UK's shores that the UK doesn't - aside from Indian - do food very well. I have to go to the UK every 6 months or so and have done for many years. It hasn't improved. Beer neither.

    And there may be more cheeses but nah...
  • take22 over 2 years ago

    djcarbines
    there is a gulf of difference between UK and mainland Europe musical tastes.


    kinda narrow-minded blanket statement (which is rather expected from brexshiteers), there is a gulf of difference between all European countries in musical tastes, Germany vs Italy vs France vs Poland, nothing special about the UK in that respect.
    djcarbines
    There has always been a point (so far) where the people say enough is enough against the ruling classes and it's happened dozens of times over the centuries where change has had to be fought for, and we're usually the first in Europe to do so.

    all those war a good result then? The rich no longer have all the power? No more nobility and titles? Is it now the Republic of England? UK was certainly not the first, and certainly not successful, hence why they still have a German/Greek family as heads of state (Betty & Phil) that are not democratically chosen, and the rich getting richer, and the misinformed 'plebs' paying the price

    Let me guess, you read the Daily Mail and watch Sky News right?
  • AndyEvans2 over 2 years ago

    take22
    kinda narrow-minded blanket statement (which is rather expected from brexshiteers)....



    (and from your profile), "enough about brexshit! If the majority of Brits are that thick, then fucking leave already, stop dragging it out"

    When your argument isn't winning - make up a name for your opponents and call them thick. It's grown-up politics.
  • Sal_Ami over 2 years ago

    Opdiner
    And there may be more cheeses but nah...


    Nothin' compares to a two-pound block of cheddar and a barrel of Fosters! Not even a nuclear meltdown...
  • djcarbines over 2 years ago

    take22
    djcarbines
    there is a gulf of difference between UK and mainland Europe musical tastes.

    kinda narrow-minded blanket statement (which is rather expected from brexshiteers), there is a gulf of difference between all European countries in musical tastes, Germany vs Italy vs France vs Poland, nothing special about the UK in that respect.


    From my first hand (now, not very recent) research, I beg to differ. That "Blanket statement" is the main conclusion I came to having done business internationally on away and neutral territory (not in UK), physically meeting people abroad. I'd like to hear if your first hand experience is any different and what you were looking to find out before you came to the conclusion?

    Much of the successful hits of each territory were a handful of local acts which would struggle to cross borders. In a lot of the cases, the production simply wasn't up to scratch either. Of those that were, the music generally didn't sell in the UK but did across continental Europe. The records that were hits across the most different territories were either English or American. Very few from the mainland. Yes there are differences across all borders, but from this research (to have reciprocal license agreements with each territory UK to Europe: EU and Non-EU), there are bigger [musical] preference differences and markets between UK and Europe than there are between the European nations. Australia for example, at the time had the strange chart phenomenon of local acts being 6 months ahead (of them becoming international hits) and the rest a combination of US and UK hits from 6 months ago (Before the research, I expected closer time frames than that).

    take22
    all those war a good result then? The rich no longer have all the power? No more nobility and titles? Is it now the Republic of England?

    Firstly, I wasn't talking about the full-on military wars, but when normal people take action when the govt (or previously, King) take a step too far. And no, the rich do have less control and less dominance than previous centuries (look at how the government and land ownership was run in the 14th century and you'll see why, or further research of later eras). The point of these actions was never to depose the King / Monarchy (although it has happened of course!), remove nobility or titles. If anything, it is often the rich rather than politically powerful that change things most (while benefitting theirselves of course). The monarchy being an immovable ambassador to the empire and commonwealth. Still having such a position keeps us successful for the biggest celebtrities in the world representing Brand GB (for better or worse for their personality/actions), is itself a luxury for the country. And their indeposable. Mill owners building houses yards from the mill and toilets on the working floor in the 18th/19th century when most houses had no toilet at all, prevents workers wasting time. School for the mill-working children among the more benevolent owners, and then in 1901 no longer using children and the first equal pay for women in some mills (who did most of the work there anyway). This was basically the first shiftwork and the first to work the "day" job outside daylight hours. Peasants fed up of getting ripped off caused first food laws in the 13th century (amount of food by weight in handmade pots), many followed like not putting dangerous material in, labelling ingredients etc.
    Rather than being derogatory, "Plebs" is a historically accurate term for people outside the ruling classes. The 21st century has changed this meaning somewhat. On the contrary to being misinformed, they were educated and today their practices would be called self employed. Only after the Peasants Revolt were they able to earn rights of owning a share of the land they worked. The zero-rights previous state was in place in Ireland well into the 19th century and the disincentivation of long term planning for the workers by such a regime was a root cause of the potato famine.
    Railways standardised time across the country (a world first). Other world firsts: Radio demonstration (imported), electricity, tyres, tarmac, Laws of Motion, lighting, TV, almost any global sport.

    take22
    Let me guess, you read the Daily Mail and watch Sky News right?

    I actively avoid reading daily newspapers (of any kind!) and watching television.
  • andrenafulva over 2 years ago

    Sometimes I wonder how this country got into such a mess, and then I read some of the bell-endery on this thread and it all comes back to me...

    So, to get back on track, should the UK be considered part of Europe for the purposes of cataloguing audio releases on Discogs....?
  • panoptikon over 2 years ago

    andrenafulva
    to get back on track


    Good luck.
  • 0bleak over 2 years ago

    tam89rds
    Islands are not geographically part of continents? Australia does not belong to Oceania?


    Over here, Australia is generally considered its own continent while Oceania is generally considered a region.
  • cartologist over 2 years ago

    ^^^^
    There are reasons why my people left England, Scotland, Ireland (all before 1707), the United Kingdom, Germany (somewhere in Protestant western Germany back then), Poland (then Russia), Lithuania (then Russia), Latvia (then Russia) and Portugal (the Azores, to be exact).

    Anyway, if nik meant that UK & Europe usage requires that there also be separate UK and Europe releases, I think he was thinking of analog (single, EP, LP) releases, in which case all of my usage of UK & Europe as country is wrong.
    I have seen classical CD releases from Deutsche Grammophon that are clearly intended for German markets (almost no English) but everything else made in the EU was intended for the EU.

    For some reason I have no problem thinking of Ireland as EU but not The United Kingdom of England, Scotland and Northern Ireland, but that's probably just my British heritage speaking.

    Henceforth in the course of OTHER edits on CDs I will change UK & Europe to Europe.
  • djcarbines over 2 years ago

    andrenafulva
    So, to get back on track, should the UK be considered part of Europe for the purposes of cataloguing audio releases on Discogs....?


    Would anything change if we decide?
    This is at least the fourth thread on the subject. They've either had no conclusion or no action on a conclusion that was found.

    My quick answer is No, mainly due to sheer number of releases that have been treated differently in the UK to Europe.
    Just one pointer being given different catalogue number in UK and being the only country with it's own cat no on pan-European releases that I've seen. I'm sure there are examples but I've not seen any.
  • ziggiole over 2 years ago

    djcarbines
    Firstly, I wasn't talking about the full-on military wars, but when normal people take action when the govt (or previously, King) take a step too far. And no, the rich do have less control and less dominance than previous centuries (look at how the government and land ownership was run in the 14th century and you'll see why, or further research of later eras). The point of these actions was never to depose the King / Monarchy (although it has happened of course!), remove nobility or titles. If anything, it is often the rich rather than politically powerful that change things most (while benefitting theirselves of course). The monarchy being an immovable ambassador to the empire and commonwealth. Still having such a position keeps us successful for the biggest celebtrities in the world representing Brand GB (for better or worse for their personality/actions), is itself a luxury for the country. And their indeposable. Mill owners building houses yards from the mill and toilets on the working floor in the 18th/19th century when most houses had no toilet at all, prevents workers wasting time. School for the mill-working children among the more benevolent owners, and then in 1901 no longer using children and the first equal pay for women in some mills (who did most of the work there anyway). This was basically the first shiftwork and the first to work the "day" job outside daylight hours. Peasants fed up of getting ripped off caused first food laws in the 13th century (amount of food by weight in handmade pots), many followed like not putting dangerous material in, labelling ingredients etc.
    Rather than being derogatory, "Plebs" is a historically accurate term for people outside the ruling classes. The 21st century has changed this meaning somewhat. On the contrary to being misinformed, they were educated and today their practices would be called self employed. Only after the Peasants Revolt were they able to earn rights of owning a share of the land they worked. The zero-rights previous state was in place in Ireland well into the 19th century and the disincentivation of long term planning for the workers by such a regime was a root cause of the potato famine.
    Railways standardised time across the country (a world first). Other world firsts: Radio demonstration (imported), electricity, tyres, tarmac, Laws of Motion, lighting, TV, almost any global sport.


    I always appreciated the Brits sense of humour
  • Dr.SultanAszazin over 2 years ago

    cartologist
    For some reason I have no problem thinking of Ireland as EU but not The United Kingdom of England, Scotland and Northern Ireland, but that's probably just my British heritage speaking.


    Wouldn't it be the same if a Frenchman says that the French Republic consisting of Bretagne, Normandie, Bourgogne, ... isn't part of the EU? ;)

    An important thing to consider when determining the country, is to consider import tax. Import tax is one of the main reasons record companies choose not to manufacture a release in one country and distribute it over the world. (transport cost is of course another important factor). By manufacturing the releases, or part of them locally, they avoid this.

    Where there are economic borders, I think it is best to try to be as specific as possible what is included. for a Europe+UK release before the EU economic borders where lifted, I think it is always best to enter it as Europe&UK.
    Starting from the moment the UK/EU opened economic borders, I think if a release is for UK+Europe, just Europe is fine. Unless there are non-UK European versions available too.

    This is my general stance, I think a look at an MR might in some cases ask for a less general approach.
  • massenmedium over 2 years ago

    bertielego
    UK, Europe & US
    USA & Europe

    And every so often, someone replaces the former by the latter, stating that "UK is part of Europe", e.g. here:

    I seriously don't understand this debate. But removing UK because it's 'implied' seems illogical.

    Surely we need to sometimes include UK with Europe and sometimes not.

    The first does.
    The second doesn't.
  • mrformic over 2 years ago

    "Interesting" news today from the UK.
    House of commons says no to all "How to Brexit" strategies, but they definatly want to exit :)
    It's seems to be difficult to leave and stay at the same time.
    A second referendum would finnish this embaressing struggle, but a second referendum is embaressing as well.
    We all can learn something from this situation:
    Always think twice when you vote.
    Protest votes are nothing but wrong and very dangerous.
  • AndyEvans2 over 2 years ago

    mrformic
    "Interesting" news today from the UK.
    House of commons says no to all "How to Brexit" strategies, but they definatly want to exit :)
    It's seems to be difficult to leave and stay at the same time.
    A second referendum would finnish this embaressing struggle, but a second referendum is embaressing as well.
    We all can learn something from this situation:
    Always think twice when you vote.
    Protest votes are nothing but wrong and very dangerous.


    A German telling us what to do. That will help.
  • mrformic over 2 years ago

    I would say the same, if I would be from the UK.
    I don't have "my country" feelings.
  • AndyEvans2 over 2 years ago

    mrformic
    I would say the same, if I would be from the UK.
    I don't have "my country" feelings.


    But you do assume you know a lot about everyone's motivation for voting. I'm saying no more. This is a discogs forum and your comment had no place on it. If you delete your comments and find a political forum to talk on, I'll delete mine.
  • mrformic over 2 years ago

    Most of this thread is political, I don't see any reason to delete our postings.
    Talking politics is healthy and important, but I totally agree, off-topic in a database forum.
    That happened before, quadrizillions of times :)
  • avalon67 over 2 years ago

    mrformic
    A second referendum would finnish this embaressing struggle, but a second referendum is embaressing as well.
    We all can learn something from this situation:
    Always think twice when you vote.
    Protest votes are nothing but wrong and very dangerous.


    Couldn't agree more.
    No one knew the reality of the situation when they voted first time round. A second referendum would give the people of the UK the chance to vote with an informed opinion and take on board the advice given over a period and the opinions of employers who account for 60% + of UK workers, rather than the scaremonger tactics used by Farage and the false promises given by the Brexit campaign.

    AndyEvans2
    A German telling us what to do. That will help.

    Looks like an opinion to me, not telling anyone "what to do".

    My last comment.
  • AndyEvans2 over 2 years ago

    avalon67
    the scaremonger tactics used by Farage and the false promises given by the Brexit campaign.


    Plenty of those on both sides of the original referendum debate.

    avalon67
    Looks like an opinion to me


    When I'm told, "We all can learn" and that my vote was a "protest vote"; I think I'm being told.

    And my last comment to you.
  • bertielego over 2 years ago

    bertielego edited over 2 years ago
    Opdiner
    Well, Nik has said clearly that UK & Europe is only to be used when there are two standalone distributions for UK and continental Europe and never otherwise so I guess that applies here.
    Thank you for the clear answer to my question.
    If so, this should then be described in the guidelines, as it is not straightforward.

    LolH
    Nik did state in that thread that he wished they’d never introduced U.K. & Europe.
    Thank you for this insight.
    If so, tags such as "UK & Europe" and "UK, Europe & US" should then have been taken off the list.

    @ nik and Diognes_The_Fox
    I can foresee three options here:

    1.Create in the guidelines article 7.1.4 to describe when and when not to use 'brexit' tags such as "UK & Europe" and "UK, Europe & US".

    2.Delete the aforementioned 'brexit' tags from the list of options in the submission form.

    3.Delete all country combination tags such as "North America (inc Mexico)", "France & Benelux" and "UK, Europe & Israel", and update instead the submission form in such way that users could add as many release country lines as required, much like with the format field, and as suggested here: https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/789530#7838627. And then create 'brexit' guideline 7.1.4 to describe when and when not to add a "UK" line in combination with a "Europe" line.

    Looking forward to your input.

    [Edit: mistake cleaned up]
  • mrformic over 2 years ago

    bertielego
    I can foresee three options here


    Or option 4: Wait until the Brexit struggle is done with possible changes.
  • LolH over 2 years ago

    bertielego
    'brexit' tag

    Those tags have nothing to do with Brexit :-)
  • _jules over 2 years ago

    bertielego
    3.Delete all country combination tags such as "North America (inc Mexico)", "France & Benelux" and "UK, Europe & Israel", and update instead the submission form in such way that users could add as many release country lines as required, much like with the format field, and as suggested here:


    This has slightly more chances to happen than those Westminster guys voting Yes on something Brexit-related.
  • mrformic over 2 years ago

    AndyEvans2
    When I'm told, "We all can learn" and that my vote was a "protest vote"; I think I'm being told.


    I didn't say your vote was a protest vote, how could I ?
    It is a well know fact, that many votes have been protest votes and that those protest voters would vote different today (against Brexit).
    Protest voters also have helped rightwing parties around the globe a lot in the last years.
    Its dangerous.
    It can lead to political "decissions" which do not reflect the real intention of the public.
    And I said we all "can" learn, not have to.
    Its up to everyones private choice in a democracy, if one wants to learn, or not.
  • Diognes_The_Fox over 2 years ago

    what if I delete UK & Europe
  • avalon67 over 2 years ago

    Diognes_The_Fox
    what if I delete UK & Europe


    Is it a good time to ask for UK & Germany?
  • bertielego over 2 years ago

    bertielego
    @ nik and Diognes_The_Fox
    I can foresee three options here:

    1.Create in the guidelines article 7.1.4 to describe when and when not to use 'brexit' tags such as "UK & Europe" and "UK, Europe & US".

    2.Delete the aforementioned 'brexit' tags from the list of options in the submission form.

    3.Delete all country combination tags such as "North America (inc Mexico)", "France & Benelux" and "UK, Europe & Israel", and update instead the submission form in such way that users could add as many release country lines as required, much like with the format field, and as suggested here: https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/789530#7838627. And then create 'brexit' guideline 7.1.4 to describe when and when not to add a "UK" line in combination with a "Europe" line.

    Diognes_The_Fox
    what if I delete UK & Europe

    Thank you for joining the thread!

    That would certainly prevent 1/any further unnecessary discussions (deviating into politics as we just witnessed), and 2/to have to come up with a complex guideline on when and when not to use the combination of "UK" with "Europe". Similar combined tags should be then deleted too ("UK, Europe & US", UK, Europe & Israel").

    + What do you think about updating the submission form to include multiple country lines (and only single country/region tags)?
  • phallancz over 2 years ago

    Diognes_The_Fox
    what if I delete UK & Europe

    Please do, probably around 90% of the that "country" usage is incorrect, and you can also delete "UK, US & Europe"
  • andygrayrecords over 2 years ago

    phallancz
    probably around 90% of the that "country" usage is incorrect,

    This!
  • andrenafulva over 2 years ago

    Diognes_The_Fox
    what if I delete UK & Europe

    Then you'd be yet another foreigner interfering in our proud island nation's Brexity heritage... [harumph]

    ;-)

    I'm happy for that option to be removed, unless someone can provide compelling evidence that the two territories are separated that way on releases and that it's useful to distinguish a 'UK & Europe' release from a 'Europe' release. As someone pointed out earlier, some releases have a UK catalogue number (usually letters and numbers) and a European catalogue number (usually numbers only). What I don't know is if there is always in these cases one Europe-wide (minus UK) catalogue number, or whether there might be one for France, one for Germany, and so on.

    If UK & Europe is a valid distinction from Europe in terms of accurate cataloguing, I'm happy for it to stay. If it does stay, however, what would be useful would be to make clear in the guidelines, or somewhere in an easy-to-find help section, why UK & Europe is there and in what circumstances it should be used, so that people don't have to hunt for an old forum comment by nik or have back-and-forth edit wars over it.
  • hatfulofelt over 2 years ago

    avalon67
    Is it a good time to ask for UK & Germany?

    I'm curious if this would be used much (not that that even matters).

    andrenafulva
    unless someone can provide compelling evidence that the two territories are separated that way on releases and that it's useful to distinguish a 'UK & Europe' release from a 'Europe' release.

    I wouldn't see why not, honestly.
  • djcarbines over 2 years ago

    djcarbines edited over 2 years ago
    mrformic
    I don't have "my country" feelings.


    I saw interesting results of a survey recently, to the question "Are you a proud patriot?"
    1) USA 52% (By some distance #1 in the world, down from 70% pre-Trump)

    Within EU:
    1) UK 13%
    2) Germany 5%
    3) France 4%

    LolH
    Those tags have nothing to do with Brexit :-)


    Exactly this. Apologies for bringing too much politics into this thread, but it was only there to express why the UK does not see it's self part of Europe culturally and consequently from music marketing perspective.
    There are clearly British people who Identify as European, but that is going off topic into politics again.

    My arguments for having UK separate to Europe are because from my own personal experience of self-employed music marketing and as part of a larger label, even American heads of marketing campaigns from Warner have considered "Europe" to mean "Mainland Europe without UK", with a separate but parallel campaign to the European one. As well as lecturers at my music university senior in the UK music industry trade bodies talking about us (the students) future going to the big music trade events (MIDEM, ADE, SXSW etc), that anyone going to MIDEM (held in Cannes, France) where the UK is usually the most represented country both by number of companies and by number of individual delegates, saying that the UK is (quote) "The Holy Grail of Europe" and that everyone in Europe will be looking to release in the UK we are privileged to hold such power and influence over Europe's music industry just by virtue of our nationality. This is from a former long-term board of directors member of the BPI.

    Although there are clear parallels with the EU situation, it has not influenced my knowledge and experience of European music marketing, especially of those releases before the Maastrict treaty!
    It is just unfortunate that it this thread coincides so deeply with the possibility of leaving the EU. (I'm still not convinced it is going to happen at all).

    Diognes_The_Fox
    what if I delete UK & Europe

    bertielego
    Delete all country combination tags such as "North America (inc Mexico)", "France & Benelux" and "UK, Europe & Israel", and update instead the submission form in such way that users could add as many release country lines as required, much like with the format field,


    Yes please!
  • mrformic over 2 years ago

    Diognes_The_Fox
    what if I delete UK & Europe


    What happens to the items tagged as such ?
  • bertielego over 2 years ago

    mrformic
    What happens to the items tagged as such ?

    A bot could take care of replacing automatically tags, either by switching to an already existing tag, or by a renaming of the tag:
    - Releases tagged "UK & Europe" should be tagged "Europe" (already existing tag).
    - Releases tagged "UK, Europe & US" should be tagged "USA & Europe" (already existing tag).
    - Releases tagged "UK, Europe & Israel" should be tagged "Europe & Israel" (renaming of tag).
    - Releases tagged "UK, Europe & Japan" should be tagged "Europe & Japan" (renaming of tag).
  • LolH over 2 years ago

    Diognes_The_Fox
    what if I delete UK & Europe

    There are (a few) instances where the tag can legitimately be used. I admit they are fairly few and far between, in my experience, but they do occur.
  • Diognes_The_Fox over 2 years ago

    mrformic
    What happens to the items tagged as such ?


    Oh I meant the landmasses. ;)

    Seriously though, that is very likely something that will need to be addressed before I can actually seriously suggest such a thing.
  • djcarbines over 2 years ago

    bertielego
    A bot could take care of replacing automatically tags, either by switching to an already existing tag, or by a renaming of the tag:
    - Releases tagged "UK & Europe" should be tagged "Europe" (already existing tag).
    - Releases tagged "UK, Europe & US" should be tagged "USA & Europe" (already existing tag).
    - Releases tagged "UK, Europe & Israel" should be tagged "Europe & Israel" (renaming of tag).
    - Releases tagged "UK, Europe & Japan" should be tagged "Europe & Japan" (renaming of tag).


    Something against UK being identified as it's own entity?
  • andrenafulva over 2 years ago

    Diognes_The_Fox
    Oh I meant the landmasses.

    Your powers extend far beyond what I imagined...
  • Diognes_The_Fox over 2 years ago

    andrenafulva
    Your powers extend far beyond what I imagined...


    Batmanesque supervillian would very much be a logical career progression from this point.
  • bertielego over 2 years ago

    djcarbines
    Something against UK being identified as it's own entity?

    Let's recap.

    First, I proposed three options on how to cope with the confusing UK+Europe type of tags:

    bertielego
    @ nik and Diognes_The_Fox
    I can foresee three options here:

    1.Create in the guidelines article 7.1.4 to describe when and when not to use 'brexit' tags such as "UK & Europe" and "UK, Europe & US".

    2.Delete the aforementioned 'brexit' tags from the list of options in the submission form.

    3.Delete all country combination tags such as "North America (inc Mexico)", "France & Benelux" and "UK, Europe & Israel", and update instead the submission form in such way that users could add as many release country lines as required, much like with the format field, and as suggested here: https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/789530#7838627. And then create 'brexit' guideline 7.1.4 to describe when and when not to add a "UK" line in combination with a "Europe" line.


    Second, Diognes_The_Fox toyed with the idea of going for option 2:

    Diognes_The_Fox
    what if I delete UK & Europe


    Third, mrformic asked about the practical consequence of deleting such tag:

    mrformic
    What happens to the items tagged as such ?


    Fourth, provided we would go for option 2, I suggested how to automate the change:

    bertielego
    A bot could take care of replacing automatically tags, either by switching to an already existing tag, or by a renaming of the tag:
    - Releases tagged "UK & Europe" should be tagged "Europe" (already existing tag).
    - Releases tagged "UK, Europe & US" should be tagged "USA & Europe" (already existing tag).
    - Releases tagged "UK, Europe & Israel" should be tagged "Europe & Israel" (renaming of tag).
    - Releases tagged "UK, Europe & Japan" should be tagged "Europe & Japan" (renaming of tag).
  • avalon67 over 2 years ago

    hatfulofelt
    Is it a good time to ask for UK & Germany?

    I'm curious if this would be used much (not that that even matters).


    In the early 80's EFA were a distributor for dozens of UK labels, Crass, Jungle, Alternative Tentacles,Abstract are some of the more well known ones.
    Their logo and local catalogue/distribution numbers were printed on most records they were official distributors for.
    Dead Kennedys - Give Me Convenience Or Give Me Death
    Crass - Christ - The Album / Well Forked - But Not Dead
    Johnny Thunders & The Heartbreakers* - One Track Mind
    Broken Bones - Decapitated
    New Model Army - The Price

    Most of the releases I've seen that are UK & Germany (via EfA) are either marked UK or Europe, both of which are incorrect.
  • hatfulofelt over 2 years ago

    Excellent example, thanks. In the '80s and '90s (in other words, prior to Discogs) - I never knew about Label Codes and Distribution info and all the stuff that's so fun now here. I'd see them on my music, and just think WTH.
  • TwinPowerForce over 2 years ago

    avalon67
    Most of the releases I've seen that are UK & Germany (via EfA) are either marked UK or Europe, both of which are incorrect.


    Many releases with EFA references were well distributed in France too (Touch And Go, City Slang, Dischord Records, Amphetamine Reptile Records, Ex Records, Pressure Sounds, On-U Sound, Alternative Tentacles...). Don't know if via another distributor like PIAS, but I remember having seen ads in French musical magazines about some of those releases in the 90's, and some American indie bands toured in EU because their records were distributed there
  • djcarbines about 1 year ago

    Ah, to this thread, welcome back old friend.
    Just a little stat and anecdote as to why the UK is a special case worldwide and in Europe. Traditionally among the big 3 global markets, and #1 biggest spenders per capita in the world for decades according to IFPI and BPI reports from the 90s and early 2000s.
    This report https://tonedeaf.thebrag.com/which-countries-have-the-fans-who-spend-the-most-on-music/
    shows we have slipped to #2 in the streaming era in spending on recorded music. Though likely to still be #1 if you include spending on all music (i.e. live events), as we are #1 in terms of festivals in Europe by a massive margin https://www.statista.com/statistics/756238/music-festivals-eu/
    And that'd before you include our numerous world class tours, gigs and venues. Particularly events at Wembley and the O2.
    To maintain that level of spending on recorded music and shift so far to live music shows why the UK is the best country for music: biggest consumer spenders, most diverse, most entrepreneurial and creative.
    Yes, the above report concludes Germany is the new 3rd element, replacing UK, but look at the #1 hits. Strong Anglo-American influence and none of the German acts have had hits in the UK. UK are also better at exporting their music. Not quite so good as US but pretty decent.
  • rugogs about 1 year ago

    djcarbines
    none of the German acts have had hits in the UK.


    Certainly not "en masse" like it's the other way round but it's not true that there were no German #1 hits in the UK, especially not if you also count in German productions and not just natively German artists. ;-)
  • djcarbines about 1 year ago

    rugogs
    it's not true that there were no German #1 hits in the UK


    Yes it is. Both ways round. None of the German artists having German #1s have hit the UK, nor UK #1s by German acts.
    The beauty of UK catalogue numbers means the research is no longer in doubt as they are measured by ISRCs, country of origin/ownership or the recording is easy to determine.
    There are about 8 in the current UK top 100 from outside UK-US. 1 is Cyprus, 2 Sweden (both Avicii), 1 QZ (not sure!), 1 Canada and 3 German - 2 of which are by British Lewis Capaldi. The latter a long-term #1.
    That's a far cry from almost a a third of German #1s coming from UK origin.

    But then we'd have to count Sweden too in the 90's if you count productions. Swedish production was responsible for most big selling UK and US singles in 1997/1999 as an example (Backstreet Boys, Steps, Britney Spears, Roxette, Ace Of Base).

    I'd have to check, but I don't think a German act has had a UK #1 since 1984 (Nena). The closest I remember "Recently" since then being Sash!'s 5 #2 hits between 1997 and 2002.
  • rugogs about 1 year ago

    rugogs edited about 1 year ago
    Falco and Snap immediately spring to mind.
    Both post 1984.

    djcarbines
    I'd have to check, but I don't think a German act has had a UK #1 since 1984 (Nena). The closest I remember "Recently" since then being Sash!'s 5 #2 hits between 1997 and 2002.


    Here we are:
    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_deutschen_Nummer-eins-Hits_im_Ausland#Vereinigtes_K%C3%B6nigreich
  • hatfulofelt about 1 year ago

    Edelweiss - Bring Me Edelweiss hit #5 in the UK in 1989 and is Austrian. Is this relevant? Nope!
  • djcarbines about 1 year ago

    Thanks. Shamefully, I forgot about most of those despite buying all 6 from 1999-2009. I was even in negotiations to sign Cascada to the UK! [I got outbid :-( ]. From 2009, they are also the last all-German act to have a UK #1. And one of only 2 German-originating UK #1s since 2003 (The remixers didn't get credited here, and the tracks are classed as Dutch and American respectively for Official Chart /ISRC purposes). The other is part French (artist- Lilly Wood) but recording of German origin.

    It gets worse for albums, Scooter having the sole #1 week in the last 25 years and one of only 3 German acts to ever get a UK #1 album.

    In contrast, there have been 484 German #1s in English and 224 in German with nothing else even close.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_number-one_hits_(Germany)
    It doesn't say how many of those English-language hits are American vs UK, or even German using a 2nd language. I'd expect it to be at least 200 UK judging from the anecdotal samples.
  • Jarren about 1 year ago

    What point are you trying to make, mate?
  • hatfulofelt about 1 year ago

    "By the way, how much is the fish?"

    Sandra - Everlasting Love (1988) peaked at #45 in the UK in 1989. Again, no relevance to this thread.
  • djcarbines about 1 year ago

    It's not looking good for UK acts having German #1s lately. Nothing since Ed Sheeran 2 years ago, but UK acts (or acts in collaboration that got credited) did dominate the final quarter of 2016. Responsible for more German #1 hits in that one quarter than Germany have had UK #1s in the last 15 years.
  • djcarbines about 1 year ago

    Jarren
    What point are you trying to make, mate?


    UK is a more international and diverse market that is better / more successful at exporting it's music than Germany is. By size of domestic market Germany > UK. Because of the success of international trade and per capita spending, UK is still the more culturally significant market to breaking an international act, despite the smaller gross domestic sales.

    That is why for so long it has been treated as a separate entity to mainland Europe in terms of music marketing. It may continue to do so.

    US and Japan are both bigger markets, but both more insular and restricted homogenous radio playlisting than UK. For example, any style and any country of origin goes in the UK and can be sold to make a living from. In the US, if it ain't rap, rock or country, good luck getting anywhere near national or even regional success. Japan even worse - not likely to sell much western (non-Japanese) music there.
    I expect German acts and recordings have had even less success in America than they have in UK.
  • bertielego about 1 year ago

    rugogs
    Falco

    Wasn't he Austrian?
  • hatfulofelt about 1 year ago

    bertielego
    Wasn't he Austrian?

    Yes.
  • rugogs about 1 year ago

    rugogs edited about 1 year ago
    bertielego
    rugogsFalco
    Wasn't he Austrian?


    Technically yes, but the Austrian radio initially refused to play his songs so he had to get a deal in Germany.
    Btw. his first album in 1981 charted #64 in the US Billboard Charts (13 weeks in Top 100) and his first single "Der Kommissar" got #10 in US Dance Charts (8 weeks in Billboard Top 100) while in UK he didn't chart at all.
  • hatfulofelt about 1 year ago

    djcarbines
    In the US, if it ain't rap, rock or country, good luck getting anywhere near national or even regional success.

    I guess Madonna and Backstreet Boys and Katy Perry and Britney Spears and Justin Timberlake and Billie Eilish and Black Eyed Peas and Beyoncé aren't that well known then. Sad. :)

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