Coordinated Fake Releases

Cyclops-X and st.magellan have been submitting obviously fake releases that are supposed to be "lost" tapes from the '80s and '90s. Modular Systems was nuked, I put up Cybernetic Anarchy, Brute Science, Music For Hospitals and Cinema Zero for deletion, and it there are several others in st.magellan's submission history that now look pretty suspect. Would love to get some more eyes on this.

I'm writing a blog post about this. I think I get what is going on, though the "why" still perplexes me.

Edit: Due to some new findings, I decided to post some info in the reply below this one.

Considering that Michael Yoder lists Tone Stucco as one of the projects he's been a part of, and given this announcement by A&M which is apparently from 1996: https://www.tamiu.edu/newsinfo/1996/12/poetry-reading19971212.shtml (it must be noted however that the WayBack Machine has no archive of this page from any period in time as of writing) I think it's fair to say that the Michael Yoder and Tone Stucco releases are legitimate. As for Invisible Toy, there is a review of an album called "Ceramic Metropolis" by Invisible Toy released under the Grazing Pigeon Records label dating from 2001: http://www.aural-innovations.com/issues/issue14/invtoy01.html . The Internet Archive has a capture of that page from March/2001: http://web.archive.org/web/20010306023911/http://www.aural-innovations.com/issues/issue14/invtoy01.html

Although I was initially skeptical about the Young Scientist album due to not finding any info, it looks like a legit release. The release page for the original 1979 release was created by someone else back in 2008.

Energy Brats, Jet Jaguar, Not Popular, The Brain and Foreign Agents are all recent projects that St. Magellan is directly involved in.

I think that maybe what we might be seeing here is a group of people whose past musical works were indeed lost documenting their past releases. But I remain uncertain over the Sines of Exquisite Pleasures releases. I've found no information whatsoever looking for that name or for Douglas Em, even going through zines, and the info and images available seem suspicious. We'll need either Cyclops or St. Magellan to provide a scan of one of the zines (preferrably a complete scan of the zine, which would also help archival purposes) mentioned in the existing discussions, or some other form of third-party verification (I have a few ideas I might try).

Wow, that was really good research, thank you.

No opinion on Brute Science or Cybernetic Anarchy?

The only things I can find on both Elektron Free System and Brute Science are the Discogs page for it and an upload of the tape on the same channel as the one I found Sines of Exquisite Pleasures on (Lama Toru), which I believe might be connected to the Grazing Pigeon Records channel. The thing that most bothers me about this release is that the picture of the unfolded J-Card uses Arial for the tracklist, which didn't exist until 1982. It also just looks poorly overlaid with Paint or similar software, which doesn't help too much.

Zeiss Ikon's Cybernetic Anarchy looks legit, and the members credited were both involved in Invisible Toy and the projects St. Magellan participated in later on, so I'm fairly confident about this being an older release from the St. Magellan/Michael Yoder circle.

Edit: More info re: Cybernetic Anarchy. On Aural Innovations, the same website that covered Invisible Toy's Ceramic Metropolis, there is an interview with Jet Jaguar where Charles Van de Kree (St. Magellan) talks about Zeiss Ikon and Cybernetic Anarchy: http://aural-innovations.com/2004/april/jetjag03.html . The WayBack Machine also has a capture of this page dating from/July 2004: http://web.archive.org/web/20040706080157/http://aural-innovations.com/2004/april/jetjag03.html

IvanDSM
a group of people whose past musical works were indeed lost documenting their past releases

But why they've chosen to do it with the assistance of a man whose face was made in Microsoft Paint is the mystery.

dunforthemoment
But why they've chosen to do it with the assistance of a man whose face was made in Microsoft Paint is the mystery.

Yeah, the Douglas Em thing still boggles me. I'm still tending towards that stuff being fake. Maybe they're trying to do an ARG of sorts, kind of like the whole Mario 64 Beta stuff? If that's the case I would really just appreciate more honesty regarding it being a fantasy release and not a legitimate 1980s album...

The removed Sines of Exquisite Pleasure tape is/was being sold at https://amtapeworks.com/ ostensibly as real, so I assumed it was either some sort of viral marketing thing or an attempt to boost credibility for releases that are modern recordings passed off as being reissued/rediscovered.

As I've told dubfunkcoustic, I don't believe American Tapeworks or Fantasy Audio Magazine (who are responsible for manufacturing the reissues of Modular Systems and Music for Hospitals respectively) are "in on it". The other releases from American Tapeworks are all legitimate and Fantasy Audio Magazine seems to both do their own thing with audio zines and tapes for fantasy TTRPG immersion and manufacture cassette releases for artists in regular "drops".

IvanDSM
The other releases from American Tapeworks are all legitimate

How did you determine that? None of them are in Discogs, which I thought was a bit iffy.

I've put the information I've collected, including the info I've gathered on the American Tapeworks releases, up on my website: https://ivandsm.github.io/2022/12/04/on-sines-of-exquisite-pleasure.html

I apologize for the terrible web design, I'm more of a low level programming person...

Great work, IvanDSM. Here's one you might have missed.

Check out the colour version of the image that was replaced by a B&W version and then disabled. In colour it's more noticeably a computer graphics person.

https://www.discogs.com/artist/11923661-Douglas-Em/images/update

dunforthemoment
Check out the colour version of the image that was replaced by a B&W version and then disabled. In colour it's more noticeably a computer graphics person.

https://www.discogs.com/artist/11923661-Douglas-Em/images/update

Yea, it's a collage.
Looks like someone let his little kid do some scissor & paste work.

Actually I like such absurd practices in some way. Maybe we should start a new site: www.fakeogs.org - To preserve the fake
(and maybe set up some stuff with donations and such...)

It seems fairly conclusive that the "original" Sines of Exquisite Pleasure releases are fake, and if you agree I encourage you to vote for their deletion. I am not doubting that the "reissues" exist and have some sort of audio on them, and I think they can stay. I did, however, already remove the reissue tags from them.

Brute Science seems to also be fairly conclusively fake. It is possible that Cybernetic Anarchy is not, but it is very concerning that it was added by the same user who submitted the others and has no other meaningful contribution history.

All questionable releases have been voted for deletion and I blanked the Douglas Em and Sines of Exquisite Pleasure bios. I suppose this is pretty much wrapped up at this point, though I would have liked to have heard from st.magellan about the whole thing.

hbent
I would have liked to have heard from st.magellan about the whole thing.

Based on the example in this thread, all this user's subs should be treated as suspicious.

There's also stuff like Not Popular - All Systems Glow which is a private Youtube video. Looks like someone's hobby project gotten out of hand.

File a support request while you're at it. This user's access to the DB should be restricted.

I'll keep an eye on Cyclops-X and if he pops up again with anything even remotely suspicious I'll definitely file an SR. IvanDSM came up with what seems like reasonable evidence that at least some of the st.magellan subs are OK, so I'm not willing to raze everything because he might have been caught up in something that he wasn't aware of. That being said I certainly won't stand in your way if you want to go through and investigate or propose to delete anything else.

Not sure how I missed this the first time around but at https://amtapeworks.com/ there is no way to actually buy anything, and no contact information other than a generic web "contact us" form. I'm no longer convinced that the Sines of Exquisite Pleasure "reissues" should stay.

Music For Hospitals does exist at https://candlefam.bandcamp.com/album/music-for-hospitals so someone either went to a lot of trouble to mock up a fake physical release or it was actually available for purchase at some point.

^ The download is now going for $999 there, maybe we're inadvertently inflating the value of this music.

hbent
Not sure how I missed this the first time around but at https://amtapeworks.com/ there is no way to actually buy anything, and no contact information other than a generic web "contact us" form.

That means nothing, at "consumer level" we might be used to webshops etc., but you would be surprised how many things are only available through straight contact (phone/email/letter), and sometimes it's even hard to find how to contact the firm. In my own business, the only way to do an "online purchase" is open up the .pdf catalog and send an email or phone me. (And this works very well.)

Mail order is nothing more than: contact seller, do a bank transfer, wait for the item to arrive. (Or at business level: pass order through phone/fax/mail, wait for items to arrive, do the bank transfer)

dunforthemoment
^ The download is now going for $999 there, maybe we're inadvertently inflating the value of this music.

On "Fantasy Audio".

Who says there even is anything of audio lurking beneath those downloads? After all, for that price nobody's going to bother.

Just like a private YouTube video doesn't prove anything exists (making abstraction from the fact a video wouldn't be eligible anyhow).

And then there's the "sold out" cassette... This sure looks like someone going through a lot of effort to make something look real that isn't.

rdvriese
Who says there even is anything of audio lurking beneath those downloads?

I'm not an expert on Bandcamp but when you press Play you do hear something.

https://www.discogs.com/release/24776123-Music-For-Hospitals/history#latest

disruptive-influence

Has anyone opened a support request about this?
If these really are fake and I suspect they may be the person in questions needs banning

I just did (as I also suggested earlier). Curious if it will lead to something more than the suggestion to take it tot the forum.

It's getting harder and harder to assume good faith from these submitters. All remaining subs could do with a closer look, but if it were up to me, nothing that can't be proven definitely to exist should be given benefit of the doubt here.

rdvriese
It's getting harder and harder to assume good faith from these submitters

It really is!
Creating fictitious pages on various websites seems to be how some people spend their time these days.
There seems to be more and more of it. As with all the Cayone Records nonsense that went on a few weeks ago.

rdvriese
https://www.discogs.com/release/24776123-Music-For-Hospitals/history#latest
I just did (as I also suggested earlier). Curious if it will lead to something more than the suggestion to take it tot the forum.

I would be very surprised if it did, but I suppose that's a subject for a different thread.

dunforthemoment
^ The download is now going for $999 there, maybe we're inadvertently inflating the value of this music.

Several of the releases on that site seem to have the download price set at $999. I'm guessing it's a "you can stream this but not actually download it" tactic.

One one hand I'm tempted to try to buy the American Tape Works release, but on the other hand I really don't want to give money to a scammer. I suppose I could at least make contact and see what happens.

hbent
Not sure how I missed this the first time around but at https://amtapeworks.com/ there is no way to actually buy anything, a

No download options either - and I'm sure downloads don't get offered through contact forms.

Sines Of Exquisite Pleasure - Modular Systems only exists on Youtube as a supposed "rare find". Then also being shared through reddit etc.

rdvriese
No download options either

If they're really cassette fetishists that's not so surprising.

dunforthemoment
If they're really cassette fetishists that's not so surprising.

No, but it's something to take into consideration when file releases are submitted linking to that website as a source.

disruptive-influence
Creating fictitious pages on various websites seems to be how some people spend their time these days.

Just a weird hobby or could there be some scheme to monetize Youtube videos of "rare lost releases" (or possibly counterfeit cassettes of stuff that never existed to begin with) by creating a fake pedigree for them?

It's amazing someone would go through all this effort just for no purpose.

rdvriese
On "Fantasy Audio".

Who says there even is anything of audio lurking beneath those downloads? After all, for that price nobody's going to bother.

There is audio (preview is free and comes from the same source as the effective downloads on bandcamp).
The price is also relative: for $3/month you have access to all their releases, including the ones priced at 999$.
So there is no doubt there is a release. Question is: is it what it claims to be?

The label is called "Fantasy Audio Magazine"
Maybe it indeed is all a "Fantasy", in that aspect, it is actually really interesting what they do.

It reminds me of projects like In Sotto Voce (a so called Yugoslavian formation, which was actually a well known Belgian, producer duo), or more recently: Violence Conjugale (Claimed to have released a single release in 1981, disappeared around 1985 and suddenly returned.)

They play with the fact that all "historical facts" are in fact a fantasy that became reality through the consensus mechanism, based on documents from the past, which more often than not provide a coloured view from the perspective of the one who created the document. Stories are created by providing our mind a set of loose "facts" (or what is thought to be a fact) and our minds immediately tries connecting these loose facts to a coherent story.
This knowledge is the base of "movies". Loose images are edited in such a way we see a coherent story, while an analysis shows just a series of separate shots which contain returning elements to create the illusion of coherence. (I could write a book about this, but I'll keep it short.)

Of course such a project needs action to trump the audience. The (so called) re-issues for sure should stay. The faked originals are very dubious.
This is art of the highest level, although submitting fake releases is against guidelines. But it's part of the game, of course... we have no choice but remove them.

Dr.SultanAszazin
It reminds me of projects like In Sotto Voce (

At least something existed there.

Dr.SultanAszazin
This is art of the highest level,

There's tons of examples. Sometimes the joke is obvious (Jazz Sabbath), sometimes less so. But if it's supposed to be art, original it ain't.

Dr.SultanAszazin
The (so called) re-issues for sure should stay.

Why? None has been proven to exist yet, the so-called cassettes are mock-ups. Something tells me we shouldn't expect any form of enlightenment from the OSs.

rdvriese
But if it's supposed to be art, original it ain't.

There is no need for arts to be original, that's a fairly recent (20th century) development that is mostly unique to Western cultures and it's actually fading away slowly at this moment already.

rdvriese
the so-called cassettes are mock-ups.

Anything listed under the bandcamp page https://candlefam.bandcamp.com really seem to be more than mock-ups.
There is music & any release I check has actual photo's of the tape.
I don't really see any reason to suppose these releases do not exist.

For amtapeworks.com all releases are very recent or scheduled in the future. If we would suppose any submission from a label owner or artist which uses digital images instead of images of actual items, is fake... we for sure would be wrong in 99% of the cases.

It's a standard Wordpress (or similar) web design. The fact some things are missing (mainly some form of address), doesn't mean a lot as it is very common for small ventures to make that kind of errors.

The right action now is having a bit of patience. The domain was registered 2 weeks ago (November 12th 2022).

The tapes they sell:
-a reissue of Lauri Paisley - Memor Exodus , the original is for sure real (submitted 7 years ago, youtube videos exist, pirate rips are available without much effort)
-The digital bandcamp issue of Sines Of Exquisite Pleasure - Modular Systems is available here: https://sinesofexquisitepleasure.bandcamp.com/album/modular-systems and pirate rips of this cassette are already circling around, I mean real tape rips, not the bandcamp downloaded files, I hear hiss using headphones.)
- Port Said - Through Veils this one exists as original too in the database (the amtapeworks edition is scheduled for march 2023)

[EDIT] -> The tape rip from Modular Pleasures has some dubious elements: hiss is only noticable during music and disappears between tracks. It rather sounds like a remaster from a tape original, possibly the source used to create the "reissues"
So at this point it seems this music did exist on tape, but physical proof of the reissue has yet to come.
(But then again, how much music is not present on discogs after circling around for several years? this one is released in December, so max. a few days old...)
It's not music I will listen to, otherwise I'd just purchase a few and see.

If I were going to fake a release like this, the first thing I would do is to record it onto an old cassette, record it back to the computer, and then "release" my rip via underground channels. And it seems like this is exactly what they did.

Does Energy Brats - Amplified Reality look like another fake to anyone else? Particularly the images of the casette itself.

rdvriese
It's amazing someone would go through all this effort just for no purpose.

The trollface-looking composer might be the only clue to the motive.

wibblejunior
the images of the casette itself.

A manky old tape, released this year, identical in every respect, including grime, on side A and B? Sure

hbent
If I were going to fake a release like this, the first thing I would do is to record it onto an old cassette, record it back to the computer, and then "release" my rip via underground channels. And it seems like this is exactly what they did.

That's possible, but it's speculation at this point...
Especially because the rip I have is definitely not recorded on old cassette and back to digital.
It rather sounds like recorded from cassette, edited the audio (such as fade volume to zero in between tracks to eliminate noise on silent parts) and released as such.

At this point we the only thing we miss is a physical proof of one of the amtapeworks reissues.

If I would need to make a list of all music and video releases I have seen in the past, but where there is no single reference to be found any more on internet and further...
If I only knew I would never see them again at that time...
Luckily these days it happens more and more artists suddenly re-release things they made in the past in a local underground setting because it's now so much more easy to do so.

It really puzzles me how easy things are deemed fake or non-existant, simply because it's the first time it was documented.
It's good that question marks are put up on some things, but at this point, these are question marks. As long as they are question marks, no action should be taken but search for the answer.

One existing release that is being removed from the database is worse than 10 non-existing subs that are over-looked. Care should be taken, sentiment towards these things should be filtered out.
Sadly we miss a tag called "questionable submission" to be used, so a warning can be shown. Now it is "stay or go", black or white. Even if there are more question marks than answers.

wibblejunior
Does Energy Brats - Amplified Reality look like another fake to anyone else? Particularly the images of the casette itself.

They used the propler blur on the song titles on side B of the cassette but forgot to on side A. Sheesh. I really was assuming good faith for st.magellan after IvanDSM 's research but things are looking worse and worse...

I wonder if, in the case of the Michael Yoder / Tone Stucco stuff they took an existing artist and have added fantasy releases to their output, or maybe even fantasy music for releases that really may have existed at some point. That would certainly be in line with their trying to use Klaus Schulze for Brute Science which is the part of this that I really find the most distasteful.

dunforthemoment
wibblejuniorthe images of the casette itself.

A manky old tape, released this year, identical in every respect, including grime, on side A and B? Sure

hbent
wibblejuniorDoes Energy Brats - Amplified Reality look like another fake to anyone else? Particularly the images of the casette itself.

They used the propler blur on the song titles on side B of the cassette but forgot to on side A. Sheesh. I really was assuming good faith for st.magellan after IvanDSM 's research but things are looking worse and worse...

I wonder if, in the case of the Michael Yoder / Tone Stucco stuff they took an existing artist and have added fantasy releases to their output, or maybe even fantasy music for releases that really may have existed at some point. That would certainly be in line with their trying to use Klaus Schulze for Brute Science which is the part of this that I really find the most distasteful.

OK. I've marked that one for removal.

wibblejunior
Does Energy Brats - Amplified Reality look like another fake to anyone else? Particularly the images of the casette itself.

Side 1 of the cassette is obviously a fake image, it is an edited image of side 2.
J-card is a digital source, not the J-card itself
Cassette side 2 looks genuine.

All images are taken straight from https://energybrats.bandcamp.com/album/amplified-reality
(Or from the same source, as the artist uploaded it himself)

Probably does exist, but image guidelines are ignored.

Dr.SultanAszazin
Cassette side 2 looks genuine

In that it's actually a cassette shell? I agree to that extent.

wibblejunior
dubfunkousticwibblejuniorthe images of the casette itself.

A manky old tape, released this year, identical in every respect, including grime, on side A and B? Sure

hbentwibblejuniorDoes Energy Brats - Amplified Reality look like another fake to anyone else? Particularly the images of the casette itself.

They used the propler blur on the song titles on side B of the cassette but forgot to on side A. Sheesh. I really was assuming good faith for st.magellan after IvanDSM 's research but things are looking worse and worse...

I wonder if, in the case of the Michael Yoder / Tone Stucco stuff they took an existing artist and have added fantasy releases to their output, or maybe even fantasy music for releases that really may have existed at some point. That would certainly be in line with their trying to use Klaus Schulze for Brute Science which is the part of this that I really find the most distasteful.

OK. I've marked that one for removal.

I don't know what to say here. https://energybrats.bandcamp.com/album/amplified-reality seems to exist but at the same time the higher resolution photos on Bandcamp make it even more obvious that the cassette pictures (side A especially) are photoshops.

wibblejunior
OK. I've marked that one for removal.

Should have asked for actual images, as it takes 2 clicks to find the source where it is available...
The error here is in the image submission guidelines not being respected.

There are more disabled versions of the cassette shell images, but they can't be viewed while the release is up for removal.

dunforthemoment
In that it's actually a cassette shell?

Well yes, and that there is no obvious tampering with the artwork on that side. (Expecting that any tampering would be with the same "precision" as the other side.)

hbent
the higher resolution photos on Bandcamp make it even more obvious that the cassette pictures (side A especially) are photoshops.

It looks like the cassette itself was photographed with an old Nokia phone or something.
Thing is, if it's for sale on Bandcamp and it wouldn't exist, that should be reported to Bandcamp.
Bandcamp payment is through Paypal, so it's hard to scam people that way.
It would really puzzle me if someone tries Bandcamp to scam people with fake cassette releases....
(Although one must never underestimate stupidity..;)

I do think the cassette exists, but the guy putting up the images really must have a problem with his eyesight... It looks damn fake like that.

Dr.SultanAszazin
That's possible, but it's speculation at this point...

Based on:

Dr.SultanAszazin
obviously a fake image

and the user's whole history it's rather speculation that something real actually exists.

With bad faith actors

rdvriese
nothing that can't be proven definitely to exist should be given benefit of the doubt

The submitter even made up fake reviews to prove existence of the "originals" with the first removal. So why bother asking them for photos? Even if they artily touch up a real cassette as "proof", it still proves nothing.

rdvriese
and the user's whole history it's rather speculation that something real actually exists.

In regards to Cyclops-X I think the removals were correct.

In regards to st.magellan it rather looks that submissions, especially images, are of low quality (including Bandcamp), but it is far from sure the releases are made up. Especially because the same kind of image tampering appears on bandcamp, and it would be strange if an artist fakes his own releases on a site where this would lead inevitable to problems.

The Energy Brats cassette release is probably a home creation using printed labels on the cassette, but as it is available, it is eligible.
It's highly speculative to put this up for removal.

One should take care not to put extra crimes on the head of a convicted criminal as a form of extrapolation. If he did 'this', he probably did 'that' too. That is exactly what speculation is... roller coaster speculation.

(In regards to 'fake reviews' Cyclops-X made one, St.Magellan didn't do that.)

Dr.SultanAszazin
In regards to st.magellan it rather looks that submissions, especially images, are of low quality

Have you seen this, any thoughts from a composite image standpoint?

https://www.discogs.com/artist/11923661-Douglas-Em/images/update

this one has clean pics of all the cd art (could be excusable as the artist having the master psds but 20+ years on? hmm)
but what really seals it as fake is the XKCD art, which wouldn't exist for years after 2001.
https://www.discogs.com/release/15722200-Jet-Jaguar-Rocket-Science

lempamo
this one has clean pics of all the cd art (could be excusable as the artist having the master psds but 20+ years on? hmm)
but what really seals it as fake is the XKCD art, which wouldn't exist for years after 2001.
https://www.discogs.com/release/15722200-Jet-Jaguar-Rocket-Science

Oh for goodness sake, I hadn't dug that deep but that's pretty lame and a clear red flag for removal. I really should go over the st.magellan stuff with a fine tooth comb.

i'd also want to call attention to the ethical problem relating to 'Modular Systems'. assuming douglas em never existed, that would mean Cyclops-X would be implicitly inviting people to contact and/or harass the person living at the address listed on the "J-card". also worth noting that according to public records, 'douglas' does not live at that address presently

Dr.SultanAszazin
One should take care not to put extra crimes on the head of a convicted criminal as a form of extrapolation. If he did 'this', he probably did 'that' too. That is exactly what speculation is... roller coaster speculation.

That has nothing to do with it. It's a question of database hygiene. If a user puts up a ton of fake stuff, there's no point in keeping some other stuff because, possibly it's a bit less fake than the others.

Do you seriously expect a serious reply from the submitters?

The database is full of unverifiable stuff that we keep because "something might be out there".

We used to say that's just a corner of the database, but a large corner it is now.

As far as I'm concerned it just undermines the credibility of the database as a whole. Quantity, quality... whatever.

But the "majority" - of four votes - has spoken, so the fluff stays. So be it.

It's frustrating that vandals and the like get it easier than serious contributors who have to go through all the forum shit to get anything done here - if anything gets done.

I've filed my SR, I trust staff will look into it, and I trust eventually nothing will come out of it. Happy collecting everyone, and please consider my part in this thread over.

dunforthemoment
Have you seen this, any thoughts from a composite image standpoint?

https://www.discogs.com/artist/11923661-Douglas-Em/images/update

Yea, have seen this, see https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/981667?page=1&message_id=9978631#9976840

Douglas Em / Sounds Of Exquisite Pleasure is a bit of a question mark.
I think it might be a made up 1980's personality, although I'm not sure.

Reading the liner notes on Sines Of Exquisite Pleasure – Music for Hospitals, he might be real. These liner notes are very coherent and he seems to have moved into the dark academic corners of our universities. Exactly the place where loads of stuff is made in ultra limited editions for an ultra limited audience and where the existence of things is only a memory for a few who were there...

I really can't tell whether he is fiction or reality.
The liner notes tell me he made "Music for the films of Maya Deren", I cannot find anything about this music, but as I like Maya Deren a lot, it definitely makes me curious.

I think the only way to check if he is real, is contacting the named universities, especially the Concordia University, Portland, Oregon, as he should have thought music theory and composition there. The period when is not clear, but as it is claimed he was born in 1961, that should be 1980's and/or 1990's.

I tried an image search, but nothing showed up...

Maybe it's all fiction, but maybe it's not.

The tampering with these images is very strange in some aspects... at some point you can see the head is clearly cut out, except... where there is the lighter shadow on the wall, there it seems the head effectively was there... In the shadow free area and the dark shadow there is clearly some cutting pasting of some kind.
What is also strange: the position of the synth. How can you you adjust the sound when it stands like that?

In the youtube video of Sines Of Exquisite Pleasure - Modular Systems, there is an image of a different cassette than the reissue. It might be an effective 1980's cassette.

I really tend to believe it actually is genuine, but there is a very poor amateurish way of handling images, possibly trying to improve bad photographs, or scans, rather than trying to create a mock up.

But I wouldn't know... it's remains a question mark.

Billion Year Spree seems real enough but based on http://aural-innovations.com/2004/april/jetjag03.html the original art looked like this: http://aural-innovations.com/2004/april/jetjag3a.jpg

Dr.SultanAszazin
here there is the lighter shadow on the wall, there it seems the head effectively was there

Just a theory here, but do you suppose the person whose face was cropped out also had a head to begin with?

left a voicemail with concordia, will update when they get back. douglas is not listed as current faculty member on their site.

scratch that. i contacted the wrong uni. the real one has been closed since 2020 (convenient!).

It seems very suspicious that the only verifiable Invisible Toy release, from IvanDSM's link at http://www.aural-innovations.com/issues/issue14/invtoy01.html , is not on Discogs. Why wouldn't those folks have a copy of that release?

lempamo
this one has clean pics of all the cd art (could be excusable as the artist having the master psds but 20+ years on? hmm)
but what really seals it as fake is the XKCD art, which wouldn't exist for years after 2001.
https://www.discogs.com/release/15722200-Jet-Jaguar-Rocket-Science

That guy really has something with images.
The backtray spine text -> would not fall right when put into a jewel case.

But... the music is real (and not that bad either) -> https://jetjaguar1.bandcamp.com/album/rocket-science
Probably a CD/CDr did exist, who knows... it is mentioned as being distributed to friends/family at the time.
I believe original files would still exist 20 years+ later (I have all my stuff still backed up from late 1990's and early 2000's), but the comic art is from 2015 and the images just don't fit a jewel case.

WhyTF make up images for something that probably exists??
The initial image submitted 2 years back is probably OK, or at least, he would have got away with it.
But then he adds two impossible "back" images...

dunforthemoment
Just a theory here, but do you suppose the person whose face was cropped out also had a head to begin with?

Hmm, it might have been one of those headless guys I've seen in some movie...
But maybe it was just one of those faceless guys from the other movie...

Seriously, benefit of the doubt is cool and that, but then there's just seeing all this evidence and still being credulous.

lempamo
left a voicemail with concordia, will update when they get back. douglas is not listed as current faculty member on their site.

I have reached out to Michael Yoder for comment on this.

also took time to browse the public list of National Endowment of the Arts grants (since douglas purportedly got one)... no mention of Douglas Em in the annual reports of 86-94 at all. the case is stronger for douglas being a fabrication

dunforthemoment
Seriously, benefit of the doubt is cool and that, but then there's just seeing all this evidence and still being credulous.

The thing here is: there is no doubt all kind of information is not correct (especially images)
But it also looks like the music itself all does exist.

If data on a release (date, images) is incorrect, but the release existed, then the releases shouldn't be removed but voted as incorrect and where possible, obvious fake dates should be removed. Fake images should be disabled.
Made up artists can be enlightened in the profile as being fictitious.

I say: be careful with that delete button. Better is to research the exact nature of the mocking and document these, certain question marks can be included in the profile.
Removal of releases should be reserved when the release does not exist, not when the data or images are incorrect.
A deleted mock up is a missed chance to inform others about the mock up. If someone types a certain release sold somewhere into a search engine, a discogs result should pop up and document the nature of the release.

That does not work with removed releases that exist in some form.

What if someone's looking for a 1982 tape that was released by a fictional entity? They're not going to see anything from 1982, because we figured out that was a fake date.

dunforthemoment
What if someone's looking for a 1982 tape that was released by a fictional entity? They're not going to see anything from 1982, because we figured out that was a fake date.

Uh, they will find the band profile, the reissue tape, and maybe (if it would exist, as there are pictures of a so called earlier issue) the fake 1982 tape.
just artist+title is enough to find the right documentation. (I have searched a lot for issues not present on discogs, finding another version or the master release, or even just the artist usually is enough.)

They're not going to see the 1982 tape, but they will find the information that there was no 1982 tape.
That is what we want.

Dr.SultanAszazin
Removal of releases should be reserved when the release does not exist, not when the data or images are incorrect.

They're not just incorrect, they're part of some attempt to pass them off as real. It goes way beyond that.

dunforthemoment
They're not just incorrect, they're part of some attempt to pass them off as real. It goes way beyond that.

Indeed. These are the procedures set out by the guidelines:

Does not exist = Removal
Incorrect information in a sub = Correct them and/or vote accordingly (and disable invalid images)
Counterfeit/mock/fake/bootleg/... = Enter/edit them correct in the database and document them as being a fake

Removal is reserved for something that clearly does not exist, not for something that is passed off as being something else as it appears to be.

Dr.SultanAszazin
Counterfeit/mock/fake/bootleg/... = Enter/edit them correct in the database

Can't you see the inherent contradiction here?

Dr.SultanAszazin
Removal is reserved for something that clearly does not exist

This is the kind of "fake" we're discussing, as far as I can remember.

dunforthemoment
Can't you see the inherent contradiction here?

No, of course not.
You enter the release correct as what it is.
That also counts for a counterfeit/mock/fake/bootleg/... or whatever.

dunforthemoment
This is the kind of "fake" we're discussing, as far as I can remember.

Some releases discussed here look like they don't exist, or at least, were note submitted based on the actual physical item and at best 'resemble' something that might exist. (I think the 1982 release was a correct removal)

But for other releases, like Energy Brats - Amplified Reality, it only seems the images are the problem, and the release itself exists as documented.

I think we have various cases here.
The musician (aka submitter) seems to be real. For some releases which have tampered images, but we know they exist. The motive is unclear. The topic is one day old...

One day... is too fast to decide for removal on a complex situation like this.
Best is to continue research, such as IvanDSM did.
Maybe st.magellan turns up over the course of the coming week?
There is no hurry yet.

But we're talking about things for which there's no evidence they exist. Someone has gone to the trouble to mock up artwork for them. I can't see where you're coming from with this.

dunforthemoment
for which there's no evidence they exist.

oh... for some things there is evidence it exists, for some there are clear indications.

Moreover, you cannot decide after one day that there is no evidence. That's just too quick.

They can come back and resubmit anything genuine with a clean account and play by the rules once they've been banned.

dunforthemoment
They can come back and resubmit anything genuine with a clean account and play by the rules once they've been banned.

That doesn't make sense.
Only delete what doesn't exist. RSG §15

Even if a users violates many guidelines, that should play no role in removal requests of releases that were submitted and which do exist. User can be blocked/banned/CIP'd/... but anything valid should just be handled correctly.

Most of the releases seem to exist, but it seems the submitter provides mostly digital images instead of photo's of the actual item.
But going through his submission, it seems they are mostly existing releases where he was involved in.
Many images posted here are the same as posted on bandcamp.
I think one of the main problems is that we have a submitter/artist who is mainly active her to manage his own stuff without much awareness of how the site works and what you can (or rather cannot) do here.

Dr.SultanAszazin
blocked/banned/CIP'd

This apparently requires an act of Congress lately; and we know how backed up those idiots are.

Dr.SultanAszazin
Most of the releases seem to exist

They all seem to initially, when you find them in a database that's considered fairly authoritative.

dunforthemoment
They all seem to initially, when you find them in a database that's considered fairly authoritative.

Most of them really just have mockup images added and are not made up releases. Seems to be a lot of this imaginary image activity about 8 months ago.

See for instance: Guild Navigators VS Jet Jaguar (4) - Deathrace Beyond The Stars
8 months ago, back tray card added, again not yet 'cut' to the right dimensions to make the spine text fit in a jewel case.
But this release was added earlier by someone else and the provided front image is valid.
No doubt it exists. The user seems to make a habit of trying the provide the "best" quality images, without taking in account they should represent the actual item.

here too: 8 months ago mockup images added to a release which for sure is real: Jet Jaguar (4) - Free Space
another existing release, also images added 8 months age: Jet Jaguar (4) - Billion Year Spree

Possibly these images don't even represent any actual artwork, so the images should go. Not the complete release.

Dr.SultanAszazin
the "best" quality images

coughDOUGLAS EMcough

dunforthemoment
coughDOUGLAS EMcough

Yea, Douglas Em is a separate chapter here.

Oh, there is a new Bandcamp page: https://americantapeworks.bandcamp.com/artists

Dr.SultanAszazin
dubfunkousticcoughDOUGLAS EMcough

Yea, Douglas Em is a separate chapter here.

Oh, there is a new Bandcamp page: https://americantapeworks.bandcamp.com/artists

Yeah, that wasn’t there yet when I put something up for removal. Funny eh?

You think there’s a pattern? Or still an honest answer forthcoming?

Dr.SultanAszazin
there is a new Bandcamp page

Awesome. The photo for "Sines" looks computer-generated to me.

rdvriese
You think there’s a pattern?

Well yes, a talent for image editing.
But looks like at least one cassette is effectively available.
The one that is possibly a mocked reissue.

Question about the other two might be: are these official with consent of the artists?
(Couldn't they ask for a decent photo if it was official...it's 2022...)

hbent
I wonder if, in the case of the Michael Yoder / Tone Stucco stuff they took an existing artist and have added fantasy releases to their output

I don't think this is the case. Michael Yoder and St. Magellan were in a band together. See https://www.discogs.com/release/15755857-Foreign-Agents-Developments-in-a-Dark-Room .

Dr.SultanAszazin

The label is called "Fantasy Audio Magazine"
Maybe it indeed is all a "Fantasy", in that aspect, it is actually really interesting what they do.

This isn't Fantasy Audio Magazine's main business as I noted in my blog post. They do TTRPG-oriented audio tapes and zines for immersion and whatnot. On the side, they seem to do cassette reissues/issues of new releases by current artists in regular drops. I don't believe that FAM are directly involved in this, except for the manufacture of the "reissue".

---

Regarding Douglas' color picture, I don't believe it to be a fake, but Discogs serves me very low quality JPEGs so there might be artifacts I'm not noticing.

I have gotten a reply from American Tapeworks regarding SEP/Modular Systems, and I've requested permission to reproduce the information here. They have also provided me with a means of contacting Douglas Em directly. I have yet to contact Fantasy Audio Magazine. In the meantime, I have updated my blog post with dunforthemoment's finding of the color version of Douglas Em's second picture as well as an animation provided to me that showcases an oddity where the inside and outside of the Modular Systems J-Card have the same artifacts in the same places.

IvanDSM
Regarding Douglas' color picture, I don't believe it to be a fake, but Discogs serves me very low quality JPEGs so there might be artifacts I'm not noticing.

It looks exactly the same "quality" as this:
https://f4.bcbits.com/img/0030700541_36.jpg

Yeah, that image is certainly... a thing...

I must say, the person in that picture is kind of reminiscent of Dave Scott as seen on the Jet Jaguar interview I linked earlier.

I just noticed that the original cover art for Foreign Agents - Developments in a Dark Room has been disabled. It's still visible from the "Edit Images" option. I thought I remembered seeing personnel info but it's not there. Thankfully, we have a picture of St. Magellan himself for comparison with the member on the lower right corner of the Developments in a Dark Room image: St. Magellan (Charles Van de Kree)

EDIT: Even better: the Qobuz page for Developments in a Dark Room credits St. Magellan/Charles van de Kree on every track. See https://www.qobuz.com/be-nl/album/developments-in-a-dark-room-foreign-agents/tagmn5mnuy1fc

IvanDSM
the original cover art

I don't think so, removal comment was
"That's just a mock-up of the band members."

Yeah, sorry, I meant original as in "first uploaded image". I've noticed that Foreign Agents' Bandcamp page has the same collage, although with a picture of a shadowy figure wearing a hat overlaid on top of St. Magellan's picture on the lower right: https://foreignagents.bandcamp.com/releases .

I also can't find anything about a Brain Westgate or an Arttek Magazine. It's also a huge red flag that the people who supposedly submitted these releases in good faith don't want to engage with other users.

Imho everything that's supposedly from the 80ies and has fake images should be nuked (most have been already) and the Bandcamp releases can stay as files.

Violent-Power
everything that's supposedly from the 80ies and has fake images should be nuked

I don't agree, a bunch of these releases are mentioned in various articles. The ones not mentioned have cat#s that fall in between.
The only problem is the addition of incorrect images, in other cases we don't remove the release because of that, we shouldn't do this now either.
There is little doubt these releases exist.
We should not remove something based on speculative forum talk.
Nuke the images, simple as that.
I provided enough examples to show that these images are added to real releases and currently there is no indication of a mass creation of non-existing submissions. (There is only the speculative suggestion by some here)

I can confirm the contact form for American Tapeworks does work.
I requested to pay through paypal and they replied they set up a bandcamp page to do this. Which is probably the reason it was raised yesterday. Remember the domain was only registered for 2 weeks from now. It's all very recent.
The bad quality images are not computer generated, they are simply scaled up images.
The Robert Em releases might not be 1980's music, but they do exist as recent releases for sure.

We shouldn't make a fool of ourselves by removing stuff that is readily available, just because there is some doubt and digital images are posted. So many aritsts/labels provide digital images for their own releases, so many submissions provide simple bandcamp mockups.

At this point, the only thing that needs to be done is research. Over the coming weeks things will get clear.

Dr.SultanAszazin
We shouldn't make a fool of ourselves by removing stuff that is readily available

Dr.SultanAszazin
There is little doubt these releases exist.

How are things like this "readily available" and what is there to remove any doubt: Sines Of Exquisite Pleasure - Music For Hospitals

To be clear, I said I was in favor of removing the releases supposedly from the 80ies, not the ones being sold on Bandcamp.

Dr.SultanAszazin
The bad quality images are not computer generated

So when you alluded to a childish cut'n'paste job, you really meant paper-based?

Part of me wants things like this to stay even if it's 100% fabricated. It's pretty fascinating.

I'm glad Ivan is documenting it in his blog, but leave them as drafts.

Violent-Power
How are things like this "readily available" and what is there to remove any doubt: Sines Of Exquisite Pleasure - Music For Hospitals

To be clear, I said I was in favor of removing the releases supposedly from the 80ies,

Agree that one is very dubious and I think the removal is correct.
If you indeed mean the 80's 'original' issues which are probably fantasy, I understood you wrong.
(I btw think these are all removed now, or am I wrong?)

I just browsed many submissions by st.magellan, including older stuff he was involved in, when reacting to your post. I was in the idea you were talking about those.

These 80's releases are currently dubious enough to be removed, and indeed can be resubmitted if it seems they were actually real.
(Sorry for the miscommunication)

dunforthemoment
So when you alluded to a childish cut'n'paste job, you really meant paper-based?

No ;)
It rather looks like a photo editor.
By not computer generated, I mean: not created by algorithm (for instance an app which mixes or creates 'new' faces).
Just a small jpg in 1990's internet quality that has been upscaled.

It makes me suspicious in regard to the reissues on bandcamp from the other artists (with real releases in the 1980's). unless it is an intentional aesthetic to use upscaled jpegs, I would think the artists could provide a decent profile image for their reissue.
Are these licensed, official reissues?
It is possible they are official, but I'm not sure.

IvanDSM this seals the deal for douglas. i contacted larry gross, former chair of the performing and visual arts dept at concordia university, about whether he worked with a "douglas em" (like doug's bio claims). this is what he sent back to me:

Hello,
Thank you for contacting me. I was chair of Performing and Visual Arts for about 12 years from the late 1990s to 2009. I have no recollection of a Douglas Em ever teaching in the department. It was a very small dept. with only three or four adjunct instructors. I was the only full-time art instructor during my entire time at Concordia.
Sorry I can help you any further.

Douglas Em does not exist.

oh and tacking on to this: Elektron Free System is just a ripoff of "Free System Projekt", an actual berlin school project from the Netherlands.
st.magellan just slightly modified the name and used a similar green building photograph for the artwork, all while the music has an extremely similar sonic palette to SoEP! why is he doin this

PS: oh and theyre both released on labels called "Quantum".