• jon40f about 1 year ago

    Can anyone answer my question, why does it say this cannot be sold in the discogs market place....
    https://www.discogs.com/release/1488052

    Regards
    Jon
  • jollijedi about 1 year ago

    Discogs likely received a complaint that it either 1) violated copyright or 2) was offensive/contained hate speech. I'm assuming the latter, but I've never listened to these two tracks (plus the unofficial/bootleg version is still allowed to be sold).

    There were a couple of similar threads on boards here in the past months.
  • jon40f about 1 year ago

    cheers, thank you
    Jon
  • guitarromantic about 1 year ago

    I'm all against hate speech, but it doesn't seem right to ban music from being sold in the marketplace just because of the musicians' offensive views. Skrewdriver are a very obvious example, but why just overtly offensive bands like them, and not others who have expressed their bigotry in interviews and public statements? Ted Nugent has called for the death of President Obama, yet his records are still for sale here. Hank Williams, Jr. has also made some subtly racist comments over the years. What about musicians accused of pedophilia or rape, like Michael Jackson or Gary Glitter?

    It seems like a slippery slope that's not truly necessary. However, I might be biased, because I have a couple Johnny Rebel 45s in my wantlist that I want to own for the shock value.
  • jon40f about 1 year ago

    cheers for your reply, looks like i will have to put on ebay, and i totally agree with your comments

    Regards
    Jon
  • rschilke 8 months ago

    IMHO nothing offensive in these lyrics... http://www.lyricsfreak.com/s/skrewdriver/anti+social_20270082.html
  • devin306 8 months ago

    Censorship is always arbitrary and short-sighted. It is curious to see Discogs shoot themselves in the head: allowing their private marketplace to be held hostage by censors who would determine what is safe for us to consume. Also it is quite sad that Discogs does not seem interested in standing up for the right of first sale, an essential underpinning of a free economy.

    I buy less on Discogs thanks to their lack of interest in our consumer rights. I suggest everyone rethink their purchasing patterns accordingly to their politics... me, I like freedom.
  • Sombunya 8 months ago

    I believe that after Discogs was purchased by "Zink Media" the policy discussed here, as well as other things, came into play.
  • Austin_Osman_Hoffman 8 months ago

    It is not about bad taste, which the above two are arguably examples of, it is about hate speech. At least that is what Discogs would argue I think. That Scewdriver release was prior to their embracing of white power politics and has nothing lyrically that could be construed as hate speech, which means Discogs have chosen to blanket ban all Screwdriver records from sale, even if they sang about being anti nazi. That is pretty stupid and is a very good example of the problems and contadictions caused when people try to censor, as it innevitably boils down to judgement calls. I personally object to anyone feeling they have the right to act as my conscience, which is all censorship really is, and it shoiuld be left entirely to the personal morality of the individual in my opinion.
  • Wiggingtons 8 months ago

    Hmmm. Discogs is a private business which provides a marketplace for buyers and sellers, among other things. Discogs doesn't limit your freedom to buy and sell Skrewdriver as you please -- you are perfectly free to do so. They just don't provide you a place to do it. There are many other kinds of items which they choose not to sell in their marketplace, such as sweaters, chocolate, food processors, or automobiles.

    It is up to Discogs to decide what their policies are, including what items you can buy on their site. Or don't you believe in their freedom?
  • praz 8 months ago

    Some labels/styles/genres are banned from sale on discogs, like the Marlboro Music releases, the oï music and stuff.
  • hysteric 8 months ago

    99.9% of these "banned" groups have zero interest for me, but I'm interested in the process.
    Why censor (for example) respected industrial group Genocide Organ https://www.discogs.com/Genocide-Organ-Remember/release/8657953
    but not (again for example) Kristallnacht https://www.discogs.com/Kristallnacht-Soldiers-Of-Triumphant-Sun/release/383471

    is there someone in discogs whose job it is to listen and hear what is "objectionable" or not?

    In my experience of dealing with discogs via support requests (on other topics), their rules are up to the interpretation of whatever staff member you happen to get.. meaning that the "rules" are actually worthless, since they are entirely subjective.
  • rose1978 8 months ago

    hysteric
    wish I could unsee that second one


    Sorry my friend. It's totally disgusting.....but this is discography's ideologies, attitudes & expressions. Dangerous things around (from cinema till music etc.). Censorship is obligated for things like this. But for ALL OF THEM. Democracy & equality is the "key".
  • emptycyb1 8 months ago

    Discogs can't be aware of all instances of severe hate speech and its promotion by a band. A n artist joins the list after being repordted to the administration, which in turn annalizes the nature and seriousness of said hate speech.
    The band that qualify are still featured on discogs, just "forbidden" to be sold.
    That has nothing to do with a moral point from discogs, it's just about the laws : many countries in the world severly punish the purchase and selling of such items.
    I also collect comic books, and for similar reasons, all US major cmoic book shops won't ship "mature readers" books outside of north america. It's kind of lazy in a way, as this would be a much smaller and flexible business, but they claim that alll in all, the process to vounch the legality of shipping a "mature" content to Sweden or Italy would be too heavy.
    Discogs being an automated sales tool where the company takes no part in the actual process of shipping and checking custom laws, the risk pf becoming enablers and distributors of hate speech items is far too big.
    Ebay won't sell any nazi propaganda items anymore as well, only stuff like coins, stamps, historical books. Of course, some things sometimes manage to slip through the cracks, but ebay isn't a real database (well it kind of has become one though, just not a public one)...
  • Austin_Osman_Hoffman 8 months ago

    Wiggingtons
    Hmmm. Discogs is a private business which provides a marketplace for buyers and sellers, among other things. Discogs doesn't limit your freedom to buy and sell Skrewdriver as you please -- you are perfectly free to do so. They just don't provide you a place to do it. There are many other kinds of items which they choose not to sell in their marketplace, such as sweaters, chocolate, food processors, or automobiles.

    It is up to Discogs to decide what their policies are, including what items you can buy on their site. Or don't you believe in their freedom?


    Actually it is a user built database for cataloguing music that some of the people who set it up decided to make money from by creating a market place, so it is certainly not as clear cut as you suggest and the relationship between Discogs and it's users is not the same as a pure consumer/provider relationship. I think them not selling chocolate or sweaters is a pretty silly point and an analogy that doesn't work at all.

    Of course, they get to decide on rules and regulations, but given the site wouldn't exist without users they at least have a duty to listen to the people who build the database they use and either explain their logic or be consistent with those rules and regulations. They decide and therefore their 'freedom' is assured. I have an opinion about censorship of this sort and I'm sure Discogs staff neither give a shit nor worry that my expression of that opinion in any way limits their freedom to make money.
  • Wiggingtons 8 months ago

    Looks like we disagree, then. I think it's more like how I put it.
  • Austin_Osman_Hoffman 8 months ago

    Wiggingtons
    Looks like we disagree, then.


    Indeed.

    Wiggingtons
    I think it's more like how I put it.


    I disagree.
  • hysteric 8 months ago

    hysteric edited 8 months ago
    jon40f
    Can anyone answer my question, why does it say this cannot be sold in the discogs market place....
    https://www.discogs.com/release/1488052


    rschilke
    IMHO nothing offensive in these lyrics... http://www.lyricsfreak.com/s/skrewdriver/anti+social_20270082.html


    going back to the 7" mentioned in the first post, it's weird that these 1970s releases of Skrewdriver are banned because (as a glance at the band's discogs page would reveal) they only became a 'white power' band after 1982, also with a totally different line-up.
    So what exactly is objectionable or offensive here?
  • hysteric 8 months ago

    and further you can't even see the statistics on these "banned" records anymore
  • woofhard_one 8 months ago

    it can be as simple as the label / copyright owner not wanting that certain record being sold in the Marketplace. I'm aware of this one for example, where the label owner had a meltdown and picked certain releases that he didn't want people selling here...

    https://www.discogs.com/Papa-Scull-Doctor-Scull-The-March-To-South-Africa/release/1866166
  • emptycyb1 8 months ago

    Wiggingtons
    Looks like we disagree, then. I think it's more like how I put it.


    Except as Austin Osman Spare suggested, discogs wasn't built as a marketplace/ The marketplace isn't the main function of this site. It may have become the most luvrative one, but at its core it's still a database. And I suggested, the marketplace aspect of it is still subjected to international laws, which they abide to with the best of their limited means available to check reported hate contents ( The database grew with almost two million new references in the past 12 months!). The result will obviously some anomalies.
  • nizbit 8 months ago

    It's absolutely ludicrous and hysterical and I couldn't be against it more.
    There's a tidal wave of folk out there these days who find everything objectionable and take offence about anything and everything.
    You won't be able to sell on evilbay because they deem even the tits on electric ladyland shocking and offensive.
    Best to add that you've got it in the descriptions of similar records and someone will snap it up.
  • Wiggingtons 8 months ago

    I said that Discogs "provides a marketplace for buyers and sellers, among other things."
    I don't see the part where I say it was built as a marketplace.
    Even if the database information is entirely public domain, the question here is specifically about the rules governing the marketplace. That marketplace is a private commercial enterprise, acting within its freedom to decide which items it makes available for sale.

    emptycyb1
    And I suggested, the marketplace aspect of it is still subjected to international laws, which they abide to with the best of their limited means available to check reported hate contents ( The database grew with almost two million new references in the past 12 months!). The result will obviously some anomalies.


    Sure, I don't disagree with any of this. In terms of the cost of determining whether a certain recording is inside or outside their compliance with laws and standards, they've may have chosen to accept that occasionally the wrong recordings will get banned, but decided that the benefits of this system outweighed the costs of another.
  • emptycyb1 8 months ago

    Exactly.

    nizbit
    It's absolutely ludicrous and hysterical and I couldn't be against it more.
    There's a tidal wave of folk out there these days who find everything objectionable and take offence about anything and everything.
    You won't be able to sell on evilbay because they deem even the tits on electric ladyland shocking and offensive.
    Best to add that you've got it in the descriptions of similar records and someone will snap it up.


    Again, no, it has nothing to do with the will or morals of the discogs entity, it's only about the various international import/custom laws. Imagine if someone in Germany purchased a openly nazi band (there's thousand of those with the NSBM!) record from outside Europe, the customs open the package and find out that the record was sold through discogs? Quite some bad PR and legal issues that discogs can easily live without buysometimes being over cautious, complety understandable. And if you're not happy with that, then you should work in politcs :)

    And always remember how it used to be before discogs and ebay, that helps put some perspective
  • nizbit 7 months ago

    I'm a Scorpio and it's impossible to offend me so I believe in absolute freedom of speech and expression, lesser signs are far more fragile and anti democratic.

    Just noticed Gloria Ann Taylor disco 12' is banned for sale now, original and all.
    Was she a fucking nazi now?
    What in the name of fuck is that all about?
    There's millions of bootlegs on here so it can't be that.
  • hysteric 7 months ago

    nizbit
    Just noticed Gloria Ann Taylor disco 12' is banned for sale now, original and all.
    Was she a fucking nazi now?
    What in the name of fuck is that all about?
    There's millions of bootlegs on here so it can't be that.


    get your popcorn ready...
    https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/53e4ef965e75a7489d11196c
  • patrickd 7 months ago

    I helped to uncover this gem 5000EURO ORIGINAL but let's not go into that.. The Music gallery version back in 14 which was 20 euro a week later DICKHEADS peddling copies for $100 plus, later withdrawn! just like DICKHEADS on ebay selling Yeezy/Boost Adidas for $1500 plus$$$$$$$ if you pay that kind of cash for $100 kicks you are a DICKHEAD NOT THAT I HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH YEEZY ADIDAS..... PS thought I would never own a copy thank you MUSIC GALLERY I hope you paid your royalties also a release on LUV'N Haight

    Yours Truly : D
  • ringorider 7 months ago

    Christ, how do people care about this?
  • DarreLP 7 months ago

    Austin_Osman_Hoffman
    Actually it is a user built database for cataloguing music


    Yep. And that's why anything (valid) can be added to the database.

    Austin_Osman_Hoffman
    that some of the people who set it up decided to make money from by creating a market place,


    Yep. That's the business part. And they can choose to decide to not let some items be sold.

    I can't buy t-shirts with swastikas on them at Target. That's not censorship. That's not oppression of free speech. It's just a (I'd argue, pragmatic) business decision by Target.
  • Austin_Osman_Hoffman 7 months ago

    Did you build the shop and shelves where Target sell their t-shirts? If not, it is not a good analogy. Discogs will set the rules and everyone must follow them, that is clear. But given they wouldn't have a market place to sell in without all the users who have built the database for free, their relationship to users is not the same as a simple provider/consumer and I would argue users should have more of a say in these matters.
  • rinkrat 7 months ago

    rinkrat edited 7 months ago
    They block this but allow Isis videos lol.
  • mikel68 7 months ago

  • DarreLP 7 months ago

    Austin_Osman_Hoffman
    Did you build the shop and shelves where Target sell their t-shirts? If not, it is not a good analogy.


    Did you build this website? The paypal integration? The servers and DB? It's fine analogy. Business can do what businesses want to do within reason. This is within reason.

    You can argue users should have more of a say. That's a fine argument. But that's really a different issue. And, at the end of the day, it's simply not a democracy. It's a business. Whether we like it or not.
  • irionman 7 months ago

    DarreLP
    Did you build this website? The paypal integration? The servers and DB? It's fine analogy. Business can do what businesses want to do within reason. This is within reason.


    Sure it is, especially if you want to disable yourself from earning a percentage from a good chunk of highly marketable music. Face it, Discogs banning things for sale on the marketplace only really hurts them. We can still find out who owns the particular releases and contact those users to find out if they are willing to sell and then take everything private from there. Banning anything because someone is offended is the sign of the cuck.
  • irionman 7 months ago

    DarreLP
    I can't buy t-shirts with swastikas on them at Target. That's not censorship. That's not oppression of free speech. It's just a (I'd argue, pragmatic) business decision by Target.


    That's a shit analogy. Target supplies their own content. Discogs does not. It is 100% user supplied, they just take a slice of the pie. Limiting anything from being sold only hurts their bottom line.
  • DarreLP 7 months ago

    DarreLP edited 7 months ago
    irionman
    Discogs banning things for sale on the marketplace only really hurts them


    Given that some of the items they don't allow to be sold is clearly illegal in many markets, it's pretty naive to say it hurts Discogs.

    Any company selling neo-nazi related (real or perceived) content is going to run into some headaches. I think it's reasonable to assume a lot of companies would prefer to just avoid said headaches.

    irionman
    That's a shit analogy. Target supplies their own content


    90% of what is sold at Target is not their product. They get it from suppliers.

    They, like any retailer, are just getting a slice of the pie.

    But that's not the point anyways. But I don't think some people really care what the point is. They just want to complain.
  • hysteric 7 months ago

    irionman
    We can still find out who owns the particular releases and contact those users to find out if they are willing to sell and then take everything private from there


    actually, you can't (anymore)
    if you look at the release pages of these banned releases the stats are hidden
  • irionman 7 months ago

    DarreLP
    90% of what is sold at Target is not their product. They get it from suppliers.


    You're wrong and missing the point. They have a shit ton of their own products, and they have dedicated contracts with major suppliers. They don't allow you to bring in your own crap and sell it in their store while they take a cut.

    DarreLP
    Given that some of the items they don't allow to be sold is clearly illegal in many markets, it's pretty naive to say it hurts Discogs.


    Some markets are illegal to buy some things, while other markets it isn't. It's not naive at all to say that it hurts them. The USA, for example, has no musical censorship. Denying a populous like that to potential sales is pretty dumb.

    hysteric
    actually, you can't (anymore)
    if you look at the release pages of these banned releases the stats are hidden


    Uh, yes you can. Like I said, there is still a way. Look at Aryan Kampf 88 - Furor Belgikus. Yeah, the stats are hidden. But when you direct link it: Furor Belgikus, you can see them plain as day.
  • DarreLP 7 months ago

    irionman
    The USA, for example, has no musical censorship. Denying a populous like that to potential sales is pretty dumb.


    What is "musical censorship"? We're just talking about selling products. Some of which some people deem highly offensive.

    Yes, Discogs loses money by not allowing them to be sold. They also save face and not have to deal with the backlash that can happen by selling them.

    It's a business decision someone made. Someone at Ebay made the same decision. It's not like this should be shocking to people.

    But, whatever. This topic comes up monthly. It will always be something a few people are upset about. *shrug*
  • irionman 7 months ago

    DarreLP
    What is "musical censorship"? We're just talking about selling products. Some of which some people deem highly offensive.


    Not allowing the selling of items based off of opinions of others is literally censorship. It applies in the business world just as it applies in the legal world.

    DarreLP
    Yes, Discogs loses money by not allowing them to be sold. They also save face and not have to deal with the backlash that can happen by selling them.


    Sure, that may be. It's just where I fail to see their rationale. Loose money but look better for it? Psh.

    DarreLP
    It's a business decision someone made. Someone at Ebay made the same decision. It's not like this should be shocking to people.


    I know it is. It's a stupid decision too. Too many people are too afraid to hurt someone else's feelings now. It's a joke. The pussification of the modern age.
  • DarreLP 7 months ago

    irionman
    Too many people are too afraid to hurt someone else's feelings now.


    Those poor Nazi's who had their feelings hurt because they could't sell their music here.
  • emptycyb1 7 months ago

    irionman
    Not allowing the selling of items based off of opinions of others is literally censorship. It applies in the business world just as it applies in the legal world.


    Again, you fail to understand or aknowledge that some "opinions" are illegal : you can't claim to be a nazi in France or Germany, it's plainly illegal. If someone in France bought a nazi item from the US through discogs and it got stopped at the customs, Discogs would face charges as the middleman.

    irionman
    Sure, that may be. It's just where I fail to see their rationale. Loose money but look better for it? Psh.


    When it was made public that nazi items were sold on ebay, thousands of customers stoped using ebay, so aside from the law aspect, it was a good decision from ebay, as the business it gains from nazi collectors is probably far lesser then the one from holocaust aknowledgers...

    I for one would highly question myself giving business on a regular basis to nazi worshipers enablers. Maybe you wouldn't, but do you consider yourself the majority in this case?
  • irionman 7 months ago

    emptycyb1
    Again, you fail to understand or aknowledge that some "opinions" are illegal :


    So don't buy it then. Having it viewable isn't illegal.
    emptycyb1
    Discogs would face charges as the middleman.


    No they wouldn't. International law can't extend like that. The only person to get I trouble is the buyer.

    emptycyb1
    When it was made public that nazi items were sold on ebay, thousands of customers stoped using ebay


    So they claim. That is stereotypical antifa hype. I don't believe the people who claimed to have stopped using ebay ever used it regularly to begin with, if at all.

    emptycyb1
    I for one would highly question myself giving business on a regular basis to nazi worshipers enablers


    Good for you. I like to make money though and I don't let politics get in the way.
  • emptycyb1 7 months ago

    OK, so I see your nickname neither refers to Eric Dolphy's groundbreaking LP nor to the Marvel character...

    irionman
    So don't buy it then. Having it viewable isn't illegal.


    Eh, I think you're confused. What has this got to do with the fact that so called "opinions" can be illigal?

    irionman
    No they wouldn't. International law can't extend like that. The only person to get I trouble is the buyer.


    Guess again, they did. And people actually sued ebay over it.
    The fact that they won or lost is BTW irelevant, as the time, energy and money spent on it isn't worth the few neo-nazis buying paraphernalia.

    irionman
    So they claim. That is stereotypical antifa hype. I don't believe the people who claimed to have stopped using ebay ever used it regularly to begin with, if at all.


    Suit yourself, but that was nevertheless their thinking, and iit probably is the same with discogs.

    irionman
    Good for you. I like to make money though and I don't let politics get in the way.


    Good, happy this now is clear.
    Then it is my opinion that you are one of those deplorables (and I am far from a Clinton supporter). Getting politics in the way of business is one thing, but dealing with neo-nazis and appealing to the lowest instincts of men is another.

    Plus, if you knew anything about the politics of Pierre Morad Omidyar (founder and still main owner of ebay, net worth close to 8 billion dollars), you wouldn't be surprised. But maybe that very net worth is synonym of bad business to you...
    And I'm sure you would have no problem making your main business about gays, SJW, etc if those were the biggest markets right now....
  • Sombunya 7 months ago

    I've got albums by Patrick Cowley and Klaus Nomi. Does that make me a supporter of homosexuals? Of course not. I own well north of 1000 Black/Death/Trash Metal LP's including Morbosidad, Goat Semen and Intolitarian. Pretty unholy by all accounts. I could have chosen a public school for free but I send my daughter to a private, Catholic school because I wanted her to get some religious education. That's costing me $1200/month. I also give generously to The Salvation Army and one other religious based charity.

    emptycyb1
    Then it is my opinion that you are one of those deplorables (and I am far from a Clinton supporter).


    Judging people by the records they buy or the music they listen to is shallow and myopic. Don't fall into that trap. If Discogs chooses to block the sale of something it's thier business.
  • irionman 7 months ago

    emptycyb1
    OK, so I see your nickname neither refers to Eric Dolphy's groundbreaking LP nor to the Marvel character...


    No, my nickname is my last name.

    emptycyb1
    Guess again, they did. And people actually sued ebay over it.


    They were not. And if they were, the lawsuits were unsuccessful or never made it to court due to being thrown out. International law wouldn't allow for a middleman marketplace to be held liable for an individual's sold content. The fault lies with the buyer, or with the seller if the seller was in an area where the items they were selling were illegal.

    emptycyb1
    Plus, if you knew anything about the politics of Pierre Morad Omidyar (founder and still main owner of ebay, net worth close to 8 billion dollars), you wouldn't be surprised. But maybe that very net worth is synonym of bad business to you...


    Net worth isn't what he has in the bank. It's his total worth including all assets he's associated himself with. Regardless of that, it remains a poor business choice to restrict "potentially offensive" material. Whether you're worth 8 billion dollars or 8 hundred dollars, denying the possibility to make more is always going to be a bad business decision. He was hoping it would make him look a little better to the crybaby generation.

    emptycyb1
    Then it is my opinion that you are one of those deplorables


    You sure you aren't a Hillary supporter? You sure sound like one. Just because you think something is offensive doesn't automatically make anyone who doesn't find it equally offensive as deplorable. It's hateful music, yup. It's racist, sexist, (*insert extra -ist statement here*) etc..., but it's music. To take offense to it is fine, but to expect others to do so too is retarded.

    emptycyb1
    And I'm sure you would have no problem making your main business about gays, SJW, etc if those were the biggest markets right now


    Nope, I would have no issue with it whatsoever. Money is money regardless of where it comes from or who it comes from. I wouldn't want to necessarily pander to the pathetic SJW community, but if I found a way to exploit them in turn for profit, you're damn straight I'd do it.
  • DarreLP 7 months ago

    We're simply talking about a business that would prefer to not have their profits in any way related to Nazis for whatever reason.

    That people argue that that is 'retarded' is...I dunno. Beyond me, I guess.
  • irionman 7 months ago

    DarreLP
    We're simply talking about a business that would prefer to not have their profits in any way related to Nazis for whatever reason.


    Only a small portion of the releases banned are related to Nazis.
  • ringorider 7 months ago

    The internet has made mankind appear to be a bunch of sadcases.
  • emptycyb1 7 months ago

    Sombunya
    Judging people by the records they buy or the music they listen to is shallow and myopic. Don't fall into that trap. If Discogs chooses to block the sale of something it's thier business.


    I'm judging him based on what he says, not his music tastes. And I stand by it as much as he does, just look beneath...

    irionman
    They were not. And if they were


    .... Do you realize how that sounds? Wow, that post-facts mentality sure has gained ground... Anyhow, you don't seem to get it, fine.

    irionman
    You sure you aren't a Hillary supporter? You sure sound like one. Just because you think something is offensive doesn't automatically make anyone who doesn't find it equally offensive as deplorable. It's hateful music, yup. It's racist, sexist, (*insert extra -ist statement here*) etc..., but it's music. To take offense to it is fine, but to expect others to do so too is retarded.


    Hahahaha, oh yes I'm sure, but boy did I read you right! And again, you assume stuff that wasn't there : I'm not taking any ofense in the music and don't assume anyone else does : merely explaining why sites such as ebay or discogs won't sell nazi stuff, I have no bone in the matter and don't pre-judge anyone on the basis of their music buying (their tastes, that could be another matter, but a minor one nevertheless ;-) )
    What I would judge someone on the basis of is statements like that one :

    irionman
    Money is money regardless of where it comes from or who it comes from.


    So, yeah, fuck laws, morality and society... It'll be a nice life in that bomb shelter.

    irionman
    Only a small portion of the releases banned are related to Nazis.


    Yes, and those are the one you've now been defending for a few posts, you know, the ones we're discussing as a good exemple of why their is an issue.
  • irionman 7 months ago

    emptycyb1
    So, yeah, fuck laws, morality and society... It'll be a nice life in that bomb shelter.


    It's not illegal for me to possess nor sell these items. Your argument is moot. Morals? Nope, don't care. I don't share the same morals as you do. I'm a collector, and I am good at what I do. As for society, you're really grabbing for air on that one.

    emptycyb1
    Yes, and those are the one you've now been defending for a few posts, you know, the ones we're discussing as a good exemple of why their is an issue


    No, those were examples. Every banned release can fit the same argument I've given above.
  • DarreLP 7 months ago

    irionman
    Morals? Nope, don't care


    But on some sort of level, I'm guessing Discogs does. Call it morals. Call it business ethics. Call it whatever.
  • emptycyb1 7 months ago

    irionman
    It's not illegal for me to possess nor sell these items. Your argument is moot.


    OK, you still don't get it : it is illegal to sell those items in some countries, that's just a fact, and it's not in discogs interest to help you that.
    But, yeah, be a criminal if you want, another reason to call you deplorable.
    You don't care from whom and where the money comes from, so you're just ok being a criminal, sad.
  • irionman 7 months ago

    emptycyb1
    OK, you still don't get it : it is illegal to sell those items in some countries, that's just a fact


    And? It's illegal to sell many things in different countries, but you don't just ban it because a few countries don't allow it.

    emptycyb1
    But, yeah, be a criminal if you want, another reason to call you deplorable.


    And you can continue being an idiot. If you think what I do is criminal, you're simply an idiot. Case closed. There is nothing criminal about selling music to anyone who wants to buy it. It's not my job to look up their country and make sure they are allowed to buy it, it's their job to know their local laws. Cut and dry. Very simple.

    DarreLP
    But on some sort of level, I'm guessing Discogs does. Call it morals. Call it business ethics. Call it whatever.


    And that's fine if they do. It would make more sense if they banned released from a moral stance as opposed to a "this person was offended by this, we are banning it as a result" type of stance.
  • DarreLP 7 months ago

    irionman
    And that's fine if they do. It would make more sense if they banned released from a moral stance as opposed to a "this person was offended by this, we are banning it as a result" type of stance.


    I'm pretty sure that definitely is *not* their stance. If it were, I imagine a lot more stuff would be removed from the marketplace.

    Like Nickleback.
  • emptycyb1 7 months ago

    irionman
    And? It's illegal to sell many things in different countries, but you don't just ban it because a few countries don't allow it.


    What? That's how you spin this? You are desperate my god : No one talked about baning anything but you now. I and I believe others are simply saying that Discogs is not bothering going through the hassle, and that maybe they also have a moral issue with certain items.

    irionman
    And you can continue being an idiot. If you think what I do is criminal, you're simply an idiot. Case closed. There is nothing criminal about selling music to anyone who wants to buy it. It's not my job to look up their country and make sure they are allowed to buy it, it's their job to know their local laws. Cut and dry. Very simple.


    OMG, you're unbelievable... Nowhere did I say it was illigal to sell any kind of music.
    But you do know that if you purchase or sell a stolen item you are a criminal, right? It's called concealment I believe. So just by affirming you would take money from any source without bothering checkig them because money is money, this implicitly means you're ok with being a criminal. And in my opinion, it would further more be deplorable to sell and accept money from from Nazis purchasing nazi paraphernalia and a big fuck to society and decency. But that's the opinion part, nothing more, except that in the cases of some countries such as France or Germany, that wouldn't just be an opinion but a crime, hence the issue Discogs would also have. Oh, and yeah, I'm pretty sure France and Germany are some of the biggest markets for discogs.
    Anyhow, keep deflecting and spining, I'll keep being an idiot for thinking about tha law and ethics...
  • emptycyb1 7 months ago

    irionman
    It would make more sense if they banned released from a moral stance as opposed to a "this person was offended by this, we are banning it as a result" type of stance.


    If you truely believe that is the case, you're beyond hope of cognitive functions. Morals indeed should always matter in business, unless you want more wars than we already have and more economical crisis such as that subprimes one thatthrew millions of people in the US alone out of their homes and into bankrumpcy...
  • irionman 7 months ago

    emptycyb1
    more economical crisis such as that subprimes one thatthrew millions of people in the US alone out of their homes and into bankrumpcy...


    Yeah, the economical crisis threw people out of their homes. It has nothing to do with general laziness and millennial mindsets. Sure.

    emptycyb1
    Nowhere did I say it was illigal to sell any kind of music.


    emptycyb1
    If someone in France bought a nazi item from the US through discogs and it got stopped at the customs, Discogs would face charges as the middleman.


    Yeah, looks like you did. You claimed being the middle man in a sale like that would be illegal. You went on to argue that.

    emptycyb1
    But you do know that if you purchase or sell a stolen item you are a criminal, right?


    What flawed thought processes lead you to this? I don't buy stolen items, and never claimed to. I don't care where I make my money, but every thing I do to make it is 100% legal. There were never any insinuations to the contrary. If Disney comes out with some stupid new movie aimed at teenage girls, chances are I'd be able to profit from merchandise also directed in the same area. Hence my original comment. Not illegal.

    emptycyb1
    So just by affirming you would take money from any source without bothering checkig them because money is money


    Yup. If I sold something, all I want is to get paid for it. That's called business. If the person pays me with money that he had robbed a bank with, I'm not liable for that, he is. If I had known he had robbed a bank and then proceeded to receive the funds regardless of that knowledge, then that's concealment. Your understanding of the law is not as good as you think it is.

    emptycyb1
    And in my opinion, it would further more be deplorable to sell and accept money from from Nazis purchasing nazi paraphernalia and a big fuck to society and decency.


    Exactly. It's your opinion. You're not a businessman. You let morals, set by your surroundings, guide your actions. I don't. Decency is defined differently from person to person. My and your definitions are obviously polar opposite.

    emptycyb1
    Oh, and yeah, I'm pretty sure France and Germany are some of the biggest markets for discogs.


    You're sure are you? Like you were sure about the law you half-assedly quoted earlier? If you're going to throw statistics out, or try and render your personal understanding of laws, you need to fact check first. The top market on discogs is the U.S. at 2,215,778. Then the U.K. at 1,337,294. Germany and France COMBINED don't even meet the U.K., let alone the top market. So yes, it's still a dumb business decision in my opinion.

    EDIT: The numbers above are for the added releases database wide. Regardless, as for the numbers for items being SOLD: The U.S. is still atop the list with 6,408,638 and the U.K. is still second with 5,794,493. Germany is 3rd, but France is even below Italy and Netherlands. My above end statement holds true.
  • Austin_Osman_Hoffman 7 months ago

    emptycyb1
    Morals indeed should always matter in business


    Morality only matters in business when it affects sales. Business is only interested in profit.
  • emptycyb1 7 months ago

    irionman
    "Nowhere did I say it was illigal to sell any kind of music."

    Yeah, looks like you did. You claimed being the middle man in a sale like that would be illegal. You went on to argue that.


    Nope, I nowhere said it would be illegal for you, obviously, keep spining.

    irionman
    You're sure are you? Like you were sure about the law you half-assedly quoted earlier? If you're going to throw statistics out, or try and render your personal understanding of laws, you need to fact check first. The top market on discogs is the U.S. at 2,215,778. Then the U.K. at 1,337,294. Germany and France COMBINED don't even meet the U.K., let alone the top market. So yes, it's still a dumb business decision in my opinion.


    HAHAHAHAHAHA! Yeah,right, as if I claimed those two were the biggest markets anywhere. I just said those were amongst the biggest ones, which you just confirmed. What business woul alienate the third, fourth and sixth market? (I don't know the laws in Italy or the UK about selling nazi items...). In what world do you live where those are minor? But it's sad you went through all this research to confirm my point, and still manage to misunderstand your own research.

    Austin_Osman_Hoffman
    Morality only matters in business when it affects sales. Business is only interested in profit.


    As Business deals with humans and humans with emotions, this will therefore indeed always matter. Image is as crucial as notoriety, as anyone in advertising would tell you.
  • emptycyb1 7 months ago

    irionman
    Yup. If I sold something, all I want is to get paid for it. That's called business. If the person pays me with money that he had robbed a bank with, I'm not liable for that, he is. If I had known he had robbed a bank and then proceeded to receive the funds regardless of that knowledge, then that's concealment. Your understanding of the law is not as good as you think it is.


    Eh... where did you learn to read?

    "But you do know that if you purchase or sell a stolen item you are a criminal, right?"

    I never said anything about stolen money but stolen items, which is concealment. If you keep changing what I wrote to attack it, there really is no point in discussing,

    irionman
    Exactly. It's your opinion. You're not a businessman. You let morals, set by your surroundings, guide your actions. I don't. Decency is defined differently from person to person. My and your definitions are obviously polar opposite.


    Exactly, this is my opinion, but more importantly, it also is the law in many places in the world, which you seem to not care about.
    And yes, you can decide to have your own custom definition of decency, but decency is decency, it's only defined by the morals of the society you live in, not business or personnality.
  • Austin_Osman_Hoffman 7 months ago

    emptycyb1
    As Business deals with humans and humans with emotions, this will therefore indeed always matter. Image is as crucial as notoriety, as anyone in advertising would tell you.


    Business is about maximising profits for shareholders and morality doesn't come into it. The closest you get is a 'moral' decision being made is when a judgement has been taken that it will harm profits not to make that decision. Examples of businesses taking a moral stand when it will harm profits are rare to non-existent. To imagine anything else is incredibly naïve and not reflected in the real world. That is how it should be, unless you want CEOs to be your moral guardians and act as your conscience. I would rather make those decisions myself.
  • emptycyb1 7 months ago

    I think you're talking about capitalism, an economical doctrine, not busicness per se. But anyways that(s not even the topic at hand here, weren't we trying to explain or find out reasons why Discogs wouldn't let us sell cerain items because of their offensive nature to some, and in my opinion the lawfull implications of said sales?
    There's all kinds of business, and you're talking about the least common one, the one that involves shareholders. And within the ones that do, we're going back in this circle, which is that Discogs' business have other implications than just making all money possible. Hell, you explained yourself that Discogs has a very unique relationship with its users that grants a certain ethic path!
  • meevan 7 months ago

    meevan edited 7 months ago
    Austin_Osman_Hoffman
    Examples of businesses taking a moral stand when it will harm profits are rare to non-existent.

    Actually there are quite a few examples of businesses taking a moral stand. Just recently in North Carolina, a law was passed that would make it legal to discriminate against certain segments of society, many businesses changed plans of expanding in that state as well as the NCAA basketball tournament not playing in the state. There are many others just from this one example. When Indiana recently passed a law that would allow people to discriminate for religious reasons, the NFL said it would take action against the state through boycotts and others means. Yes businesses are created to generate a profit. That does not mean they have to cheat and take advantage of people. For instance the recent cases of pharmaceutical companies raising prices in some instances by 2600% when nothing changed in how much it cost to manufacture. That is taking advantage of people who have no other option and is despicable. Most businesses operate knowing they are part of a community and want to do right by their customers but some of these huge corporations are just heartless scavengers picking the flesh from the bones of society. Truly successful enterprises become a part of the community in a mutually beneficial way that sustains them and the people in serves.
  • irionman 7 months ago

    emptycyb1
    Nope, I nowhere said it would be illegal for you, obviously, keep spining.


    You don't understand the concept of inferred speech. Obviously.

    emptycyb1
    What business woul alienate the third, fourth and sixth market?


    The business that wouldn't want to alienate the top two? Ever think about that one? Nope.

    emptycyb1
    As Business deals with humans and humans with emotions, this will therefore indeed always matter. Image is as crucial as notoriety, as anyone in advertising would tell you.


    You have literally zero knowledge of business, and it's extraordinarily obvious with your ignorant statement.

    emptycyb1
    it also is the law in many places in the world, which you seem to not care about.


    No shit. I have said multiple times that I don't care if it's law somewhere else. I care about where I am, not where I am not. It's not illegal for me to possess nor sell these items, so why should I care if someone in Germany can? It affects me in no way whatsoever.

    emptycyb1
    And yes, you can decide to have your own custom definition of decency


    If you think that decency is something uniformly followed, you're a lot more ignorant than I had originally thought.

    emptycyb1
    but decency is decency, it's only defined by the morals of the society you live in, not business or personnality.


    Wrong again. Big surprise. Decency is an individual trait and it varies from person to person. Societal influences might dictate a small portion of it, but overall, the individual decides what is decent and what is not. If what you said were true, we wouldn't be having this conversation now would we?
  • emptycyb1 7 months ago

    irionman
    If what you said were true, we wouldn't be having this conversation now would we?


    Yeah yeah yeah, I'm the ignroant one and you're the master businessman, hahaha. How nice it must be to live in a post-fact bubble :D I guess in your world, the US economy is going down under Obama...

    irionman
    You don't understand the concept of inferred speech. Obviously.


    Now now boy, who is projecting? hahaha! Priceless... I wrote what I wrote, not what you think it meant in your paranoid mind.

    irionman
    The business that wouldn't want to alienate the top two? Ever think about that one? Nope.


    What? How does not selling nazi items in order to not face trouble with the french, german and Netherland markets alienate, the US and UK ones? You mean that the bulk of its customers would fight for the right of nazi afficionados enablers? Wow, that is funny.

    irionman
    Wrong again. Big surprise. Decency is an individual trait and it varies from person to person. Societal influences might dictate a small portion of it, but overall


    Go check again your dictionnary, it is literrally defined by society. But I'm not surprised you have a custom definition of that as well. It's therefore no use discussing with you as you ignore basic rhetorics and rules of discussion when you keep answering to point I didn't make and ignore reality, done here, and activate the ignore user, you can keep spinning and deflecating in peace ;)
  • irionman 7 months ago

    emptycyb1
    Yeah yeah yeah, I'm the ignroant one and you're the master businessman, hahaha. How nice it must be to live in a post-fact bubble :D I guess in your world, the US economy is going down under Obama...


    Well it was my major, and given my current stance in life, I'd say it worked out pretty damn well. As for Obama and the economy, it wasn't going up that's for sure. More people actually left the job market. Meaning they just quit, stopped looking for jobs, went home etc... You won't believe that so go look it up.

    emptycyb1
    Now now boy, who is projecting? hahaha! Priceless... I wrote what I wrote, not what you think it meant in your paranoid mind.


    Projecting? I never said you were projecting, I said you were using inferred speech. I'm not hiding the fact that I think you're an idiot. You're just confirming my past statements.

    emptycyb1
    What? How does not selling nazi items in order to not face trouble with the french, german and Netherland markets alienate, the US and UK ones? You mean that the bulk of its customers would fight for the right of nazi afficionados enablers? Wow, that is funny.


    You keep thinking it's not being sold in order to avoid some kind of "trouble" with those countries. There is no "trouble" involved. The only issue would be for the buyer, and that's it. There is a huge niche market for NS material, and that includes the music and the memorabilia. Denying two major markets that niche is stupid. If the market is illegal in a country, you can easily code the website to make that material off limits for those users. OR, they could have used common sense and let the people who live in those countries follow their laws as they see fit.

    emptycyb1
    Go check again your dictionnary, it is literrally defined by society. But I'm not surprised you have a custom definition of that as well. It's therefore no use discussing with you as you ignore basic rhetorics and rules of discussion when you keep answering to point I didn't make and ignore reality, done here, and activate the ignore user, you can keep spinning and deflecating in peace ;)


    Why don't you start checking your dictionary more? Your spelling errors are childlike, just like your views on business. However, to entertain the child here, Decency: behavior that conforms to accepted standards of morality or respectability. I see no mention of "society" in that definition. Go and ignore the topic, or myself, if you want. That will not change the fact that you are wrong.
  • JRyall 7 months ago

  • airports 7 months ago

    ...and who are " accepted standards" defined by?
  • Sombunya 7 months ago

    Sombunya edited 7 months ago
    emptycyb1
    I guess in your world, the US economy is going down under Obama...


    In the real world It is. Now you're stepping out into a political discussion.

    I've been following this little shit-storm for a while now and have avoided stepping into it but if I had to take a side I'd be on the "don't define morality for me" side.

    I own many items restricted for sale here. Hope to buy more.
  • sorenfissure 7 months ago

    Discogs itself a very profitable business as is the internet your using as is the device your using to engage in this conversation, if you hate the evil of "business" put your money where your mouth is and go for a jog or something....oh and do it barefoot so as not to support more big business.
  • musicollect 7 months ago

    I try to avoid "services" such as Discogs, eBay, etc and sell my stuff from my own website. Especially since they increasingly wear away at your profits with their increasing fees.
  • rinkrat 7 months ago

    It's not ok to sell Screwdriver records, but posting por-ISIS videos in the chat room is cool.
  • musiclraider 7 months ago

    Sombunya
    I believe that after Discogs was purchased by "Zink Media" the policy discussed here, as well as other things, came into play.


    When I read your post it intrigued me. But upon investigation it seems that Zink Media is a private company owned by Kevin Lewandowski, who started Discogs.
    Are you sure Discogs was bought? Even so, being bought by the person who started it is hardly likely to result in a great change in policies.
  • musiclraider 7 months ago

    rinkrat
    They block this but allow Isis videos lol.


    rinkrat
    It's not ok to sell Screwdriver records, but posting por-ISIS videos in the chat room is cool.


    Where are the ISIS videos on Discogs?
    Where is the Chat Room?

    The only videos that I know of are on You Tube and accessible only via a link that someone has posted here.
    There are Groups but not chat rooms. Chat rooms are where the 'chat' is constantly flowing and quickly goes out of sight/date. Not messages left in a group topic section for a long time/ever for later perusal / response.
  • Austin_Osman_Hoffman 7 months ago

    rinkrat
    It's not ok to sell Screwdriver records, but posting por-ISIS videos in the chat room is cool.


    Where are these pro-ISIS videos? Where are even any pro-ISIS opinions in the chat forum? I can tell you now, they're not there. Don't spread shit like this if it isn't true.
  • marcvelez 7 months ago

    So many people in public functions say or write, "i made the / a moral and / or the / an ethical decision", or similar, assuming that the words moral & ethical are already defined and understood as "good"...
    Which is absolutely not the case!
    The meaning of both words are defined by observing the user's behaviour and actions.
    Morality and ethics are hollow vessels, like scientific theories, they can be applied.by anyone for anything
    Including emperor's new clothes (fashioniztaz, jumping the queu opiniadoz), rallying polticians, ambitious journalists, genocidal dictators and what have you..
  • musiclraider 7 months ago

    marcvelez
    ethics are hollow vessels, like scientific theories, they can be applied.by anyone for anything


    Interesting consideration.
    It is true that ethics are in the eye of the beholder.
    However, living to ethical decisions does indicate that the person wants to living, considering the wider impact of their actions. Whether they achieve this is, as you suggest, open to debate.
    I am fortunate, living in the 'West' (west of what?) that I can choose when making purchases or other significant life decisions, whilst people in poorer countries do not have this luxury.
    In order to help make these decisions I have in the past used this website to help me:
    http://www.ethicalconsumer.org/
    Probably a bit middle class and pompous, but better than not giving a shit.
  • Sombunya 7 months ago

    musiclraider
    Sombunya
    I believe that after Discogs was purchased by "Zink Media" the policy discussed here, as well as other things, came into play.

    When I read your post it intrigued me. But upon investigation it seems that Zink Media is a private company owned by Kevin Lewandowski, who started Discogs.
    Are you sure Discogs was bought? Even so, being bought by the person who started it is hardly likely to result in a great change in policies.


    When I started here 13 years ago it seemed like it was just all teo and nik. I also naively assumed that teo may have sold this place when it grew large and profitable (which is what I would have done) but I may very well be wrong. It also seemed much looser and more liberal back then than it is now.
  • musiclraider 7 months ago

    Sombunya
    It also seemed much looser and more liberal back then than it is now.


    Yep, I've been a member since 2005 and agree it has changed dramatically.
    Inevitable really, but I am still amazed that they continue to allow the sale of bootlegs, great stuff.
    I wonder if/when 'Zink' will sell out to a big multinational, as the site must be worth millions if not billions now.
    If it does, you will see much more dramatic changes happen very fast.
  • Sombunya 7 months ago

    musiclraider
    I wonder if/when 'Zink' will sell out to a big multinational, as the site must be worth millions if not billions now.
    If it does, you will see much more dramatic changes happen very fast.

    I can hardly wait (sarcasm intended)

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