• Sin-e-ad 14 days ago

    Sin-e-ad edited 14 days ago
    After these wonderful discussions we’ve been having I’ve been thinking about something I’ve been thinking about for years…..Depressed 90’s djs

    I’m sure it can’t only be me who picked up that there seemed to be lots of casualties in the DJ world regarding what seems to me like mass 90’s DJ depression and 1999 and 2000 seem to be key years in this phenomenon, to many times I’ve read articles where the Selling of ALL records from the so called ‘hey day’ 90’s is sooo uncannily common.

    I recently read a loftgroover article, a fairly new one which was mainly about his Drum n Bass come back, anyway he mentions how he got so fed up that he sold all his records, he says he was even waking up in a morning surrounded by records….. I think he meant literally ha

    I don’t want to say lofty isn’t telling whole truth but let’s think, can anyone from the UK remember from literally early 1999 that telling anyone you like hardcore was like saying a dirty word, it was not cool,
    I’ve been hardcore since 1994 and always proudly said if anyone has ever ever ever asked “what music you into” I’d say always say hardcore,
    I started secondary school in 1993 and the music of that time was rave/hardcore, by 1996 it was happy hardcore/jungle by 1997 it changed again it was drum and bass/hard trance…. Happy hardcore had already become to cheese by late 1998 the music of the time was speed garage, I can remember leaving school and people would take piss cus I liked ‘hardcore’ it was “old and cheesy” people would mock Mc’s “cheesy quaver hardcore raver” or something.

    Wasn’t it just that your Loftgroovers and DJ freaks just didn’t have a job anymore? It seems that way to me, people talk of the 90’s in such high regard as do I, but I remember when being into hardcore was the un coolest thing in the world, literally the scum of the pile, tbh I think we still are :( good job we’re hardcore init haha x
  • traffic_cone 13 days ago

    There was a shift at the end of the 90s music wise, it is notable that Dutch hardcore and UK happy were at their lowest then, with styles like hard house, big room trance and garage taking their place.

    I think that was probably a catalyst for some people to readjust. Especially people who had started out in the rave scene as enthusiastic youngsters with no thought of it being a career, that must have been a sign for many to think of new horizons...

    And also in retrospect it was the end times for people making reliable money from record sales too!

    But to be honest, in retrospect the fact hardcore was uncool was part of what made it a great scene. Too weird to be commercial, too over the top to be cool...means it attracted an eclectic mix of fun weirdos. Certainly introduced me to a lot of people I doubt I'd have met otherwise.

    And especially as a socially awkward weirdo it was nice to have a space where being cool was never really that much of a concern, and weirdness was tolerated (but not required).

    I certainly knew happy hardcore had become shit when the parties were full of people who seemed...normal.
  • glitchtrauma 10 days ago

    erm depends what you mean.

    hhc (the london/essex/southern variety) mostly dead by end of 95, Dutch gabber also by around end of '97, beginning of 98.

    This stuff about lacking credibility is fine to a degree, and I like a lot of music that doesn't exactly rank high on the credibility scale, but eventually both producers and audiences inevitably end up gravitating to what they perceive to be a credible sound. Even in 96 with the trancecore/freeform sound in happy hardcore. That stuff tried to take itself seriously, even if we wouldn't see it as that today. Then with the Dutch gabber, the Enzyme sound on one hand, then Promo's third movement sound. As for my personal taste, I like it when the credibility angle completely goes weird/avant-garde. Either you should be completely populist or completely weird, is a mantra I stick to. So all that early breakcore from Ambush, mouse/no-name, Rage Reset, sodom, cavage, Somatic responses, Praxis, uncivilised world, etc, etc... Not into any of that indimion sound that some people rate on this forum, to me it seems to be stuck in this middle, funnily enough a bit like the middlebrow nature of progressive house, too inhibited by hardcore standards. Which might be weird to say but hey.

    The best thing about the UK breakbeat music of 91-93 was that it was completely populist and completely weird simultaneously. I don't think any of the latter developments in hardcore/jungle/techno could replicate that insanity. Which was inevitable really as even the splits of 93-94 themselves were a form of professionalisation and standardisation.
  • glitchtrauma 10 days ago

    I mean compare the original 93 version of Red Alert and Mike Slammer - In Effect (proper dada absurdity) to the slipmatt and sy remixes which came later.
  • Sin-e-ad 10 days ago

    Sin-e-ad edited 10 days ago
    A guy I spoke many years ago once made a statement that stuck with me for life regarding the progression of hardcore through the 90’s

    “the happy stuff got to happy and the hard stuff got to hard”

    To a certain extent I totally agree, I mean let’s imagine being into loftgroover the start of 95, the loftgroover of early 96 is incomparable, totally night and day….. speed wise at least.
    People signed up for one genre and within months in some cases they often got a totally different one.

    Happy hardcore the end of 95 compared to that of the end of 97, night and day to my ears…. I could go on.
  • johnbennett 10 days ago

  • johnbennett 10 days ago

    johnbennett edited 10 days ago
    .................
  • Sin-e-ad 10 days ago

    johnbennett
    Sin-e-adWasn’t it just that your Loftgroovers and DJ freaks just didn’t have a job anymore?

    ???


    Ahhh Dear Mr Bennet, responsible for abduction ep, finest piece of vinyl on gods given earth.

    You sold all your records I think I remember you saying ?? You said you didn’t think anybody was bothered about the records you’d made and stuff, this was years ago.

    I can remember everyone telling you that you were the bees knees and much loved pioneer and you genuinely seemed shocked. You are bees knees and much loved pioneer btw just to reaffirm !
  • johnbennett 10 days ago

    johnbennett edited 10 days ago
    ....................................
  • Sin-e-ad 10 days ago

    glitchtrauma
    erm depends what you mean.

    hhc (the london/essex/southern variety) mostly dead by end of 95, Dutch gabber also by around end of '97, beginning of 98.

    This stuff about lacking credibility is fine to a degree, and I like a lot of music that doesn't exactly rank high on the credibility scale, but eventually both producers and audiences inevitably end up gravitating to what they perceive to be a credible sound. Even in 96 with the trancecore/freeform sound in happy hardcore. That stuff tried to take itself seriously, even if we wouldn't see it as that today. Then with the Dutch gabber, the Enzyme sound on one hand, then Promo's third movement sound. As for my personal taste, I like it when the credibility angle completely goes weird/avant-garde. Either you should be completely populist or completely weird, is a mantra I stick to. So all that early breakcore from Ambush, mouse/no-name, Rage Reset, sodom, cavage, Somatic responses, Praxis, uncivilised world, etc, etc... Not into any of that indimion sound that some people rate on this forum, to me it seems to be stuck in this middle, funnily enough a bit like the middlebrow nature of progressive house, too inhibited by hardcore standards. Which might be weird to say but hey.

    The best thing about the UK breakbeat music of 91-93 was that it was completely populist and completely weird simultaneously. I don't think any of the latter developments in hardcore/jungle/techno could replicate that insanity. Which was inevitable really as even the splits of 93-94 themselves were a form of professionalisation and standardisation.


    Scott brown having a go at credibility here, dreams……

    https://www.discogs.com/master/16017-Scott-Brown-A-New-Feeling
  • traffic_cone 9 days ago

    glitchtrauma
    hhc (the london/essex/southern variety) mostly dead by end of 95


    no it wasn't.

    glitchtrauma
    I mean compare the original 93 version of Red Alert and Mike Slammer - In Effect (proper dada absurdity) to the slipmatt and sy remixes which came later.


    i don't know if this is the best example to support your point - the remixes are a bit more streamlined but most of the elements are basically the same...

    glitchtrauma
    eventually both producers and audiences inevitably end up gravitating to what they perceive to be a credible sound. Even in 96 with the trancecore/freeform sound in happy hardcore. That stuff tried to take itself seriously, even if we wouldn't see it as that today.


    the people who wanted credibility were the more mainstream guys - first the attempt to rebrand the style as "fourbeat", and then by 97 the likes of Force & Styles, Slipmatt etc, softening the style, shifting to original vocals, appearing in mainstream dance music magazines.

    Whereas trancecore was almost a reaction to that - they weren't frustrated at hardcore not being respectable, more about having to stick to the same rigid formula. Even the fact they resisted the initial "trancecore" name was in the same spirit (although to be honest calling it "freeform" probably didn't help it much!)

    And by the way...

    glitchtrauma
    So all that early breakcore from Ambush, mouse/no-name, Rage Reset, sodom, cavage, Somatic responses, Praxis, uncivilised world, etc, etc...


    All music that took itself exponentially more seriously than anything else we are talking about here! I mean I remember one of the people in that scene having a manifesto about why listening to noisy music was a necessary part in preparing your mind for cultural revolution.

    And as much as I like a fair bit of that stuff - I do think breakcore got a lot better once it grew beyond that and embraced a much wider range of influence (case in point being Distort/Addict). I suspect that sticking to an entirely "weird" approach would in practise have been producers sticking to the same original ideas, insisting it was still cutting edge and experimental without realising they were repeating the same experiments.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not here to argue that your tastes are wrong :D But this is why I like hardcore not being cool enough for underground credibility - you have the freedom of not having to be only one thing.
  • traffic_cone 9 days ago

    Sin-e-ad
    Ahhh Dear Mr Bennet, responsible for abduction ep, finest piece of vinyl on gods given earth.


    wait...this is DJMrE isn't it?
  • glitchtrauma 9 days ago

    traffic_cone

    no it wasn't.



    The breakbeats over the four-four? sure, there were outliers, but the london happy hardcore had lost its identity and succumbed to the northern/scottish/dutch sound. Even the stuff Slipmatt was playing in 96-97 sounded more like fast eurodance than happy breakbeat. Dream FM also over by mid 97, I remember listening to one of their last shows on mixcloud a couple of years ago where most of the callers were ripping the piss out of the direction of where hhc had gone, including the djs, fiyaz and swift (maybe?) Someone even said it's all so 'gay techno now' which aside from the homophobia kind of made me laugh, given they contrasted it to dnb, which was going through it's most brutalist techno phase then!

    traffic_cone

    i don't know if this is the best example to support your point - the remixes are a bit more streamlined but most of the elements are basically the same...



    It's that rushy hoover that particularly gets me. Was listening to a Top Buzz edge tape whilst typing out that comment where the breakbeats get cut up. But fair point. A better exampkle would be SMF - Guillotine (psychotic mix) or even SMF - Rush Stimulator. Bizzy B and technochild as well.

    traffic_cone


    Whereas trancecore was almost a reaction to that - they weren't frustrated at hardcore not being respectable, more about having to stick to the same rigid formula. Even the fact they resisted the initial "trancecore" name was in the same spirit (although to be honest calling it "freeform" probably didn't help it much!)



    I don't think these approaches are as mutually exclusive as you might be making out here. Again I remember reading an old Bunter interview ages ago about how hhc was getting stagnant and they were 'hell bent on making something serious.' Granted Bunter isn't the first or last word on the topic but I think there can be different angles towards credibility, not everything has to be aiming for mainstream approval. A lot of the ultra deep techno in the mid-late 00s from the likes of Dozzy, Prologue etc was a credible reaction to beatport mnml. Same with the whole equinox/inperspective/fanu, subtle audio lineage in post-97 jungle dnb. About as far from magazine approval you can get, but imo at least, a sound with longevity.

    traffic_cone

    And as much as I like a fair bit of that stuff - I do think breakcore got a lot better once it grew beyond that and embraced a much wider range of influence (case in point being Distort/Addict). I suspect that sticking to an entirely "weird" approach would in practise have been producers sticking to the same original ideas, insisting it was still cutting edge and experimental without realising they were repeating the same experiments.



    No, fair enough. I do think that after a certain point there is the danger of what kids call meme music. Which in principle I'm not against, but when taking a more holistic approach to my taste I like music that won't date quickly. Although having said that a lot of the 92-93 music I like is dated in its own charming way. I think a lot of that again is to do with the fact that people genuinely had no idea what they were doing, even when taking the piss.

    traffic_cone

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not here to argue that your tastes are wrong :D But this is why I like hardcore not being cool enough for underground credibility - you have the freedom of not having to be only one thing.


    For sure. Though I think there are crossed wires here. I think the idea of credibility I have in mind is more internal to these scenes than external to them.
  • Sin-e-ad 9 days ago

    Sin-e-ad edited 9 days ago
    traffic_cone
    Sin-e-adAhhh Dear Mr Bennet, responsible for abduction ep, finest piece of vinyl on gods given earth.

    wait...this is DJMrE isn't it?


    Sinead Bridges add me to Facebook, FaceTime me,

    I’ll add you if you like?

    Kevousmodius and Simon underground are my friends they will vouch for me
  • traffic_cone 9 days ago

    glitchtrauma
    I don't think these approaches are as mutually exclusive as you might be making out here. Again I remember reading an old Bunter interview ages ago about how hhc was getting stagnant and they were 'hell bent on making something serious.' Granted Bunter isn't the first or last word on the topic but I think there can be different angles towards credibility, not everything has to be aiming for mainstream approval.


    I get what you mean there, definitely. Maybe the distinction I should make is - I think the mainstream guys wanted credibility for its own sake, for their music to be respected like other styles. Whereas freeform was more about making more serious music for its own sake - being bored with the happy formula and feeling it could be so much more. To that end it's notable that one of the first labels releasing anything in that vein was JAL, who were also trying to bring back the breakbeats.

    i do think that's what makes that first wave of freeform so great - it doesn't necessarily fall into some of the traps that knowingly "respectable" serious music does.

    There is an interesting article about it in one of the magazines of the time from 95-ish which talks to a few of the big artists and identifies a split even then between people getting tired of the formula (Luna C) and people like Vibes who wanted to keep it accessible and fun..

    glitchtrauma
    the london happy hardcore had lost its identity and succumbed to the northern/scottish/dutch sound.


    Was happy hardcore ever that much of a London thing? I know London had a scene for it, but most of the big labels were from elsewhere, as far as I can think...and to be honest, it was more the South Coast which changed the sound going into 1996. Largely courtesy of Hixxy.

    I will say in retrospect - it's interesting to note how the prices of a lot of happy hardcore from the second half of the 90s is creeping up in price...whereas a lot of drum & bass from the same time remains super cheap.

    glitchtrauma
    No, fair enough. I do think that after a certain point there is the danger of what kids call meme music.


    Oh yeah. I always thought the distinction with that stuff was: the music I love might not necessarily take itself too seriously, but it was still made with serious intent. It wasn't deliberately stupid.

    Even with happy hardcore the charm is the certain innocent sincerity of the cheesy stuff. Whereas Wrong Music sampling cheesy pop feels too knowing and ironic.

    I am aware that's probably an age thing to an extent - for a lot of my friends who are younger (and grew up more with internet culture), the distinction between taking the piss and sincerity is more blurry!
  • traffic_cone 9 days ago

    Sin-e-ad
    Sinead Bridges add me to Facebook, FaceTime me,

    I’ll add you if you like?


    It was a question, not an accusation! I was just wondering. You obviously have very similar tastes (with that track in particular).
  • glitchtrauma 9 days ago

    glitchtrauma edited 9 days ago
    traffic_cone

    Was happy hardcore ever that much of a London thing? I know London had a scene for it, but most of the big labels were from elsewhere, as far as I can think...and to be honest, it was more the South Coast which changed the sound going into 1996. Largely courtesy of Hixxy.



    you're right, it wasn't much of a London thing. So far as I can make out, the splits internal to london mainly happened between jungle and techno (hardcore and purist.) and I kind of get why it wasn't massively a london thing, Slipmatt basically wrote the template for the 92-will-never-die at the faster tempo with the smd series. Whereas jungle was going in all sorts of directions, as was the ambient/experimental techno end of things, and then later praxis, zero tolerance, etc.. Some of the older shirts and shoes crowd also made a pivot to US garage around 93-94, which obviously ended up becoming 2step later on. Again in that dream fm show one of the djs was slightly baffled at a caller, trying to explain that, 'like no house and garage aren't the same thing', except for a lot of London crowds they would be, what they might have called 'uplifting house' is just eurohouse/dance pop to us.

    traffic_cone


    I will say in retrospect - it's interesting to note how the prices of a lot of happy hardcore from the second half of the 90s is creeping up in price...whereas a lot of drum & bass from the same time remains super cheap.



    Well a lot of dnb from that era was quite bad. Just as cheesy as hhc, if not more. I'm thinking of the Joker end of things. Then the ultimate shite tune - shy fx - Wolf. Crap, stinking pile of crap. But conversely that is the era when reinforced hits its peak for me, all that Arcon II, Sonar Circle, G-Force and Seiji stuff, quite weird and head fucky but still sounds like the future. Also for me, taking the breakbeat science into a more brutalist, machinic form. But I also do like quite a bit of the garage and broken beats stuff from that era. Then the whole south london electro of controlled weirdness, Weatherall/radioactive man. which is really not too far away from techstep. But maybe this is just the internet geek in me talking. we have access to practically everything now...

    I think (I could be wrong) but that the soul/funk/electro boogie influences are more prominent in the DNA/influence of London ravers compared to certain cities up North and Scotland. Conversely a lot of Italo disco and hi nrg doesn't have that same reference point to me. I enjoy it musically but I don't really have the roadmap revealed to me when I'm listening to it if that makes sense? I.E: what influences you hear when listening. Like it totally makes sense to me that Loftgroover also played UK garage, i can follow the continuum, as it were.
  • glitchtrauma 9 days ago

    Funny thing about Vibes is in a way he wasn't as populist as he makes himself out to be. Although maybe that was Wishdokta's production skills. But there's always been more of an American house influence there.
  • Sin-e-ad 9 days ago

    traffic_cone
    Sin-e-adSinead Bridges add me to Facebook, FaceTime me,

    I’ll add you if you like?

    It was a question, not an accusation! I was just wondering. You obviously have very similar tastes (with that track in particular).


    For me that record is possibly the best of the genre, In context of year of release I’m still wowed to this day, the whole record seems so advanced for what was available in 1995, it’s my favourite record regardless of genre for that year.
    Actually I listened to Never been to Brooklyn earlier and I genuinely got goosebumps, that’s a Supa dupa track!
    There’s so many records that if they were made just one year later I wouldn’t like them half as much, I think that is one of them.

    One record that blows my mind is no name strike ep, she made some of those in 1995, I always think “omg imagine if they would of been released in 95” that would of been as I say just mind blowing.

    If the no name strike had of been released earlier it would of knocked dj freak off the top spot.
  • glitchtrauma 9 days ago

    yeah, that strike ep is incredible. super lysergic, technological insanity. probably one of the most genuinely psychedelic things I have ever heard. A lot of music that advertises itself as capital P psychedelic can be underwhelming but this really goes there.
  • Sin-e-ad 9 days ago

    glitchtrauma
    yeah, that strike ep is incredible. super lysergic, technological insanity. probably one of the most genuinely psychedelic things I have ever heard. A lot of music that advertises itself as capital P psychedelic can be underwhelming but this really goes there.


    Have you managed to listen to the remastered affair ? I haven’t but would love to get my hands on a copy,

    I think I read, granted just one dudes opinion that some of those new re releases
    Have been mastered dodgy and don’t sound that good?
    I’m not sure if that’s a disgruntled rarity collector with a bee in there bonnet about the represses ha
  • glitchtrauma 9 days ago

    bought a copy off bandcamp, sounded fine to me. But I like loud noisy masters...
  • traffic_cone 9 days ago

    funnily enough the "split" in Scotland around 94 would probably be the more "serious" techno sound from hardcore. Maybe my favourite tape pack is Rez Event II, August 1994 - which had Lenny Dee, GTO DJ Squad, Slipmatt, Richie Hawtin, The Source and Laurent Garnier :D Mad when you compare it to Event 3 the following summer, almost entirely Scottish and Dutch hardcore (still with Lenny Dee though of course).

    And of course one of the pioneers of prog house was a Glasgow label (Limbo). (this being when that was still fun music and not the plodding tedium it came to be).

    There is for sure a big difference musically in the places with a more multicultural history (London, Bristol, Birmingham) - compared to Glasgow, Liverpool, Newcastle etc.

    Sin-e-ad
    For me that record is possibly the best of the genre, In context of year of release I’m still wowed to this day, the whole record seems so advanced for what was available in 1995, it’s my favourite record regardless of genre for that year.


    I don't know about advanced so much, it's just a lot of distortion. Quite straight forward structure wise compared to other stuff with a similar approach (I mean the first Somatics releases are the same year). Which is kinda the point of course!

    glitchtrauma
    that strike ep is incredible. super lysergic, technological insanity. probably one of the most genuinely psychedelic things I have ever heard.


    that style has taught me how much anything "psy" is not for me, when even psychedelic speedcore leaves me cold :D I do seem to very much be in the minority on this one...I love a lot of French hardcore but not that stuff, and the only Hangars records I like are the I:Gor ones. Not sure I can articulate precisely why, but certainly as far as experimental mindfuck music I lean much more towards breakcore. Like Xanopticon for example, or the early Abelcain / Davros stuff on Low Res.

    to be honest though I'm quite glad I don't like that style everytime I see how much it costs. Although I will say that Slaves Of Devil Our Master is a fantastic name :D
  • glitchtrauma 9 days ago

    ha fair enough. I can't stand "psytrance" in fact some of my friends who are playing it amongst faster techno have been getting right bollockings from me. So much so that I've been telling my mates I'd rather they play 00s mainstream electro house (lol.)

    I remember uncle Dugs interviewing a Scottish dj. DJ Kid. Apparently he got bottled off for playing jungle/darkside in 93! mental!
  • fly_free 9 days ago

    glitchtrauma
    I can't stand "psytrance" in fact some of my friends who are playing it amongst faster techno have been getting right bollockings from me


    a conversation, everyone knows who met a fraggle:

    psy-guy: "hey you like xyz, so you might like psy-trance/goa/etc. aswell, do you?"
    me: "psy-trance/goa/etc. sucks ass!"
    psy-guy: "you just have to hear the really good tunes!"
    (shows a "really good" tune)
    Me: "Yes, that's exactly what I mean, that's utterly shit."

    trounce it is.
  • traffic_cone 8 days ago

    I can at least understand that - one of the odd quirks about music is how you can love one thing, but hate something that's almost exactly the same.

    what I hate is the psytrance equivalent of "you just don't understand it", which would be "you're just not spiritually open enough"...

    it wasn't through lack of trying either - when I was younger and going out all the time I *wanted* to like psytrance. Not just because I had a lot of friends who loved it, but - you'd go to psy squat parties and they'd be full of friendly people dancing and smiling, sometimes in surprisingly clean, well decorated venues.

    Then you'd go to techno parties, full of unsmilling Italians in black hoodies shuffling around, with k-zombies passed out on the floor and people hanging around to mug them, all with the faint aroma of heroin in the air. Certainly enough to make you wonder if you made the right choice...
  • Sin-e-ad 8 days ago

    traffic_cone
    I can at least understand that - one of the odd quirks about music is how you can love one thing, but hate something that's almost exactly the same.

    what I hate is the psytrance equivalent of "you just don't understand it", which would be "you're just not spiritually open enough"...

    it wasn't through lack of trying either - when I was younger and going out all the time I *wanted* to like psytrance. Not just because I had a lot of friends who loved it, but - you'd go to psy squat parties and they'd be full of friendly people dancing and smiling, sometimes in surprisingly clean, well decorated venues.

    Then you'd go to techno parties, full of unsmilling Italians in black hoodies shuffling around, with k-zombies passed out on the floor and people hanging around to mug them, all with the faint aroma of heroin in the air. Certainly enough to make you wonder if you made the right choice...


    The k zombies hahahaha, not sure if you follow mc bass man ? He’s always on about people on ket at raves ha

    Faint smell of heroin ahahha I spat my tea out
  • Sin-e-ad 8 days ago

    Just my 2cents on the psy-trance, I went on a course for work and got chatting to a girl who was into “psy-trance”
    She told me she was listening to 4d psy-trance on her giant headphones, she asked me to put the headphones on and have a listen, I’ve got to admit I was blown away with the 4d business, the music was so well mastered and produced, the quality of the sound was some of the best I’ve heard, it’s definitely a cool experience with the headphones on.

    Wonder if there could be 4d hardcore? I’m not sure as I don’t really understand it?
  • traffic_cone 8 days ago

    I'm not sure at what point K became so prevalent at illegal raves - i think maybe late 90s / early 00s, although it was definitely around before that. Certainly when I moved to London in 2006 it was absolutely dominant. Much more so than legal raves (who I think did catch up later). And super cheap too - you could buy it in London and sell it up north for 2 or 3 times the price. Apparently at teknivals it was a known thing to go to UK people for K.

    That has changed now - in part because they tightened the rules about people importing it from India.

    Horrible stuff in so many ways. Especially at an illegal party with no real security or health & safety (I remember one party I nearly went to, ended when someone fell down a lift shaft in the building that was being squatted)
  • traffic_cone 8 days ago

    Sin-e-ad
    She told me she was listening to 4d psy-trance on her giant headphones, she asked me to put the headphones on and have a listen, I’ve got to admit I was blown away with the 4d business, the music was so well mastered and produced, the quality of the sound was some of the best I’ve heard, it’s definitely a cool experience with the headphones on.


    I mean - it is basically designed for people on acid, which means lots of detail and layers etc. The downside of that is that you don't get the visceral element of most dance music. Having heard it on the main rig at a big psy party, you still don't really "feel" anything in your gut. Which isn't the point of it I guess.

    Whereas hearing something like jungle on a proper loud free party rig makes your whole body shake, it's like being kicked in the stomach (In a good way). Or giant industrial hardcore kicks at a huge Dutch party.

    I remember reading that one of the guys out of Leftfield realised they were going a bit far with their rig, when he couldn't see his equipment properly as his eyeballs were vibrating too much :D Not a danger with psytrance, let's say that.
  • glitchtrauma 8 days ago

    glitchtrauma edited 8 days ago
    psytrance parties are friendly, but in this quite obnoxiously middle class way though imo, superficially friendly. Not to go all class war or anything, but I do end up questioning why I'm talking to this rp wanker probably related to a war criminal at 5 AM off my gord to the shittest music. Also I like a lot of music made with lsd in mind, I.E: flashcore, 60s psychedelic rock, 70s stuff like Miles Davis. For me the problem with psytrance is that it is A) frictionless and B) relevant to that it's so diffuse and spread out.

    Whereas with say Miles Davis or Can, you have the weird stuff going on top of a groove or the funk, if you will. Or any freeform experiments are beatless/broken.In fact I did tell my friends that some of the psytrance they showed me would sound infinitely better, more like musique concrete if they got rid of that vacuumed kick with those horrid basslines.
  • glitchtrauma 8 days ago

    speaking of rezerection, was listening to this loftgroover set today, absolutely lethal!

    https://soundcloud.com/magpie303/loftgroover-rezerection-event-2-1994

    Lofty was especially good back then, 93-94 era.
  • glitchtrauma 8 days ago

    glitchtrauma
    psytrance parties are friendly, but in this quite obnoxiously middle class way though imo, superficially friendly. Not to go all class war or anything, but I do end up questioning why I'm talking to this rp wanker probably related to a war criminal at 5 AM off my gord to the shittest music. Also I like a lot of music made with lsd in mind, I.E: flashcore, 60s psychedelic rock, 70s stuff like Miles Davis. For me the problem with psytrance is that it is A) frictionless and B) relevant to that it's so diffuse and spread out.

    Whereas with say Miles Davis or Can, you have the weird stuff going on top of a groove or the funk, if you will. Or any freeform experiments are beatless/broken. In fact I did tell my friends that some of the psytrance they showed me would sound infinitely better, more like musique concrete if they got rid of that vacuumed kick with those horrid basslines.


    There's also a hardcore variety called psycore, (not the senobite kind) but internal to psytrance scenes, which I thought had potential but they use that same kickdrum with those same irritating basslines. Also I still don't know what the difference between hitech, darkpsy and psycore is. Trust the hippies to invent three different genre names for exactly the same thing!
  • HellBazZ_Davy 8 days ago

    Psytrance is essentially the same music for 2 decades now. Compare Psytrance from today with ten years ago, twenty years ago, it's the same.
    And neo-goa is stylistically the same as proper 90s Goa.

    Meanwhile, Hardcore, evolves every few years. Compare Hardcore from 93 (raw and acidic), to 96 (happy and fast), to 98 (slow, predecessor of Jumpstyle and Hardstyle), Millenium (continuing 98 newstyle, but with better kickdrums), Then in the 2010s, there was Crossbreed, then Uptempo, and the Mainstream became faster again.
    Even Frenchcore changed entirely, due to Dutch people creating a happy-variant of the French style.

    Radium once said in an interview "Hardcore is the most creative genre" I think he said it in an interview together with Al Core in Trax magazine. But recently the same sentiment was said by Armaguet Nad, in a radioshow on Radio Fg called Rave Up (on Soundcloud you can find it), he said "Hardcore has no rules."

    And I remember from back in the 90s, people were telling me hardcore, gabber was "simplistic", "inspirationless", "soulless".
    I don't think there's any type of electronic music, especially the danceable scenes, that changed as much, and birthed as much subgenres, as hardcore did.

    I find it ironic that psytrance, is so monotonous in evolution, you would expect trippy heads being far more experimental, genre wise.
    Meanwhile, in hardcore, every track has a different bassdrum.

    Now, I find techno interesting. It was quite boring in the 2000s. It was basically pop music with a beat. Then in the late 2010s, techno people went back to the 90s sounds, aesthetics, even keeping vinyl alive. Nowadays the mainstream techno stage is at every mainstream festival, and often with the harder sound, featuring 90s sounds kicks and acid sounds again.. Lots of rave hoovers are heard again. And there are some industrial guys experimenting with tempos and rhythms as well.

    Regarding the depression theme: this is also applied to musical scenes as a whole. The honeymoon phase, creativity, almost a utopian vibe, and after a few years, there is the crash after years of oversaturation, overpromotion and fried synapses. And another scene takes over. This process is well documented and written about in Simon Reynolds' masterwork "Generation ecstacy" also known as "Energy Flash", which writes about all different subgenres within the phenomenon of raves and house. Another book documenting it is the book "XTC: a biography" by the Dutchmen Zandstra and Pottjeweid. Also nowadays there are lots of Dutch books on the history of house music and even on Thunderdome, biographies of DJ's. Drokz has one, which mentions also the "underground" period after the crash and bankrupcy in the late 90s.

    The millenium era was also fun. Because In the 90s in Belgium and Netherlands, Gabber was hyped. Almost half of youths were into this. So when this popularity faded, only the real die hards remained. This gave a new sense of camarederie, and musically it allowed for more experimentation. Masters, Megarave took over from Thunderdome. And slowly, a "terror" scene grew in the Netherlands.

    Amelie Lens once mentioned in an interview (on Youtube) how lucky one is to live in the Low Countries, for electronic music. In other countries, there is barely a scene for electronic music in general. Whereas in the Low Countries, you can have every weekend lots of options in every genre.

    This was true for hardcore as well. There was even the luxury of having large gabber parties on the one hand, and underground parties where they played tekno, breakcore and the hardcore from France (Psychik Genocide, Epileptik) and UK (Deathchant-ish) on the other hand. Later, both scenes would converge, thanks to events in like in Holland Beter Kom Je Niet and P.O.R.N and I Hate Trance, and in Belgium with parties like Footworxx.
  • fly_free 8 days ago

    HellBazZ_Davy
    he said "Hardcore has no rules."

    beside all the rules it has.

    HellBazZ_Davy
    Meanwhile, in hardcore, every track has a different bassdrum.

    are you sure with that? ;)
  • traffic_cone 8 days ago

    i've noticed "no rules" usually means "anything goes! as long as it meets our many requirements for being sufficiently underground of course"

    and I would say that both techno and drum & bass have a broader scope than hardcore, just from the fact that both styles can be chilled or relaxing, in a way that hardcore can't by definition.

    more crucially - that doesn't really matter. it's not a competition.

    glitchtrauma
    psytrance parties are friendly, but in this quite obnoxiously middle class way though imo, superficially friendly.[


    surely any connection you are making with a stranger at 5 am on drugs is superficial. even if those drugs make it seem different at the time. it's still more than what you often got at techno squats (also full of middle class kids as well)

    this does go back to what i was saying about being grateful at finding a scene that wasn't considered cool...

    glitchtrauma
    I still don't know what the difference between hitech, darkpsy and psycore is. Trust the hippies to invent three different genre names for exactly the same thing!


    to be fair, that's true of anything we don't like. I guarantee someone who hates hardcore would feel the same way about its subgenres.

    glitchtrauma
    speaking of rezerection, was listening to this loftgroover set today, absolutely lethal!

    https://soundcloud.com/magpie303/loftgroover-rezerection-event-2-1994

    Lofty was especially good back then, 93-94 era.


    the sad thing about that set is - he starts with one of his own tracks, "i Am The Devil". But when it came out on vinyl - even though ihe track is actually called "Event 2 - 5 A.M. Remix" - it's a different (inferior) version.

    Also weird to think that his first two records were both engineered by artists later known for music on almost the opposite end of the spectrum - first Alex Reece (with his brother) and then Vince Watson.
  • Grindmonster 7 days ago

    In 96, my house answering machine started with that 'I am the devil' track, then a bunch of others.
    It went on for over a minute
    Few people got through it and left messages!
  • glitchtrauma 4 days ago

    traffic_cone

    surely any connection you are making with a stranger at 5 am on drugs is superficial. even if those drugs make it seem different at the time. it's still more than what you often got at techno squats (also full of middle class kids as well)



    Of course. But me and my mates used to sneer at the liberator scene (if that's what you're talking about with techno squats.)we used to call it snoozebosh 'acid tekno' with the k, the k indicating that like spiral tribe music, it had relatively little variation whatsoever, whereas the more serious hard/wonky techno, despite being less trance/crescendo orientated had more dynamics for us. This war might not make sense today because the two styles have crossed into each other, but someone who straddled that squat/serious divide was Jerome Hill (probably my favourite techno dj ever with a unique identity which couldn't be reduced to either scene.) Of course, the inverse of this is that certain varieties of serious club techno were as dull as acid tekno, (too much of one good thing is not good for you etc) think of all the Drumcode, User, Primate gear. and in fact it was funny to see some of the hard dance people playing that sort of stuff in the mid 00s when it was already outdated.

    To the credit of the psytrance boys and girls, they had a space where they could let their hair down and be honest posh wankers. Which sure in some senses is different to more punky scenes. But then again you see this dynamic exactly play out in hippy/punk. They mostly originate from the exact same middle class ideological soup, the caricatured idea of punk as this pure working class expression is a bit of a media strawman really... Jon Anderson from Yes was as working class as your John Lydons. A lot of critics wanted to disown what they were previously into, age old story...

    traffic_cone

    to be fair, that's true of anything we don't like. I guarantee someone who hates hardcore would feel the same way about its subgenres.



    Nah I think I can tell the difference between prog house and prog trance, despite not consciously enjoying it, seeking it out or listening to it. To me all that psytrance stuff has exactly the same production techniques, I think the names indicate different speeds. But when I say this to psytrance people they say one of them has more darker atmospheres, which granted I have no idea what they are referring to, but it's never been explained to me either (lol.)
  • traffic_cone 3 days ago

    traffic_cone edited 3 days ago
    I mean most music that is specifically aligned with free parties is pretty boring and samey - from the original network 23 spiral stuff right through to modern raggatek.

    however, as much as I dislike psytrance as music, i still know a lot of people who love it. certainly some who came to it from happy hardcore for one, i think because there are common elements in the vibe... and i've been to psy parties enough to know that they also have a much broader crowd than the stereotype of pretentious posh kids.

    I do think a lot of the stereotypes come from squat people who are just deeply suspicious of anything that seems too positive or good natured. I remember my old flatmate, who was deep in the squat scene saying at one point that he felt he had to choose between tekno and psy. but all the "pressure" to choose was entirely coming from the tekno side.

    i mean in my life i have met one person who is now in prison for murder. guess what scene I met that guy through :D
  • HellBazZ_Davy 3 days ago

    In the Low Countries, there too is this feud between psy and tek.
    And yet, there is always the overlap between the scenes. You eventually see a lot of the same faces at both rivalling music scenes. :D
  • glitchtrauma 3 days ago

    traffic_cone

    however, as much as I dislike psytrance as music, i still know a lot of people who love it. certainly some who came to it from happy hardcore for one, i think because there are common elements in the vibe... and i've been to psy parties enough to know that they also have a much broader crowd than the stereotype of pretentious posh kids.

    I do think a lot of the stereotypes come from squat people who are just deeply suspicious of anything that seems too positive or good natured. I remember my old flatmate, who was deep in the squat scene saying at one point that he felt he had to choose between tekno and psy. but all the "pressure" to choose was entirely coming from the tekno side.



    Nah, that's fair enough. Unfortunately in my personal experience the psy people I have met have fulfilled that stereotype to vbarying degrees, but then again i have never gone to psy parties voluntarily. So that is probably all clowded in my memory with me hating those dotted 8/16th note off beat basslines which sound like oompa loompas in charlie and the chocolate factory. I don't mind that when it's done with a roland juno alpha like in some 90s happy and gabba where it sounds manic but...

    I probably like a lot of music that would be considered unpardonable by squat people on both sides of the divide though, E.G: ambient jungle, 90s vocal house screamers, Timbaland/missy elliot etc.

    Indeed I think most free party music is very samey and repetitive, but have you heard the Dutch Mononom stuff? Like early Jeff Mills on lsd. these looping entrancing grooves which just go on for ever, and ever...

    People recommend me French freetekno when I try to look for similar stuff but it just doesn't cut it, way too tinnie and without enough meat to its chassy.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFhVu86P-6U

    Great stuff.
  • fly_free 3 days ago

    glitchtrauma
    these looping entrancing grooves which just go on for ever, and ever...

    People recommend me French freetekno when I try to look for similar stuff but it just doesn't cut it,


    maybe something by Curley, Sycomor, Jean-Marc F or Caustic Visions or Little Lonesome Astronaut and Lovecore E.P. from a slightly different corner of techno.
  • glitchtrauma 3 days ago

    glitchtrauma edited 2 days ago
    yeah, massive fan of all the cologne gear, and caustic visions.

    I tbf don't really want to be recommended much French or Dutch freetekno though, I have some friends who are really getting into that stuff and it seems to me you have to be really into going out and taking a lot of drugs on a regular basis on weekends to fall into the dissociated mind state conducive to that music. No offence to people who want to do that, but that simply isn't where my head is at the moment. I'm much more interested in that abstract meeting point between pitched down modern industrial techno, like Orphx, Ancient Methods, and halftime dnb/jungle, double timed to flashcore, etc.
  • glitchtrauma 3 days ago

    glitchtrauma edited 2 days ago
    like this Antagonist tune.

    Love this kind of stuff, it's like SPK making techstep! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fj43kjFvkMw

    Or for something less dour and gloomy.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPdKTFNm2RM

    Sam Binga & Danny Scrilla - FrolicInBrine
    https://soundcloud.com/danny-scrilla/sam-binga-danny-scrilla-frolicinbrine-cosmic-bridge

    Lots of potential for double time mixing, to transition from 90-100 to 160-180, 200 etc, pretty effortlessly.
  • fly_free 2 days ago

    fly_free edited 2 days ago
    glitchtrauma
    taking a lot of drugs on a regular basis on weekends to fall into the dissociated mind state conducive to that music. No offence to people who want to do that, but that simply isn't where my head is at the moment. I'm much more interested in that abstract meeting point...


    i like the meeting point of those haha. i can't stand general freetek and it's scene (no wonder i like No-Tek so much hehe). also shitty music stays bad with drugs.

    the last links above don't do much for me aswell tho...

    but just reminded me, that i found something funny by pure chance, a few weeks ago when sifting through releases of library music labels like KPM Music and Bruton from the 70s/80s, some are pure gold, espescially the Alan Hawkshaw tracks on this one titled "Darkside" https://youtu.be/wGbXKzGbws8?t=462 tadaa.
    this led me to a, not so serious, but possible theory about the development of techstep and darkside jungle and the role nicked samples the record shelfs of the parents of nico sykes, doc scott & co. filled with library music might've played in it :)
  • traffic_cone 2 days ago

    i used to quite enjoy some of that mentaltek stuff, largely from Stefan ZMK's mixes...the sort of thing I'd enjoy listening to now and again but never went out of my way to properly investigate. (although i did like one of Coco Bryce's recent EPs on a freetekno label, as I remember it was an odd mix of acid tek, atmospheric jungle and old Dutch hardcore!)

    but to be honest, the free party music i love the most is Mat Weasel, who somehow turns hardtek into the most ridiculously obnoxious happy hardcore. i think the fact it's basically the diametric opposite of most tek music makes me love it even more, because I can't help but imagine a bunch of white guys with dreads in black hoodies shuffling about to "Eternal Flame" at 190 bpm.

    fly_free
    nicked samples the record shelfs of the parents of nico sykes, doc scott & co. filled with library music might've played in it :)


    there's loads of that all across early 90s rave - samples from old prog rock, or synth albums like Jean Michel Jarre, Tomita, even weird bits from pop records you wouldn't expect...like the intro to "Mayday Dream" on Bonzai, uses the outro from "Ferry Cross The Mersey" by Frankie Goes To Hollywood (the "sorry I've left me card at home...").

    One of my favourites is DJ Fuck by Lownoise & Theo - apparently the atmospherics in the intro are from a promo CD for a Dutch theme park (!)

    I think this is why modern tunes in a 90s style can sound a bit underwhelming - because their influences are just other 90s rave tunes. so it gets a bit recursive.
  • fly_free 2 days ago

    fly_free edited 2 days ago
    as far as i want to answer to your tek-confession, i will not stop writing here to you, but we have different ideas of good music. i will pay some monks to sing a few psalms for you. maybe there is hope.

    but joke aside

    traffic_cone
    amples from old prog rock, or synth albums like Jean Michel Jarre, Tomita, even weird bits from pop records you wouldn't expect..


    at one of our bigger datacide/praxis records partys at the köpi squat in berlin i played in my set this bit from 1:10-1:38 of "Alucard" by Gentle Giant https://youtu.be/GQlB6bDKqjE?t=70 between "Dark Acid" by Brandon Spivey and "Trek" from Ingler. it worked quite nice for never trying it out before. fun fact: Brandon was standing behind me somewhere in the back of the stage enjoying it. ;)

    traffic_cone
    why modern tunes in a 90s style can sound a bit underwhelming - because their influences are just other 90s rave tunes.


    definitly, therefor staying always interested and keep exploring other genres and styles is important if oneself want to have fun for longer (as listener/comsumer aswell) and enrich the creative output. (after hopefully quickly learning the difference of being influenced by something versus doing the same thing someone else does, because you like it which is quite often the reality)
  • traffic_cone 2 days ago

    fly_free
    at one of our bigger datacide/praxis records partys at the köpi squat in berlin i played in my set this bit from 1:10-1:38 of "Alucard" by Gentle Giant https://youtu.be/GQlB6bDKqjE?t=70 between "Dark Acid" by Brandon Spivey and "Trek" from Ingler. it worked quite nice for never trying it out before. fun fact: Brandon was standing behind me somewhere in the back of the stage enjoying it. ;)


    I wish more DJs would use interludes like that. back in the 90s in Scotland, arguably our biggest hardcore DJ was Marc Smith. And he had a few records he would use that way: an ambient B side on Edge, a track on Rabbit City which started with a minute of jungle atmospherics (as in actual jungle), the "B side intro" from the Hate Tank EP, even Martin Luther King's "I Have A Dream" speech. Didn't always work, and he did rely on the same ones for a few years - but I'm more just surprised that I can't really think of anyone else who did similar.

    The only other one I can think of is The Music Maker, who played these odd sets consisting of a few underground hardcore tracks (without any attempt at mixing) interspersed with full tracks from Jean Michel Jarre or Vangelis records :D
  • traffic_cone 2 days ago

    fly_free
    definitly, therefor staying always interested and keep exploring other genres and styles is important if oneself want to have fun for longer (as listener/comsumer aswell) and enrich the creative output.


    i think the reason that a lot of the new breakbeat hardcore / jungle of the last few years is so good (for me) - is that a lot of it is made by people coming from a different perspective (eg Coco Bryce bringing Dutch / PCP influences) or young people who weren't around in the early 90s, for whom it's just another style (which they can then approach from a much wider perspective).

Log In You must be logged in to post.