• Staff 2.6k

    nik over 7 years ago

    nik edited over 7 years ago
    The 'beta' of the guideline changes has been running for about 7 weeks now. Some very minor alterations have been made, and I'd now like to officially announce this revision of the guidelines as complete.

    The changes are as follows:

    Overall

    Created a very short set of 'Basic Guidelines' at http://www.discogs.com/help/submission-guidelines-release.html

    Adjusted wording and moved around paragraphs and sentences to clarify and improve things.

    All the guideline paragraphs have been numbered to make referring to them easier.

    The formatting has been edited to be more consistent:

    * Guideline numbering follows a 4 section system, for example, 1.1.1.a.

    ** The 1st number is for the page
    ** 2nd number is the section
    ** 3rd number is for the paragraph
    ** 4th letter is for sub-paragraph - this is also indented

    * Every section has a named anchor that can be used to link directly to it, for example http://www.discogs.com/help/su...ml#Valid_Information - the links for these can be found at the top of each page.

    * Artist names, label names, release titles, and track titles are in italics

    * Button presses are in box brackets [ ]

    * The word 'must' is used for required methods

    * The word 'can' is used for optional methods

    * Double quotation marks " " are used for example data entry into a single field

    * Single quotation marks ' ' are used to emphasize that an instance of a word refers to the word itself rather than its associated concept.

    1. General Guidelines

    * Explained when a combined release should be entered as one Discogs release, and when it is considered two items http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/175433 http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/180116#2295124 - "List any items that were initially sold as a package (by the record company) as one release, no matter what the packaging. Packaged items that are also released individually should be entered both ways. Items where we are uncertain if they were sold as a package can be entered as separate items. Items that are obtained after the sale via a coupon or other method should be entered as individual releases."

    * Broadened the ANV guidelines (rule 6) regarding typography and punctuation to other text in general: http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/182913 - "Using Unicode symbols or characters to reflect 'one off' graphic design decisions, such as reverse letters or letter substitution, should be avoided. An exception is the "Metal umlaut", which (due to it's widespread use) is acceptable."

    * Redid pt 5 of errors + conflicting info http://www.discogs.com/help/submission-guidelines-general-rules.html#Errors_And_Conflicting_Information - the conflicting title example is already covered in a more concise way in the title guidelines http://www.discogs.com/help/submission-guidelines-release-title.html#Title - http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/183822

    * Updated HTML guidelines for strike through http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/182486#2354076 - Formatting, Unicode, and HTML Code

    * Added Format Free Text Field to the caps guidelines http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/191157

    * Unofficial Releases - removed 'suspect are maybe not' from the text (too vague), and I have moved the whole guideline from the General Guidelines Page to http://www.discogs.com/help/submission-guidelines-release-format.html#Unofficial_Releases

    2. Artist (inc ANV and joins)

    * Removed ""Lower case joins are accepted only for the abbreviations "vs." and "w/". " - http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/179331

    * Made a guideline for what the best Primary Artist Name to use is - see http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/175970

    * Do not use ANV's on unlinked credits http://www.discogs.com/disbugs/26

    * Clarified http://www.discogs.com/help/submission-guidelines-release-artist.html#Main_Artist_Credits - see http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/188988#2380050

    * Clarified Artist Naming Conventions, "The" rule - "For artist names beginning with "The", "The Artist" should be entered as "Artist, The". For example: "RZA, The". This rule only applies to the English definite article. "The" should always go at the end of the name, even with a compound artist name (that is, a single name made up of two or more names "Bird And The Bee, The"). Artist names with "The" in the middle of the name should not have the "The" moved, for example "Ian Dury And The Blockheads"."

    * Added "Please don't leave the join field empty, if there is no join used on the release, just enter a comma."

    3. Title

    * How To Interpret Artist Names As Release Titles When Listed On The Cover - "There is no limit to the number of artists that can be listed as 'Main Artist', but the release itself has to show the intention that the artists are to be taken as the main artists on the release (or to list the artists in a way that doesn't allow us to differentiate)." http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/174545 http://www.discogs.com/history?release=1361130

    * "Singles without sleeves should only list the A side as the title, unless it is a double A sided release."

    * Added sentence regarding self-titled releases http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/183321 / reorder + minor rewording of guidelines

    4. Label / Catalog Number

    * Added a new section 4.1.2. detailing when a company should be added to the label field.

    * Worked out something more people can agree upon re: items with multiple cat#s on them: http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/155184#2036002 ...Examples include:
    ** multiple cat#s for a single item intended to be sold under different #s in different territories (such as on many WEA releases in UK+Europe), regardless of whether corresponding, single-cat# items exist for each territory (all cat#s should be entered)
    ** extra cat#s added by distributors (via stickers, stamps, custom printing, or not mentioned on the release at all) - interesting cases include EFA, Caroline, etc., which call into question where to draw the line between distributor and licensee label (unless they are the sole cat#, they shouldn't be entered at this time)
    ** cat#s in typographic artwork, including those possibly accidentally left on an item by a licensee label - Try not to enter the 'old' catalog number.

    * Explained matrix numbers and their use as catalog numbers - made a new section.

    * Added a section about cat#/distribution codes with a link to the wiki page

    * Added the situation of Jamaican matrix numbers - http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/131564 (as in: DSR... are not catalog numbers but matrix numbers, please add them to notes blahblah) - linked to the post

    * Typo fixed: The "by released" needs to be replaced with "for release" in this sentence: "DIDX - Recordings pressed by DADC by released on non-Sony-affiliated record labels."

    * Explained the correct action for capitalization differences in catalog numbers. Added "Any variation in the catalog number can be entered as an additional number, including capitalization variations. However, the variations are only required to be entered if they would produce a new shadow catalog number."

    * Updated the label guidelines for distributors and the like - http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/189577#2386654 - made a new section regarding distributors

    * Removed "If the name may reflect changes to the label or company, different periods in time, or other such information, the names should not be combined" from http://www.discogs.com/help/submission-guidelines-release-label-catalog.html#Label_Names - this guideline is misleading and doesn't follow usual practice for the database - the history of a label, brand, or company can be added to the profile, and trying to split the same entity up into distinct time/structure based parts would be confusing for most users.

    * Added to 'Not On Label' section - "4.4.3. Artists that use the definite article 'The' should be listed in their natural order. For example the group "The Police" (using artist naming convention on Discogs of "Police, The") should not be listed as their artist name on Discogs of "Not On Label (Police, The Self-released)" but should follow the correct labeling rule for all labels, "Not On Label (The Police Self-released)"."

    5. Format

    * MP3 - Updated to make clear that Qty should be used for # of audio files http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/181431#2354113 - this update happened a while ago, listed here for emphasis

    * CD versus CDr - Pressed CDs often ''are'' visibly different in their data-containing portions, so removed the following blanket statement from the guidelines: ''An additional method to discern if the media you hold is a pressed CD or CDr is to look for a difference in the hues. A CDr that is burnt will display a ring where the data has been written. The ring starts from the inner hub, and will be a lighter shade than the rest of the CDr. The less that has been burned, or the shorter length of the stored audio, the smaller the burnt circle will be. You cannot tell how much data is stored on a pressed CD by this same method, as the whole underside will be a consistent color.''

    * CD versus CDr - Added a few lines (and a picture) to explain that commercial, consumer-audio CDRs (a.k.a. audio-CDRs) can very well include a barcode and etched numbers, but no IFPI codes. A serial number, however, is (seemingly without exception) always printed in a "dot-matrix"-like format on the inner ring.

    * From http://www.discogs.com/help/submission-guidelines-release-format.html#LP - removed "Technically, LP describes the use of micro-grooves on the record to lengthen the playing time." - not factual - see http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/186018?page=2#2356891

    * Clarified what an item is regarding the Free text Field. http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/187404 - "Unless any release that has the same title and format on the artist or label pages is also released using different packaging (for example a slimline jewel case and a digipack), package description should not be added to the free text field, but remain in the Release Notes."

    * 'stamped' changed to 'stamped, stickered, or similarly altered' at http://www.discogs.com/help/submission-guidelines-release-format.html#White_Labels_Promos_And_Test_Pressings - http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/187668#2368535 - "Retail releases with stamped, stickered, or similarly altered covers and/or CDs are to be considered the same as retail, as should retail releases with cut spines, marked or cut barcodes, or other such defacement."

    * Made file based unique release requirements clear - "The same recording released on different formats needs to be put into the database as separate items (including different data rates for file based releases)."

    9. Credits

    * Written a new guideline regarding how to credit complex / duplicated / subset credits, for example (Artist & Artist's "The Group" Remix) - discussion at http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/159392 - "In cases where there are 'duplicate' credits for aliases of an artist, enter all the aliases. For example, for a track named "'Artist & Artist's 'The Group' Remix", enter remix credits for both "Artist & Artist" and "The Group"."

    * Allowed mastering engineers 'signatures' in the run out grooves to count as normal credits - http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/182698 - "Mastering credits etched into the run out groove can be entered as normal credits."

    * Made it clear which ways credits can be entered http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/183289 - "If multiple credits are chosen to be entered, they must be separated by a comma and space, for example: Written-By, Vocals, Guitar, Keyboards. "

    * Updated the 'Written By' guidelines http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/177293#2321429 - updated as per Helix's "Retain use of formatted Written By " idea.

    * How to add presently unlisted credits http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/190147

    10. Release Notes

    * Removed - "Forbidden content for the release notes... Excessive cosmetic text formatting using HTML codes. Using italics or underline when referring to album titles is fine, but attempting to mimic every aspect of typography on the packaging is overkill" - relevant guideline is at http://www.discogs.com/help/submission-guidelines-general-rules.html#Formatting_Unicode_HTML

    * Mentioned liner notes not being acceptable http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/189764#2388912

    11. Tracklisting (inc all tracklisting field rules)

    * Updated the default Multiple CDs etc to use the dash:

    1-01
    1-02…
    2-01
    2-02…

    * Added to position - "For the sake of clarity, please use A, B etc for side identification, in place of 1, 2, One, Two, or Side One, Side Two. " http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/183428

    * Rewording - "More creative track positions such as "Up, Down" (for example) are acceptable if under fifteen characters long, and were listed like that on the release, however, please don't use redundant prefixes and suffixes, such as: * Prefixing "CD1." in front of a release that only contains one CD * Prefixing with zeros or punctuation * Suffixing with punctuation:" http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/192083#2418358

    * Entered the 'unwritten rule' - "If one or more track based main artists are entered, there should be a track based main artist filled out for all tracks, even if they are the same as the overall main artist on the release." http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/184834#2331091

    12. Images

    * Added - "Sleeves of the 12" generic label artwork type can be added to the releases it relates to, but the primary and most important images are the centre label information."

    14. Updating An Artist

    * Improved the Alias section http://www.discogs.com/help/submission-guidelines-updating-an-artist.html#Aliases link to ANV, and explained the difference.

    * Changed Forbidden content for an Artist profile - "Copy/pasted info from the internet, or any other copyrighted or credited material " to "Any copyrighted or credited material."

    Format List

    * Update some entries http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/175340#2235352

    Updating Release Information Guidelines

    * Add in new page about how to go about updating releases - http://www.discogs.com/help/submission-guidelines-updating-a-release.html

    Voting Guidelines

    * Added a list of requirements for a 'Complete And Correct' vote http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/184162#2323870
  • _jules over 7 years ago


    nik

    * Clarified Artist Naming Conventions, "The" rule - "For artist names beginning with "The", "The Artist" should be entered as "Artist, The". For example: "RZA, The". This rule only applies to the English definite article. "The" should always go at the end of the name, even with a compound artist name (that is, a single name made up of two or more names "Bird And The Bee, The"). Artist names with "The" in the middle of the name should not have the "The" moved, for example "Ian Dury And The Blockheads"."

    would have been cool to also have something covering Artist, The (2) or is it Artist (2), The ..?

    see: Virgins (2), The / The Virgins (2) for instance
  • _jules over 7 years ago

    nik
    * Added to position - "For the sake of clarity, please use A, B etc for side identification, in place of 1, 2, One, Two, or Side One, Side Two. "


    would be nice to cover other languages too: Face A / Face B - Lado 1 / Lado 2 - I know it should be common sense when Side One / Side Two is not allowed but unfortunately there are also a bunch of users here whose common sense is "if guidelines explicitely forbids Side One but says nothing about Face A then it means Face A is allowed"
  • hafler3o over 7 years ago

    nik
    11. Tracklisting (inc all tracklisting field rules)

    * Updated the default Multiple CDs etc to use the dash:

    1-01
    1-02…
    2-01
    2-02…


    this intent seems to be negated by the following point in the rsg which then re-allows the dot(.)

    quote
    "11.2.7. On multi-disc or multi-format releases, any position numbering scheme which differentiates each item is acceptable - CD1-1, 1.01, CD1.01, DVD-1.1 etc."

    DVD-1.1? that looks wrong! Is DVD_1.1 then allowable? Or DVD_1-1?

    Logically "just use the dash for separate tracks and the dot for sub-tracks and don't mix" was the intent I thought.
  • punxtr over 7 years ago

    ^Agreed.
  • hmvh over 7 years ago

    Rats. Seems like I missed some of the discussions during my sabbatical.
    nik
    CD versus CDr - Added a few lines (and a picture) to explain that commercial, consumer-audio CDRs...

    Picture doesn't show.
    nik
    14. Updating An Artist

    I'd like one important key word to be added under "17.2.2. Recommended content for an Artist profile: "
    Neutral. A neutral biography of the artist.

    That'll cover the hype or self-pimping nonsense that tends to get added by artists themselves or sloppy copy-paste jobs from their all-important myspace/facebook profiles.

    nik
    Removed ""Lower case joins are accepted only for the abbreviations "vs." and "w/"

    So "vs." (lowercase) is still allowed, or not?
  • mawiles over 7 years ago

    hmvh
    So "vs." (lowercase) is still allowed, or not?


    General capitalization guidelines:
    1.2.2 b. Abbreviations, acronyms, and initialisms should follow what is written on the release, including any punctuation if used.

    The artist joiner guideline contradicted the general guideline, hence it was dropped.
  • Staff 2.6k

    nik over 7 years ago

    nik

    Removed ""Lower case joins are accepted only for the abbreviations "vs." and "w/"


    hmvh
    So "vs." (lowercase) is still allowed, or not?


    mawiles
    General capitalization guidelines:
    1.2.2 b. Abbreviations, acronyms, and initialisms should follow what is written on the release, including any punctuation if used.

    The artist joiner guideline contradicted the general guideline, hence it was dropped.


    Right, the guideline was superseded by the "Abbreviations, acronyms, and initialisms" section http://www.discogs.com/help/submission-guidelines-general-rules.html#Capitalization

    So, "vs." (lowercase) is still allowed if printed on the release like that.
  • Staff 2.6k

    nik over 7 years ago

    hafler3o
    this intent seems to be negated by the following point in the rsg which then re-allows the dot(.)

    quote
    "11.2.7. On multi-disc or multi-format releases, any position numbering scheme which differentiates each item is acceptable - CD1-1, 1.01, CD1.01, DVD-1.1 etc."

    DVD-1.1? that looks wrong! Is DVD_1.1 then allowable? Or DVD_1-1?


    The intent wasn't to outlaw the dot, but simply to reflect the more common usage.
  • Staff 2.6k

    nik over 7 years ago

    _jules
    would have been cool to also have something covering Artist, The (2) or is it Artist (2), The ..?

    see: Virgins (2), The / Virgins, The (2) for instance


    Yikes, I think we need to do something about that, I'm not even sure which is more logical way.

    _jules
    would be nice to cover other languages too: Face A / Face B - Lado 1 / Lado 2 - I know it should be common sense when Side One / Side Two is not allowed but unfortunately there are also a bunch of users here whose common sense is "if guidelines explicitely forbids Side One but says nothing about Face A then it means Face A is allowed"


    Ok, I have changed it to:

    11.2.13. For the sake of clarity, please use A, B etc for side identification, in place of 1, 2, One, Two, Side One, Side Two etc (in any language).
  • Staff 2.6k

    nik over 7 years ago

    hmvh
    Picture doesn't show.


    Fixed! Thanks.

    hmvh
    I'd like one important key word to be added under "17.2.2. Recommended content for an Artist profile: "
    Neutral. A neutral biography of the artist.

    That'll cover the hype or self-pimping nonsense that tends to get added by artists themselves or sloppy copy-paste jobs from their all-important myspace/facebook profiles.


    Done, good idea.
  • Ronaldvd over 7 years ago

    According to section 13.3.1, users which have a release in their collection or sales list will receive notifications of comments, but actually only the last contributor receives them. To the others, the only notifications that are sent are for changes, not comments as far as I'm aware.

    13.3.1. [...] Simply put your comment in the comment box, and hit the "Post Comment" button. All users with the release in their collection, releases contributed, or sales list, and their notification option set to "on", will receive an email or PM informing them a comment has been made.
  • LadyBlacktronika over 7 years ago

    2.7.1. When a main artist or track based main artist is credited on a release for the following, a credit must also be added into the credit section:

    Does this mean only for releases that are like So and So presents XYZ compilation or Naming a DJ as the main artist of a Mixed cd? Or does this include any main artist such as a Singer's album?

    Also any chance we can get notes and credits back above track listings? The credits and notes are usually more important then the names.

    That just irritates me to no end that I can't easily reference the notes and credits when looking at a release since they are now below the track listing. Makes no sense.
  • LadyBlacktronika over 7 years ago


    nik
    julesparis
    would have been cool to also have something covering Artist, The (2) or is it Artist (2), The ..?

    see: Virgins (2), The / Virgins, The (2) for instance

    Yikes, I think we need to do something about that, I'm not even sure which is more logical way.


    Oh yeah I forgot about that. That's a good point. Artist, The (2) makes more sense to me and looks cleaner.
  • marcelrecords over 7 years ago


    LadyBlacktronika
    Artist, The (2) makes more sense to me and looks cleaner.

    agree with that ^^
  • LadyBlacktronika over 7 years ago


    marcelrecords
    agree with that ^^


    Thanks Marcel.
  • Myriad over 7 years ago


    LadyBlacktronika
    Artist, The (2) makes more sense to me and looks cleaner.

    Also agree with this. It's also currently more common, so there's no point changing Artist (2), The the proper usage.
  • LadyBlacktronika over 7 years ago

    Might I also suggest changing "Eponymous Artists" to wording that is more commonly used and possibly less confusing to people who arn't English majors?
  • Dr.SultanAszazin over 7 years ago


    nik
    * Clarified Artist Naming Conventions, "The" rule - "For artist names beginning with "The", "The Artist" should be entered as "Artist, The". For example: "RZA, The". This rule only applies to the English definite article.


    That's rather annoying.

    Why only the English? This disturbs sorting for other languages...
    I think it's forgivable for someone who only speaks English, not to know when he should do it, but people who speak German, French, Dutch, Spanish, ... should have the right to correct this!

    Better give examples of what 'the' is in other Roman and German languages.
    French: Le, La, Les
    Dutch: het, de
    German: die, das, der (I think)
    ...
  • Staff 2.6k

    nik over 7 years ago

    Dr.SultanAszazin - we are at some point going to remove the "Artist, The" rule from Discogs, and run a script to change all the artists thus affected to "The Artist".

    This rule causes nothing but problems, and is not needed for a computer based system, where (if necessary) such rules can be written into the software.
  • Dr.SultanAszazin over 7 years ago


    nik
    we are at some point going to remove the "Artist, The" rule from Discogs, and run a script to change all the artists thus affected to "The Artist".

    This rule causes nothing but problems, and is not needed for a computer based system, where (if necessary) such rules can be written into the software.


    That will make things more easy.

    I can only agree to that!
  • Dr.SultanAszazin over 7 years ago

    Maybe these can be added somewhere to the guidelines:

    -Ethnic groups where individual members are unknown, shouldn't be credited as 'unknown artist' or 'various', but as the ethnic group. Unknown artist only should be used when there is no given identity at all. An non-specific identity (such as an ethnic group) should not be ignored.

    (example: Bali (4))
    (This to avoid Ethnic groups being thrown in the annoying bunch of unknown artists and get them indexed in a way libraries do for decades already)

    AND

    -Main artist field is not limited to performing credits: composers, field-recorders, or any credit given on the front cover and/or spine can be the main artist.
    (maybe add: for classical releases, orchestra, conductor, soloists & composer should be added if present on front cover!)

    typical example where such rules could have helped: http://www.discogs.com/history?release=1097174
  • Kergillian over 7 years ago


    Dr.SultanAszazin
    Maybe these can be added somewhere to the guidelines:

    -Ethnic groups where individual members are unknown, shouldn't be credited as 'unknown artist' or 'various', but as the ethnic group. Unknown artist only should be used when there is no given identity at all. An non-specific identity (such as an ethnic group) should not be ignored.

    (example: Bali (4))
    (This to avoid Ethnic groups being thrown in the annoying bunch of unknown artists and get them indexed in a way libraries do for decades already)


    It's already there - and your Bali groups are completely and totally wrong:

    RSG
    Crediting Non-Specific Groups

    2.10.1. If a group of people are credited that aren't specific (for example: tribes, nations etc), credit them as an artist, and place the following in the artist profile:

    "Discogs notice: This artist does not refer to a specific group of named individuals (such as a band or musical group) but rather defines the collective term for [details of group].

    Please use this artist name (or any language variation thereof, via an ANV) for the [group name]."

    2.10.2. The 'In Groups' function can be used if the non-specific group is a subset of a larger non-specific group, but specific artists and groups cannot be linked as part of a non-specific group


    1) If it's a generic tribe or group how can it have named members?!?!?

    2) A country or region cannot be a PAN. Bali is a place, not a people.

    3) There should not be ANVs in this scenario - each of those groups should be their own artist.

    Dr.SultanAszazin
    (maybe add: for classical releases, orchestra, conductor, soloists & composer should be added if present on front cover!)


    Only if they are presented as the main artist - simply being written on the cover is not enough to denote a main artist.

    Dr.SultanAszazin
    typical example where such rules could have helped: http://www.discogs.com/history?release=1097174


    You mean the release that you made a mess of...?
  • Dr.SultanAszazin over 7 years ago

    Bali (4) is an artist profile that represents the Balinese folklore musicians, it doesn't represent the country or region.
    (profile will get a better formulation and explanation, but thus far the images and video are clear enough there is a need for this artist profile)

    Bali, or Bushmen, or Pygmies or ... are all correct artist profiles. Discogs works with releases as starting base. Because of the tradition that exists in this kind of releases (especially old recordings): crediting the people by a region instead of by name, we cannot just use 'unknown artist' or even worse: 'various'. That would destroy the classification that is created by those releases. No reason to get rid of that...

    The ANV's of Bali (4) are not invalid: they are all variations of "unidentified Balinese folklore artist"

    Because of that guideline you quote above (probably some legacy from the times discogs was an electronic music catalog), there is no way folklore & fieldrecordingss can be grouped somewhere on discogs.
    Folklore exists out of tradition, there must be a way to have a profile for all those region-specific traditions. A tradition cannot be represented by an individual as it passes many generations.
    And this way makes the most sense to document these artists, doesn't make anything complicated at all and is completely logic as every music catalog does categorize it as such...
  • Kergillian over 7 years ago


    Dr.SultanAszazin
    Bali (4) is an artist profile that represents the Balinese folklore musicians, it doesn't represent the country or region.
    (profile will get a better formulation and explanation, but thus far the images and video are clear enough there is a need for this artist profile)


    'Bali' is a country name. You cannot simply create a fake profile with a fake name as a catchall for every traditional artist in an entire region!!!

    Dr.SultanAszazin
    Because of the tradition that exists in this kind of releases (especially old recordings): crediting the people by a region instead of by name, we cannot just use 'unknown artist' or even worse: 'various'. That would destroy the classification that is created by those releases. No reason to get rid of that...


    There is a specific RULE for handling this. As I quoted above. Please read it. And then re-read it. And then follow it.

    Dr.SultanAszazin
    The ANV's of Bali (4) are not invalid: they are all variations of "unidentified Balinese folklore artist"


    No, they are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT groups of unidentified Balinese artists. And you have haphazardly replaced Unknown Artist on releases with Bali (4) - which is a made-up non-existent artist that you elected to create and assign WITHOUT discussion, consensus or common sense!

    You even added an anonymous composer to this psuedo-artist, which should be listed under Anonymous!

    Please do not edit releases. Ever. The amount of harm you repeatedly do to this database is simply astounding...!

    Dr.SultanAszazin
    Because of that guideline you quote above (probably some legacy from the times discogs was an electronic music catalog), there is no way folklore & fieldrecordingss can be grouped somewhere on discogs.


    That guideline was created FOR folk releases and field recordings! It is specifically designed to give an artist page for distinct tribes and groups that have no specific name and have unknown artists within them.

    Dr.SultanAszazin
    Folklore exists out of tradition, there must be a way to have a profile for all those region-specific traditions. A tradition cannot be represented by an individual as it passes many generations.


    A tradition is not an artist. You cannot have an artist page for a 'tradition' - which is an abstract term to begin with.

    Again, and I implore you: just don't edit anything. You have no concept of the RSG and have no idea how this site works. And you repeatedly prove it with these half-cocked ideas that you decide on your own to implement without any rhyme or reason, without any discussion or consensus, and without respect to the RSG.
  • Dr.SultanAszazin over 7 years ago

    Dr.SultanAszazin edited over 7 years ago
    Well, I cannot agree with your point of view.

    All this 'unknow artist' stuff makes it impossible to create sufficient information on traditional artists (wich are artists).

    The Anonymous credit doesn't say anonymous: it says in a complex way it's an oral tradition (maybe written down at a certain moment) that can only be assigned to "Balinese traditional folklore"

    All of those unidentified folklore groups should have a page of their own to group the same traditions, as they are categorized on releases appearing, with images, information and video footage. (Indonesia - Bali is a common classification, you can go even further ofcourse, like Baka (3), but Bali (4) represents releases which explicit mention to have musicians from Bali without identifying them (as on many older records), they're also not identified as 'unknown'!!! So it makes no sense at all using 'unknown artist', better use no credit at all!!!

    And therefore I did a post in this forum which is about change the guideline to expand discogs possibilities.

    Maybe await for some more reaction on this? And see how things might grow or stay?
  • Dr.SultanAszazin over 7 years ago

    Ah, sorry maybe an answer on your questions might be polite...

    Kergillian
    If it's a generic tribe or group how can it have named members?!?!?

    the members are also of this group, but they appear on records with credits. They are members of the Bali Folklore music, but their records don't belong in Bali (4), but on their own artist page.

    This is linking...

    Kergillian
    2) A country or region cannot be a PAN. Bali is a place, not a people.

    Bali is used on records to refer to this group of tribes, I cannot change that. Unknown artist isn't used

    Kergillian
    3) There should not be ANVs in this scenario - each of those groups should be their own artist.

    That might have a point, although they are all anonymous credits.
    Gamelan is an Indonesian kind of orchestra, all music under bali (4) is gamelan music, if they refer to the same thing: they're ANV's.
    Alias might be an other option, but that seems strange to me.
    or am I missing something?
  • Dr.SultanAszazin over 7 years ago

    btw -> added the mandatory sentence to Bali (4).
    Good there's a standard sentence for these!
  • Kergillian over 7 years ago


    Dr.SultanAszazin
    All this 'unknow artist' stuff makes it impossible to create sufficient information on traditional artists (wich are artists).


    Again: 'Bali' is not an artist, it is a region. And a tradition is not an artist.

    If they are 'unknown', there is obviously no 'sufficient' information to create.

    Dr.SultanAszazin
    The Anonymous credit doesn't say anonymous: it says in a complex way it's an oral tradition (maybe written down at a certain moment) that can only be assigned to "Balinese traditional folklore"


    'Compositeur Balinais Anonyme'

    Which means: Anonymous Balinese Composer.

    Which in turn means it should be under Anonymous.

    Dr.SultanAszazin
    the members are also of this group, but they appear on records with credits. They are members of the Bali Folklore music, but their records don't belong in Bali (4), but on their own artist page.


    Once again: a group of unidentified or unknown artists CANNOT have members - because if it did it would not be unknown or unidentified!!

    Dr.SultanAszazin
    Bali is used on records to refer to this group of tribes, I cannot change that. Unknown artist isn't used


    No, it is used on the record to denote that it is music from Bali. If a record says 'Russia: Music From The Motherland' it is part of the title! It is not a bizarre catchall term for an artist!!

    Dr.SultanAszazin
    That might have a point, although they are all anonymous credits.
    Gamelan is an Indonesian kind of orchestra, all music under bali (4) is gamelan music, if they refer to the same thing: they're ANV's.
    Alias might be an other option, but that seems strange to me.
    or am I missing something?


    You're missing a lot.

    The Benny Goodman Orchestra and The Count Basie Orchestra are both orchestras - would you ANV them because of that??
  • Dr.SultanAszazin over 7 years ago

    I think you're missing a lot in fact.

    Again: I don't choose which name is used to refer to the Balinese Gamelan Tradition.
    But I know unknown artist doesn't make any sense if something is known about the artist.
    And I also know an artist page like Bali (4) does make a lot of sense.

    If there's something wrong with the PAN: do a suggestion.
  • Staff 2.6k

    nik over 7 years ago

    This has pulled this forum topic way off track, but anyway...

    First of all, this should have been discussed *before* doing mass edits to these releases;

    http://www.discogs.com/help/submission-guidelines-updating-a-release.html#updating_release_data

    13.1.2. If you want to do the same type of edit over many releases, post a message in the Adding & Updating forum stating your intentions. This will ensure your updates are acceptable before you do them, and may help you get votes faster. Link to the discussion on each of your edits, so other voters can read what is discussed.


    Further to this, Kergillians assessment is right, these edits are not correct.

    Due to this, I have removed you from voting, and put you on the CIP for the moment. I'd advise you to undo your edits please.

    This subject has been discussed previously (breifly) at http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/164054?save=1#2108570 (I think there was a larger thread as well on this topic, but I can't find it).

    A country name cannot be an artist. 'Bali' isn't an artist the same as 'Scotland' or 'Canada' isn't.

    When country names are used on the release, they are a title or part of the title, not the artist.

    Even releases such as "Music From Scotland" cannot be assumed to be Artist = "Scots", as there may well have been people of other places involved in the recording.

    The only extrapolation for this title would be (in the absence of other writing credits) that the music was Traditional Scottish, but this is tenuous unless stated on the release. It is entirely possible that someone could make a release called "Music From Scotland" that had specific composers and / or was not in the Scottish musical tradition.

    Another example. If the release says something like "The Scots People - Songs And Tunes" or some such, the guidelines would then allow artist name = 'Scots'.

    So, the Non-Specific Group artist name should only be used when it is directly refereed to on the release.

    Other linking should be done elsewhere, such as:

    Using traditional writing credits where appropriate - http://www.discogs.com/artist/Traditional?anv=Scottish+Traditional

    Using (as yet not fully created) appropriate musical styles for the release (for example, Pìobaireachd)
  • Dr.SultanAszazin over 7 years ago

    nik
    A country name cannot be an artist. 'Bali' isn't an artist the same as 'Scotland' or 'Canada' isn't.


    Well yea,
    Do you have a suggestion for a name?

    I hope you disagree we don't need to use 'unknown artist' where there is no artist credited as such.

    There are older (paper) documents on recordings like these, which have Bali, different parts of Java and a few more region names to represent the ethnic groups that play traditional music.

    Records use the same (sometimes: Balinese Gamelan, Roadside Gamelan (which is un unknown Gamelan in Bali at the side of the road, not a specific group name, or The Balinese Gamelan.

    Kergillian was very aggressive in reacting on this, as the page was a work in progress: you have to admit: all records under Bali (4) are grouped correctly: they have been credited as being the performers in some way, often just "Bali".

    I agree Bali (4) isn't the best PAN, but no one gives a better sugestion. If there is a better one: I'll change them all.

    RSG
    2.10.1. If a group of people are credited that aren't specific (for example: tribes, nations etc), credit them as an artist, and place the following in the artist profile:

    "Discogs notice: This artist does not refer to a specific group of named individuals (such as a band or musical group) but rather defines the collective term for [details of group].

    Please use this artist name (or any language variation thereof, via an ANV) for the [group name]."

    I followed this guideline.
    The only thing I did was wrong language use maybe (It seems it's not clear to many Bali refers to the ethnic group (an ethnic group is a group created by academics in order to talk about the cultural/artistic activities of a certain group of people, bound by the region they live in, often this groups is called the same as the region, so I learned during my studies in archeology...)

    If these edits aren't correct, tell me how it IS correct please.

    But they were even less correct before!
    Or do we have to delete all existing profiles of such ethnic groups?

    I understand the confusion, but Bali (4) is for the ethnic group, playing in this musical tradition.

    A pop group from bali shouldn't be in that profile.

    I can agree with the profile being imperfect.

    I'd like proposals on this.
    If the only thing one can say: this is incorrect blabla, without explaining how it should be.

    Well then no constructive discussion is possible.

    Kergillian says things like Anonymous Balinese Composer = Anonymous, while it is clearly that this is a way to express it's traditional Balinese

    Should it be Traditional Balinese (the PAN) maybe?

    I'd like suggestions on this, I just corrected made-up 'unknown artist'-credits to something better, in line with other profiles.

    It's not perfect, but once all records that are entitled to the Balinese traditional music are grouped, I have a starting point to tune it up to a fully correct profile.

    nik
    It is entirely possible that someone could make a release called "Music From Scotland" that had specific composers and / or was not in the Scottish musical tradition.


    No artist under Bali (4) btw has specific credits.

    Although there might be a main credit Bali (4) while a specific group is credited.
    Should the credited artist be bombed to main artist, even if not credited as such???

    nik
    Using traditional writing credits where appropriate - http://www.discogs.com/artist/...Scottish+Traditional


    Oh yea! Nice thanks.

    I'll add images and video footage of Scottish traditional music right away!!!

    Oh... they also appear here: http://www.discogs.com/artist/Traditional?anv=Traditional%2C+Okinawa%2C+Japan

    That's why this guideline sucks big time!!!
    that's what I'm trying to tell!
    That's why Kergillian should have made a new topic on my edits, and not reacting on the guideline proposal!

    The edits are something different than what I want to tell here: do you see the problem.

    Bali (4) has a decent profile, with footage and images, that's the whole point here I thought: documentation

    When I have access, I link to old book pages that use Region names to identify the music played. It's not my fault the Western tradition of making art an individual, personal creation while other parts of the world created art in a collective way.

    Please: proposals should always be accompagnied with votes/comments not approving an edit.

    Kergillian is really a pain in the ass as a voter. Very unfriendly, I have had questions to 'help' often for such voters: discogs really has a reputation of being unpolite to people trying to contribute in a constructive way. And no offense, but it wouldn't be the first time a literal interpretation of some guidelines creates problems in specific domains of released music.

    I'd do something about such unpoliteness, and being unhelpfull, only correcting others, but never returning for the correct vote... such things.
    maybe a VIP program?

  • Dr.SultanAszazin over 7 years ago

    Dr.SultanAszazin edited over 7 years ago
    ...complaining...
  • Dr.SultanAszazin over 7 years ago

    Off topic discussion to be continued at: http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/198668

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