• Staff 3.1k

    nik over 9 years ago

    We are planning to do the artist page reorganization in the very near future. You can see the current plan for the different categories we want to split the page into, at http://wiki.discogs.com/index.php/Dev-Artist_page-Reorg-2009

    This is not final, but it may be close to it.

    There are still some things to be fleshed out (the assumptions for releases without album / single etc tags, for example).

    We would welcome any criticism or ideas (radical or small), and please let us know any potential problems you forsee.

    You can reply in this thread, or make adjustments to the wiki page (please make your own page if you have a radically different idea), or indeed you can PM me with your thoughts. Thanks!
  • silverleaf over 9 years ago

    Fantastic. But an open call for input is even more so.
  • _jules over 9 years ago

    looks good.

    a couple things:
    1. we need a video section for the credits, separated from other Non-musical credits / ie, Film Producer and Film Director should have their own header in the credits list (Video, or something) and those credits should have their own section in the artist page - this is needed for artists such as: Jean-Baptiste Mondino / Johan Renck / Jonas Åkerlund and a few more

    2. i'd actually would like to see a video sub-section in the Releases section, for VHS / DVD etc. - either for all of them or for those of them that are not marked as singles etc. (DVD single) - this would make more sense to me than having them all lumped into Uncategorized.

    3. not liking the Vinyl 12" with 3 or less tracks gets listed in the singles section / Vinyl 12" with more than 3 tracks gets listed in the EP section assumed categories.
    From my experience the vast majority of 12"s that are EPs as per Discogs usual understanding, ie release calls itself one or other reliable sources do, are already marked as such, whereas the vast majority of 12" double pack remixes are not marked as singles - with that rule for assuming categories they would end up under the EP header, ending up with "broken" Master Releases on artists pages (with the 7" / 12" / CD single under Single and the 12" remixes pack randomly under EP).
    We need some consistency here, as per Discogs usual practice one should never assume what's an EP - this shouldn't be done for the artist page reorg' either.
    Not an EP: Pet Shop Boys And Dusty Springfield / Pet Shop Boys - What Have I Done To Deserve This? / Rent
    Not an EP: Pet Shop Boys - Yesterday, When I Was Mad
    Not an EP: Pet Shop Boys - Somewhere / To Step Aside (Remixed)
    etc. etc.

    This "assumed categorisation" should be scrapped IMO: EPs go under EP, the remaining 12" not marked as EP nor Album go under Single is good enough and will create less errors.
  • _jules over 9 years ago

    actually, I'm not even sure separate sections for EPs and singles are needed / viable / beneficial - we'd probably be better off with a meta category Singles & EPs ...

    see this rather simple artist page for instance: Krush
    with currently 3 releases listed
    the artist page reorg' would end up with 4 listings and a "broken" MR just because this 12" single ( Krush - House Arrest ) is rather randomly marked EP on its labels ( http://www.discogs.com/image/R-20906-1084225407.jpg )?
  • draxfan over 9 years ago

    draxfan edited over 9 years ago
    Could automatic statistics about releases and credits be added?

    Maybe list the top 3 or top 5 of most used credit roles, and the actual number for each of those top credits, like:

    3 - Guitar
    17 - Vocals
    5 - Written-By

    This should be broken down to single credit roles, instead of summing up all Instruments or Technical credits.

    And the min/max for the release dates for releases and above credits (preferrably excluding releases marked as Reissues, and possibly compilations/samplers)

    And top 3 or so for genres/styles where the artist appears, again with the actual number per genre/style.

    Also the number of releases in each of the already defined categories.
  • hmvh over 9 years ago

    Whoah! This is great news, I'll have to sit and study this in greater detail.

    Off the top of my head, the following:
    _jules
    1. we need a video section for the credits, separated from other Non-musical credits / ie, Film Producer and Film Director should have their own header in the credits list (Video, or something) and those credits should have their own section in the artist page - this is needed for artists such as: Jean-Baptiste Mondino / Johan Renck / Jonas Åkerlund and a few more

    Agreed. Similar should apply to other non-musical linked roles.
    _jules
    2. i'd actually would like to see a video sub-section in the Releases section, for VHS / DVD etc. - either for all of them or for those of them that are not marked as singles etc. (DVD single) - this would make more sense to me than having them all lumped into Uncategorized.

    Agreed.

    I'm not entirely sure I understand this "assumed release categorisation" either and share similar reservations. I'd have to dig into this a little deeper.

    Also: Does this mean that we will see an artist's releases based on "type" on release and NOT the chronological list we're used to, irrespective of format? If so, please ensure that this view remains available: I (and I'm sure many others also) want to see all releases of artist X, oldest to newest, and if the first one is a single, then show me the single first -- regardless of what format comes after.

    To this, I'm still after the "flat view" that was promised when MR came along.

    One more thing: Any chance of dedicated "date of birth" or "date of death" fields for artists? I'm thinking a little bit towards future web 2.0 usage here.
    nik
    Featuring & Presenting

    Not too sure if those deserve a "section" of their own. "Presenter" is mostly a promotional role, "featuring" a horribly maligned excuse for not knowing what the featuring person does. "Vocals [Featuring]" should belong to vocals, but that's buried within release credits, not the "main artist".
    Requires more brainstorming.
    draxfan
    Maybe list the top 3 or top 5 of most used credit roles, and the actual number for each of those top credits, like:

    3 - Guitar
    17 - Vocals
    5 - Written-By

    You mean a summary (count) of each role, appearing in a single line underneath the proper profile? If so, yes, I like the idea -- definitely a modding aid.
  • draxfan over 9 years ago

    hmvh
    You mean a summary (count) of each role, appearing in a single line underneath the proper profile? If so, yes, I like the idea -- definitely a modding aid.

    Yes, an automatic summary/statistic about the artist / artist page. Should be at the top of the artist profile, and displayed in the pop-up window for the artist when viewing a change submission.

    Maybe it could look like this for Carlton Cotterill:
    Active: 1992 to 2002 (0 releases, 51 credits)
    Credits: 7 Producer, 5 Engineer, 4 Programmed By (35 other credits)
    Genre/Styles: Electronic - 14 Euro House, 6 Garage House, 5 House


    Biggest task for the required programming is probably separating the individual credits in joint credits, i.e. splitting a credit like "Producer, Written-By", so both credit roles get counted properly. Similarly for the styles.
  • rassel over 9 years ago

    draxfan

    Active: 1992 to 2002 (0 releases, 51 credits)
    Credits: 7 Producer, 5 Engineer, 4 Programmed By (35 other credits)
    Genre/Styles: Electronic - 14 Euro House, 6 Garage House, 5 House


    Nice idea, had something similar in mind some time ago. But we should think of the fact there might be a bunch of credits from releases without votes/needs changes and so on. Not sure if it would be a good idea to count these credits also, as they might lead the subbers in a wrong direction.
  • loukash over 9 years ago

    draxfan
    Biggest task for the required programming is probably separating the individual credits in joint credits, i.e. splitting a credit like "Producer, Written-By", so both credit roles get counted properly

    As long as the submitter has sticked to the required joiners, i.e. "comma-whitespace", all you need to do is program them as a string, excluding those enclosed by [square brackets], and split the credits by that. No rocket science. (As far as I remember, FileMaker could do that 15 years ago…)
  • Staff 3.1k

    nik over 9 years ago

    _jules
    we need a video section for the credits, separated from other Non-musical credits / ie, Film Producer and Film Director should have their own header in the credits list (Video, or something) and those credits should have their own section in the artist page - this is needed for artists such as: Jean-Baptiste Mondino / Johan Renck / Jonas Åkerlund and a few more


    Ok, this is possible I think.

    _jules
    i'd actually would like to see a video sub-section in the Releases section, for VHS / DVD etc. - either for all of them or for those of them that are not marked as singles etc. (DVD single) - this would make more sense to me than having them all lumped into Uncategorized.


    A section like this would have to depend on the format, and that can sometimes be ambiguous. What would we do with items that are both video and normal audio?

    CDV
    DVD
    DVDr
    HD DVD
    HD DVDr
    Blu-ray
    Blu-ray-R
    Betamax
    VHS
    Video 2000
    Laserdisc
    SelectaVision
    UMD
    File
    Memory Stick
    Hybryd

    Plus all the description types for the above. Some formats are totally ambiguous (MPEG4, DVD-Data etc)

    It gets kinda complicated. Maybe we'd need a 'Video' tag, but still there are many releases that are both video and audio.

    hmvh
    Similar should apply to other non-musical linked roles.


    Non-Musical is there as a credit category already.

    _jules
    actually, I'm not even sure separate sections for EPs and singles are needed / viable / beneficial - we'd probably be better off with a meta category Singles & EPs

    _jules
    not liking the Vinyl 12" with 3 or less tracks gets listed in the singles section / Vinyl 12" with more than 3 tracks gets listed in the EP section assumed categories.


    Yes I was wondering about that as well. I have changed the wiki plan to bundle Singles and EPs. This may make the 'assumptions' easier as well. Anyone think that is a bad idea?

    draxfan
    Could automatic statistics about releases and credits be added?


    We'll have to see if that can be fitted into the programming side of things.

    hmvh
    I'm not entirely sure I understand this "assumed release categorisation" either and share similar reservations. I'd have to dig into this a little deeper.


    Yeh we have to look into this a bit deeper, but I think it is easier if it is only albums vs singles / EPs.

    hmvh
    Does this mean that we will see an artist's releases based on "type" on release and NOT the chronological list we're used to, irrespective of format? If so, please ensure that this view remains available: I (and I'm sure many others also) want to see all releases of artist X, oldest to newest, and if the first one is a single, then show me the single first -- regardless of what format comes after.

    To this, I'm still after the "flat view" that was promised when MR came along.


    That is right, you'll see an artist's releases based on these headings, and not via a chronological list.

    This and the MR flat view are possibilities, but it really depends of the weight of programming and server resources needed to implement them vs the number of users asking for the function.

    hmvh
    Not too sure if those deserve a "section" of their own. "Presenter" is mostly a promotional role, "featuring" a horribly maligned excuse for not knowing what the featuring person does. "Vocals [Featuring]" should belong to vocals, but that's buried within release credits, not the "main artist".


    I think they are OK to have as their own crediting category. The artist can still have a main artist credit and also a vocal or whatever credit - there is no special logic applied here.
  • Kergillian over 9 years ago


    nik
    It gets kinda complicated. Maybe we'd need a 'Video' tag, but still there are many releases that are both video and audio.


    Well, when this was discussed on the other thread, you had mentioned that releases that fall under multiple categories (ie: Album and Single) will default to the primary category (Album), so do the same for audio and video - releases that are both will default to audio.

    nik
    Yes I was wondering about that as well. I have changed the wiki plan to bundle Singles and EPs. This may make the 'assumptions' easier as well. Anyone think that is a bad idea?


    I think it's a far better idea.

    nik
    That is right, you'll see an artist's releases based on these headings, and not via a chronological list.


    The only issue I have with this idea is that often I like to see the singles under their respective albums.

    Will we perhaps be able to connect MRs for singles and EPs, maybe tagging the Album MR they are a part of...?
  • mirva over 9 years ago

    nik
    Yes I was wondering about that as well. I have changed the wiki plan to bundle Singles and EPs. This may make the 'assumptions' easier as well. Anyone think that is a bad idea?

    No, I think it's better now. :)
  • rassel over 9 years ago

    And please add an assumption (Assuming Categories) for file based releases too.
    I would treat them the same as CDs.
  • pastysurprise over 9 years ago

    "Tracks Appear On - for all appearances on other releases (NOTE - should this be split into the same categories as for main artist?)"
    Yes - I think these ought to be split just like main artist.

    Also, what about having little illustration icons to indicate the type of role? for Writer (treble clef), Vocalist (head with voice bubble, Producer (VU meters), etc... In general this could communicate a lot with a little. Same icon could show on artist page. To every credit role, an icon?
  • djindio over 9 years ago

    djindio edited over 9 years ago
    "Album (release is tagged as Album or Mini-Album)"
    "Singles & EPs (release is tagged as Single, Maxi-Single, or EP)"

    hmm, what of situations were a release was marketed as an EP in one country and a Mini-Album in another?

    i.e.:
    "E.P.": Scandal (4) - Scandal
    "Mini-LP": Scandal (4) - Scandal

    Assuming the 2nd entry is correct in assuming Mini-LP = Mini-Album of course.
  • 9228289 over 9 years ago

    I have a new suggestion:
    as it is on the "master release" we should be able to get a Tracklist of all different titles accoording to an artist.
    there may be a query with the result like:
    Title (And Version), Duration, (linked) on releases
    -
    Discogs is a database so this is possible,
    such a query would be the greatest possible innovation in allthewom atm.
  • SampleKween over 9 years ago

    I had made a suggestion or at least tried to on the Blog for Tabbed browsing on artist's page.
    For instance: ("|" indicates tab separation)

    All | Releases | Unofficial Releases | Ect. | Ect. | and so on |

    It would make browsing someone's page like say Janet Jackson, who has 30 Million subs on her page, much easier to browse.
  • Staff 3.1k

    nik over 9 years ago

    Kergillian
    when this was discussed on the other thread, you had mentioned that releases that fall under multiple categories (ie: Album and Single) will default to the primary category (Album), so do the same for audio and video - releases that are both will default to audio.


    We cannot tell from some releases whether they are audio or video though. Some formats are totally ambiguous (MPEG4, DVD-Data etc).

    Kergillian
    often I like to see the singles under their respective albums.

    Will we perhaps be able to connect MRs for singles and EPs, maybe tagging the Album MR they are a part of...?


    I don't see that happening in this round or being a priority. A flat view may be possible.

    pastysurprise
    what about having little illustration icons to indicate the type of role? for Writer (treble clef), Vocalist (head with voice bubble, Producer (VU meters), etc... In general this could communicate a lot with a little. Same icon could show on artist page. To every credit role, an icon?


    Sounds interesting! I have added an ideas / discussion points section to the wiki.

    djindio
    "Album (release is tagged as Album or Mini-Album)"
    "Singles & EPs (release is tagged as Single, Maxi-Single, or EP)"

    hmm, what of situations were a release was marketed as an EP in one country and a Mini-Album in another?

    i.e.:
    "E.P.": Scandal (4) - Scandal
    "Mini-LP": Scandal (4) - Scandal

    Assuming the 2nd entry is correct in assuming Mini-LP = Mini-Album of course.


    Master releases are only displayed in one category as well, using the same hierarchy (so if there are 2 release in a MR, an EP and a Mini-Album, then we use the Mini-Album tag, and list it in the album section).

    9228289
    we should be able to get a Tracklist of all different titles accoording to an artist.


    If I understand you correctly, I think that is outwith the scope of this update at this time. We also have to be careful we don't make things too complicated.

    SampleKween
    Tabbed browsing on artist's page.
    For instance: ("|" indicates tab separation)

    All | Releases | Unofficial Releases | Ect. | Ect. | and so on |

    It would make browsing someone's page like say Janet Jackson, who has 30 Million subs on her page, much easier to browse.


    This may well be the way it is implemented, the exact display method is still being formulated.
  • Staff 3.1k

    nik over 9 years ago

    Here is a simple idea for the categories, following on from the discussion here and the possible complexity and problems associated with trying to assume if a release is (for example) an album or not.

    'Singles, EPs, and Other' would be the bottom category, where everything that was not filtered out by previous categories ends up. This avoids making assumptions about if something is an album, single, etc, and places the emphasis on tagging the albums that are not tagged as such at the moment.

    We'd also introduce a new 'Video' tag for the ambiguous formats (only to be used if the release is only video).

    * DJ Mixes - IF Credited artist for 'DJ Mix' = credited Main Artist, then list in the artists DJ Mixes section)

    * Compilations - Tagged as Compilation

    * Album - Tagged with 'Album' or 'Mini-album' or 'LP'

    * Video - Tagged with 'Video', 'CDV', 'Betamax', 'VHS', 'Video 2000', 'Laserdisc', 'SelectaVision', 'VCD', 'SVCD', or 'DVD-Video'.

    * Singles, EPs, and Other - For all other releases
  • SampleKween over 9 years ago


    nik

    This may well be the way it is implemented, the exact display method is still being formulated.


    Ok great. Thanks for acknowledging the suggestion.

    I have one suggestion. Having releases in MRs is great but there should also be an option to view the page with out MRs. MR clumping can obscure releases. When u sort by date it goes by the first release in the MR, so if a release from 2009 is an MR with the main release from 1978 it is not visible accept in the MR.
  • KrissO over 9 years ago

    KrissO edited over 9 years ago
    Awesome! My mate was complaing about Discogs the other day, that for example on Armin van Buuren's page it was impossible to find what you were looking for, and I couldn't agree more.
    Good timing nik, this is a must need! :)
  • hermanito over 9 years ago

    KrissO
    on Armin van Buuren's page it was impossible to find what you were looking for


    Please keep it that way ;)
  • ForkMe over 9 years ago


    nik
    Yes I was wondering about that as well. I have changed the wiki plan to bundle Singles and EPs. This may make the 'assumptions' easier as well. Anyone think that is a bad idea?


    No, I think this is an excellent idea, whith so much debate about what constitutes a single, EP, maxi single etc, bundling them together is by far the best option.
  • KrissO over 9 years ago

    ForkMe
    Please keep it that way ;)


    What? :P
  • SampleKween over 9 years ago


    nik
    Yes I was wondering about that as well. I have changed the wiki plan to bundle Singles and EPs. This may make the 'assumptions' easier as well. Anyone think that is a bad idea?


    _jules
    not liking the Vinyl 12" with 3 or less tracks gets listed in the singles section / Vinyl 12" with more than 3 tracks gets listed in the EP section assumed categories.


    My opinion is its pretty commonly thought that a release with 3 to 5 unique tracks (not remixes of the same track) is an EP. Yet we can only list it as such if its titled EP.

    Likewise it is generally thought that a release with 3 or more tracks, consisting of remixes of the same song is a Maxi-single and like EPs you can only name it that if the label says that.

    I really think that guideline needs to be adjusted. Just like LP Albums, I've never seen one LP Album that says LP Album on it.

    When records, LPs, EPs and the like started there was no Discogs and no Discogs guidelines. They didn't make titles and labels with the idea that the future would create a database such as this.

    I think that for the DB a common guideline can be created to deem a release an EP or Maxi without it being emblazoned on the release itself.
  • KrissO over 9 years ago

    As above
  • Staff 3.1k

    nik over 9 years ago

    SampleKween
    Having releases in MRs is great but there should also be an option to view the page with out MRs.


    This would certainly be a good additional feature, it was discussed when we were planning the MR function.

    At the moment, we are really trying to get the core features we want to see rolled out, so some 'would be nice' things may get left out till a later date.

    SampleKween
    a common guideline can be created to deem a release an EP or Maxi without it being emblazoned on the release itself.


    This has been discussed previously in some serious depth, including regional and historic variations, and a user was even planning to build a utility that would tell us the likelihood of a certain release being a single / maxi etc. You can do a forum search to dig out past discussions.

    In any case, a catch all simple rule for this is not likely - sticking to facts is better and easier for the most part.
  • Kergillian over 9 years ago


    SampleKween

    My opinion is its pretty commonly thought that a release with 3 to 5 unique tracks (not remixes of the same track) is an EP. Yet we can only list it as such if its titled EP.


    I have a LOT of 3- and 4-track singles without remixes...many of which have '12" single' or 'maxi-single' written directly on them...
  • SampleKween over 9 years ago


    nik
    This would certainly be a good additional feature, it was discussed when we were planning the MR function.

    At the moment, we are really trying to get the core features we want to see rolled out, so some 'would be nice' things may get left out till a later date.

    Great. I'd like to see that implemented.
    nik
    LadyBlacktronika
    a common guideline can be created to deem a release an EP or Maxi without it being emblazoned on the release itself.

    This has been discussed previously in some serious depth, including regional and historic variations, and a user was even planning to build a utility that would tell us the likelihood of a certain release being a single / maxi etc. You can do a forum search to dig out past discussions.

    In any case, a catch all simple rule for this is not likely - sticking to facts is better and easier for the most part.


    Alright. Just a suggestion. For myself its not an issue really. I just know that many people have a common idea of what an EP or Maxi-single is with out the release actually calling it that.

    The issue is really more an issue with the MRs now. Often times none of the releases have any distiguishers such as album or Single. It can end up confusing when looking at the artist's page and there are 2 MRs with the same title. You don't know which is a single and which is an album.

    God the whole thing is a big ball of wax i guess. LOL.
  • SampleKween over 9 years ago


    Kergillian
    I have a LOT of 3- and 4-track singles without remixes...many of which have '12" single' or 'maxi-single' written directly on them...


    In that case then you would list it as its been marketed. Its pretty much a moot point. Looks like the guidelines will remain the same in regards to EPs and Maxi-single or mini-albums.
  • _jules over 9 years ago

    nik
    * DJ Mixes - IF Credited artist for 'DJ Mix' = credited Main Artist, then list in the artists DJ Mixes section)

    * Compilations - Tagged as Compilation

    * Album - Tagged with 'Album' or 'Mini-album' or 'LP'

    * Video - Tagged with 'Video', 'CDV', 'Betamax', 'VHS', 'Video 2000', 'Laserdisc', 'SelectaVision', 'VCD', 'SVCD', or 'DVD-Video'.

    * Singles, EPs, and Other - For all other releases


    we still need an Uncategorized section though, even if it's only meant as a transition one - I still have a bunch of CDs in my collection that haven't been updated since the introduction of the Album format tag and that are thus not marked as such: they shouldn't be mixed up with Singles and EPs - they'd be better off under Uncategorized so that we can spot them and they get the chance to be updated
    see Adam Goldstone - Lower East Side Stories for instance

    also, I still have concerns regarding this new artist page org' and MRs

    staying with the Adam Goldstone example, since the current MR ( Adam Goldstone - Lower East Side Stories ) contains 2 versions marked as Album or LP and one that's not currently marked as such - does it mean that the new artist page will "break" that MR ?

    as a side note, the perspective of this new artist page layout would be a nice opportunity to re-index all existing entries, as you know when Compilation and Mixed became listed as part of the format in listings (artist / labels pages / collection / wantlist views etc.) it was only done for newly added and then updated releases / when I view my collection there is still a bunch of releases appearing as just CD when they are actually listed as CD, Compilation, Mixed but haven't been updated recently ...

    see Various - Klubyssimo - Le Son Du Klub - House Gay Club Nice_French Riviera for instance, listed as 2 CD, Mixed, Compilation on release page but appearing as 2 CD on label page Musique Moderne and all other DB views (credited artists pages / collec etc.)

    thanks
  • DakotaThrice over 9 years ago

    Would it be possible to code the pages so we open and close sections (like we can currently open and close master releases).

    Some artist pages are ridiculously long and this would make it much easier to find things. For example I was trying to create some master releases for Giorgio Moroder and scrolling back up and down the page to find the section I was upto started getting rather bothersome
  • SampleKween over 9 years ago


    _jules
    see Adam Goldstone - Lower East Side Stories for instance


    Looks like an album to me. How is it not an Album?
  • SampleKween over 9 years ago


    DakotaThrice
    Some artist pages are ridiculously long and this would make it much easier to find things. For example I was trying to create some master releases for Giorgio Moroder and scrolling back up and down the page to find the section I was upto started getting rather bothersome


    I think they are going to address that. I suggested Tabbed Artists pages. Nik said he thought that was a good idea. Also an option to view with and with out MR groupings.

    Side note in the US at least MR is short for Mentally Retarded. LOL.
  • _jules over 9 years ago

    SampleKween
    Looks like an album to me. How is it not an Album?

    no one said it's not an album - it's just not currently marked as one since the page hasn't been touched since Album is available as a format tag (once upon a time, CD albums were listed as CD and CD singles / maxis as CD5) - besides this is just a random example from the first page of my collection, there still existing vast, not-often visited parts of the database with loads of CD Albums just listed as CDs is the issue here

    my concern is:
    1. according to plans, if no Album / Compilation tag => file under Singles, Maxis, EPs & Shit
    ==> wrong: we need an uncategorized section for such releases that are, well, not categorized

    2. I fear the artist page revamp will end up splitting loads of existing Master Releases which doesn't seem very satisfaying, really - unless the revamp / new indexing includes in its coding an assumption that MRs are correct (which is discogs current practice btw) and shouldn't be split during the reorg' process, but I'm not sure how / if this can be programmed.
  • Kergillian over 9 years ago


    SampleKween
    In that case then you would list it as its been marketed. Its pretty much a moot point. Looks like the guidelines will remain the same in regards to EPs and Maxi-single or mini-albums.


    As they should - that's why I like putting singles and EPs together; it saves the headaches and argument from attempted determination of which is which...

    _jules
    still have a bunch of CDs in my collection that haven't been updated since the introduction of the Album format tag and that are thus not marked as such: they shouldn't be mixed up with Singles and EPs - they'd be better off under Uncategorized so that we can spot them and they get the chance to be updated


    Good point - because LP will default to album, but CDs (and other formats) should not...so an uncategorized section would be the best way to handle them for sure...
  • Kater_Murr over 9 years ago

    For the classical releases, it would be very practical if we could have a separation between conductors and composers. Of course Johann Sebastian Bach didn't record any of his works himself, but some contemporary composers (for instance Pierre Boulez) have plenty of releases as composers and plenty of releases where they conduct works by other composers.
  • Kergillian over 9 years ago


    _jules
    2. I fear the artist page revamp will end up splitting loads of existing Master Releases which doesn't seem very satisfaying, really - unless the revamp / new indexing includes in its coding an assumption that MRs are correct (which is discogs current practice btw) and shouldn't be split during the reorg' process, but I'm not sure how / if this can be programmed


    It won't. It will be set up to put it in the proper group based on the releases contained within. If there are multiple descriptors, then it will default to the higher one on the food chain (i.e.: one with both EP and Album within the MR will default to Album...)
  • Kergillian over 9 years ago

  • _jules over 9 years ago


    Kergillian
    If there are multiple descriptors, then it will default to the higher one on the food chain (i.e.: one with both EP and Album within the MR will default to Album...)

    what if there is now descriptor, though as in Adam Goldstone - Lower East Side Stories : will the 3 of them remain together in one MR under Albums or ?
  • Staff 3.1k

    nik over 9 years ago

    _jules
    what if there is now descriptor, though as in Adam Goldstone - Lower East Side Stories : will the 3 of them remain together in one MR under Albums or ?


    Yes, the 'top' format description from all contained releases is used, so if there are 20 releases in a MR, but only one uses 'Album', the whole lot go into the album section. Or, if there are 3 releases in a MR, one 'CD', one 'LP, Album', and one '2 x 12", Album, 7", Single', they will still go under only the album section.
  • Internaut over 9 years ago

    ^ Sounds great. Can't wait for this to be rolled out. Will the proposed new guidelines for compilations be implemented at the same time? As of now there are loads of standard albums with bonus-tracks tagged as compilation because 'it says so on the release'...
  • _jules over 9 years ago

    _jules edited over 9 years ago
    nik
    Yes, the 'top' format description from all contained releases is used, so if there are 20 releases in a MR, but only one uses 'Album', the whole lot go into the album section. Or, if there are 3 releases in a MR, one 'CD', one 'LP, Album', and one '2 x 12", Album, 7", Single', they will still go under only the album section.


    ok - great

    though I insist we need an uncategorized section to lump uncategorized items and the ever growing part of the entries that 's badly submitted format-wise (random example: http://www.discogs.com/releases_contributed?user=scorahic&sort=format%2Cdesc )

    (not entirely on topic but I'm not quite sure why there still isn't an autocheck for format disabling the Submit button when there's no size selected for Vinyl items ...)
  • Staff 3.1k

    nik over 9 years ago

    _jules
    I insist we need an uncategorized section to lump uncategorized items and the ever growing part of the entries that 's badly submitted format-wise (random example: http://www.discogs.com/release...c&sort=format%2Cdesc )

    (not entirely on topic but I'm not quite sure why there still isn't an autocheck for format disabling the Submit button when there's no size selected for Vinyl items ...)


    The error check system will be revised, possibly at around the same time as the artist page reorg, so we can prevent the issue you highlighted.

    If we don't put the uncategorized releases in with the EPs and singles, then we will need to go back to making assumptions for some formats regarding what categories they go in. Since we have put EPs and Singles together, this is less of an onerous task, and we can simply specify a number of tracks on specific formats that will make the release appear in one or the other category. This will not be perfect, but it should resolve 95% of cases, the rest of which can be resolved by further investigation leading to updating tags.

    ===============================
    Categorizing Releases

    The following ruleset filters from top to bottom. If a release or MR fits into one section, we place it there and don't go further down the list;

    * Video - Tagged with Video, CDV, Betamax, VHS, Video 2000, Laserdisc, SelectaVision, VCD, SVCD, or DVD-Video.

    * DJ Mixes - IF Credited artist for DJ Mix = credited Main Artist, then list in the artists DJ Mixes section.

    * Compilations - Tagged as Compilation

    * Album - Tagged with Album, Mini-album, or LP. Also include CD, CDr, 8-Track Cartridge, or Cassette, with 7 or more tracks

    * Singles & EPs - For items tagged Single, Maxi-Single, EP, Vinyl, Flexi-disc, Acetate, Lathe Cut, Mini, or Minimax. Also include CD, CDr, 8-Track Cartridge, or Cassette, with 6 or less tracks

    * Uncategorized - For any release that doesn't fit into any of the above classifications.

    Shellac and Cylinders shouldn't get 'assumed' because they predate many of these tags (possably Shellac with 2 or more discs could be assumed to be albums though?).

    DVDs, UMDs, file based releases, and all the other formats are harder to assume, and so should be left alone.

    New Tags

    From the above system, we need two new tags:

    * Video - For anything that is wholly a visual release, for example DVDs or MPEG4s.

    * Uncategorized - Used to force releases into the Uncategorized section, for rare situations that require this
    ==========================
  • hmvh over 9 years ago

    nik
    This would certainly be a good additional feature, it was discussed when we were planning the MR function.


    SampleKween
    All | Releases | Unofficial Releases | Ect. | Ect. | and so on |

    Tabs? Hmmm... nice. Me likes. Me likes plenty.

    Perhaps something like

    * All (the "flat view" I/others want)
    * Chronological (sorted by release date, irrespective of format -- pretty much as it is now, honouring MRs)
    * the remaining categories, as suggested above
    * "uncategorised".

    The "default view" should be user-definable, if server resources allow. Have those been considered?

    nik
    * Compilations - Tagged as Compilation

    How would we deal with "compilation albums", where both tags are used? Which takes presedence? My choice would be "compilation".

    (Please, no arguments about "can only be one or the other" here).

    wiki
    Many releases are not tagged as 'Album', 'Single' etc, due to our reasonably strict guidelines for data entry. However, for this new artist page display, we should make assumptions regarding the right category a release fits into in order to provide a tidy and logical display, and avoid anyone updating tags unnecessarily.

    This reeks of hypocrisy of the highest order.

    I would much rather have users update tags instead of the system making assumptions based on criteria that is already contentious. I, personally, happen to share SampleKween's definitions of EP, Maxi... etc. -- but the system does not because it tries to apply a "one size fits all" rule and, like the First Letter Uppercase rule, it's something we've got to live with.

    Therefore: No "tag", no grouping.

    If nothing else, that'll get users to fill in the blanks and make an effort to move a release OUT of the "uncategorised" batch.

    I stand by my years-old philosophy: No valid update is "unnecessary". EVER.

    The way 'ogs is going (at various levels, including the current strings of positive development), in a year or two every single entry in the db will be anything but correct. And that is not necessarily bad.

    Things will get a lot worse around here before it gets better.

    Kater_Murr
    but some contemporary composers (for instance Pierre Boulez) have plenty of releases as composers and plenty of releases where they conduct works by other composers.

    Very valid request. If I understand the plans correctly, composers (writers, arrangers et al) will get grouped seperately from conductors and band leaders.
  • pastysurprise over 9 years ago

    nik
    Singles & EPs - For items tagged Single, Maxi-Single, EP, Vinyl, Flexi-disc, Acetate, Lathe Cut, Mini, or Minimax. Also include CD, CDr, 8-Track Cartridge, or Cassette, with 6 or less tracks

    A lot of small label tapes and CDrs have sides listing only one long track. If there was a double check for track lengths it would be better.
    nik
    Video - Tagged with Video, CDV, Betamax, VHS, Video 2000, Laserdisc, SelectaVision, VCD, SVCD, or DVD-Video.

    Where would a 2 disc set with a CD and a DVD end up? What if it's enhanced with just one video track? I'd like to see a release show up in "Video" if it contains one or more videos, and also appear under whatever other categories are relevant.

    One other request: am I the only one who would find it useful to be able to sort by the unique discogs release numbers [r#######]?
    (ordered age of submissions).
  • SampleKween over 9 years ago


    _jules
    no one said it's not an album - it's just not currently marked as one since the page hasn't been touched since Album is available as a format tag (once upon a time, CD albums were listed as CD and CD singles / maxis as CD5) - besides this is just a random example from the first page of my collection, there still existing vast, not-often visited parts of the database with loads of CD Albums just listed as CDs is the issue here

    my concern is:
    1. according to plans, if no Album / Compilation tag => file under Singles, Maxis, EPs & Shit
    ==> wrong: we need an uncategorized section for such releases that are, well, not categorized


    Ok got you
  • Staff 3.1k

    nik over 9 years ago

    nik edited over 9 years ago
    pastysurprise
    Where would a 2 disc set with a CD and a DVD end up? What if it's enhanced with just one video track? I'd like to see a release show up in "Video" if it contains one or more videos, and also appear under whatever other categories are relevant.


    The 'releases' sections are devised so that a release only appears in *one* of the categories. Think of it like this - you have different shelves for your collection, one for albums, one for EPs and Singles, and one for Videos. Which shelf would you put your example on? Since this is an audio database, we should tend toward cataloging the audio first, so the video shelf would only have the 'pure' videos.

    However, your question did make me rethink where the video category comes in the heirarchy, and also I think we would need to add another sorting method to allow pure videos to trickle down to the right category, so:

    * DJ Mixes - IF Credited artist for DJ Mix = credited Main Artist, then list in the artists DJ Mixes section. Must not tagged with Video or Uncategorized.

    * Compilations - Tagged as Compilation. Must not tagged with Video or Uncategorized.

    * Albums - Tagged with Album, Mini-album, or LP. Also include Vinyl, Flexi-disc, Acetate, Lathe Cut, Mini, Minimax, CD, CDr, 8-Track Cartridge, Cassette, or File with 7 or more tracks. Must not tagged with Single, Maxi-Single, EP, Video, or Uncategorized.

    * Singles & EPs - For items tagged Single, Maxi-Single, EP. Also include Vinyl, Flexi-disc, Acetate, Lathe Cut, Mini, Minimax, CD, CDr, 8-Track Cartridge, Cassette, or File with 6 or less tracks. Must not tagged with Video or Uncategorized.

    * Videos - Tagged with Video, CDV, Betamax, VHS, Video 2000, Laserdisc, SelectaVision, VCD, SVCD, or DVD-Video. Must not tagged with Uncategorized.

    * Uncategorized - For any release that doesn't fit into any of the above classifications.

    pastysurprise
    A lot of small label tapes and CDrs have sides listing only one long track. If there was a double check for track lengths it would be better.


    What do you feel such examples should be listed under? Can you give any examples? Thanks!

    hmvh
    How would we deal with "compilation albums", where both tags are used? Which takes presedence? My choice would be "compilation".


    Following the proposed hierarchy from top to bottom, the 'Compilations' would all go into the 'Compilations' category, no matter if they are also Albums, Singles, EPs, LPs, CDs etc etc

    hmvh
    If I understand the plans correctly, composers (writers, arrangers et al) will get grouped seperately from conductors and band leaders.


    That is correct:

    Credits:

    * Vocal
    * Instruments
    * Writing and Arrangement
    * Featuring & Presenting
    * Conducting & Leading
    * Production
    * Remix
    * DJ Mix
    * Technical
    * Non-Musical

    nik
    Many releases are not tagged as 'Album', 'Single' etc, due to our reasonably strict guidelines for data entry. However, for this new artist page display, we should make assumptions regarding the right category a release fits into in order to provide a tidy and logical display, and avoid anyone updating tags unnecessarily.


    hmvh
    This reeks of hypocrisy of the highest order.

    I would much rather have users update tags instead of the system making assumptions based on criteria that is already contentious.

    Therefore: No "tag", no grouping.


    I don't agree, and I don't think there is any hypocrisy. The data entry is strict, which is reasonable given that we want factual information, not conjecture.

    However, we can choose to display the information in a pragmatic manner, such that for the majority of releases, and for the convenience of the majority of users, items will appear in the most expected category.

    I can only envision a small minority of cases where this may cause a problem, but weighed up against the much larger majority, I think it is acceptable for display purposes. And we can put methods in place such that we can solve any problem that comes about quite easily.

    For sure, we should update the data with facts at the earliest convenience, but using overly strict sorting into display categories will force users to tag many releases with non-factual data, and this is something I believe we can easily avoid by following the proposed method.

    As a fundamental example, there is no point in tens or hundreds of thousands of releases that are only tagged '12"' ending up in the Uncategorized section, I believe this would be deeply unintuitive for most users.
  • pastysurprise over 9 years ago

    A typical example is Banned Production. I checked the first 50 titles of that label and found that 1 in 7 had one title per side, though full length tapes.
    Here's a quick list with examples from just a few labels sprinkled all over. There are thousands of these in the database.
    http://www.discogs.com/lists/one-track-per-side/5858
    This is typical for the independent cassette market, and also similar among CDrs where the same traditions are followed.
    Some regular labels that still feature tapes, use this scheme for the majority of their single-artist releases:
    Hanson Records
    Because of this, I think requiring a "Single" tag for tapes would make the most sense. (BTW: There's still confusion on where to place the cassette length information: FTF or notes)
  • Staff 3.1k

    nik over 9 years ago

    pastysurprise
    I think requiring a "Single" tag for tapes would make the most sense.


    Sorry, does that mean you think these tapes should be in the "Singles & EPs" section? In this case, that is where they will go as it stands. If not, and you believe they are albums, then they should really be tagged as albums.
  • pastysurprise over 9 years ago

    nik
    does that mean you think these tapes should be in the "Singles & EPs" section

    Apologies. I think all tapes without singles tags should default to the albums category. Only tapes marked as singles should go into the singles & EPs. If this isn't acceptable, then they ought to go in the uncategorized section pending further "album" tagging.
  • Staff 3.1k

    nik over 9 years ago

    These look like they fit in more in the singles / EPs section to me though - Abstract Belief - Proud Flesh - That doesn't strike me as an album. Was it released as an album?
  • pastysurprise over 9 years ago

    nik
    That doesn't strike me as an album

    I hear that. None of the independent tape releases are albums in the traditional sense. So there's a good question of whether they should be considered albums at all. But it's an aesthetic slippery slope. Is an album simply defined by it's length of, say 15 minutes per side, and by also containing original material? If so, then these should be tagged as albums. The salient features of these types of tapes is that they're 30 to 60 minutes in length and contain one long recording per side, or groups of many unnamed unlisted tracks denoted simply as A or B.

    But it's the artists' intentions that these are albums, I think. Some releases in this genre are later pressed onto vinyl or CD.
    I'd be willing to start updating tape releases to add "album" tags. There are loads of them, though. I've submitted several tapes myself, and I have never attached "album" to them myself before, unless I felt they were highly produced tapes. But I don't think they are related to singles/EPs at all.
    nik
    Was it released as an album?

    No, not to my knowledge. Some notable tapes do make it onto CD or LP (CDr reissues are common for selected titles), but the huge majority do not. A typical occurrence of one of these tapes will not fit into any master release.

    It would be really great to see an artist page showing "loose" tapes grouped together below main releases. I'm not as comfortable to see vinyl and tapes mixed. It's harder to wade through. I'd actually prefer to see a default order to the formats (CD, vinyl (albums), vinyl (singles) tapes, files) even within the master release groupings.

    Tapes, CDrs and files all seem to defy the logic of an album/non-album classification scheme.
  • strummin over 9 years ago

    Is http://www.discogs.com/disbugs/1163 going to be part of the
    artist page reorganization?
  • pastysurprise over 9 years ago

    Here's an idea to completely change the page format!
    Near the top of the artist page there should be a section named "Credit Roles." Any role that the artist has done should be listed there as a link. Hitting that link will show all the releases where the artist has that credit role.
    For Mick Jagger as producer, click the "Producer" role; for singer , click the "singer" role.

    This could be a basic menu to choose what gets displayed on the page. "All," "Writing/Arrangement", etc...

    Why have a huge list to scroll through if it's not desired?
  • Dr.SultanAszazin over 9 years ago


    strummin
    Here's an idea to completely change the page format!
    Near the top of the artist page there should be a section named "Credit Roles." Any role that the artist has should will be listed there as a link. Hitting that link will show all the releases where the artist has that credit role.
    For Mick Jagger as producer, click the "Producer" role; for singer , click the "singer" role.

    This could be a basic menu to choose what gets displayed on the page. "All," "Writing/Arrangement", etc...

    Why have a huge list to scroll through if it's not desired?

    Great idea!
  • princerave777 over 9 years ago

    princerave777 edited over 9 years ago
    _jules
    3. not liking the Vinyl 12" with 3 or less tracks gets listed in the singles section / Vinyl 12" with more than 3 tracks gets listed in the EP section assumed categories.
    From my experience the vast majority of 12"s that are EPs as per Discogs usual understanding, ie release calls itself one or other reliable sources do, are already marked as such, whereas the vast majority of 12" double pack remixes are not marked as singles - with that rule for assuming categories they would end up under the EP header, ending up with "broken" Master Releases on artists pages (with the 7" / 12" / CD single under Single and the 12" remixes pack randomly under EP).
    We need some consistency here, as per Discogs usual practice one should never assume what's an EP - this shouldn't be done for the artist page reorg' either.
    Not an EP: Pet Shop Boys

    With

    Dusty Springfield - What Have I Done To Deserve This? / Rent
    Not an EP: Pet Shop Boys - Yesterday, When I Was Mad
    Not an EP: Pet Shop Boys - Somewhere / To Step Aside (Remixed)
    etc. etc.

    This "assumed categorisation" should be scrapped IMO: EPs go under EP, the remaining 12" not marked as EP nor Album go under Single is good enough and will create less errors.


    I agree...if it's not listed on the release as "E.P." then lets not assume & make it one. IMO the way it is, is fine. But that's just my take on the whole Single/Maxi-Single/E.P. drama...lol
  • KrissO over 9 years ago

    Any ETA? I just noticed a couple of minutes downtime now... unless it was just me :p
  • stak over 9 years ago

    Looking forward what this will look like... Preview images or pages of this update/process would be cool.

    Would adding an option to view all aliases on artist page be considered with this update?
  • pastysurprise over 9 years ago

    Another request:
    Instead of the mouse-over, artist pop-up info presently accessible on history pages, why not have a dedicated "short-text-line summary key words" on the artist page for this feature to draw text from?
    Here's why. People often update biographical information without consideration for the first few words. See this recent case where I had made a short one liner, which was later updated by the actual artist to show actual biographical info. Unfortunately, the mouse-over now shows ambiguous information, because also there is another Jim Anderson (4) engineer, so that confusion will continue to exist. I hate to reedit the artist's own post.
    http://www.discogs.com/history?artist=Jim+Anderson#latest
    Jim Anderson (4) has often been mistaken for being the same guy.
  • Staff 3.1k

    nik over 9 years ago

    pastysurprise
    why not have a dedicated "short-text-line summary key words" on the artist page for this feature to draw text from?


    The more fields, the more effort to keep them right, and the more problems and complexity.

    The guidelines already point out that http://www.discogs.com/help/submission-guidelines-updating-an-artist.html#Profile "The first sentence should be a short overview of the artist for quick identification". There is also a bit too much hype / redundancy there for me. You shouldn't feel scared to edit the profile, for example:

    ============
    Jazz and acoustic recording engineer and producer, based in New York. He has been the recipient of numerous awards and nominations in the recording industry, his recordings having received nine Grammy awards and 25 Grammy nominations, his radio recordings have received two George Foster Peabody Awards, and there have been two Emmy nominations for television programs.
    =============-
  • pastysurprise over 9 years ago

    nik
    You shouldn't feel scared to edit the profile,

    OK! It's not like this is someone's Myspace page. Thanks.
  • All-Vinyl-Experience over 9 years ago

    This may have cropped up here already and relates mainly to artist issues but would link direct from the artists main page....
    Having trawled through my Booker T stuff it was very puzzling that I couldn't see ALL issues by the group under one total heading, just under each individual typo that the graphic artists decided to use over the years. I'm happy to have all the differing types, but could we have a "see all releases" under one "Master" name button?
  • punxtr over 9 years ago


    All-Vinyl-Experience
    This may have cropped up here already and relates mainly to artist issues but would link direct from the artists main page....
    Having trawled through my Booker T stuff it was very puzzling that I couldn't see ALL issues by the group under one total heading, just under each individual typo that the graphic artists decided to use over the years. I'm happy to have all the differing types, but could we have a "see all releases" under one "Master" name button?


    This already exists. Look at the page again and you might see the 'View All' button this time.
  • pastysurprise over 9 years ago

    All-Vinyl-Experience
    I couldn't see ALL issues by the group under one total heading

    Maybe A-V-E means that aliases can't be group viewed with ANVs too.
    http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/204413
    I think there's a possible case for improving the artist page to show releases by various aliases intermixed with ANV cases. Presently one has to jump pages to see the various Captain Beefheart releases.
  • _jules over 9 years ago

    nik
    artist page reorganization in the very near future / posted 4 months ago

    is this still planned?
  • KrissO over 9 years ago

    *waiting eagerly*
  • Staff 3.1k

    nik over 9 years ago

    Yes still planned, but it has been delayed somewhat. Everyone is very keen to see this rolled out, so we just have to hold tight. I'll let you know of any developments.
  • _jules over 9 years ago

    ok - thanks

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