• WeedMusic over 8 years ago

    WeedMusic edited over 8 years ago
    As a jazz fanatic I believe it is ESSENTIAL information to include "Microgroove" or "Deep Groove" to listings of original jazz pressings. Where would one suggest this Identifier be placed in notes or "bar-code and OTHER identifiers"

    Deep/Microgroove indicates the record was manufactured aprox pre 1966.

    Occasionally I run into a later era deep groove label, but not very often.

    Do we all agree that deep/micro groove is a essential piece of information and that it adds to a submission?

    I bring this up because one of Discogs most active editors asked another user to remove this information - which is just plain silly.

  • rassel over 8 years ago

    I'm not familiar with jazz, but with microgrooves.
    What I don't know are Deep Groove or even Deep Groove labels. What's this?
  • WeedMusic over 8 years ago

    It is just the groove under the label from the stamper. Older stamper production created a 'groove' on the label. Later stampers did not use this groove.

    It generallly can be used as proof for earlier pressings.

    Typically older microgroove records are cut louder then recent pressings. Many of these older microgroove records also happen to have the 'deep groove' on the label.
  • loukash over 8 years ago

    WeedMusic
    include "Microgroove" or "Deep Groove" to listings

    Format free text field?
    After all, it is a physical attribute.
    For instance, some time ago we've agreed that "Dynaflex" is a format suitable for FTF inclusion.
  • marcelrecords over 8 years ago

    loukash
    Format free text field?

    Yes, if this discerns the pressing from a later one.
  • Staff 3.1k

    nik over 8 years ago

    WeedMusic
    It is just the groove under the label from the stamper. Older stamper production created a 'groove' on the label. Later stampers did not use this groove.

    It generallly can be used as proof for earlier pressings.


    So 'Deep Groove' is a terminology for the label area of a record, specifically, a circular indentation in the label?

    Having a quick look at a few records, I can see a sharp indentation in an old 60s record, but I can see other types of indentation in other records, including recent ones. Presumably, this is a function of the pressing plant, so therefore would be hard to tie down to a specific date as presumably the pressing plants changes their indentations over a period of time. It is interesting, but I think it needs further research and citations. I am also not sure about the 'grove' terminology for this, as that already applies to the audio track on a vinyl record, I think 'indentation' is more useful.

    WeedMusic
    Typically older microgroove records are cut louder then recent pressings. Many of these older microgroove records also happen to have the 'deep groove' on the label.


    'Microgroove' is the term for any 33rpm record since the format was invented in '48. It is usually better to describe the cut - 'loud cut', 'deep cut' etc. There are some images at http://www.discogs.com/help/submission-guidelines-release-format.html#LP_v_12

    WeedMusic
    I bring this up because one of Discogs most active editors asked another user to remove this information - which is just plain silly.


    Can you link to where the issue came up? maybe you were putting the info in the wrong place, or maybe it was a little confusing?
  • gboe over 8 years ago

    gboe edited over 8 years ago
    As a jazz collector too, I find there are certain aspects to especially jazz records that causes special concern.

    It's true that information on labels are generally more important in jazz records than most other genres for determining the release version age and number. Given that Discogs still only has a very little part of the full jazz catalogue submitted, better tools for this could be added to the submitting features. Label is at least equally important as as barcodes, rights societies and other information categories already given specific fields in the submitting form. Many submissions have no details on this important subject. That goes for jazz especially - but for all genres in general. Wouldn't you like to be able to quickly find out if a submissios is a green WB label or a "Palm Tree" one - If a Columbia release is a 6-eye or a 2-eye? Todays options - Free field or notes - are too loose for this important matter.

    Each label has it's own era-characteristics, but Discogs could help strengthen the contained info on this matter be fascilitating a page with standards for naming of these label-types, like the "Palm Tree", "6-eye", The Blue Notes variations etc.

    Two other problems with the jazz genre is the guideline rule on collaborative PAN's are quite impossible to operate on a genre where everybody sits in with everybody in endless combinations. Combining people in collaborations makes just as many rights as wrongs in this genre.

    The third jazz specific problem is, that one should be restrictive using the "album" tag for LP's as many really aren't. If they at the same time have short running time and few tracks - which many jazz LP's have - they will be sorted out to the miscellaneous category.
  • loukash over 8 years ago

    gboe
    the guideline rule on collaboratice PAN's are quite impossible to operate on a genre where everybody sits in with everybody in endless combinations

    That's why I've requested this "disclaimer" to be added to § 2.6.2. during the last round of guidelines update:
    individual cases should be considered on their own merits

    This should leave enough room for discussions even with the Most Fundamentalist Guidelines Followers On A Holy Mission.
  • marcelrecords over 8 years ago

    ''deep groove'' is commonly used among jazz collectors.
    examples:
    http://jazzcollector.com/blue-note/blue-note-deep-groove-all-you-need-to-know/
    http://parisjazzcorner.com/en/dis_liste.php?rech=avancee&page=1&LabNom=Prestige&LANGUE=uk
    http://cgi.ebay.com/MODERN-JAZZ-QUARTET-CONCORDE-ORIG-DEEP-GROOVE-PRESTIGE-/220717121531
    It can make the difference between a $1000 and a $20 record:
    http://jazzcollector.com/blue-note/sonnys-crib-no-deep-groove-at-what-price/
    Records with ''deep groove'' and without should have their own entry in Disgogs IMHO.
    At the moment the free text field seems the most advantageous location for mentioning this.
  • gboe over 8 years ago


    marcelrecords
    Records with ''deep groove'' and without should have their own entry in Disgogs IMHO

    Amen to that. In a database with - it seems to me - credits for any african percussion instrument used by more than two people - a better tool for label-naming could be relevant.
  • WeedMusic over 8 years ago

    I see "microgroove" on many older jazz record labels, so it is confusing. But the "Deep Groove" is really what I am referring to.

    Love gboe's comments. I totally agree with his points.

  • Staff 3.1k

    nik over 8 years ago

    Thanks for the info folks.

    WeedMusic
    I see "microgroove" on many older jazz record labels, so it is confusing.


    On the labels themselves? This is just them declaring the new format. See, for example, http://www.vinyl-record-collectors.net/history-of-vinyl11-part10.htm

    WeedMusic
    "Deep Groove" is really what I am referring to.


    Cool.

    marcelrecords
    ''deep groove'' is commonly used among jazz collectors.


    It is a shame they used that terminology. "Sharp indent" is probably better, but I guess 'deep groove' is in common use now?

    I take it this is what we are discussing - http://wiki.discogs.com/index.php/Deep_Groove - the sharp indentation in the label about 2/3rds of the way from its centre?
  • Staff 3.1k

    nik over 8 years ago

    gboe
    It's true that information on labels are generally more important in jazz records than most other genres for determining the release version age and number.


    To be honest, I'm not sure that is true. I don't think Jazz can be singled out from this, and I'm sure all other genres where there is an interest (for example, blues, classical, rock) have the same requirements for identifying unique releases.

    gboe
    better tools for this could be added to the submitting features. Label is at least equally important as as barcodes, rights societies and other information categories already given specific fields in the submitting form. Many submissions have no details on this important subject. That goes for jazz especially - but for all genres in general. Wouldn't you like to be able to quickly find out if a submissios is a green WB label or a "Palm Tree" one - If a Columbia release is a 6-eye or a 2-eye? Todays options - Free field or notes - are too loose for this important matter.

    Each label has it's own era-characteristics, but Discogs could help strengthen the contained info on this matter be fascilitating a page with standards for naming of these label-types, like the "Palm Tree", "6-eye", The Blue Notes variations etc.


    I am not sure of a really satousfactory way to manage this. For example, I can think of us creating sub-labels (series?) for each label variation, but that is an extra burden on submitters, and is really just a hack.

    Many labels changed their label artwork etc over time.

    I can't think of a satisfactory way to catalog this except to include images of the labels - this is surely the most direct way. Having thumbnails in the Master Releases would help lost IMHO, but the centre labels would have to be the primary image for this to work. Hmmm....

    gboe
    the guideline rule on collaborative PAN's are quite impossible to operate on a genre where everybody sits in with everybody in endless combinations. Combining people in collaborations makes just as many rights as wrongs in this genre.


    If in doubt, don't make the collaboration. IMHO collaborations should be used less and less now.

    gboe
    one should be restrictive using the "album" tag for LP's as many really aren't. If they at the same time have short running time and few tracks - which many jazz LP's have - they will be sorted out to the miscellaneous category.


    Is this a submitter problem (people adding 'Album' without a citation?).
  • loukash over 8 years ago

    nik
    If in doubt, don't make the collaboration. IMHO collaborations should be used less and less now.

    Quote bookmarked!

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