• disco-funk over 4 years ago

    Hi all

    Now that we can link credits with "Executive-Producer", I think it would be great to create a new artist page for "Joe Cayre/Stan Cayre/Ken Cayre" (in fact several users have already begun the process of doing this). Formerly this was not done, as the 3 Cayre brothers always seem to be credited on releases as Executive Producers (mainly on the Salsoul label) - so there was never any page created automatically before, as Executive Producer was unlinked.

    However when creating the combined artist page for the brothers against the release B-H-Y - B-H-Y, loukash pointed out guideline 2.6.2:

    2.6.2. Main Artists who commonly collaborate together should be listed as one artist. Examples: "Ed Rush & Optical", "Dom & Roland" (it's really one person), "Giovanni & Mosler" and "Olga Jozef". 'Common collaboration' is defined as the artists collaborating on around three or more different releases, excluding remix EPs and any credit apart from a main artist credit (individual cases should be considered on their own merits). For example, never create or credit a collaborative artist for writing credits (see 2.6.4.)

    So I'm opening this forum topic to get a consensus on this and "consider this individual case on its own merits". I believe that a joint artist page for "Joe Cayre/Stan Cayre/Ken Cayre" would probably end up being used on over 100 releases.
  • brunorepublic over 4 years ago

    +1
  • disco-funk over 4 years ago

    bump de bump yo boodie
  • Internaut over 4 years ago

    I don' see any good reason for joining them, and its against the guidelines
  • disco-funk over 4 years ago

    Internaut
    I don' see any good reason for joining them


    They collaborated together on hundreds of releases

    Internaut
    and its against the guidelines


    The guidelines say "individual cases should be considered on their own merits"
  • Internaut over 4 years ago

    Thats refering to main artists, not anything else.
  • disco-funk over 4 years ago

    Internaut
    Thats refering to main artists, not anything else.


    No it's not. "Individual cases should be considered on their own merits" is referring to anything other than "remix EPs and any credit apart from a main artist credit"
  • disco-funk over 4 years ago

    I'm not gonna sweat it though... we can split them up again if there's a consensus :)

    But personally I have found the newly created joint credit for "Tom Moulton & José Rodriguez" absolutely invaluable, and I visit it pretty much every day. If we were to decide to keep "Joe Cayre/Stan Cayre/Ken Cayre" I would certainly use that page very regularly also.
  • Staff 2.6k

    nik over 4 years ago

    I'm conceptually not really into joined artists like this. What is the reason to have them all together? What do you find useful that couldn't be found on the individual artist page?
  • Internaut over 4 years ago

    And why should we create new combined 'artists' for such collaborations when we are not doing it for songwriters?
  • disco-funk over 4 years ago

    nik
    What is the reason to have them all together?


    Same reason that Lennon-McCartney is together.

    nik
    What do you find useful that couldn't be found on the individual artist page?


    I can see all releases where the artists collaborated more easily.
  • WilhelmT over 4 years ago

    For me the Lennon-McCartney example is already weak.
    Lennon and McCartney wanted to obscure the fact that some songs were actually not written together, but still wanted it to appear as a cooperation, i.e. like they both had written it - not they were 'a band'.
    With that in mind it makes a lot of sense to both give them the credit and split the names.

    If people really want to appear as a group they'll make a name for the group, e.g. a band name. In any other case individuals want to be explicitly identified. And in my opinion we should always split in such cases.

    disco-funk
    I can see all releases where the artists collaborated more easily.

    This is a display problem, and should not have an influence how data is added to the DB. It is really not unthinkable to make a function that easily shows all collaborations of a certain artist.
  • MaximusMCX over 4 years ago


    nik
    I'm conceptually not really into joined artists like this. What is the reason to have them all together?


    Maybe better to take a decision. Separate them all or allow discofunk to create the joined PAN! Why? Because they are credited together on the majority of the releases.
  • MaximusMCX over 4 years ago

    +1 gor the joined credit, maybe it's nicer without the slashes, something like:

    Joe Cayre, Stan Cayre, Ken Cayre
  • uzumaki over 4 years ago

    +1 the joined credit, maybe it's best as on hundreds of releases like:
    Joe Cayre, Stan Cayre, Ken Cayre
  • disco-funk over 4 years ago

    thanks for all your input so far guys. I love discogs.
  • gone4sure over 4 years ago

    I think it's obvious that the Cayre Brothers have to be credited together.
    They have founded the Salsoul Records.
    Like, if we decide to seperate them, then we should seperate:
    - Barry Gibb, Maurice Gibb, Robbin Gibb
    - Holland, Dozier, Holland
    erm...
    - Lennon, McCartney?

    So totally common sense +1: Keep Cayres together!
    (Though I totally agree with Maximus: they should be written with comas. I hate that rude, "violent" slashes.)
  • gone4sure over 4 years ago

    And talkin' about the Cayre Brothers:
    Some more artists should be credited jointly like...
    Jay Ellis, Meco Monardo, Tony Bongiovi...
    But, i guess this is another topic...
  • Internaut over 4 years ago

    gone4sure
    I think it's obvious that the Cayre Brothers have to be credited together.


    Why? It's not like they are Simon & Garfunkle or anything.

    gone4sure
    Like, if we decide to seperate them, then we should separate:
    erm...
    - Lennon, McCartney?


    We probably would if the database was built from scratch, as the guidelines says: "For example, never create or credit a collaborative artist for writing credits".

    Why should we join executive producers, and not songwriters?

    If we start joining executive producers we would open up a big can of worms. The majority of entries on Edward Perry would have to be moved to new "artists" like:
    -Edward Perry / Cecile Kelly
    -Edward Perry / Joanna Gamble
    -Edward Perry / Simon Perry

    So if I want to see what releases Edward Perry was executive producer on, I would have to jump around on X various "artist" entries. For what good?
  • MaximusMCX over 4 years ago


    Internaut
    Why should we join executive producers, and not songwriters?


    Many songwriters have joined credits. A joined credit is only desirable when they normally worked together.

    The role can never be the reason to join or not to join.

    If Edward Perry worked together with many different artists, obviously you'll not join this artist.
  • Internaut over 4 years ago

    Guideline 2.6.2. is a discussion of artists, not executive producers, designers or tea-boys. It shouldn't even be relevant in this discussion.

    MaximusMCX
    Many songwriters have joined credits.


    Those are legacy "artists". See guideline 2.6.4.
  • MaximusMCX over 4 years ago

    In that case you have some work to do, please split

    -Barry Gibb, Maurice Gibb, Robbin Gibb
    - Holland, Dozier, Holland
    erm...
    - Lennon, McCartney?

    what are you still doing here? ;)
  • Internaut over 4 years ago


    MaximusMCX
    In that case you have some work to do, please split


    I prefer to follow the guidelines:

    "2.6.4. Some collaborative artists have already been created and used solely on writing or production credits. Please continue to use them, please do not attempt to split these unless there has been extensive agreement from other users in the forums"
  • Mr.Mystery over 4 years ago


    gone4sure
    I think it's obvious that the Cayre Brothers have to be credited together.

    Your argument isn't very convincing.
  • MaximusMCX over 4 years ago

    that's impossible to work with... very confusing for every new comer... inconsequent to say the least!

    and might i add a pointer to nik to professionalize his organization

    When the RSG is changed you should inform voters by an e-mail and tell them exactly what has been changed.

    Thanks, i'll be on my way now... to do what is really important... working on the database.
  • gone4sure over 4 years ago

    "Your argument isn't very convincing."

    Can you please count the credits that each one of
    - Joe Cayre
    - Stan Cayre
    - Ken Cayre
    ...have SEPERATELY and then count the credits that they have the three of them TOGETHER?
    That should give an answer

    If a team of artists (performers, producers, songwriters... whatever) THINK OF THEMSELVES as a team, why should you seperate them?
    Isn't that contrary to THEIR self-definition?
  • MaximusMCX over 4 years ago

    ^^^ he knows his stuff ;)
  • disco-funk over 4 years ago

    gone4sure
    Can you please count the credits that each one of
    - Joe Cayre
    - Stan Cayre
    - Ken Cayre
    ...have SEPERATELY and then count the credits that they have the three of them TOGETHER?
    That should give an answer

    If a team of artists (performers, producers, songwriters... whatever) THINK OF THEMSELVES as a team, why should you seperate them?
    Isn't that contrary to THEIR self-definition?


    Absolutely. I can barely find any releases at all where they are credited separately!
  • Mop66 over 4 years ago


    Internaut
    I prefer to follow the guidelines:

    "2.6.4. Some collaborative artists have already been created and used solely on writing or production credits. Please continue to use them, please do not attempt to split these unless there has been extensive agreement from other users in the forums"

    +1
    It has been decided some months (or even longer?) ago not to create those groups anymore and I do not see an immediate reason to start it again.
  • gone4sure over 4 years ago

    I guess it's time for Nik to decide on this
    There are soooo different notions of "common sense" here that Nik would have to decide about it.

    Really, i can't find a simple clue about seperating credits for a team of three brothers that NEVER credited themselves each one by his own name.

    Then, we would have to seperate all the others as well, starting from Holland - Dozier - Holland...
  • MaximusMCX over 4 years ago

    I fully agree with gone4sure... possibly management proceeds with tact..

    In the proces they discovered it's maybe better to enter all the artist separately but with those really big artists they're afraid for what will happen. They know music is emotion and splitting Lennon-McCartney could possibly hurt a lot of users. So they proceed with tact and implement 2.6.4. with which they try to proceed on 2 tracks.

    Really ... nothing more than a management thingy .... i don't like it at all but will accept whatever they decide. I don't like the unclarity of it. It makes no sense. I can only understand it with what i've written above.
  • disco-funk over 4 years ago

    Mop66
    and I do not see an immediate reason to start it again


    They are never credited separately!
  • Mop66 over 4 years ago


    disco-funk
    They are never credited separately!

    That's no reason. If you list them separately they are still together in the submission.
  • gone4sure over 4 years ago

    Nik, please put an end to this.
    We are going in circles.

    Or let's vote for this.
  • uzumaki over 4 years ago

    Mop66
    That's no reason. If you list them separately they are still together in the submission.

    Of course it's a reason, they are an entity, a profile would be written about the group, not the individuals.
  • disco-funk over 4 years ago

    Looks like the majority are in favour of a joint entry
  • MaximusMCX over 4 years ago

    Trying to find a reason why

    Mop66
    Internaut

    are against joining the 3 brothers. Looking at their collection they seem to be Rockers. They couldn't care less about our music. Would they even know that Salsoul Records is more or less the pinnacle of what disco music has to offer? Maybe, maybe not, anyway, it's obvious that

    brunorepublic
    disco-funk
    uzumaki
    gone4sure
    and yes, Max too

    are disco specialists and they Cayre, they Joe Cayre, Stan Cayre AND Ken Cayre!
    Yep, seems the disco specialists have a majority, i hope it helps!
  • Staff 2.6k

    nik over 4 years ago

    Ok folks, thanks for the discussion.

    There has already been extensive discussion on the merits of joining vs the merits of separating. For all credits, keeping divisible elements separate is the course of action that won the discussion. I am sure a forum search would dig up the relevant posts. This is also the intent of the guidelines, which I have made a small amendment to to make this clearer.

    I do understand the wish to be able to see all releases with artist X and Y collaborated on. This should be a relatively easy function to build for the database, when we have time to devote to doing that. Once that is done, the possibility of splitting all the current grandfathered joined credits such as Lennon-Mccartney will probably be considered.

    So, in this case, please keep these artists separate. Thanks!
  • Mop66 over 4 years ago


    MaximusMCX
    they seem to be Rockers.

    Gosh, since when has this something to do with the kind of music you are listenting to. Collaborations exist across all genres.
  • MaximusMCX over 4 years ago

    Mop66
    Gosh, since when has this something to do with the kind of music you are listenting to.


    It has to do with caring and loving!

    Well, there you have it! A bit disappointing... anyway, now we know the future course of action. No merging anymore. We can even start separating the "smaller" artists. At least learned something thanks to this discussion. Cheers!
  • Mop66 over 4 years ago


    MaximusMCX
    It has to do with caring and loving!

    What a ridiculous and smug statement that rock listeners (which Internaut is only partially anyway) would not love and care about the music, the releases, the artists or anything like that. Come to your senses, haven't heard something absurd for some time.
  • MaximusMCX over 4 years ago


    It was not my intention to offend you... if i did ... i'm sorry!
  • disco-funk over 4 years ago

    And thus another seething cauldron of debate comes to a conclusion. Thanks for all your input guys, see you in another forum soon ;)
  • Mop66 over 4 years ago


    MaximusMCX
    if i did ... i'm sorry!

    Ok, accepted.
  • ccj over 4 years ago

    Yeah, after reading the many threads on this (including this one), users have to be open minded about the merits of BOTH methods (joined vs. un-joined).

    They both have their pros and cons, but these discussions focused on the following points **longterm**.
    (Note: "longterm" means how the database should ideally work in the future, not how it works today – hence legacy issues are being covered by 2.6.4, for now).

    The main ideals are:
    1) We shouldn't be hung-up about 'famous' main artists vs. smaller artists; they should all be treated the same.
    This means both the Lennon-McCartney's AND the Cayre bros (or even smaller artists) should be treated equally the same *regardless* of their role, or whether they worked with many teams throughout their careers (eg. Edward Perry, above).

    2) Artists should be separate entities as much as possible on their main artist pages.
    This means the future coding options for functionalities (some we haven't even conceived yet) are more open.

    3) In additional to the separate artist pages, a different page option should be instigated across all these "worked together" artists, where a new page will be able to show them grouped together (say, by ticking a box on their separate artist pages to display all releases together on a page of some kind, or perhaps some other method so a text profile of the grouping can be added).

    There are some other minor points, but these are the main principles. This functionality may not happen quickly (after all, this is Discogs™ – sorry had to get that in!), but eventually at some undisclosed time in the future (being optimistic, I'm sure we all hope this means multiple months rather than multiple years, but we'll see) it will appear.
  • gone4sure over 4 years ago

    Ok, i agree with the bridges that ccj builts between the two different ideas here.
    This must be a really good solution for all the teams of the music industry that CONSIDERED themselves a team.

    But i need specifications, in general: the "seperate" rule applies to
    - Ashford & Simpson as well?
    - Dalton & Dubarri?
    - Perry & Sanlin?

    All the recording duos, with their names comprised by their names?

    That rule applies for Simon & Garfunkel?

    I mean do we keep on with joint credits for recording artists and seperate artists for all the other roles (composers, producers, designers etc.)?

    Please be clear with it.

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